Geocache Fraud

January 2, 2004

In the course of geocaching around my home area in the last few months, I have discovered a person who logged at least 45 caches in 3 days covering an area well over 100 miles and hikes that could take at least 4 hours each. The person has never written in the log books at the caches and never exchanged any items. This seems very unfair to all those who make the effort to go to the caches. Should something be done about this, and if so, what course of action should I take?

Thank you for any help.

3.1k · January 2, 2004

If I knew of such a thing in my area I can tell you what I would do.

not a single thing. I could care less. It doesn't affect me in the least.

January 2, 2004

I could care less. It doesn't affect me in the least.

I agree.

It's sorta sad I guess - he's just cheating himself, but in the great scheme of things it ready doesn't affect anyone else. I guess it's a bit of a stretch to say that behaviour of this sort hurts the credibility of the game, but it's not worth worrying about. At least you don't have to worry about him plundering your cache.

~erik~

3.8k · January 2, 2004

As the others have said, don't worry about it.

22k · January 2, 2004

If you are the owner of any of the caches in question, you have the option to delete any logs which you believe to be fraudulent. Many owners choose to write to the finder to discuss the problem before deleting the log, in case there are extenuating circumstances.

For caches which you don't own, let the owners of those caches worry about this geocacher.

January 2, 2004

Like the Yellow Pages of the phone books they are just letting thier fingers do the walking. Oh weeelll I think I will get another 40 caches done tonight(do dreams Count)

January 2, 2004

Boy, that is sad! Why would someone bother??? Talk about "cheating yourself"

Why stop at 40...why not 100? The result is the same either way....nothing.

At least it gives us something to talk about.

24.7k · January 3, 2004

Boy, that is sad! Why would someone bother??? Talk about "cheating yourself"
Why stop at 40...why not 100? The result is the same either way....nothing.

At least it gives us something to talk about.

100 was probably too much work!

January 3, 2004

I guess every cacher is different. Some say "no big deal since he is cheating himself" and others want a person accountable and or penalized. I am real new to this but I would email the person and ask them for an explanation (as if there would be one.)

Pretty cool you caught the person in the sham though, good job!

3.1k · January 3, 2004

I chased after a cache a couple of years ago. I was the only one to have signed the logbook. When I got back home a man had posted that he got in there first a couple of days earlier. I couldn't believe it so I went back out to check the log, still only my name in it.

I never said a word, I know who was there first and who never made it. That stuff really shouldn't ruin anyones enjoyment.

6.4k · January 3, 2004

Cheaters DO hurt the legit cachers. A fake find on a cache, especially one that has previous DNF's, gives the impression that the cache is still there. I don't think I'd get the "joke" if I spend 2hrs searching for a missing cache because the log yesterday said it was there.

There is tons of talk about how we, the community, should help maintain caches. I do this, and usually carry a cache repair kit in the car. If I know there are problems, I'll bring whats needed to repair the cache. If the last (fake) log said the cache was fine, I'm not carrying that spare logbook with me. If there where reports of problems, then a log that says the cache is in fine shape, I'll assume it's been maintained, when in fact it hasn't.

As a cache owner, if I get a log on one of my caches that it's been found, and in good shape, I assume there is no need for me to check on it or maintain it yet.

Again, all the other legit cachers lose. If you suspect this guy is cheating, consider emailing other cache owners to check their caches, and delete his finds as well.

5k · January 3, 2004

Mopar is right.

Jamie

2.4k · January 3, 2004

As a cache owner, I fully agree with Mopar. (scary as that may be)

1.7k · January 3, 2004

A cacher logged a find on one of my adopted caches (still in Chrome's name but I am the "caretaker").

He logged the find AFTER another cacher retrieved the cache for me.

I even e-mailed the "finder" and told him that we had collected the cache days before he got there, but he still insisted he found it.

The cacher has since been banned.

January 3, 2004

A cacher logged a find on one of my adopted caches (still in Chrome's name but I am the "caretaker").

He logged the find AFTER another cacher retrieved the cache for me.

I even e-mailed the "finder" and told him that we had collected the cache days before he got there, but he still insisted he found it.

The cacher has since been banned.

this would be why one would want to be sure he signed the log book in the cache. I just found out that when I thought I posted a log for a cache three weeks ago it didn't go through. Now I will have to try to repost it. Good thing I signed the log book, cause now there is a lot of snow there and it would be dubious if I were to say I found it now.

