FTF Hound Disregard Cache Listing

[+coupleocachers]

In one of our caches that was published a few days ago.

Well in the listing it says DO NOT PARK NEAR GZ or WILL BE TICKETED.. There is listed coords on the cache page on where to park. A second cache parked at the listed coords and started walking towards the cache, then noticed that the FTF hound was parked on the side of the road and was signing the cache and then left before the second cacher arrived at ground zero.

So who is actually hte First to Find on this cache?

The persno who disregarded the rules or the person who actually walked to the cache?

We've been debating about emailing the FTFer and telling him he doesn't get FTF because he parked ILLEGALLY for the cache. He has done this for the past few caches on the trail. Its a bike trail only. and parked on the side of the road.

What do you think should be done?

[+baloo&bd]

In one of our caches that was published a few days ago.

Well in the listing it says DO NOT PARK NEAR GZ or WILL BE TICKETED.. There is listed coords on the cache page on where to park. A second cache parked at the listed coords and started walking towards the cache, then noticed that the FTF hound was parked on the side of the road and was signing the cache and then left before the second cacher arrived at ground zero.

So who is actually hte First to Find on this cache?

The persno who disregarded the rules or the person who actually walked to the cache?

We've been debating about emailing the FTFer and telling him he doesn't get FTF because he parked ILLEGALLY for the cache. He has done this for the past few caches on the trail. Its a bike trail only. and parked on the side of the road.

What do you think should be done?

 

First to find is not an award to be given. It is a binary state, you either are or you are not.

[+K13]

What do you think should be done?

Nothing.

 

By any logical definition, the FTF goes to the person who signed the log FIRST.

 

Illegal parking is a risk the finder took to get your cache first, not different than climbing a tree without safety equipment.

 

I just hope the log was more than "Woohoo FTF! TFTC!"

[+fbingha]

I think you will only cause yourself unwanted conflict if you choose to make such a judgement call.

 

Did the other cacher drive 85 in a 65 to get there, breaking another vehicle code?

[+coupleocachers]

What do you think should be done?

Nothing.

 

By any logical definition, the FTF goes to the person who signed the log FIRST.

 

Illegal parking is a risk the finder took to get your cache first, not different than climbing a tree without safety equipment.

 

I just hope the log was more than "Woohoo FTF! TFTC!"

 

Nope most of the logs he writes are

!!!!FTF #237 @ 8:58 a.m.!!!!! I saw this cache publish last night and knew I had to make the grab. TFTC

Edited January 27, 2013 by coupleocachers

[+Isonzo Karst]

Enforcing the parking and traffic laws aren't part of your mandate as a cache owner. How do you know that the second finder didn't break the speed limit getting there?

 

I guess if he acknowledges that he parked illegally, you could try deleting his log, ie no find at all. I'm not recommending this at all, it's just the only way for him not to be FTF is to not to have any find. As baloo&bd said, it's not an award, it's a fact.

 

If you want to enforce a certain route, and with that a certain set of parking coords, the way to do it is by placing a multi-cache, that starts near the correct parking, and keeps people on the correct track.

 

When you place a traditional cache, people are going to get to via the convenient route.

[+Roman!]

I really hate able bodied people that park in a handicap spot.

[+T.D.M.22]

Again he was the first to sign the log. parking illegally, speeding, or even going to the extreme and killing someone to be the first won't change the fact that the cacher was there before anyone else.

 

Just to say it, I don't know anyone who has never parked illegally at least once.

[4wheelin_fool]

Realistically, the only law that you can enforce is deleting the log of someone who goes into a park after hours. Illegal parking is not worth being concerned about.

[+geocat_]

I have parked on a road illegally to grab a cache....on a bike trail. Understood the risk I was taking but felt safe as I was never more than a couple hundred feet from my car. Just like others have said, speeding, parking illegally, etc have nothing to do with who got there and signed the log first. It is a calculated risk, like climbing that tree

[+hydnsek]

Agree with previous posts that FTF is whoever signs the log first, by whatever means (fair or not, legal or not). It's a side game, not a prize and not part of geocaching.com's 'records.'

