Signing Container Rather Than Logbook

[+norbu]

signing the container is lame, unless the cache is specifically designed that way. I don't give a hoot about records, or numbers, or any such, although I find it annoying that someone would try to engineer a situation to pull such a thing, but whatever. If they want to spend their time that way, whatever. But signing the container? lame. just lame. I would find it annoying at best if I ran across that behavior where I live.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

In addendum, I don't think it is fair for Vinny and Sue Team to slander the entire Texas caching community based on the actions of a few people whom are not from our great state.

 

Also, carleenp: are you married?

Sigh. For the record, if it really matters , you may wish to go back and re-read what I wrote: I never slandered anyone, much less the Texas geo community. What I did write -- and I am ALREADY seeing it come true over the past few days in the jokes and innuendo I am now hearing in the geo world in the aftermath of GW4 -- was that the silly shenanigans done by some persons at GW4 might possibly endanger the reputation of GeoWoodstock, of TXGA, and of Texas geocaching. If you look at some of the jokes (and even hostile barbed comments; one person even threatened physical violence) that some of the posters are making on some of the fraud-related threads, you will see that my prediction is coming true, at least to some extent. Let us hope that the phenomenon is short-lived.

 

In any case, what you did was confuse the messenger with the message. I simply was the messenger: I mentioned the possibilty that the reputation of GW and TXGA and Texas might well suffer in the aftermath of the event. You apparently just tried to shoot the messenger because he bore a message you really did not like.

 

Anyway, whatever you wish to think is okay with me. I still love you (uncondtional love, aka agape, that is, not romantic love!) anyway, no matter what you wish to think about me or my writings! And I will still be happy to talk to you or sit down and chat over a burger if I meet you at an event.

[+Team Pink]

If you have so much negative energy to expend, why not refocus and form an official geocaching organization with rules and all the other administrative functions? Have elected officials, bylaws, recruit state organizations, etc.

 

It's already been done.

 

I didn't get a ballot! My opinions were not represented. Who is the president? I would like to correspond with him/her. Where are the bylaws because I would like to read them. Where are the "official" rules for verifing finds?

 

I understand what is being said about community. I appreciate the concept as well as the existing, but it is still all about the cache owner and the cache finder and no one else. I have "real" problems with muggles destroying caches and cache finders not rehiding the cache properly and finding three initials written with a sharpie on my cammo'd ammo cans wouldn't bother me much. If another cache owner in the area expresses his feelings in a post about finding three initials on the outside of his cache, I'd relate to it but I wouldn't take up a flag and march around town shouting down with "container signers". The game is not threatened by this! Hiding caches without permission threatens the game! Destroying the environment threatens the game. Bad mouthing other geocaches threatens the game.

 

Let the cache owners complain and everybody else just stand back and say, "I hear ya". Unless you are the cache owner, you have no voice. Unless of course you are like the media that you probably complain about, or just like to stir the pot see how riled up you can get people over something that happened to someone else.

[+MountainMudbug]

Unless you are the cache owner, you have no voice.

 

Wow, that is quite a statement.... Does that mean nobody is allowed to say anything about anybody else's cache? New rule, new rule!!

[+New England n00b]

If you have so much negative energy to expend, why not refocus and form an official geocaching organization with rules and all the other administrative functions? Have elected officials, bylaws, recruit state organizations, etc.

 

It's already been done.

 

I didn't get a ballot! My opinions were not represented. Who is the president? I would like to correspond with him/her. Where are the bylaws because I would like to read them. Where are the "official" rules for verifing finds?

 

I understand what is being said about community. I appreciate the concept as well as the existing, but it is still all about the cache owner and the cache finder and no one else. I have "real" problems with muggles destroying caches and cache finders not rehiding the cache properly and finding three initials written with a sharpie on my cammo'd ammo cans wouldn't bother me much. If another cache owner in the area expresses his feelings in a post about finding three initials on the outside of his cache, I'd relate to it but I wouldn't take up a flag and march around town shouting down with "container signers". The game is not threatened by this! Hiding caches without permission threatens the game! Destroying the environment threatens the game. Bad mouthing other geocaches threatens the game.