January 3, 2004

A cacher who doesn't have the gumpshun to go find a few caches might find the gumpshun to go steal a few if he's banned

January 3, 2004

I am new to all of this (only 4 finds so far) but I think the person that logs fake caches is really cheating himself. One of the reasons I started this fun hobby is for the accomplishment of finding a cache. No, it's not like winning the Nobel Prize but it gives me a sense of accomplishment that I drove around, hiked around and FOUND IT.

I don't really think the cheater should be "punished" but they are really only cheating themselves out of a lot of fun and the opportunity to meet new people in the long run.

January 3, 2004

Obviously this cacher just doesn't get it. The reward is in finding the cache, not boosting numbers. That would be like me saying that I was jealous of someone who has been caching for 2 years who has found 300 caches, and then going and boosting my own numbers to feel superior over other cachers with less finds. It's not a race. Don't get me wrong, there is fun in competition, but that shouldn't be your only objective. I do it for the fun of the hunt, for being outside, and for spending time with friends who also enjoy it.

Most importantly, it get's me off my butt and out the door! (especially in the winter!)

January 3, 2004

I've noticed a certain individual in out area who logs finds on caches on the site as a means to advertise his own website. Rather pathetic if you ask me. None of the caches have had the log books signed, and he never never lists any details about the cache, only 'I found this, and left a new one near it, check it out at my website www.blahblahblah.geo'... I think it's a pretty poor sport that has to stoop to faking logs just to try and get a few more people to his 'pay-for-play' geocaching site

-bjs539

January 3, 2004

This may seem like a long shot, but is it possible that he DID find these caches in the past, but just signed the log under a different name or a team name? For example, perhaps his team 'broke up' and he is now using a different account to represent only himself. He could have gone through and relogged all of his finds using this new user name. Of course, the logical thing would have been to log in under the actual dates that these caches were found instead of making it appear that they were all found over the last three days.

I'm just trying to find a reason for this...faking logs really makes no sense...unless his Dad offered him $5 for every cache he finds as an incentive to get exercise??? Yeah, that's it! :huh:

3.8k · January 4, 2004

As a cache owner, I fully agree with Mopar. (scary as that may be)

He does make some good points--things I hadn't thought of, but am glad he brought them up.

38.2k · January 4, 2004

I could care less. It doesn't affect me in the least.

If a recent "find" encouraged me to head out to look for a cache that isn't there, I'd be pretty pissed.

Edit: I didn't read through the posts before I replied, so I see Mopar covered this far better than I could. I totally agree with him on all points.

Though it looks like LHC DRat did encounter a cheater in this case (no physical logs to verify finds is the key), people should be careful before they accuse someone of cheating. Geocaching feats that may seem impossible to many of us are actually routine for some gung-ho geocachers. I know one person who hits my area periodically and will bag 15, 20 or more caches many miles apart in the same day and some of them involve pretty long hikes. I doubted that this person was legit for some time, but her name and signature item are in caches all over the place, so the finds are kosher.

Also, some people have "teams" that log under the same account and different members might be logging caches in different areas on the same day.

That being said, if there was a proven cheater working my area, I wouldn't hesitate to call them out on it, chiefly for the reasons Mopar mentions and also because I really can't stand cheaters.

Edited January 4, 2004 by briansnat

January 4, 2004

Here's an interesting twist to this issue: we have a local geocacher who will sign the logbooks in the cache but will not log it on the site.

38.2k · January 4, 2004

Here's an interesting twist to this issue: we have a local geocacher who will sign the logbooks in the cache but will not log it on the site.

There are a lot of those out there. Its more common than you think. Though I think the least someone can do is let the owner know the cache was found after the owner took the time, money and effort to place the cache for them.

January 4, 2004

[b :huh:

Just learning this Geo Caching I signed the log in most,

forgot to in one, though I ts,ls. another I ts and left it ona

rock nearby, which I will go and get when the snow melts.

If this was my cache, I would put something of value init.

So when this sandbagger claims to have visited it you can reply

by asking him if he retrieved the special something........

But of course if his daddy is giving him $5 for each cache found?

Or by going back to some of his earlier finds maybe he signed with

co-cachers and send them an email........

I personally haven't placed a cache "YET"

but when I do......................

It's not going to be easy.

You'll have to work for this one.

Of course I WILL make it worth your effort.

and of course a sandbagger will be the "loser"

3.1k · January 4, 2004

A cacher who doesn't have the gumpshun to go find a few caches might find the gumpshun to go steal a few if he's banned

That's a genuine fear of mine. I've had a couple disappear that make me very suspicious.