 

There's also the possibility that the cacher didn't (bother to) read the cache page, so didn't see your note about parking or the parking coords. I know that I sometimes don't read the page if I think I can find the cache without it - it's part of the challenge for me. Of course, sometimes this means I miss key pieces of info. Like IK said, if you want to enforce a route, make it a multi that takes them to the appropriate locations.

 

Edit to add: After looking at the page, you really should add the parking coords as an Additional Waypoint if you want folks to use them. Then they are downloaded along with the cache coords in gpx files, and people can route to them.

Edited January 28, 2013 by hydnsek

[+lamoracke]

Realistically, the only law that you can enforce is deleting the log of someone who goes into a park after hours. Illegal parking is not worth being concerned about.

 

Personally I think all you can even do here is ask the FTFer to not admit they broke the law in their log, they can still log the cache.

 

Park illegally? Yeah, imagine we have all done it to some level. Park for a few minutes in a park and get out before paying. 15 minutes load / unload zone but in and out for a cache. Etc etc. I would never park in a handicap spot for a cache though.

[+Walts Hunting]

It doesn't matter what you do. He will put that on his stat sheet as a FTF and what you write on the cache page won't affect anything.

[+The A-Team]

There is listed coords on the cache page on where to park.

A better way to do it would be to make the coordinates into an additional waypoint. Then cachers don't need to punch in the coordinates manually just to figure out where the parking is.

[+wimseyguy]

You are also assuming that the second person is telling the truth about what they observed the first to find doing.

Maybe they are just PO'd that they missed out on the FTF and are making up a story in the hope that you will archive the FTF log in error?

[+Viajero Perdido]

Many people never even LOOK at the cache page.

 

Plan accordingly.

[AZcachemeister]

You warned him there could be a parking fine.

He ignored your warning (or didn't even see it), and got away with it.

 

There is nothing more for you to say or do...if there hadn't been a witness, nobody would know.

 

I might possibly have done the same, because I see a difference between parking (for an hour or more) and 'stopping the car' (for a few minutes at most).

 

I get this perception due to the signs I see near schools that say 'No Stopping, Standing, or Parking Anytime'. This leads me to the conclusion that there are legal differences between Stopping, Standing, and Parking.

 

And to make matters worse, if I see six empty handicap parking spots, I'm not afraid to use one for a couple of minutes...especially if the cache is on the 'Handicap Parking' sign.

[+SwineFlew]

Who cares, the FTF is a high school game in the adult world.

[+Bushwalker53]

He gets it because he physically found the cache first, it doesn't matter if they broke other rules to get to it. You will just earn a bad name and be talked about in bad ways at events, I wouldn't try.

[+simpjkee]

The guy who found it first is the first to find it. That simple.

 

As a cache owner though, who cares? FTF is not awarded by the cache owner. Let the finders decide if they want to proclaim first to find or not. Heck, let the 8th person to find the cache proclaim ftf on the cache if thats what they want to do. What diff does it make?

[Mr.Yuck]

Oh goodness. First to find is first to find. If he wants to take the risk here, whatever floats his boat. I realize your frustration here, but there's really nothing that you can do. Not that being "FTF" means anything to me. Would we even be having this discussion if FTF wasn't involved? What would you think about the 14th finder parking illegally for this one?

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

...Would we even be having this discussion if FTF wasn't involved? What would you think about the 14th finder parking illegally for this one?

My thoughts, exactly.

[+Scubasonic]

whoever signed the log 1st is the FTFer...period

[+dprovan]

What gave you the idea you get to pick who's FTF? If STF has an issue, he can take it up with FTF himself. If it were me, I might even go so far as to bitch about it publicly in my STF log. But as the CO, you have nothing to say about it.

 

You do have a say about the illegal parking, so you should talk to the FTF about that if there was an actual safety issue he should be more aware of. But that's an unrelated matter.

[+Don_J]

You warned him there could be a parking fine.

He ignored your warning (or didn't even see it), and got away with it.

 

There is nothing more for you to say or do...if there hadn't been a witness, nobody would know.

 

I might possibly have done the same, because I see a difference between parking (for an hour or more) and 'stopping the car' (for a few minutes at most).

 

I get this perception due to the signs I see near schools that say 'No Stopping, Standing, or Parking Anytime'. This leads me to the conclusion that there are legal differences between Stopping, Standing, and Parking.

