Dear Mr Irish..

[+RuffRidr]

i don't think Groundspeak should be charged with dealing with this issue. This should come from us cachers ourselves.

 

Just add a link to an optional rating system page to the cache page. Then that a cacher can vote on the type and quality of cache. This could be simplified somehow, but this is the basic idea.

I think this has already been programmed (keenpeople.com I believe), because I have seen it on some caches. I see 2 problems with this approach.

 

First, there is no way for the 3rd party programmer to make it so that you can only rate the cache once you have found it. Anybody could go to a cache page that has a rating widget and rate the cache into oblivion. A implementation on gc.com could make it so that you could only rate the cache if you have logged the cache.

 

Second, is the lazy person who puts out the lame micro likely to spend enough time on their cache page to put a rating widget on it? Not likely, I'd guess. So you're not really solving the original poster's problem here.

 

--RuffRidr

[Find Now, Log Later?]

'Amen' to The Lil Otter's letter.

 

Someone took the time to leave a cache for you to hunt.

 

RE: the quoted statement: It seems to me that in many cases, caches of the quality described were NOT placed "for you to hunt," but rather were placed to raise the owner's hide count and/or the find count of the people who were with the owner when it was hidden. I would also argue that little, if any, thought, time, or effort is usually expended on such placements ... they are merely stuck in the first location spotted.

Edited April 28, 2004 by Bassoon Pilot

[+drat19]

'Amen' to The Lil Otter's letter.

 

Someone took the time to leave a cache for you to hunt.

 

RE: the quoted statement: It seems to me that in many cases, caches of the quality described were NOT placed "for you to hunt," but rather were placed to raise the owner's hide count and/or the find count of the people who were with the owner when it was hidden. I would also argue that little, if any, thought, time, or effort is usually expended on such placements ... they are merely stuck in the first location spotted.

And an AMEN to that, BP.

 

Here's a cut/paste from a "Cache Hiding" document I wrote recently, after caching visits to Nashville and Mobile, AL, which amplifies your point:

 

- - - begin paste-in - - -

 

Let's be frank here: Just because a location CAN support a Geocache hide doesn't necessarily mean that it SHOULD support one. Many "green spots on the side of the road with easy parking", or yet another "under a lamppost base in the WalMart parking lot in plain view of police/security near the trash dumpster", might at first glance look great for a Geocache, especially if you're hiding with the intent that Geocachers who enjoy "caching for Find stat numbers" will praise you on-line for providing them "yet another stat". (By the way, there's NOTHING WRONG with playing the "Geocaching for numbers" game - I'll be the first to admit that I often play this way!). Problem is, many of these "easy green spots" are very often also local hot spots for trash dumping, dead animal carcass drops, drug activity, drinking (with the resultant broken glass beer bottles). and other unpleasant and often-illegal situations, and the proliferation of "parking lot lamppost base" hides are a big reason why certain metro areas now have the "lame caches / just go here to get your stats" reputation.

 

Even for "numbers players", it is NEVER GOOD to have to navigate smelly, trash-strewn, dangerous, or "suspicious to concerned/paranoid locals" locations just to "get a stat". Imagine the first impression you would be leaving to a first-time Geocacher in your area, who brought his/her 6-year-old child for their first search, who happened to choose your cache because it was close to their home zip code.

 

- - - end paste-in - - -

 

-Dave R.

Edited April 28, 2004 by drat19

[+wimseyguy]

Been watching and reading, and only because Nashville has been mention several times I will reply.

 

they must be having fun they went there and got out of the car. We do show by example how to hide a cache and they hide what they like,  as do others.

 

I see no way to filter, rate, or sort out caches for individual taste so let it stay the way it is, what else can be done.

 

Am I going to tell a local friend and cacher that their cache is lame and sucks, I don’t think so they must not be to bad they sure are found a lot more than mine are so who’s are the real lame ones here, mine it looks like…………….. JOE

You don't ALWAYS have to get out of the car! Can I get a witness from the CHB? LOL!

 

AMEN BROTHER!

 

All jokes aside, having just returned from a marathon cache weekend in Nashville, I can say we saw plenty of lame caches (which we enjoyed doing) and we also saw plenty of outstanding caches (take a bow Joe among others). There are a couple that will make my all time favorites list (even a micro in a guard rail - Good one Joe). Yes, there are some that I have forgotten already except when I look at my track log and GSAK but overall we saw some beautiful spots, risked our necks more than once (in the woods - not in traffic), enjoyed excellent company, found some great caches and had a great time.

 

Jim

As one of the wheelmen with PF in the navigator's chair I'll agree with ALL he has just said. JoGPS I know you are being a bit sarcastic/humble here since yours were some of the outstanding hides we saw, and I have already posted links to them earlier in this thread.

Would I tell a friend his cache is lame and sucks-no probably not. But if hid 50+ of the same then yes I would politely tell him that he is taking caching in the wrong direction. The worst part of this behavior is that newer caches then think it's OK. We also found several of that style that were hidden by cachers with only a few hides and finds. Where did they learn from?

 

Did I have a great weekend visiting Cacheville? Absolutly!

Are we already planning a return visit? You bet!

Team CHB is already looking at Geowoodstock2 on our calendars. WE understand that there are all types of caches for all types of agendas when you have 1000's in an area.

I would love to get a guided tour of the best you have to offer.

 

The more I think about the option to check a 'would you recommend this cache' box for a cache I have FOUND the more I like that idea.

[ckhd]

YIPPY! MOB RULES! Let's burn some books.

 

Yay! More regulations! My favorite!

 

After we do that, let's go out and tell people what they can and can't do with their own private property. Then we'll tell them how fast they can drive their private property (cars), oh, and let's make them pay every year to keep thier private property, and then let's make them get our approval before they can build a house on their property, and then let's make them ask us before they are allowed to drive their own cars. Oh, and to pay for it, we'll force them to pay us a big chunk of money.

 

Wait...

 

Are we too late to make regulations to take the fun out of geocaching too?

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

(And sorry to say this again, but the Wal-Mart parking lot under the lamppost base next to the trash dumpster, when it's the 50th one like that within a 5-mile radius, is NEVER, EVER a worthwhile location - even for "numbers runners").

In YOUR opinion. I did one in WalMart and enjoyed it just fine. So my enjoyment should be taken away because it doesn't meet your approval?

 

Pretty self centered people we have dwelling here I'd say.

 

I've done most of the caches around here. Today in order to get two caches I put on about 90 miles. I would have loved a little parking lot micro under a lampost to help justify the expense of driving.

[+southdeltan]

(And sorry to say this again, but the Wal-Mart parking lot under the lamppost base next to the trash dumpster, when it's the 50th one like that within a 5-mile radius, is NEVER, EVER a worthwhile location - even for "numbers runners").

In YOUR opinion. I did one in WalMart and enjoyed it just fine. So my enjoyment should be taken away because it doesn't meet your approval?

 

Pretty self centered people we have dwelling here I'd say.

 

I've done most of the caches around here. Today in order to get two caches I put on about 90 miles. I would have loved a little parking lot micro under a lampost to help justify the expense of driving.

One's not a problem - but 50 identical caches is. That's the issue - that there are tons of these.

 

I loved the 'micro under the lamppost cover' the FIRST time I saw it. After the 10th one - it pretty much sucked.