I won't delete anyones logs to be honest. It isn't really a contest no matter what some think. It's a fun activity and numbers are fun too. But there isn't a winner.

Good point though about a cacher fake signing a log while the cache could be missing. But we've all showed up for caches that were already gone anyways.

January 4, 2004

I am fairly new to this but have been logging finds one after another for the past coupla weeks. I am going to jump in here with my lil rookie tail because I think most of you are wrong. It DOES hurt all of us!!! Case in point, there is a local cache that really has me stumped. We have been out there 4 times in the past week. I was convinced I had found the location for where it was 'suppose to be' and I took a picture then emailed the cache owner. The reply I got back was 'its still there someone else just logged a find'. If that person had been a fake you can see where my claim would have been invalidated unfairly. See my point? The owner has since taken the time to look at my picture and as much as I hate to admit it I was actually wrong.. still dont see how.. but thats another story *L* Needless to say I am headed BACK out there. If I die before I find this cache I want to be buried on that spot *L*

Half of SweedKris

K

January 4, 2004

As long as the geocaching community continues to give some sort of 'status' based on a cacher's find count we will continue to see this sort of thing.

1.3k · January 4, 2004

Personally, if I logged a DNF, I go look for other caches until someone else finds it or I know what I did wrong. No point in making the same mistake over and over again.

January 4, 2004

In the course of geocaching around my home area in the last few months, I have discovered a person who logged at least 45 caches in 3 days covering an area well over 100 miles and hikes that could take at least 4 hours each. The person has never written in the log books at the caches and never exchanged any items. This seems very unfair to all those who make the effort to go to the caches. Should something be done about this, and if so, what course of action should I take?

If they are your caches, delete the logs on the website.

January 5, 2004

Mopar nailed it on this one. It really matters if logs are false. This person must have a reason for logging fake find. He or she is gaining something from it, even if you don't know what it is (for example, they might have a bet with another cachers to reach a certain number of finds). I would ask them for an explanation.

January 5, 2004

It's strange that someone would want to log stuff they don't find. It does not seem like much fun.

Edited January 5, 2004 by cacheKidds

January 5, 2004

I don't get why someone would log I find on a cache that they didn't find. I just don't get it.

It's the equivilant of cheating at solitaire . . . you are only cheating yourself.

It doesn't make any sense.

Whatever . . .

Happy caching and stuff!

2k · January 5, 2004

I don't get why someone would log I find on a cache that they didn't find. I just don't get it.

It's the equivilant of cheating at solitaire . . . you are only cheating yourself.

It doesn't make any sense.

Whatever . . .

Happy caching and stuff!

But we know some people do cheat at solitaire

I think cache owners have the DUTY (not just the option) of deleting logs that they know to be fraudulent.

(Mainly for reasons stated above that other cachers may be relying on the accuracy of reported finds.)

January 6, 2004

I'm new to this and it's possible to log the wrong post, but to claim 40 when you

didn't do any is silly.

I heard someone claim 53 in one day. I think that's impossible to do.

9.2k · January 6, 2004

I'm new to this and it's possible to log the wrong post, but to claim 40 when you
didn't do any is silly.

I heard someone claim 53 in one day. I think that's impossible to do.

Be careful about what you claim is "impossible" and its implication that you are accusing power cachers of being fraudulent. Fifty caches in a day is routine. Go read about Cache Machines in the Northwest forums to begin your education. Or, if you object to the validity of those statistics because they are planned and organized and found as a group, then look at the individual find statistics for power cachers in cache-dense urban areas in California, Washington, Tennessee and so forth.

January 6, 2004

That is pretty lame. I originally thought that the person claiming these finds is only hurting themselves, other have brought up good points that have made me change my mind. As a cache owner I do rely on the posts logged on the website to gage whether I need to go visit my cache's. I've also been the person looking for cache that has walked off. Even though the latest posting was a few days old. I don't think there is really much you can do about it. Except that if you own a cache and suspect fraud you can delete thier log.

January 6, 2004

I've deleted one log, for a webcam, after the person failed to upload the required image after an appropriate waiting period.

The same person claimed a find on one of my wife's caches. We decided to check the log since I knew him from other outdoor sites and knew he had a history of making outrageous claims. In our case he had supposedly hit our two caches in Missoula, MT though he lived in Cody, WY, and repeatedly maintained he signed the log though his name did not appear there and he could give no details about the hiding place (an urban cache in a high traffic area).