 

And to make matters worse, if I see six empty handicap parking spots, I'm not afraid to use one for a couple of minutes...especially if the cache is on the 'Handicap Parking' sign.

 

If you exit your car, you are parked. It's really that simple. I've had it explained to me more than once when I drove a delivery truck and would have to park where it was safe, regardless of the signs. Never in a handicapped spot, however. Handicap tickets are running about $650 around here, and the city is strapped for cash. You're better off blocking a fire hydrant.

[+OZ2CPU]

100% of all car drivers, do something not perfectly after the book every week !!

the ones who say this is not true are either blind or lying.

 

a CO is NEWER to blame for any cachers bad behaviour, or bad luck.

but I like the idea to advise or even warn as a CO,

if there is any potential danger at the location,

the cacher can take your advice or not, his choise, his risk, his money, his life..

 

it is IMPOSSIBLE to make all caches, 100% fool prof

like ONLY located directly near a free parking lot,

only one perfectly safe way to the cache, and a blinking neon sign with red arrow

here it is..

[+Moose Mob]

Also remember that there is no requirement to read the cache page. In most cache run situations, there is no reason to. There is also no expectatioon that a geocacher will utilize the parking coordinates, even if it is their best interest (been there a few times ).

 

One should be able to find and log a *traditional* cache given only the coordiantes. In some cases it my be very difficult without hint or description, but it needs to be possible.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Would we even be having this discussion if FTF wasn't involved? What would you think about the 14th finder parking illegally for this one?

 

If there was a trend that those looking for the cache parked illegally, I'd probably archive the cache. If I felt that others in the local community had no qualms about breaking laws in order to be FTF I'd stop placing any caches. The way I see it, every time a LEO encounters someone breaking the law (even if it's as simple as illegal parking) it has the potential to put the game of geocaching in jeopardy. I'm not going to risk that happening just so someone can do a happy dance.

[AZcachemeister]

 

If you exit your car, you are parked. It's really that simple.

 

Probably the Parking/No Parking regulations differ by state and municipality.

 

Or maybe I have just been lucky.

 

Or perhaps driving an obvious service vehicle made the police not stop and ticket me? (Yep, seen them just go around without a glance my way.)

Around here, the landscapers can block entire lanes with impunity anytime they need/want to.

[+Manville Possum]

What do you think should be done?

Nothing.

 

By any logical definition, the FTF goes to the person who signed the log FIRST.

 

Illegal parking is a risk the finder took to get your cache first, not different than climbing a tree without safety equipment.

 

I agree.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

And to make matters worse, if I see six empty handicap parking spots, I'm not afraid to use one for a couple of minutes...especially if the cache is on the 'Handicap Parking' sign.

 

Everyone in a wheelchair or has a prosthetic leg or other physical disability says "Thanks."

[+Mudfrog]

Would we even be having this discussion if FTF wasn't involved? What would you think about the 14th finder parking illegally for this one?

 

If there was a trend that those looking for the cache parked illegally, I'd probably archive the cache. If I felt that others in the local community had no qualms about breaking laws in order to be FTF I'd stop placing any caches. The way I see it, every time a LEO encounters someone breaking the law (even if it's as simple as illegal parking) it has the potential to put the game of geocaching in jeopardy. I'm not going to risk that happening just so someone can do a happy dance.

 

This is what i think about when i hear about or see people breaking the rules and/or the law (no matter how small) when geocaching. Of course the park superintendent or LEO may not even know that the person is geocaching but if they do, then it can, and has, caused repercussions for our hobby.

[+Bear and Ragged]

Is having to park at the posted coordinates on the cache page an Additional Logging Requirement?

 

You can suggest not to park in case you get a ticket.

Anyone that does park there takes the chance.

[+Roman!]

Would we even be having this discussion if FTF wasn't involved? What would you think about the 14th finder parking illegally for this one?

 

If there was a trend that those looking for the cache parked illegally, I'd probably archive the cache. If I felt that others in the local community had no qualms about breaking laws in order to be FTF I'd stop placing any caches. The way I see it, every time a LEO encounters someone breaking the law (even if it's as simple as illegal parking) it has the potential to put the game of geocaching in jeopardy. I'm not going to risk that happening just so someone can do a happy dance.