 

Let the cache owners complain and everybody else just stand back and say, "I hear ya". Unless you are the cache owner, you have no voice. Unless of course you are like the media that you probably complain about, or just like to stir the pot see how riled up you can get people over something that happened to someone else.

I am *A* cache owner, and I don't want to see this precedence (vandalizing the cache container) take hold and spread. I DO have a voice. Just because I am not *THE* cache owner doesn't exclude me from discussing the matter.

[+JohnnyVegas]

AS the owner of several caches, some of which have camoflage that took several hours to do, As I have said before, I will delete any names on the outside of on of my caches. THis is a practice that shows no class, anyone that would deface aother owners cache is not to be encouraged.

 

I have deleted logs in the past when they have included spoilers which I will do in the future. If people do not like it when I delete their log that is just to bad for them.

 

The guidlines require a cache log be signed to claim a find. The container is not a log.

If someone has a problem with the Guidlines that have been placed by Groundspeak, maybe they should use one of the other cache listing services.

 

If someone wants to cheat they are not bringing anything to geocaching.

Those of you that do not like the rules should just go away and find some other sport/hobby to cheat at.

[+briansnat]

Unless you are the cache owner, you have no voice.

 

Poppycock!

[+SUp3rFM & Cruella]

So, there's this cache which has a logbook inside. Still, the geocacher comes in and "signs"/deface the container just because he was in a hurry?

 

I'd delete the log online instantly and erased the crap they wrote in the container.

[+DocDiTTo]

 

Let the cache owners complain and everybody else just stand back and say, "I hear ya". Unless you are the cache owner, you have no voice.

 

That's where you're mistaken. All of us have a voice. The only difference between us and the cache owner is that the cache owner also has the ability to delete the found log.

 

Reading back over the last 6 pages, I believe the community has spoken loudly and quite clearly on this subject. You choose to not agree with the majority, and that's ok. It just means you're part of the minority on this topic. If that bothers you, I suggest you either reconsider your opinion, or perhaps find a different thread where everyone agrees with you. To come in here and tell us that our discussions are invalid and irrelevant is just silly. If that were the case, there'd be no discussion here in the first place.

[heckle]

I am a fairly new cacher but have been active in it. We even organized a CITO after caching for abotu two months. Seeing how new I am to the sport, I can understand how my thoughts can be taken but, it is my opinion and I shall share it.

 

If someone wants to form a team and make an unofficial 24 hour mad dash for caches, that is fine. But they should abide with the same set of guidelines (notice I did not say rules) as the rest of us. You want to log a find, sign the log (Of course, this would not apply to virtuals). If there is no log to sign or it is unsignable or full, then sign a scrap of paper and drop it in. Lord knows wht the DRR team should have had plenty of paper available to them to use! There was no need at all to sign any container.

 

And to prevent what some have said, yes, I also am a cache owner. When we did our CITO, we put out a cache. We did it a little differently though. We put the cache out after the event. The cache was a regular ammo can. During the event, we had all participants sign the INSIDE of the lid. Why is it that the DRR team could not have done that? If they wanted to sign the cache to save time, they coudl have opened it up and signed the inside of the lid and this would not have been considered vandalism ro destroying the camo of the cache.

 

This is just my 2 cents as a cache owner and a cacher.

[+ar_kayaker]

 

Let the cache owners complain and everybody else just stand back and say, "I hear ya". Unless you are the cache owner, you have no voice.

 

As a cache owner I do have a voice, even though mine wasn't one of the ones vandalized THIS TIME! I put WORK into some of my caches, but I would not like someone signing even the one with a plain brown paintjob.

 

Signing the containers sets a bad precedent for the future, but there was another bad precedent set as well.

 

Geopirat made up his own rules, sent an e-mail on fairly short notice, and then if he didn’t get a response assumed it was okay with EVERYONE. What about cache owners that don’t check their e-mail frequently? What about cache owners that were on their way to GW4 and didn’t even have internet access at the time? What about every other cacher (or at least those that care about stats) who he and his team claim to have “beaten”?