It wasn't a big problem for us to deal with this (though the abusive log entries and e-mails after his logs were deleted were tiresome), but I understand he also claimed a couple of virtuals nearer his home. On one of them, at least, he failed to answer the question correctly and his Find was deleted. Even though the owner was properly maintaining their cache by doing so, they also had to endure the abuse from this person.

It seems to be a difficult choice - either ignore the occasional jerk making false claims but misleading responsible geocachers, or delete their logs and run the risk of abuse or retribution.

January 7, 2004

We've had some incidences locally of caches going missing that point to a geocacher poaching the caches. That really sucks. It's one thing if you can chalk it up to muggles accidenting across your caches and taking them because they don't know any better. It another thing if geocachers who are fully aware of how much work this is and how much fun ppl have finding these things go ahead and scam them despite all that. That sucks.

What really rots is the last time it happened I had just placed a cache that COINCIDENTALLY happened to be along the same theme as the cache that went missing, down to the cache container. The owner of the missing cache, I believe, thinks I swiped her cache! As the owner of 30 caches, some of which have been stolen, I would NEVER do that to another cache owner. I have a lot invested in my cache hiding...time, effort, and money. That cache owner went to my new cache the next day and kicked over my redirector, leaving it visible, and then went to the cache itself and left it uncovered. I was not happy about that. If you are bitter, fine. Email me and tell me what's on your mind. Don't be all passive-aggressive about it. I have the receipt for my cache containers. I can provide her evidence that I didn't steal anything, but she didn't give me that opportunity. Instead, she accused a nameless geocacher on her cache site of having taken her cache container.

Two days later, her cache container turned up again and she reactivated her cache. She cited a "guilty conscience" for its return. . .I'm sure she thinks it's my guilty conscience. That's laughable considering I've never even visited her cache. I was even embarassed that my cache got approved given that it was so similar to hers! I wouldn't have posted it had I known.

The point of all this is that good cacher owners and finders DO NOT thieve or sabotage or in any way undermine other cachers' efforts. Those who are destructive are working contrary to the spirit of the game. I've told a number of people about geocaching, and the first thing they are amazed about is that other people who play don't arbitrarily go around stealing the caches. I explain to them that would just ruin the game for everyone. No one would tromp out into the woods anymore if they knew there was a 75% chance there was no ammo can there thanks to a poacher and the game would eventually fade out of existence. As a result, folks don't do that sort of thing. They hide and find vigorously and try to weed out folks who aren't playing the game but playing the players.

If you suspect a serial cache thief, set him up. Hide a bogus cache. Let other cachers in your area who you can trust know it's bogus. List some valuable items as the contents of the cache. Make sure the only ACTUAL thing in the cache is a note saying something like "To the person who has been stealing caches: We know who you are, and we're watching you. Thanks for leaving your prints all over this ammo can. Good thing one of our best cachers is also a member of the police department." or "Next time there will be more than a note. I raise tarantulas. Leave my caches and everyone else's alone!" Just scare the bejeezus out of him. Doesn't have to be true. It might help. It might not. Who knows? Couldn't hurt to try. Folks who stumble across it who aren't thieves will know it's not meant for them.

3k · January 7, 2004

If you suspect a serial cache thief, set him up. Hide a bogus cache. Let other cachers in your area who you can trust know it's bogus. List some valuable items as the contents of the cache. Make sure the only ACTUAL thing in the cache is a note saying something like "To the person who has been stealing caches: We know who you are, and we're watching you. Thanks for leaving your prints all over this ammo can. Good thing one of our best cachers is also a member of the police department." or "Next time there will be more than a note. I raise tarantulas. Leave my caches and everyone else's alone!" Just scare the bejeezus out of him. Doesn't have to be true. It might help. It might not. Who knows? Couldn't hurt to try. Folks who stumble across it who aren't thieves will know it's not meant for them.

So you're saying, in effect, that dishonest behavior is bad if you are the victim of it, but good if you are the perpetrator of it?

Your little exercise in fraud could just as well entrap and scare away a perfectly innocent cacher who was a newbie or visitor to the area and wasn't in on your little scheme.

January 19, 2004

There is tons of talk about how we, the community, should help maintain caches. I do this, and usually carry a cache repair kit in the car.

What does your cache repair kit consist of? We went for the first time yesterday (found 4 out of 4). One was a micro (really hard to find!!) and the little ziploc bag it was contained in had a few tears. We would have replaced the bag, but we didn't have one with us.

Should I have started a new topic for this? Just started -- not sure of the etiquette.