 

This is what i think about when i hear about or see people breaking the rules and/or the law (no matter how small) when geocaching. Of course the park superintendent or LEO may not even know that the person is geocaching but if they do, then it can, and has, caused repercussions for our hobby.

 

If the FTF parked illegally because it was easier to get to the cache you can bet many others will too so he should be regarded as a hero for exposing the bad placement of the cache and saving Geocaching and the cache should be archived.

[+uxorious]

Also remember that there is no requirement to read the cache page.

 

I read this often, and by cachers I have a lot of respect for. However, I wish there was some way to get everyone to read the cache page when there are special instructions.

 

For most caches it really wouldn't make any difference, but there are caches out there that are great caches, but could face archival if special instructions are not followed.

 

There is a cache near my house with 5 favorites, and is a fun cache. However, when the cache owner got permission, they were given hours between which the cache could not be hunted because of security alarms. If cachers set off the alarm, the cache will be pulled.

 

I also see instructions on the cache page that will help prevent damage of the local landscaping. If we want our parks to continue to allow caches, it would be better to pay heed to it.

Edited January 28, 2013 by uxorious

[+niraD]

I read this often, and by cachers I have a lot of respect for. However, I wish there was some way to get everyone to read the cache page when there are special instructions.

You could make it a multi-cache or a mystery/puzzle cache.

[+the4dirtydogs]

Who cares, the FTF is a high school game in the adult world.

I agree. It really blows me away to read some of these threads and realize that these are grown adults. Are you kidding me, this is just a game.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Would we even be having this discussion if FTF wasn't involved? What would you think about the 14th finder parking illegally for this one?

 

If there was a trend that those looking for the cache parked illegally, I'd probably archive the cache. If I felt that others in the local community had no qualms about breaking laws in order to be FTF I'd stop placing any caches. The way I see it, every time a LEO encounters someone breaking the law (even if it's as simple as illegal parking) it has the potential to put the game of geocaching in jeopardy. I'm not going to risk that happening just so someone can do a happy dance.

 

This is what i think about when i hear about or see people breaking the rules and/or the law (no matter how small) when geocaching. Of course the park superintendent or LEO may not even know that the person is geocaching but if they do, then it can, and has, caused repercussions for our hobby.

 

If the FTF parked illegally because it was easier to get to the cache you can bet many others will too so he should be regarded as a hero for exposing the bad placement of the cache and saving Geocaching and the cache should be archived.

 

Bad placement? Are you kidding me. It's not the cache owners fault that there are some that seek their caches that think getting that FTF or an easy find is more important that obeying the law.

[+NeverSummer]

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

Disclaimer here.

 

My advice? If someone is taking the FTF game this seriously, they need to stop playing the FTF game. First-to-find is, as others have said, a fact of being the first to find. If someone wasn't there to apparently "see" them parking where they shouldn't, how would anyone know? Again, if it were the 101st finder, would anyone get upset?

 

I guess we are seeing a weight of importance on the FTF game coming out here. Does the FTF game mean you must be legally and ethically pure to participate? There are many examples of seeking for a cache that might involve taking a risk. And, as the disclaimer states, we all assume the risks we take. This person stopped in a place where they might have received a ticket, but they didn't get one. Risk taken, consequences avoided.

 

Does that make them a "good person" in others' eyes? Perhaps not. But I don't think it is our job to worry about that as cache owners.

[+StarBrand]

FTF is the first person to find the cache and sign the log. Simple enough.

 

I have been to a cache where the listed parking is half a mile away even though perfectly legal and simple parking was about .15 away - I mentioned that in my log and got scolded for "giving away" that piece of information and ruining the experience that the owner intended. The guy threatened to delete my find but never did. Not quite the same thing but illustrates how silly some owners can be over things.

 

Breaking the law for a cache is just plain stupid but it can/does happen.

[+JKMonkey]

Doesn't matter whether the guy parked legally or not, he's FTF regardless.

[+tozainamboku]

I'm not sure I understand. Is is OK to park illegally if you're not going for a FTF?

 

The fact is, whenever you have a cache that is close to the road but not necessarily close to legal parking, some people will park illegally while they search for the cache. Is the issue that someone has parked illegally or is it that someone got a "unfair" advantage for FTF by parking illegally?