 

Should we just make up our own rules, post them in the forum, and assume everyone that doesn’t reply agrees?

 

Legal rules for contacting an individual for say, a court date, require they be contacted NO LESS THAN 30 days before the court date, by certified mail or if that isn’t possible then they notice is published in a statewide newspaper 3 times over the course of a month with the final publication being 30 days before the court date.

 

That might be a little much for the purposes of a sport activity, but an e-mail a few days before is definitely way too little.

[+marvin1226]

I too found numerous caches in the area with DRR on them. At first we, NEONCACHER and I, thought it was someone's way of verifying caches before the event, but learned otherwise as I was logging caches. I agree that this is in poor taste, but since I don't have any hides yet, I can't really say how I would deal with it as an owner.

 

For this reason, and another OT reason, I will personally discount this record.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Sigh. For the record, if it really matters smile.gif , you may wish to go back and re-read what I wrote: I never slandered anyone, much less the Texas geo community. What I did write -- and I am ALREADY seeing it come true over the past few days in the jokes and innuendo I am now hearing in the geo world in the aftermath of GW4 -- was that the silly shenanigans done by some persons at GW4 might possibly endanger the reputation of GeoWoodstock, of TXGA, and of Texas geocaching. If you look at some of the jokes (and even hostile barbed comments; one person even threatened physical violence) that some of the posters are making on some of the fraud-related threads, you will see that my prediction is coming true, at least to some extent. Let us hope that the phenomenon is short-lived.

 

In any case, what you did was confuse the messenger with the message. I simply was the messenger: I mentioned the possibilty that the reputation of GW and TXGA and Texas might well suffer in the aftermath of the event. You apparently just tried to shoot the messenger because he bore a message you really did not like.

 

I want to reiterate that GW4, Groundspeak, TXGA or TexasGeocaching had NOTHING to do with our run.

 

We did it a week before GW4, and it was not sponsoreed or supported by anyone. No announcement was made at GW4 regarding the run (at least none that I am aware of).

 

There are a lot of good points being made here, I certainly have learned from them, but the hysterical linking of unrelated events should be toned down - if GW4, Groundspeak, TexasGeocaching or anyone/anything else is hurt by our actions it will be beacause of posts here that don't have their facts straight.

 

Criticize the DRR team, if my apology doesn't work for you, but please leave others out of it.

 

Ed

Edited May 31, 2006 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Cornerstone4]

If you have so much negative energy to expend, why not refocus and form an official geocaching organization with rules and all the other administrative functions? Have elected officials, bylaws, recruit state organizations, etc.

 

It's already been done.

 

I didn't get a ballot! My opinions were not represented. Who is the president? I would like to correspond with him/her. Where are the bylaws because I would like to read them. Where are the "official" rules for verifing finds?

 

 

They said it has already been done, they didn't say it has already been done here.

 

Maybe you haven't seen any bylaws because you weren't invited to play there.

[+Polgara]

What is your general thoughts on teams or individuals signing the outside of the container rather than taking the time to open the container and signing the logbook. Yes, the contain could be opened and did have a logbook enclosed. I have seen a lot of these containers signed this week in DFW area (for GW4) where teams have been running.

 

Nooooooo, i'd think that is against the guidlines......its against the guidlines to use a code word in a cache instead of a log book to verify a find, how is this any different? Its a 'code word' on a cache, only the finder is placing the code word, instead of the hider.

[+wimseyguy]

Simple-the guidelines clearly state "sign the log". No one has the right to change this. It was wrong.

Yes the containers were defaced, and in some cases it was easier for me to find it because the black DRR writing stood in sharp contrast to the color of the container that had been painted to match its hiding spot.

My feelings (which I will not express in detail here) are directed at the individuals who called themselves DRR. I had a great time in Dallas and at geowoodstock4.