 

--

 

What does your distance have to do with it? It's typically 90 miles one way for me... for ANY type of cache. If I have to drive that far I don't want to be looking for a keyholder on the back of a dumpster (there is often NO way to know that's what the cache is until you get there - you may know it's a micro, but that doesn't tell you it's lame).

 

--

 

I never saw the original poster ask for rules, just more indication of what the cache is going to be like. I try to make sure my description is very useful - parking coordinates if the obvious is illegal, mentioning poison ivy, etc - but not everybody does. The option of having some built in check boxes (ala the Selector) would be useful. I can't help but think this is fairly similar to the "attributes" that are supposed to be added to caches.

 

southdeltan

[+programmer64]

And so I invite you people to maybe come to Pennsylvania. We're not a cache-dense, stat-building place, but you'll find caches with stuff that meant something to someone...

Yea pop on over to Pa, We have lotso nice caches. Most of the ones I've done in philly have been creative and or educational.

[+fizzymagic]

It seems to me that in many cases, caches of the quality described were NOT placed "for you to hunt," but rather were placed to raise the owner's hide count and/or the find count of the people who were with the owner when it was hidden.

Amen.

 

What's the deal with all the people with the cache hider when the cache was hidden claiming "finds" on the cache? This practice has become commonplace in my area.

 

I confess that I have a few finds gathered this way; I was with people who insisted on adding my name to the log as they placed the cache. I dealt with this by going a fair distance away and then finding the cache myself, but I wasn't really comfortable with that. The excuse that I heard was that everyone who was with the hider needed to log the cache to keep it off their "nearest cache" pages.

 

If the site had an "ignore list" feature or multiple ownership, this excuse would no longer be valid and maybe this behavior would become generally discouraged.

 

In any case, I won't do it again.

[the federation]

Since my town and my name have both been presented in this thread I will keep my response short. I had lunch with Lil Otter while she was here and I had a great time doing a few caches with her and talking about the current state of caching in our area. I value her opinion as a prolific cacher and yet I appreciate the comments of Sissy and Cr. as well. Lil Otter does have some valuable points but she misses some points as well. Granted all of our caches don't take you to the historic, the truly sightseeing type caches yet there are many that do. Most of the caches that are here now do fall within the scope of The High Intensity Urban Impact type caches. The impression that most people have when they run into the securityguard is that no permission was granted, well that is not always the case but simply part of the hide. Security and store owners are very much aware of some of our placements. To us micros have become a way of seeing how we can make the typical difficult to find. Are there lame caches in Jacksonville sure, just as I am sure there are lame caches everywhere but caching to us is more than just the finds. Caching to us has become more about the community we are building than about pumping up numbers.

Greg Smith

President NEFGA

[+paintfiction]

Lil Otter,

Thank you for the heads up, as I am going to be heading to Jacksonville, by car from CT, in May.  I will need something to do while I'm down there.  I agree totally with what you say, and your request for a category for the lame micro.  Some people like them even want them.  But that is not why I cache.  I want the interesting hike, or history as you do.  I will be more selective in my choices when I go.  As much as I hate traffic, that's all I need is looking for guard rails and putting up with cars zooming by!  I've just celebrated my 2 year cachiversary, and the two guard rail caches I DID do were in gorgeous locations, miles of mountain views, and a pretty lake.  I don't need to see someone's dumpster or the back wall of the Publix store.  That doesn't float my boat.  I just wanted to say I appreciate your post, and how much you care about it.

This post validates a point I made earlier in this thread. The word DOES get out in the caching community about the quality of caches in a given area, and all it takes is one or two dominant hiders of what we're calling here "lame" micros to create a general negative perception of that area's cache quality.

 

The result of this is that the hiders of GOOD caches (among which could be THOUGHTFULLY-PLACED micros, by the way) in those areas get less traffic to their caches, and the cache SEARCHERS passing through the area miss out on the opportunities to visit those GOOD caches and places, because they've written off the entire area due to the negative overall perception.

 

This also answers JoGPS's post where he concluded (sarcastically, I'm guessing?) that his caches are the "lame" ones because the lamppost caches are in fact getting all the visits. Think again, Joe. Your "not lame, thoughtfully-placed" caches are missing out on the traffic because the prolific lamppost/guardrail hiders in your area have created so much "white noise" that your caches are getting overlooked, or they're getting intentionally skipped because folks like me and Wimseyguy blow through town, start making finds on the lamppost series, and decide to turn the whole trip into just a "numbers run" and move on.

 

Your local lamppost/guardrail hiders are doing YOU, and the lovely locations (or challenging hides) you choose, a DISSERVICE, because your caches are being skipped in favor of the quickie caches. A method to somehow filter out those lame caches (or filter IN your caches, and others like it) would help equalize the balance, and would help drive more traffic to your caches.

 

-Dave R.

Nothing personal Drat19..... your post was just a tiny straw that piled on to break the camel's back. This is addressed to all who think geocachers can't think for themselves or are mindless drones following numbers. Regarding Wimseyguy and myself and the other members of the CHB's run in Nashville: after we are done logging our finds, go through our profiles and see which ones we did. We did plenty of "numbers run" type caches, we also did a fair number of multis, a few puzzle caches, some really cool virtuals, and several that required hiking and climbing: woodsy type caches. Here's the bottom line: We took the time to look through about 700 hundred caches to select which ones we wanted to do. Yes, we went on a "number ho" hunt for part of the time. We had a grand time showing off our navigational and hunting skills. Mixed in were the high quality caches that we didn't want to miss. We did several 4s, one 4.5, (both difficulty and terrain) and many 2.5s and 3s. We did the caches we chose because we wanted to do them. We got lots of numbers. We saw great wooded parks. We saw some very scary terrain. We crawled and climbed on it too. We learned much history of the area. We had a great time. If anyone wanted to do the same in Jacksonville, they could find many high quality caches with varying terrain, interest, difficulty, etc. Let's use our brains and the tools at hand to do like we did and look before you leap! I was dying to do Beaver's Dam but from the logs it looked like it wouldn't be appropriate since it was raining during our trip. We used the logs and the cache description to make a decision. Is it that hard? Do a little homework before you hunt and I am sure you will many great hides in even the least well regarded area.

 

Regarding Lil Otter's original post: I understand her sentiment. I have been on a campaign to replace the urban micro with an urban ammo can (or at least a "regular" cache) wherever possible. Do we need rule changes? I don't think so.

 

Can we just let Lil Otter's post stand as her opinion and quit trying to phychoanalyze the geocaching community? Now get out there and hunt something!

 

Jim

[+paintfiction]

Since my town and my name have both been presented in this thread I will keep my response short. I had lunch with Lil Otter while she was here and I had a great time doing a few caches with her and talking about the current state of caching in our area. I value her opinion as a prolific cacher and yet I appreciate the comments of Sissy and Cr. as well.  Lil Otter does have some valuable points but she misses some  points as well. Granted all of our caches don't take you to the historic, the truly sightseeing type caches yet there are many that do. Most of the caches that are here now do fall within the scope of The High Intensity Urban Impact type caches. The impression that most people have when they run into the securityguard  is that no permission was granted, well that  is not always the case but simply part of the hide. Security and store owners are very much aware of some of our placements.  To us micros have become a way of seeing how we can make the typical difficult to find. Are there lame caches in Jacksonville sure, just as I am sure there are lame caches everywhere but caching to us is more than just the finds. Caching to us has become more about the community we are building than about pumping up numbers.