[+The_Incredibles_]

He was still was FTF.

 

Reality check. If you're going to hide a cache right next to a convenient parking spot (whether it's legal or not), people (not just the FTF) are going to park there.

 

I did this for a cache last night. There was a parking spot right at GZ which was clearly marked 'No Parking' LOL. Well I parked there anyway, jumped out, grabbed the cache and got back in my car. If I wanted to do it the proper way, I would have had to park waaaaay down the road. Just too lazy.

 

As for what you should do, if you don't like the idea of cachers parking illegally, maybe move your cache?

Edited January 28, 2013 by The_Incredibles_

[AZcachemeister]

And to make matters worse, if I see six empty handicap parking spots, I'm not afraid to use one for a couple of minutes...especially if the cache is on the 'Handicap Parking' sign.

 

Everyone in a wheelchair or has a prosthetic leg or other physical disability says "Thanks."

 

They can use one of the five other spaces for the two minutes I'll be there.

[+Roman!]

And to make matters worse, if I see six empty handicap parking spots, I'm not afraid to use one for a couple of minutes...especially if the cache is on the 'Handicap Parking' sign.

 

Everyone in a wheelchair or has a prosthetic leg or other physical disability says "Thanks."

 

They can use one of the five other spaces for the two minutes I'll be there.

 

I'm glad you're anti-FTF otherwise you'd give FTFers a bad name.

[AZcachemeister]

 

I'm glad you're anti-FTF otherwise you'd give FTFers a bad name.

 

I'm not anti-FTF!

 

I sneak into parks after hours to get them...

 

I have 157 FTFs, which is 1.53% of my total finds.

[+Roman!]

 

I'm glad you're anti-FTF otherwise you'd give FTFers a bad name.

 

I'm not anti-FTF!

 

I sneak into parks after hours to get them...

 

I have 157 FTFs, which is 1.53% of my total finds.

 

Sorry then, my bad, I thought everyone on this forum was anti-FTF, carry on.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

He was still was FTF.

 

Reality check. If you're going to hide a cache right next to a convenient parking spot (whether it's legal or not), people (not just the FTF) are going to park there.

 

I did this for a cache last night. There was a parking spot right at GZ which was clearly marked 'No Parking' LOL. Well I parked there anyway, jumped out, grabbed the cache and got back in my car. If I wanted to do it the proper way, I would have had to park waaaaay down the road. Just too lazy.

 

As for what you should do, if you don't like the idea of cachers parking illegally, maybe move your cache?

 

Or maybe, if cachers are going to park illegally just so they don't have to walk a few hundred feet for their smiley, there is the option to stop placing geocachers for those that put getting an easy smiley above engaging in behavior that could be potentially detrimental to the game. There may be a specific reason why someone wanted to place a cache in a specific place and moving it to some other location that is closer to easy and free parking may be way down the list of choosing a location to place there caches. I have one that if one parks about .2 of a mile away at the coordinates I recommend in the listing they'll have a nice walk on a trail that few people know about and pass by a really pretty but small gorge. Instead, a few people insist on parking a close as possible to GZ, and every time someone mentions it in their log I consider archiving the cache.

[+ArtieD]

The cacher that signs the log first is FTF...no ifs, ands or buts.

 

That said, in my time caching, I have broken many, many laws in my caching exploits...mainly traffic ones.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Arthur & Trillian

[+coupleocachers]

Thanks for the advice.

It does bother me a little...

 

Here is another question about this FTF hound...

 

He has over 1000 finds, hidden 1, adopted 2 and has over 240 FTF's...

 

The thing that bothers us in the Community on the Trail is that out of the Trail he has gotten 40+ FTF's on it and not a decent log on any of them, nor has he placed any that others can claim FTF on him.

 

We have a trail here that is called the Chuck Co NYTPT Trail.. There is a total of 99.. Out of the last ones since the last challenge he was first on traidtionals and skips over the others.

 

One time he walked past a cache that was already taken FTF on at the PARKING LOT(He already filled his calendar days) and walked the .10 of mile for the other one..

 

I guess its his gas..

Oh well thanks for the vent.