 

Anything else discussed in posts to this thread is off topic.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

Sigh. For the record, if it really matters smile.gif , you may wish to go back and re-read what I wrote: I never slandered anyone, much less the Texas geo community. What I did write -- and I am ALREADY seeing it come true over the past few days in the jokes and innuendo I am now hearing in the geo world in the aftermath of GW4 -- was that the silly shenanigans done by some persons at GW4 might possibly endanger the reputation of GeoWoodstock, of TXGA, and of Texas geocaching. If you look at some of the jokes (and even hostile barbed comments; one person even threatened physical violence) that some of the posters are making on some of the fraud-related threads, you will see that my prediction is coming true, at least to some extent. Let us hope that the phenomenon is short-lived.

 

In any case, what you did was confuse the messenger with the message. I simply was the messenger: I mentioned the possibilty that the reputation of GW and TXGA and Texas might well suffer in the aftermath of the event. You apparently just tried to shoot the messenger because he bore a message you really did not like.

 

I want to reiterate that GW4, Groundspeak, TXGA or TexasGeocaching had NOTHING to do with our run.

 

We did it a week before GW4, and it was not sponsoreed or supported by anyone. No announcement was made at GW4 regarding the run (at least none that I am aware of).

 

There are a lot of good points being made here, I certainly have learned from them, but the hysterical linking of unrelated events should be toned down - if GW4, Groundspeak, TexasGeocaching or anyone/anything else is hurt by our actions it will be beacause of posts here that don't have their facts straight.

 

Criticize the DRR team, if my apology doesn't work for you, but please leave others out of it.

 

Ed

 

I have remained out of this discussion and I hope it has about run it's course, but I will say this:

I applaud you and your team for finding 312 caches. I am sorry they were not properly logged and it has sparked such a controversy, but even if it were 100% approved of it would still be an unofficial record since there was no sanctioning body. You made the attempt and you have the memories, and as I see it you meant no harm. It is far to easy to misjudge people based on partial, incomplete and sometimes totally false "facts", and I will not do it. If we ever meet I'll shake your hand and pass judgement on what kind of person you are based on first hand observation, I suspect we'd hit it off just fine. Until then remember, "This to will pass".

To the rest, the horse has died, stop flogging it. You've all made your points, on both sides, anyone who still disagrees isn't likely to change thier minds because of your next post, so why not call it quits now, while I'm giving you a good excuse to do so?

[+TEAM 360]

If we ever meet I'll shake your hand and pass judgement on what kind of person you are based on first hand observation, I suspect we'd hit it off just fine. Until then remember, "This to will pass".

 

Bama' Rambler is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet. I know.

[nickie218]

God forbid anyone wrote anything on the outside of my ammo can or tupperware I think the world would end as I know it.

 

Good job to all who completed the 24 hour record...job well done. You can sign my cans whenever you are in town.

 

I saw something on the news the other day about the fact thay we are STILL in a war.....and imagine at a time of war someone out there is toting a lethal sharpie around Texas.... protect me George Dubbya!

[+Criminal]

You can sign my cans whenever you are in town.

Given my recent scolding, I think it best that I not comment here.

[Mr.Yuck]

Is it really that difficult to take the 30 seconds needed to do that? Nope.

30 seconds * 300 caches = 9000 seconds = 2 hours 30 minutes.

 

Not pissing off cache owners and half of the geocaching community, priceless.

 

Now this particular post was priceless. I gotta stop hanging around the forums, all the threads of late make me nuts. Pocket caches, animated .gifs of an FTF dance embedded in bookmark lists and displayed on the cache page, and now signing the outside of the container? Forgive me for not reading all 260+ posts to the thread, but did anyone mention specially made team stickers for the logbooks with everyones name and the date of the run? Not only have I heard of it being done, I planned to copy the idea in the future.

[EDIT] OK, now I see it was mentioned several times. Or a stamper for pete's sake. Never mind. But I will say that the post I quoted is still the most humorous of the 260+

Edited June 1, 2006 by TheWhiteUrkel

[RubiconJW]

Having followed this, and other related threads, I pose the following questions.