Greg Smith

President NEFGA

AMEN FED!

 

I don't know about any other area of the country but we have FUN down here and surprisingly few whiners and complainers in NEFGA country. When a problem is detected, we deal with it. My "anti-micro" campaign has attracted the attention of some of those who had previously hidden only micros. Voila! Traditionals are being hidden instead of micros. People don't have to be smacked in the face (or be insulted) to learn a better way.

 

Jim

[+SixDogTeam]

I say if it's not broke, don't fix it. And adding a lot of rules won't fix anything. So what if there's different types of caches? We have one very active local cacher who hides caches at thorn protected urban hobo camps. We have another idiot who's hidden film canisters in 30 pioneer cemeteries (And you know people come from other states to hunt them!) I like the trails in the state parks, some people like the urban trash caches. If you can't bother to read the cache page I've written to find out what my caches are like, then don't complain if it takes you to a place you didn't want to go. The answer is that the cache approvers have to make sure that the description gives the cacher a good idea of what the location is...Diversity is not a bad thing.

[+SeventhSon]

The answer is that the cache approvers have to make sure that the description gives the cacher a good idea of what the location is...Diversity is not a bad thing.

I hope this doesn't become a rule. Some of us enjoy the "mystery" and the "not knowing" during the hunt. I've seen a couple cache pages, not in my area, unfortunately, that are blank. Just cords and maybe a hint. Now that's a cache!

 

ON-T

 

How about some research. Check the city you're visiting. See who's hiding them and check find counts. When you find someone that has enough finds to be considered "experienced", send an email asking for some good caches. I'm sure most cachers would be happy to suggest a few that fit your criteria.

[+4agers]

It has been said before and I think it should be said again. I think people are confusing categories with quality control. I don't think a quality control system could ever be effectively implemented in a game like this. Categories can.

 

After all, we already have two categories... "Difficulty" and "Terrain". Adding additional ones doesn't do anything but give people the ability to sort more effectively.

 

Having something similar to the selector wouldn't hurt a thing. It really is a simple answer and one I would really like. I suppose in a round about way it could affect the behavior of hiders though.

 

My suggested categories would be...

a) Estimated Time: 1-4 hours or All day

Estimated Distance: 1-4 miles or (put on your hikers)

c) Difficulty: 1-5

d) Terrain: 1-5

e) Wheelchair Accessable: Y/N

f) Historical: Y/N

g) Educational: Y/N

h) Special Equipment: Y/N

i) Extreme: Y/N

 

Edited a misplaced smiley. OK, I guess the smiley stays

Edited April 29, 2004 by 4agers

[+Renegade Knight]

My first cache was a rock pile. We were hooked. I've seen rock piles of all kinds now. I've seen homeless encampments and light pole bases. The sprinkler head and electrical box. When it comes to hides though I still haven't seen it all and it's a lot like checking out the contents of a cache. I still get a kick out of it even though 99% of the time it's McToys. That new hide, that cool trade, that nice drive, the pleasant hike, the beauty of my surroundings and the company I keep when doing it all, keep me going in this sport.

 

For those who think that 50 of the same kind of hide are a bad thing, I am sorry. You see those hides are new to someone or new to the area, and the hider is still glowing with enthusiastm for this hobby. They are not yet jaded and with any luck maybe they never will be. Finding yet another frigging light pole cache is a small price to pay for the new blood flowing into this sport and the enthusiasm that will keep it alive.

[+carleenp]

Carleen, we've corresponded before here on the forums and you know I'm usually on board with you on most everything, but on this one I'd like to respectfully qualify your quote above:

 

I mean is a person's day really ruined or something because they found some lame micros?

 

One or two, when the rest of the day in an area has been otherwise-pleasant with good caches of all types and skill levels? No, of course not.

 

30, 40, 50, or more within a 5-mile radius? You'd better believe it ruins your day. I'm willing to invest HOURS in a single cache if it's worthwhile, but it's still an investment of my time. Targeting a particular area, especially as a traveling cacher not based in said area, means that my time is valuable (OK, not any more valuable than a local, but you get the idea). A few hours of those lame WalMart lots (and their variations) is enough to get one frustrated, to say the least. It's a whole lot different being frustrated by a tough search and No Find result, but on a good cache and location, from being frustrated by cranking 40 Find stats in uninteresting locations, dodging local police, and having to sniff dumpsters and dodge moving traffic.

 

If you attend GeoWoodstock2, and if the problem there hasn't "cleaned itself up" by then, then you'll know exactly what I mean, believe me.

 

-Dave R.

Well, I will admit that a large number of micros (at least not anywhere near the numbers you are giving) is not really an issue here in Nebraska. I guess my point was that I tend to put myself in the "go have fun" mindset. So, if I go find one cache that takes all day or find 12 easy urban ones, I end up happy either way. I suppose if my area suddenly filled up with "lame" urban micros, I might start sorting them through pocket queries and such to tailor my planned day. I intend to go to the Nashville event and will likely do the cache machine, even though that doesn't entirely appeal to me. So, you are right, I will see then. If my opinion changes, I'll be the first to admit it!

 

Are you going to be at the Nashville event? If so, I look forward to seeing you there!

Edited April 29, 2004 by carleenp

[+King Boreas]

Somewhere back there was a comment about ability to maintain a large number of caches. First thing: I don't *rely* on anyone to take care of my caches. With that said, there are a growing number of 'cachers in our area who routinely supply a pencil, a sharpener, a logbook. Others have taken the time to *dry out* a damp cache.

 

Every e-mail I receive that mentions a *problem* with the cache is saved, until the problem has been corrected, or the cache is archived. I don't randomly check out a cache, if there is no reason to.

 

I have placed a few caches in my 30 months or so. There is a large number in my stats. Let's not forget that those aren't active caches. I've had over 50 stolen, 20+ damaged, 20+ removed because of new county regulations, and I chose to archive 20+ "lame virtuals". That was a bit hasty because there were a couple that should still be active.

 

I mentioned removing some caches because of county regulations. Ramsey County set a limit *per person* of 5. When it became effective, I had to remove popular caches to meet the maximum allowed. In the year since then, I don't think more than 5 people have placed a cache in the area. So the theory that I was *monopolizing* is hogwash.

[+SerenityNow]

It's not my cup of tea.. but as with what happened to historical Virtuals.. should be also considered for these types of hides.. but atleast with a historical.. you could weed them out and not have them downloaded if you so wished.. NOTHING now can help the situation for those that do not want the urban parking lot hide finds.. oh.. and these places are NOT public property.. permissions never saught on most of them.. ask me how I know?? Well I have a wonderful picture of the National Security - Intelligence Agency auto that parked next to me at several of the caches... and it took me atleast an hour to explain my actions and why I was at those areas.. the police were also involved to do a lic/auto search.

 

Many times we have been poking around in an urban area and wondered what those who are passing by are thinking. Do they get concerned when they see two adults pawing through the bushes in the town square or looking in every nook and cranny in a back alley? In truth it's nice to know that law enforcement cares enough about our safety to stop, ask questions, and express concern.

 

We have been stopped several times during our searches by police officers who have asked if they can be of help or if we are in distress. We always explain what we are doing and why and they have always wished us well and gone on their way. At least we know someone cares! They do run your license plates though.... but we have nothing to hide!