Lungy Stu

January 19, 2004

There is tons of talk about how we, the community, should help maintain caches. I do this, and usually carry a cache repair kit in the car.

What does your cache repair kit consist of? We went for the first time yesterday (found 4 out of 4). One was a micro (really hard to find!!) and the little ziploc bag it was contained in had a few tears. We would have replaced the bag, but we didn't have one with us.

Should I have started a new topic for this? Just started -- not sure of the etiquette.

Lungy Stu

Yes- new topic. And it was discussed here.

p.s.- you can search the forums for previosly posted topics.

4.7k · January 19, 2004

if you suspect cache fraud AND it bothers you, politely inform the owner. it is his business to do what he likes with the information.

claiming finds you did find not is very, very tacky and can inconvenience others. in the long run, it just makes the perpertrator of the fraud look like a jerk.

alternately, accusing people of fraud makes you look bad, too. sometimes people can accomplish things that will astound you.

people WILL find things in deep snow, and quicker than you thought. there are one or two caches i have claimed but not signed for because the logbook was soaked.

there are also one or two i have found but not claimed. nobody is keeping track of my stats except me. the odd time or two somebody will go look, but nobody but me is really paying attention.m and i'm not even really paying attention. i don'[t know my recent count. i haven't looked recently. and i'm behind in my logging (a chronic problem; because i often log with pictures i try to keep the logs in order so i can get all the pictures right. not so hard with caches, but it ties up your BMs if you take the pictures out of order.)

which is not to say i'm not a numbers slut. when i get near 500, you better bet i'll be counting.

but i'm STILL not telling which ones i've done but not logged.

3.1k · January 19, 2004

I just wonder why anyone cares what anyone else is doing.

January 22, 2004

That's ashame.

This is suposed to be a fun why would you want to cheet yourself out of the enjoyment. Cheeting is bad enough but it's has no end. I mean we don't get awards or prizes for finding more caches.

I only look at my numbers because it gives me a sence of accompleshment, no one else cares.

January 25, 2004

I want to thank all who responded to my query. There was many good opinions regarding cache fraud. I decided to write to the person and ask them about this seemingly impossible task. He sent me a congradulations for finding his fraud and admitted he never went to any cache, but was just playing a game. He also told me I should "lighten up" about the whole thing. I have also decided that as I visit any caches this person has logged, I will inform the owner when I log it, and let them decide what, if anything, they wish to do.

February 16, 2004

My general feeling about this, is that it's pretty much beyond anyone's control what another cacher (or fraud) is going to do. There's entirely too much enmity and ongoing flame wars on the net over stuff that is meaningless in any real sense. Best advice I can think of is to simply shun such people. As in, ignore them and let everyone else figure it out for themselves.

My specific suggestion to stellalunag would be to invite the supposedly aggrieved cacher out for a cup of coffee some morning. Might be a worthwhile investment...

February 16, 2004

Hi all, I just read all the opinions abowe and evenif I am a newbie GC, I could not hold my fingers to drop some more points. In couple of the appends some people are commenting the hunt for big numbers of found caches; I think this is quite normal behaviour. I used to face this also with another hobby which is ofcourse fishing. Most fishermen have pressure to oversize and over number their success for some time until they normaly find out that the weight or headcount is not the point. I have done that too, and as did I, I think most heal when they grow up, they learn more. So, I think this not too bad, but...

On these days we all have to be extreamly carefull every time we connect to the net, there is a growing bunch of people who are spending their effort to cause harm and confusion to who ever they can. This is why I am a bit supprised that GC community has been able to protect these forums well enough. However, stories like 'fraud founds' point out that there are folks ready to try their best to spoil this hobby by just spoiling the records, overloading the log files with fraud records. This is why I think it might be worth trying to suppress it from the beginning when ever clear cases are met !!

2.2k · February 17, 2004

As long as the geocaching community continues to give some sort of 'status' based on a cacher's find count we will continue to see this sort of thing.

I agree.

One thing that could be done is to make a person's find count only visible to the cacher themself. That way, there is no "status" given to someone based solely on the fact that they have more finds than someone else

Edited February 17, 2004 by Wavehopper

February 17, 2004

i don't think anyone has mentioned the chicks! i mean, who can blame a guy for inflating his numbers if you know what i mean. i know a guy who doubled his Finds and within a week he had ladies, and a few guys asking to bear his children. i mean, really, what guy wouldn't want to bear someone's children if he had like a billion Finds. And that was the Best Spring Break Ever.

The End

Geocache Fraud

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