 

..How many actual cache logs were signed when: all team members were present, at the listed coordinates, in a period of 24 consecutive hours and on caches that were not previously "scouted"??

 

That's a number I feel we ALL could accept.

 

As I see it..

Signing containers shouldn't count as it: 1)*might not* be the actual cache & 2) it's not within accepted guidelines.

All team members should have been present at the cache.. otherwize it's an individual find, not a team find.

Pocket caches/ table caches or ANY finds NOT at listed coords should be discounted.

Pre-scouted caches shouldn't count as their loaction is already known.

 

Based on these premisses *I* personally cannot accept the current "World Record" claim by team DRR.

 

..unless it's a record of stirring up a mess on the "WWW" forums..

 

So there's the view from *my* saddle. Other opinions welcomed.

 

JW

[+BiT]

Out caching today and had just enough batteries to snap a pic of this cache. It was real easy to find.

 

[+MountainMudbug]

 

A picture is worth 1,000 words ( or at least 10,000 in the forums )

[+niraD]

Out caching today and had just enough batteries to snap a pic of this cache. It was real easy to find.

I hope you notified the owner so he can repair the vandalism.

[+vree]

not cool.

 

ETA: thanks for posting the pic, BiT.

Edited June 1, 2006 by vree

[+BiT]

Out caching today and had just enough batteries to snap a pic of this cache. It was real easy to find.

I hope you notified the owner so he can repair the vandalism.

 

I talked with them at GW4 and also posted it in the find log. This cache is one of those irony caches. The container is a UPS candy mint tin near a FedEx Kinko's. The container is probably somewhat rare. The cache is called What Can Brown Do For You Today?

Edited June 1, 2006 by Buckeyes_in_Texas (BiT)

[+Stunod]

Gee...ya think they should put that image up in the front-page gallery?

 

Very un-cool.

[+BiT]

Okay, here is another bit of info. This darth_maul_3 user is not only signing the outside of the containers as DRR but at later dates as HCT. I have deleted one of their log where HCT signed the outside of my cache.

 

Log as darth_maul_3 as HCT

 

May 23 by darth_maul_3 (2107 found)

2006-05-22 - 22:36

Found this fine cache on a run with the Team HCT (Hanseatic Cache Team)

THX for Cache 1764

darthi

 

Log as darth_maul_3 as DRR

 

May 20 by darth_maul_3 (2107 found)

Found this Cache as Part of the 24 Hour Recordrun. Thanks for these great Caches that made the Recordrun possible.

We found 312 Caches in these 24 Hours and had over 40 DNFs

The Team consisted of:

Ed, The AlabamaRambler (AKA NatureFish)

Max, Poppy of Nonnypoppy

Mike from Cache&Keri

Mike, Golf from GolfNutz

Roland, darth_maul_3

Tammo, Spuchtfink

Michael, M.Zielinski

Carsten, geoPirat

Thanks to all from the team, you did a great job all the time.

All caches were signed DRR (Dallas Record Run) for the team.

 

Greetings from germany and to germany.

 

darthi

[+VegasCacheHounds]

Okay, here is another bit of info. This darth_maul_3 user is not only signing the outside of the containers as DRR but at later dates as HCT. I have deleted one of their log where HCT signed the outside of my cache.

 

Log as darth_maul_3 as HCT

 

May 23 by darth_maul_3 (2107 found)

2006-05-22 - 22:36

Found this fine cache on a run with the Team HCT (Hanseatic Cache Team)

THX for Cache 1764

darthi

 

Log as darth_maul_3 as DRR

 

May 20 by darth_maul_3 (2107 found)

Found this Cache as Part of the 24 Hour Recordrun. Thanks for these great Caches that made the Recordrun possible.

We found 312 Caches in these 24 Hours and had over 40 DNFs

The Team consisted of:

Ed, The AlabamaRambler (AKA NatureFish)

Max, Poppy of Nonnypoppy

Mike from Cache&Keri

Mike, Golf from GolfNutz

Roland, darth_maul_3

Tammo, Spuchtfink

Michael, M.Zielinski

Carsten, geoPirat

Thanks to all from the team, you did a great job all the time.