[+carleenp]

Just another thought that likely won't apply to very cache dense areas. I once placed what I think many would call a "lame" lightpole cache. I did make sure it was in a park and not a Wal-mart parking lot etc. But still, it was stuck in plain sight on the light pole. The thing is that there were none of those here, so it was a new thing for the local cachers and they seemed to enjoy it. Yet a person from out of town who maybe had seen tons of those would likely have been disappointed by it. So what is "lame" in one area, might not be in another. Regardless I have since archived it since it became a pain to maintain and I was happy to get rid of it when it went missing.

[+1setter]

I'd say the problem is The Otter's sense of direction and obsession with cities. She said something about it not being about the numbers (pretty obvious with 2400+ finds). The Otter needs to head west where there is some space between caches and where most of them are rural and involve hikes and history. Don't stop in Mpls/St. Paul. Hit the ones on the back roads to South Dakota. Do Montana, Wyoming, Colorado and then Nebraska and Iowa on the way home. Out here the micros are hard to find because they aren't there or very rare. The .1 mile issue really doesn't come into play. You have to get near a town to find them within a mile of each other. You could drive a couple of weeks and have trouble getting 100, but it's not about the numbers. I've been doing this a year, and I will be lucky to double my 145 in another year living where I do. But I don't have 5 lame ones in my count.

[+Snoogans]

I wonder if/when the original recipient of this letter will reply?

I hope it's the same as the reply for question of an OT Forum.

 

Something like: "Ummmmm, NO. Go find some caches. Buh Bye."

[+Mastifflover]

I'd say the problem is The Otter's sense of direction and obsession with cities. She said something about it not being about the numbers (pretty obvious with 2400+ finds).  The Otter needs to head west where there is some space between caches and where most of them are rural and involve hikes and history. Don't stop in Mpls/St. Paul. Hit the ones on the back roads to South Dakota. Do Montana, Wyoming, Colorado and then Nebraska and Iowa on the way home. Out here the micros are hard to find because they aren't there or very rare. The .1 mile issue really doesn't come into play. You have to get near a town to find them within a mile of each other. You could drive a couple of weeks and have trouble getting 100, but it's not about the numbers. I've been doing this a year, and I will be lucky to double my 145 in another year living where I do. But I don't have 5 lame ones in my count.

1setter does have a point I've never found a lame light pole cache in the middle of the woods!

[+paintfiction]

1setter does have a point I've never found a lame light pole cache in the middle of the woods!

hmmmm...... we may have to remedy that oversight.

[+rickrich]

The Otter needs to head west where there is some space between caches and where most of them are rural and involve hikes and history. Don't stop in Mpls/St. Paul.

 

If you don't stop in the Twin Cities area, you will miss these, and many other great caches. Drat19, noted international cache reviewer, even came to the MnGCA meeting just a few weeks ago and stated that we should be proud that the quality of Mpls/St. Paul area caches remains very high compared to other areas. The Twin Cities area has a wide variety of caches that appeal to all cache tastes and experience levels.

 

-Rick

 

Congratulations to Barn Bywater by Kimbastoat, April 2004's Cache of the Month! Nominated and written by RJ.

 

The hike to this one is semi-grueling, yet stunningly rewarding once the booty is found. The actual cache is well hidden and should remain so. The views from on top of Barn Bluff of Red Wing can't be matched by any other close by. Views of most of Red Wing and great views of the river and bridges can be found here. I took many pictures.

 

Close by is some "paint artwork", probably done by high schoolers each and every year. After I found the cache, I spent well over an hour just exploring the area this cache is hidden and hiking all around the bluff it's on. There are many ways up and down this tiny mountain, and I made sure and checked most of them out.

 

The next time you're in Red Wing, set aside a couple of hours to find this cache. You will not be disappointed if you do.

 

Congratulations to When Darkness Falls....... by Candy Apple Green, March 2004's Cache of the Month! Nominated and written by s4xton.

 

This is one of the most inventive multi-caches in the Twin Cities area. Located in Lilydale Park in Saint Paul, this one likely cannot be accomplished during daylight. Thankfully, the park stays open until 11:00pm. While being winter friendly, it gives you a nice stroll around the shore of the Mississippi. Paved trails can be used for some of the walking. While the 3 options (you'll want to do them all) for the second part of the multi are likely a different style of caching that you've ever done before, the first stage is still rather tricky in it's own right. Finding the first stage of this multi gives you all the tools you need to complete the rest, but I also recommend bringing a flashlight and a partner. This one is definitely fun for two people.

 

Congratulations to Jidana 3 by rickrich, February 2004's Cache of the Month! Nominated and written by Wicket's Wandering Pony Patrol.

 

Hidden in a housing area is a swamp with a woodsey park along the edge. Included is a open park area with a wonderful view, fishing dock and picnic area. It appears that archery practice might be allowed here as well. You find an item at the coordinates that match the clue given and it so obviously stands alone that you look at it from every which way, you may even wriggle fingers in small places, but that log paper you're looking for will not be easy to write on until you find it. Now remember that your GPS can be off by 30ft so maybe this is only a starting point for you serch. There are other things within area that could fit the clue. It has been discribed as cuning and devious and I'm sure a few other choice words have been spoken here.

 

Congratulations to Greenway (GCA1CA) by eroom, January 2004's Cache of the Month! Nominated and written by Rock Johnson.

 

This cache was one of my first exposures to micro geocaching. Located close to downtown Minneapolis, this cache is hidden in a truly urban environment. As you search for this one, you could possibly be watched by hundreds of eyes from hundreds of windows. I like caches hidden in open places. Probably not one of the most traveled locations in downtown, the location of this hiding place is in kind of a short cut between some tall buildings. The satellite signal seems to go haywire as it �bounces� around the tall structures, which adds to the difficulty of this hide. There are plenty of benches nearby and in the summer there is ample foliage for the plant lover to admire. I gained inspiration from this cache for many of my hides. Being a �winter friendly� cache, this would make a great cache hunt any time of year.

 

Because of a tie in the vote we have two Caches of the Month for December. Thanks to all who nominated and voted this month!

 

Bandshell Cache by R.J. (written by Moe the Sleeze)

 

R.J. excels in ingeniously hiding caches in very open public places. The finest example of this, in my opinion, is his Bandshell Cache hidden near the Lake Harriet Bandshell in Minneapolis. This cache is hidden smack dab in one of the busiest pedestrian traffic locations in the state but has survived unmolested by geo-muggles since last February. It is safe to guess that hundreds of thousands of people have walked within a few feet of this cache without accidently discovering it. It is also safe to assume that the normal reaction of the geocacher that finds it is a smack to the forehead accompanied by an audible "Duh!"

 

Although the thrill of finding this one in the middle of a crowd of people will be somewhat diminished in the winter months, this cache is winter friendly and will be a fun hunt at any time of the year.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Death Valley by Farmerted (written by Wayfarin Stranger)

 

I spent about half an hour looking for it and when I eventually did find it, the cache of the month came to mind. The cache is in the Irene Gluck park in St. Peter, a nice little park to explore.I don't know what other info you might need, but any more would be giving it away. The cache is just a GREAT hide!

 

Kitch nominated the winner of this month's Cache of the Month -- the first virtual to win! Here is Kitch's writeup:

 

Mr. Little Guy's House by WatrWalker

 

I'm always looking the perfect kids cache and this is one I have my eye on. This cache is known worldwide and has been featured on WCCO, CNN, Canada Press, CBSnews.com, Associated Press, the CBS Early show, and countless others.

 

All of life is magical and fairy tales are true. This little tale takes place at this cache. About 9 years ago a elf moved into this spot near Lake Harriet and that little guy still lives there today. However, no one has ever seen him so if you are a really good cache hunter maybe you'll spot him. Your mission is to find his home and leave him a note. If you write him a letter he will write back. Please always use all lower case letters he prefers it that way. Mr. Little Guy's height is not confirmed but the press knows that he is taller than his younger brother and shorter than his older brother. The press is saying he wears comfortable khakis and the color green most of the time. If you want to bring him a snack bring Minnow Pizza he loves that. Stop by and visit his special cache......I'm planning a little girls first visit soon.

 

 

October 2003 Cache of the Month

 

Stillwater Surprise by towlebooth (nominated by pogopod)

 

Part of the joy of geocaching is the element of surprise, part is enjoying the beauty of nature, and of course part is the thrill of the hunt.

 

Stillwater Surprise comes as close to satisfying these three elements as any cache I have searched for in Minnesota. In addition, it is located in an area that is rife with history, near many opportunities for other outdoor activity, and close to its namesake town that itself provides many caches and lots of other things to do.

 

Without giving away the surprise, let me say that I have lived less than twelve miles from this area for the last twenty-five years, and never knew it existed. A hidden access makes even the beginning of the search interesting. A beautiful walk on little used paths takes you nearer and nearer the cache. Suddenly, you are there and it all becomes obvious. The vista would not be out of place on the North Shore near Lake Superior, but here it is a real surprise.

 

Heavy tree cover in summer makes this one a bit difficult. Be prepared to scramble a bit due to steep terrain, but you can�t get lost. Take care not to disturb the foliage in the area too much and, oh yes, most of the year don�t be surprised if you get wet feet. Although I have not visited early in the year, I bet this is a terrific cache in Spring when the snow melts.

 

Veterans Park by Bobhiker (nominated by Kitch)

 

If you're looking for a cache that is suitable for young kids but still a challange then this cache is for you. I have a 3 year old little girl and sometimes the Bushwacking can be a bit hard with out prior knowledge of skill levels required. I'm also looking for more to do then just a quick visit to a cache.

 

Veterans Memorial Park is a 108-acre community park that includes over two miles of walking path through woods and marsh. The park also has a volleyball court, an informal playfield, and playground equipment. The park is also home to Adventure Gardens which offers 18 holes of golf on a challenging, hilly course with numerous water hazards, split greens, and trick angles. In terms of golfing in general, this is the spot for those who like to play the game without all the tiring exercise that comes with a walk of 500 yards rather than five feet. And as mini-golf goes, this is the way it was meant to be played. With a beautifully landscaped course featuring pines and a waterfall, a concession stand no more than a hundred feet away, and lights for night putting, there's little more the recreation-bound mini-golfer could ask for. But, since you asked, there's also the added bonus that this mini-golf course is located at Veterans Memorial Park, where there are also water slides and an ample picnic area for a day-long outing.

 

The cache itself is not that hard to find but the clue will make it simple. I hate to give any hints or clues at all. The only word of advice is this trust your GPS skills and remember it is kid friendly. On the FLIP side you can make this a totally differnent experience and the level would become extremely hard. Just go at night.

 

August 2003 Featured Cache

tomslusher, posted August 29, 2003

 

I was getting somewhat concerned that we were not getting any new Featured Caches but then I thought it wasn�t fair to expect the webmasters to have to write all of these. Heck, they have caches to locate themselves. Why can�t a mere mortal write one of these? So here is my cache of the month.

 

I always love history lessons so Jabs Farm by King Boreas is tough to beat. Although it is a virtual cache so it is not very hard to complete, the trek out to the farm and the history learned is one not to miss.

 

It is quite a hike out to the cache, about 1 1/4 miles if you stay on the right trail. It might be a good idea to bring a mountain bike. But the scenery and the wildlife is well worth the extra distance. When you near the river bed, you feel like you are entering into a strange wasteland, with all the dead trees from floods.

 

You then approach the cache site and you are walked through a short narrative of the history of the farm using several placards. When I went there no one else was around and it kind of made you feel like you were back in the old days on the farm. Wondering what it would have been like living out there and trying to make a living. Or having to go get your old, feeble grandma down at the river catching fish.

 

Also, in the same park is another cache, Old Road to Louisville by Bobhiker. I had trouble and was unable to locate this cache, but I am told it is still there.

 

With these two caches being in the south metro, all Twin Cities area Geocachers should put these on the top of their list.

 

July 2003 Featured Cache

towlebooth, posted August 28, 2003

 

With the Moving 123 cache, Rock Johnson, aka R.J., has given central MN and Western WI one of the most activly pursued caches in the area.

 

Officially a "traditional" geocache, seekers quickly find that this one is anything but. The goal of this cache is not only to be found, but also to be moved by the finder from place to place. The other twist that R.J. has placed on this one is that it can only be moved to a city/town/township once. This encourages it to move greater distances.

 

This cache has been from Albertville, MN to River Falls, WI and many points in between. Nice job R.J.!!

 

 

January 2003 Featured Cache

towlebooth, posted January 12, 2003

 

The featured cache of January 2003 is The Hidden Bridge! by CB-GPSERS. I visited this cache twice last August - I enjoyed it so much I had to share it with a friend. The drive to the little town of Marine on Saint Croix alone would be worth the trip and the cache location lives up to your expectations.

 

An added feature is the fact that due to the owner's love of travelbugs you are quite likely to run into one in the cache. As I said, I visited twice in one week and saw at least four bugs in the cache over the two visits! Views are great and the whole area is worth a picture or two.

 

A perfect example of "I've driven past this spot many times, but never knew this existed!" Thanks CB, now we know and we love it.

[+The SuzyQs]

1setter does have a point I've never found a lame light pole cache in the middle of the woods!

hmmmm...... we may have to remedy that oversight.

Yup, I have found one... Stop, Shop and Cache GC6BD5. A light pole, in the middle of the woods.

[+drat19]

Don't stop in Mpls/St. Paul.

Well, Rickrich beat me to my reply, but since he also cited my name directly, I'll chime in.

 

It's true, the Twin Cities have a pretty fair cache density, but I'm here to tell you after finding almost 100 caches in that area (as well as having a fair amount of DNFs in the area, that turned out to be there after all and just beat me), by and large the cache quality is excellent. The local cachers there do well to find good locations, and hide creatively. I can't count how many wonderful parks, lakes, and trails the local cachers have taken me to by hiding in those places...places I never would have visited if I'd just been a "typical business traveler" to the area.

 

And guess what, a fair proportion of the caches I have found there are indeed micros, but they're well executed (and even the ONE (yes, one) lightpole base cache I found was in a nice spot that was worth visiting). Sure, there's the occasional example of what we're calling "lame" on this thread, but that's the point...it's only occasional; you should expect that in any cross-section of hides. It's not 50, 60, 70 of 'em in a row, like in the areas we've been discussing on this thread.