All caches were signed DRR (Dallas Record Run) for the team.

 

Greetings from germany and to germany.

 

darthi

 

Wait, were both these logs on the same cache?

[+Tsmola]

Out caching today and had just enough batteries to snap a pic of this cache. It was real easy to find.

<snip>

 

So that container couldn't be retrieved?

 

One member of the team finds a cache and writes the team sig in the logbook or on the container if the logbook can't be retrieved

 

yes....it appears the cache is on a guardrail, that makes it VERY difficult to retrieve and open, yup best course of action here was signing the container

 

And they signed it so well, such nice handwriting in nice, thick black letters, yeah that doesn't make that container obvious at all...

 

thanks for posting the pic, I'll say it again these guys should be ashamed

[+BiT]

 

Wait, were both these logs on the same cache?

 

Nope, different caches.

Edited June 1, 2006 by Buckeyes_in_Texas (BiT)

[+BiT]

Out caching today and had just enough batteries to snap a pic of this cache. It was real easy to find.

<snip>

 

So that container couldn't be retrieved?

 

One member of the team finds a cache and writes the team sig in the logbook or on the container if the logbook can't be retrieved

 

yes....it appears the cache is on a guardrail, that makes it VERY difficult to retrieve and open, yup best course of action here was signing the container

 

And they signed it so well, such nice handwriting in nice, thick black letters, yeah that doesn't make that container obvious at all...

 

thanks for posting the pic, I'll say it again these guys should be ashamed

 

It wasn't on a guardrail, it was on a lightpole and electric box combo. I retrieved it and signed the logbook.

[+Tsmola]

eh, close enough. Obviously it was still very difficult for these guys to retrieve, as were all the caches they found.

[+rjb43nh]

TheAlabamaRambler (post #183) “We were honest and fair in our approach, and published them [your rules] widely in advance.”

It would appear that you posted your self-serving rules on a local site that requires anyone wanting to see what was there to log in. I don’t think this qualifies as “published them widely in advance.” Why didn’t you publish your “rules” here in the forums for all to see? (I guess that could be considered a rhetorical question.)

 

“….but the overwhelming support and appreciation I have recieved so far tells me that most folks honor our effort even if we didn't do everything by the book.”

I’m no statistician but I have the feeling from reading this thread and other related ones that that statement is overwhelming false. I also don't recall seeing the word "honor" and DRR's effort mentioned in any thread.

 

That said, certain guidelines are widely accepted by the community as hard-and-fast rules, and we certainly bent if not broke the 'sign the log' part.

Shattered might be a better word, certainly not “bent”. You describe your fellow team members as very experienced cachers so ALL of you should have known better. Even someone new to geocaching wouldn’t think; “Gee, signing the container seems like a good idea!” I believe at last count someone stated there were at least 30% (87) of the 312 cache containers signed with a big fat “DRR” on the outside.

 

TheAlabamaRambler(post 263) –“There are a lot of good points being made here, I certainly have learned from them, but the hysterical linking of unrelated events should be toned down - if GW4, Groundspeak, TexasGeocaching or anyone/anything else is hurt by our actions it will be beacause of posts here that don't have their facts straight.”

I’m sorry, but the above quote sounds like blaming the victim for the crime and you really haven’t learned from your mistakes. Your mea culpa doesn’t sound convincing somehow. To call other posters who are justifiable upset by DRR’s outrageous behavior “hysterical” and saying: “if GW4, Groundspeak, TexasGeocaching or anyone/anything else is hurt by our actions it will be beacause of posts here..” doesn’t sound contrite or that you’re willing to accept any responsibility for your actions.

 

What you did was a monumental act of hubris. You got caught, take your punishment like an adult and move on. Please don’t give any more excuses for your actions, it only makes you look worse. Oh, I do like records and I do like stats but I see no record here. At best you could claim that 312 containers may have been found by 8 individuals scattered over a 0.5 miles area at any time and this equals an average of 39 caches per individual over 24 hours-certainly no record.

[+LadeBear68]

"What you did was a monumental act of hubris. You got caught, take your punishment like an adult and move on. "

 

Funny how your post reflects the other 285 posts but you can't seem to, how do you say it? Move on?

[+Harry Dolphin]

"What you did was a monumental act of hubris. You got caught, take your punishment like an adult and move on. "

 

Funny how your post reflects the other 285 posts but you can't seem to, how do you say it? Move on?

 

I should say because this issue has not been settled. Is this the future of geocaching? Ignoring all guidelines, defacing caches, making claims of complete arrogance? Moving on implies that the problem has been resolved. This is a very sore spot for the 285 posters. Like saying "So, he stole a million dollars from you last month. Move on." Sweep it under the rug. Forget that a major assault has been made upon what is, to some of us, very important. I can laugh at many things. "Oh, they meant well." "Oh, they were just having fun." No. In this case, the complete arrogance is an insult to us all.

[+rjb43nh]

LadeBear68-“Funny how your post reflects the other 285 posts but you can't seem to, how do you say it? Move on?”

I fail to see how my stating my opinion, in my only post on this entire subject, that TAR should stop trying to justify or rationalize what the DRR team has done, has anything to do with your above statement. You have multiple posts on the same subject supporting the DRR team and TAR’ actions; or attacking opposing viewpoints-perhaps it isn’t me that needs the advice to move on. Please try to post something constructive.

[+LadeBear68]

I don't support signing the logbook but it was a mistake. People make mistakes. Why does there need to be several posts attacking the individuals making the mistake. If you want to debate the issue fine, but I thought personal attacks were frowned upon.

[+pghlooking]

Funny how your post reflects the other 285 posts but you can't seem to, how do you say it? Move on?

Do you have anything to add to the debate? For or against will suffice and would be greatly appreciated over your current agenda of singling out people and trying to convice them to shut up and move on. That's not really on topic now is it. Of course that's your opinion as what should happen and we all know that the rest of our opinions, which we have been discussing this thread as well as others, shouldn't be stated since they don't agree with yours. Guess what. If you don't like the discussion...move on...no need to post...move on. Great advice. Let's see if YOU can take what you are trying to serve.

[Moun10Bike]

I don't support signing the logbook but it was a mistake. People make mistakes. Why does there need to be several posts attacking the individuals making the mistake. If you want to debate the issue fine, but I thought personal attacks were frowned upon.

 

I have seen few personal attacks here. Rather, I have seen people lambasting a behavior that I think raises some very serious concerns about how geocaching is being conducted by some in some arenas.

 

Frankly, I think that much of the discussion would have died off by now if we had seen a sincere, selfless apology from the members of DRR and some sort of indication that they understood how inappropriate and unethical their behavior had been. However, no such messages have yet been forthcoming.

[+rjb43nh]

LadeBear68-“ Why does there need to be several posts attacking the individuals making the mistake. If you want to debate the issue fine, but I thought personal attacks were frowned upon.”

I have criticized the actions and reasoning that TAR has freely admitted to in the forums and you consider that a personal attack? A personal attack would be accusing someone who you didn’t agree with of being on a “witch hunt” as you did today. Have a nice day.

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

Frankly, I think that much of the discussion would have died off by now if we had seen a sincere, selfless apology from the members of DRR and some sort of indication that they understood how inappropriate and unethical their behavior had been. However, no such messages have yet been forthcoming.

 

Not only have they not shown remorse for the unethical behavior, but there is some sign that such behavior will continue. For example, the fact that one team member repeated his faux pas of signing the container instead of the log book while hunting caches as part of another team. There is a great need to have further discussion on this, or this behavior could well be the norm in the future.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

This all seems simple to me......if THE LOG isn't signed the cache owner should delete the entry. You don't sign the container, the rock next to the container, or the tree behind the container. If there is any truth to a fraction of these posts there is no new record.

As for the old record, how was it achieved ?

Just curious.