 

So how do the Twin Cities cachers keep the quality high? By SETTING A GOOD EXAMPLE in their hides when new cachers come aboard. New cachers WILL COPY hide techniques they see when they're first starting out. And by LOOKING AFTER EACH OTHER and offering constructive coaching to newcomers to keep the area's reputation solid...IT DOES MATTER.

 

-Dave R., Biloxi, MS, and frequent Twin Cities visitor/cacher

Edited April 29, 2004 by drat19

[+drat19]

Well, I will admit that a large number of micros (at least not anywhere near the numbers you are giving) is not really an issue here in Nebraska.

Once again I need to qualify your statement a little:

 

It's not "a large number of micros" that's the issue (see my post above about the Twin Cities, and also come on down to the Miss. Gulf Coast where I'm based...due to our proximity to the water our options for hiding full-size containers are a little limited, so I'd say our proportion of micros to full-size is around 65% to 35%). It's about the QUALITY OF LOCATIONS for those micros. I'm proud to report that I get "Thanks for taking me to this nice/interesting location I wouldn't have visited otherwise" and/or "Wow, what a creative hide technique" cache logs on my micro hides ALL THE TIME.

 

(I'm also not shy about admitting that I steal creative hide techniques all the time from hiders all over the country where I visit and cache - so here's a thanks and props to WE4NCS in Raleigh, GeoVamp in DFW, RJ and RickRich in the Twin Cities, Honeychile and MissAngele in Win-Sal, Moochie in Orlando, and others...come on down to Biloxi and you might see some things familiar!).

 

It is possible to hide for density/stats and still maintain location quality. OK, so maybe that means it's less dense than a cache every 0.1 mile, but still, it can be done...with a little thought and effort. That's the point folks on this thread are trying to make here.

 

-Dave R. in Biloxi

Edited April 29, 2004 by drat19

[+Doc-Dean]

'Amen' to The Lil Otter's letter.

 

Someone took the time to leave a cache for you to hunt.

 

RE: the quoted statement: It seems to me that in many cases, caches of the quality described were NOT placed "for you to hunt," but rather were placed to raise the owner's hide count and/or the find count of the people who were with the owner when it was hidden. I would also argue that little, if any, thought, time, or effort is usually expended on such placements ... they are merely stuck in the first location spotted.

If that is the case, then why should those people even bother placing caches for others to hunt?!

 

Just type of a cache page, get it approved, wait a week and archive it.

This is completely absurd but hey, it will get your "Hides" numbers up...

 

I think that the type of caches you are describing are a far minority rather than the rule.

[+bigredmed]

I suppose if my area suddenly filled up with "lame" urban micros, I might start sorting them through pocket queries and such to tailor my planned day.

The thing is that you are a very experienced cacher who knows how to filter cache listings you don't like. The quality of the experience is part of what hooked me into caching. The hikes and the places I have seen while caching as well as the puzzle of finding the cache is what converts my family and friends from "what a goofy hobby?" to "that sounds fun".

 

If the sport is to continue growing and developing, then we have to think about the experience of new players. I see this as in the HAM radio hobby I am starting. The old license requirement required Morse code. While there is reason for this, it created a barrier that prevented people from getting into the hobby who didn't want to do CW radio, even though they recognized that others did and that there were reasons to do it.

 

Geocaching faces the same barrier to the advancement of novice players. If your first experience is a walmart parking lot and a brush with the police, you aren't likely to be going after cache #2. More likely, the player finds some cool trad or micro, then tells his non-cacher friends. They give the player the "humour him till he goes away" look and the player gets a big load of negative reinforcement for caching. Pretty soon its a choice between peer-group esteem and the regular use of your etrex. We lose if the player gets someone to go with and winds up hunting a walmicro.

 

Quality control begins in the training of novice players as they develop into the place where they start wanting to hide a cache, and on-going reinforcement of the concept that caches should be cool. That the coolness of the site and the hide are the keys to a good cache. GC needs to step up in this regard by putting that in their FAQs and their hide a cache page, as well as in their approval guidelines for the approvers.

 

Coolness is largely in the eye of the beholder, but there are things that are generally agreed upon. Clever hides, unique sites, clever themes, all these would make a cache cool.

 

More cool, less crappy, and everyone leaves happy!

Edited April 29, 2004 by bigredmed

[+Mopar]

My suggested categories would be...

a) Estimated Time: 1-4 hours or All day

Estimated Distance: 1-4 miles or (put on your hikers)

c) Difficulty: 1-5

d) Terrain: 1-5

e) Wheelchair Accessible: Y/N

f) Historical: Y/N

g) Educational: Y/N

h) Special Equipment: Y/N

i) Extreme: Y/N

 

Edited a misplaced smiley. OK, I guess the smiley stays

Almost all these new categories are already covered by the current ratings, if hiders and finders would take 15 seconds to look.

 

a) Estimated Time: 1-4 hours or All day

Covered under difficulty. Most aspects of that rating relate to how long you should expect to search for a cache.

 

Estimated Distance: 1-4 miles or (put on your hikers)

Covered under terrain. The terrain rating is partially based on how far you should expect to hike from the recommended or obvious starting point.

 

c) Difficulty: 1-5

d) Terrain: 1-5

Already exists

 

e) Wheelchair Accessible: Y/N

Covered under the terrain rating. If it's wheelchair accessible it should be terrain 1. If it's not wheelchair accessible, it should be 1.5 or higher.

 

f) Historical: Y/N

g) Educational: Y/N

Not currently covered, and not easily defined. Would the Walmart lightpole micro be historical because it's the closest cache-able spot to a historical marker?

Would the park-n-ride micro be educational because you can catch a bus to the museum from here?

 

h) Special Equipment: Y/N

Covered under the current ratings. If you need special equipment to get to the cache location, it's a terrain 5. If you need special equipment to get the cache once you get to the location, it's a difficulty 5.

 

i) Extreme: Y/N

Covered under the current ratings. Any cache with a 5 difficulty or terrain is extreme by most standards.

[Find Now, Log Later?]

If that is the case, then why should those people even bother placing caches for others to hunt?! ... I think that the type of caches you are describing are a far minority rather than the rule.

 

A specific type of throw-away cache was being discussed: Caches that were placed specifically to boost an individual's hide count and the find count of those who were with them during the "placement." I am not surprised that the owners of such caches do not archive them: Logs by other cachers serve to "legitimize" the cache. Unfortunately, such caches also seem to often lead directly to a proliferation of "copy-cat" low-quality caches in the area. And most unfortunately (or most fortunately, for those who consider "any find a good find"), it is clear that some areas are now inundated with such caches.

 

We agree that such caches constitute a minority of all caches placed and are placed by a small minority of geocachers. I think we also agree that means that the majority of caches do not fit that description and were most likely placed by their owners with the intent of others enjoying the experience.

Edited April 29, 2004 by Bassoon Pilot

[+JMBella]

I can't believe this topic is three pages long. I've got to cut down on my caching and catch up here in the forums.

 

Maybe it's me but I don't really see the point in all of this. The sport is fine. There's something for everyone. Go out and enjoy it.

[+The Lil Otter]

I'd say the problem is The Otter's sense of direction and obsession with cities. She said something about it not being about the numbers (pretty obvious with 2400+ finds).

Do you even know me to label me so? I doubt that you even looked at my find locations.. I have no close caches to my home.. I've always had to travel to cache.. If I had an obsession with cities.. then why isn't Mpls/St. Paul which is ONLY 4 hrs from me still left untouched? I've always geocached for a reason.. and I don't feel like stating it here to be torn apart or hashed over or judged.