[just B0B]

Actually the practice of signing cache containers originated here in North Alabama, as evidenced by the following log entry from A Shocking Experience #4 (GCMMRH)

========================================================================

March 3, 2005 by wesleykey (xxxx found)

Found the container. What a sneaky hide! I lacked the needed "stuff" required to open the container. So, I signed the container. TFTC!!========================================================================

The cache was a plastic electrical disconnect box on a utility pole with a 3 tumbler luggage lock on it. The combo was hidden in plain sight on the cache page, however this cacher prides himself for not reading cache page descriptions and hints.

 

Said cacher now holds the uncontested RECORD for having the bumper on his Toyota pickup truck signed with a Sharpie at every event he attends!

 

edited to add picture

Edited June 2, 2006 by TOIDS R US

[+VegasCacheHounds]

Actually the practice of signing cache containers originated here in North Alabama, as evidenced by the following log entry from A Shocking Experience #4 (GCMMRH)

========================================================================

March 3, 2005 by wesleykey (xxxx found)

Found the container. What a sneaky hide! I lacked the needed "stuff" required to open the container. So, I signed the container. TFTC!!========================================================================

The cache was a plastic electrical disconnect box on a utility pole with a 3 tumbler luggage lock on it. The combo was hidden in plain sight on the cache page, however this cacher prides himself for not reading cache page descriptions and hints.

 

Said cacher now holds the uncontested RECORD for having the bumper on his Toyota pickup truck signed with a Sharpie at every event he attends!

 

edited to add picture

<img snip for the benefit of those on dial up who don't really want to see the same pic over and over and over on the same page>

 

Doesn't sound like a valid find to me, he didn't actually do what was required to properly find that cache.

 

Of course, I imagine that this has already been beaten to death in a different forum

[NBCNCO]

Some things are basic. Signing a logbook is in geocaching FAQ's as stated here.

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Where you place a cache is up to you.

 

Finally the answer to the question - have cache containers been signed on the outside?

 

Yes, cache containers were signed by team members during the run if they were not camouflaged and if there was no harm to stealth factor if the cache.

 

 

Does this mean that if you don't 'take something from the cache' and if you don't 'leave something in the cache' then you also can't claim it as a find?

[+Miragee]

Some things are basic. Signing a logbook is in geocaching FAQ's as stated here.

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Where you place a cache is up to you.

 

Finally the answer to the question - have cache containers been signed on the outside?

 

Yes, cache containers were signed by team members during the run if they were not camouflaged and if there was no harm to stealth factor if the cache.

Does this mean that if you don't 'take something from the cache' and if you don't 'leave something in the cache' then you also can't claim it as a find?

That is another one of those things on the website that needs a bit of revision.

 

It probably should say:

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

1. Write about your experience in the logbook.
   
2. If you take something from the cache, you should leave something of equal, or greater value.
   

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

Actually the practice of signing cache containers originated here in North Alabama, as evidenced by the following log entry from A Shocking Experience #4 (GCMMRH)

========================================================================

March 3, 2005 by wesleykey (xxxx found)

Found the container. What a sneaky hide! I lacked the needed "stuff" required to open the container. So, I signed the container. TFTC!!========================================================================

The cache was a plastic electrical disconnect box on a utility pole with a 3 tumbler luggage lock on it. The combo was hidden in plain sight on the cache page, however this cacher prides himself for not reading cache page descriptions and hints.

 

Said cacher now holds the uncontested RECORD for having the bumper on his Toyota pickup truck signed with a Sharpie at every event he attends!

 

edited to add picture

 

Notice that the person standing with him is the one who okayed signing the container during this so called record run. This one persons "method of caching" is spreading.

[Clan Riffster]

What is your general thoughts on teams or individuals signing the outside of the container rather than taking the time to open the container and signing the logbook.

I'm of the "Live & Let Live", geohippy variety of cachers, who don't worry overly much about things like numbers. That being said, I would not be a happy camper if someone signed the exterior of one of my caches. I put a lot of work into my camo, and a bold, black DRR across it would qualify as vandalism in my book.