 

I am not judging the people of these cities I spoke about.. ALL I've said is because I've been there 1 year before I can state clearly of the MAJOR change in the placements. PERIOD.. I've seen this thread morph from my request for a way to find Historical/Special Interests to everyone's peeves.

 

Why can't anyone understand that I looked forward to my yearly trip down to Florida to geocache.. and that all those good memories I had fed into what I expected to yet be there. If all cities are going to become heavily loaded with these types of placements with no scenic/historical/cool etc placement area.. PLEASE then save those that want to travel for the experiences/learning by using geocaching as the driving force and guiding route. I just wished/requested for a way to filter some out..

 

And if I was into the numbers.. most that know me KNOW I could have ALOT more.. if I'm into the numbers.. why then am I requesting a filtering system to remove 98% of the very easy driveup lampost type hides?? Please do not do anymore personal attacks/judgements upon me..

 

~The Lil Otter

[magellan315]

I thought that Basson Pilots recent comments are very insightfull.

A specific type of throw-away cache was being discussed: Caches that were placed specifically to boost an individual's hide count and the find count of those who were with them during the "placement." I am not surprised that the owners of such caches do not archive them: Logs by other cachers serve to "legitimize" the cache. Unfortunately, such caches also seem to often lead directly to a proliferation of "copy-cat" low-quality caches in the area. And most unfortunately (or most fortunately, for those who consider "any find a good find"), it is clear that some areas are now inundated with such caches.

 

We agree that such caches constitute a minority of all caches placed and are placed by a small minority of geocachers. I think we also agree that means that the majority of caches do not fit that description and were most likely placed by their owners with the intent of others enjoying the experience.

 

I realize that people who place the WalMart/parking lot micros are a minority. I have one cacher in my area, while very experienced, is up to 178 caches hidden the majority of which are micros placed at Starbucks. The most recent set of caches that have been placed look as if they drove thoughout the state and far beyond the area where they can maintain them.

 

Starbuck Caches

 

So far this has been a very civil discussion, I am not trying to flame or get flamed. I wanted to give a specific example to see if anyone has any thoughts on this.

[+Monkeybrad]

For the record, this reply is not to L'il Otter but to some of the other posters. L'il Otter's post was to point out what has been happening and to ask for a way to filter it for herself, I have no problem with that. For the others though, I find it in incredibly poor taste to speak disparagingly of other peoples playgrounds. Nashville is my caching ground if I want to slam it, then I have a right to. I also hunt all over the country, and I do not believe I have ever said a bad word about another areas caches, it is just good manners. If someone allows you to eat dinner at their home, would it not be the pinnacle of poor taste to then go on a public forum and tell the world that there food was bland and tasteless or that it just plain sucks. Trust me I have seen plenty of caching towns where either the maintenance was bad area wide or every cache was hidden in the same way or everything was hidden by one person whose coordinates were consistently way off. Did it lower my level of enjoyment, yes, did it lower it enough for me to be rude, no.

 

Having hunted in several distinctly different areas of the country I will have to say that on the whole Nashville has some of the best caching out there. Mainly because of our cache density, we have something for everyone. I an area with as many caches as we have you can have someone with over 100 caches hidden and you do not fell like their caches are all you ever find. We actually have a couple of folks with over 100 hidden. Some are good and some are bad, but who am I to judge.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but I do not feel it necessary to try to tell the rest of the world how they should play this game. There are lots of lame caches out there, there are also lots of good ones, and there is no way to know what you are getting until you hunt them. Why are you all so mad at the caches hiders who place the lame caches, did they waste your time? Is your time that valuable? There are a great many caches that are long walks into the woods and when you get there it is another nondescript piece of tupperware sitting behind another nondescript tree. To me this is a lame cache. At least the light pole and guard rail hides should not waste too much of your time. But I digress, see there is the problem, we all have our view of what the perfect cache should be and the real difficulty lies in the fact that we are all correct and we are all wrong. Please quit telling folks what a "real cache" is. I agree with L'il Otter, I wish they all showed me something neat or historical, but they do not and they never will, so lighten up and let people play however they want to.

 

Your view is no more valid than anyone else's. You are responsible for the quality of your own hides, and no one else's. Lead by example, place better caches, and let Darwin sort the rest out.

[Find Now, Log Later?]

Lead by example, place better caches, and let Darwin sort the rest out.

 

How do you believe such problems will be sorted out? By attrition? By inexperienced cache hiders improving their technique? I don't think so ... A quick sampling indicates that in many areas, the majority of "dump-and-run" caches were placed by cachers with considerable experience, who usually also own a number of "good" caches. To me, that indicates a conscious decision was made to place "dump-and-runs." How will "Darwin" sort that out?

 

I think "Darwin" has already spoken ... that's why the number of film canister/hide-a-key caches attached to lightpoles/pay phones/under mailboxes/to guardrails/in the flower pot/food court at the mall, etc. are logged with such great frequency when great caches with hikes of as short as 1/8th mile (shorter than the hike from the parking lot to the mall) continue to be ignored.

Edited April 29, 2004 by Bassoon Pilot

[+Geo Ho]

Too much to read . . . WAY too much to read . . . I don't think I got half way thru . . .

 

That's all I have to say except for . . .

 

Happy caching and stuff!

[Keystone]

I wanted to give a specific example to see if anyone has any thoughts on this.

Please keep this discussion general rather than making an example of one geocacher or of one city. We could come up with a list of ten cache owners and ten cities which fit the profile of what's being discussed in this topic. Let's not go there. Thank you.

[+Polgara]

Holy smokes man!!! This is the most diverse thread yet! THere are more posts from the lurkers in here than anywhere!

[Keystone]

Please do not do anymore personal attacks/judgements upon me..

 

~The Lil Otter

Lil Otter, if you are unhappy with the direction that your topic has taken, or feel uncomfortable about what is being said about you or any other person or city, please permit me to note for you, as an infrequent but welcome forum poster, that you have the ability to close your own topic at any time. To do this, post a short note saying that's what you're doing. Then select "Close Topic" from the "Moderation Options" box at the lower left corner of the topic screen.

[MOCKBA]

I don't really see the point in all of this. The sport is fine. There's something for everyone.

No it is not fine. There are too many caches to look through all of their descriptions and logs and to decide which ones I wanna hunt, if any. Even in my home area.

I end up not hunting any urban or easy caches even though some of them may be very interesting, either unique spots or unique hides.

And on trips away from home, I pretty much avoid caching. At most, I study a half-dozen caches in the immediate vicinity of the places we stop, just to make it into a before-breakfast jog or a rest-area leg stretcher. To take a list of the regional waypoints and to convert into the trip plan, or into a list of desirable locations to visit, would be counterproductive at best.

But as Otter says, there might be a way to make the mess more searchable, at the very least to highlight the WOW cache locations.

[+Team Willow]

I whole heartedly agree with the premise articulated by the Lil Otter. I’ve been doing this for 2 ½ years. The caches that I enjoy are scenic hikes, puzzles, and good historical virtuals. I dislike urban micros or any other caches that require stealth in the sense of trying not to look suspicious. I also feel that the proliferation of pointless urban micos will ultimately be detrimental to this game as more and more will be placed in ever increasingly inappropriate places.

 

However, I must say that filtering these provides only a bandaid solution to what many feel is a real problem. Other solutions that have been provided attack the problem from the supply side by instituting more rules and regulations. Rules, Regulations and filters at best makes the game more clumsy and at worst makes it unattractive.

 

I think a better solution is to attack it from the demand side. It seems to me that the multiplicity of these pointless caches in certain areas is strictly due to certain individuals wishing to pump up there stats – either finds or hides –for what I assume are egotistical reasons. In fact, we as a group encourage this behavior by applauding those who reach excessive milestones. A simple solution would be to eliminate stats altogether. Nobody needs to know what anybody else’s numbers are. There would be no race to a million caches. All caches would then stand on their own merit, not another notch in the belt.

[+sbell111]

Monkeybrad, while I respect your point of view, I have to disagree with your post.

 

You state that people should not say bad things about an area's caches. I can't see the problem with making general statements about an area. No single cache or cacher is affected by this. Certainly, if one asked for advice on good areas it would be appropriate to answer. Why shouldn't people be free to discuss areas that did not meet the bar? Should we never share when we are underwhelmed? Wouldn't that just perpetuate the problem?

 

You state that there is no way to know whether a cache will be lame or good until you hunt them. Well, that is the subject of this thread. Let's come up with a way to develop search techniques that allow all to bypass caches that they will not enjoy.

 

You stated, 'Why are you all so mad at the caches hiders who place the lame caches, did they waste your time?' In a word, YES. Haven't we all set out on a caching trip only to quit half way through because we were bored? I know I have on a few occasions. You went on to ask, 'Is your time that valuable?' Again, my answer is YES. In the last few months, I've spent much more time out-of-state than at home. Between the needs of work while I've been away and the desire to spend time with my family when I've been home, I've spent almost no time caching. Certainly, I'd rather search for 'good' caches on the few occasions that I get to play this game.

 

You state that a traditional cache hidden in the woods is lame in your opinion and that at least the light pole and guard rail caches waste less of your time. Wouldn't you rather be able to craft your PQs to give you only the caches that you would like to go after? I know I would.

 

Regarding your 'Let Darwin sort it out' comment, this is how the problem progresses. Lame caches are placed. No one says anything about it. More are placed. A few people mention that they are not satisfying, but a very vocal minority attack them. The few individuals stop mentioning the problem, or quit the game. More lame caches are placed.

 

Welcome to Cacheville. The next cache tour will begin in 30 minutes...

[+Marky]

Too much to read . . . WAY too much to read . . . I don't think I got half way thru . . .

 

That's all I have to say except for  . . .

 

Happy caching and stuff! 

Of all the opinions stated in this thread, yours is the one I can relate to the most.

 

--Marky

[+paintfiction]

I realize that people who place the WalMart/parking lot micros are a minority. I have one cacher in my area, while very experienced, is up to 178 caches hidden the majority of which are micros placed at Starbucks. The most recent set of caches that have been placed look as if they drove thoughout the state and far beyond the area where they can maintain them.

 

Starbuck Caches

 

So far this has been a very civil discussion, I am not trying to flame or get flamed. I wanted to give a specific example to see if anyone has any thoughts on this.

 

If you don't want to flame - then don't do it! Subtlety doesn't excuse the motive.

 

I know SBUX - she is a very intelligent, thoughtful, and sweet person. Starbucks is her signature place - literally and figuratively. SBUX = NYSE ticker symbol for Starbucks. Her micros at Starbucks are something I hope to find when I am out and about. It reminds me of my good friend to find one. As for her ability to maintain the caches, she travels far and wide and in cases where she may not be back for a while I am sure she has a local geocacher friend who takes care of maintenance if needed. I like the idea of "serial" caches. Here in Florida, Overrover started placing micros in a certain spot near Cracker Barrel restaurants. Others have followed her lead and continued the series. It's fun! Isn't that the point? Was there a point to your post other than to put SBUX under scrutiny? If so, I missed it. If you merely wanted comments, you got mine.

 

Jim

[+paintfiction]

For the record, this reply is not to L'il Otter but to some of the other posters.  For the others though, I find it in incredibly poor taste to speak disparagingly of other peoples playgrounds.  Nashville is my caching ground if I want to slam it, then I have a right to.  I also hunt all over the country, and I do not believe I have ever said a bad word about another areas caches, it is just good manners. 

 

Your view is no more valid than anyone else's.  You are responsible for the quality of your own hides, and no one else's.  Lead by example, place better caches, and let Darwin sort the rest out.

AMEN!

 

Well said MonkeyBrad! As a member of the CHB, I can speak for the 6 of us when I say Nashville was great! There were lame caches - just like ALMOST anywhere. I threw in "almost" to belay the cachers who would proceed to let us know that Norman, OK (or wherever) has zero lame caches. The lame caches have escaped my memory - no loss - they were fun for a moment. What I do remember are the excellent hides, beautiful parks, interesting historical spots, etc. You (and many others) should be commended for the quality of your hides. Thank you.

 

Jim

 

P.S. Note to reader - the real point of MBs post (IMO) was to ask everyone to have some manners! It's easy to be blunt or even rude when not face to face. Let's be more than civilized in here - let's be polite.

[magellan315]

There was no intent to place SBUX under srctinity, I was using this as a local example. If you had read the earlier posts you noticed that Keystone has already addressed this issue.

 

Frankly I fail to see the need for this type of cache placement, yeah she likes Starbucks, yes her user name matches their stock symbol, in my opinion her caches are nothing more than "ooh look a Starbucks". That is my opinion, just like you are entitled to yours on this subject.

 

If there was something special about a specific Starbucks like its the first one in a state or a unique location that might be an improvement. Otherwise its just some much Geolitter.

 

Its to bad becuase most of her earlier caches had a lot more thought put into them. And yes if you noticed in her profile she has been e-mailed about this, but shows no signs of placing the quality caches like the in the past. Or at the very least putting more effort into hiding micros then just finding a Starbucks.

 

As I have stated in previous posts Ihave no objections to micros and I see the need and appeal for them. But I would like to see more effort put into them then "oohh look a Starbucks/Walmart/Rest stop/light post.

Edited April 29, 2004 by magellan315

[+drat19]

I think one of the conclusions that has been coming out of this thread goes to Lil Otter's original post: Not necessarily to outlaw the profileration of what many on this thread (including myself) are calling "lame", but to implement a way to FILTER THEM OUT (short of having to read thru every log) before planning a caching outing. Time IS valuable, and memories ARE precious. (Similarly, if someone wants to plan an outing and crank numbers on nothing but drive-ups, they should be able to filter those IN as well.)

 

Other comments (including many from me) have been an ACCURATE pointing out of the fact that we are concerned (and often frustrated) that this proliferation is reaching a point where in many places it's the "norm"...that in these places it's "what our game has become". While it's true that in these areas "that's not all there is", it's also true that in these areas it's so widespread that it has affected the overall perception.

 

Have I missed something?

-Dave R.

[magellan315]

Have to give Drat19 a big, ditto, on his post. As I had mentioned in an early post I think there are Geocachers out there who would appreciate the creation of a "micro" icon. Just like there are icons for traditonals, virtuals, multis, ect. Given the proliferation of micros in some areas it would help if we had a way to identifiy when pulling up an entire page of caches without having to read each page.

Edited April 29, 2004 by magellan315