drat19

you hit the nail on the head there. LOCATION! HIDE ! would it be totally wrong saying that hiding a regular size container would by definition require a "better" location? not all micros/nanos are lame, just that compared to regulars, there is more % of nanos/micros that are lame. all bulls are cattle, but not all cattle are bulls. if the count/stats would be disabled and no more smileys handed out for a find i know i would keep on hunting multis or go for the longer walks upto a cache (be it micro or regular) and i would completly disgard these "lame" nanos, coz without the +1 there is NO reason left to even bother with these. but would "PnG" lovers still be lifting lampostskirts on a parking lot? Exactly! Micro Spew is all about the "+1", and as far as I'm concerned anyone who says differently is denying the truth about them. (Again, NOT ALL MICROS, just the flooding of areas with uninspiring ones.) The very first cache I found back in '02 was a micro, and it did not deter me from changing my life (at the time) by taking up this game. Fortunately, that was pretty much the ONLY micro hidden in my area at the time...the next TENS of caches I found were Regulars, all in cool locations I never knew about before, where I could search pretty much undetected. And I couldn't stop talking to pretty much everyone I knew about what a great new sport/game/hobby I had discovered. I'm not sure I would have had the same reaction if the first TENS of caches I had found were PNG micros.

I don't venture into the Forums much anymore, but as older-timers here know I've been railing against Spewed Micros (not ALL micros, just the uninspired Spew ) for years. (The "caching kindred spirits of mine" PA cachers holding the Burning Micro event even give me a shout-out on the cache page when they hold this event every year...how flattering to be so famous/infamous! ). Obviously I gave up "the good fight" against Micro Spew due to it being unwinnable against The Geocaching Mass Market that has also obviously spoken and has responded with supply in response to demand, so let's just sum it all up: Hiders of Spewed Micros , like all hiders of all qualities of caches, like to feel as if they are "giving back" to the caching community, which is all good. However, by spewing tens (or more) Spewed Micros , they are able to feel they've "given back" with a minimum of effort and cost. And as an added bonus, they get additional ego gratification with lots of "Found It" Emails peppering their Inboxes, because after all, a large population of cachers LOVES to crank their numbers on these generally-easy grabs. ("Cool! Another finder Email! I gave back to the game and people must love me!") Finders of Spewed Micros get the ego gratification of watching their stat numbers increase quickly, and depending on where they live, additional ego grat if honored in local on-line Forums or Geo-events. In fact, in my home state of MS, we take our "Milestones" very seriously...our local organization has an informal process in place to ensure that all those who reach these milestones are properly honored at local Events. The difference in MS, though (and one of the advantages of being a small state), is that through unabashed and unashamed peer pressure, we're able to keep Micro Spew to a minimum in most of our areas, meaning that those who do the majority of their caching in MS and reach those milestones have generally "earned" their recognition through a majority of hunts of quality caches in quality locations worth visiting. We have few enough 1K- and 2K-find cachers based in MS that it still does matter, getting-recognized-for-your-stats-wise. And when we get newer cachers who start placing Spew , it doesn't take long for them to get a reputation for it and public or private bashing in the local community ("We have a new cacher in the Jackson (or Starkville or Oxford or Coast) area who's dropping micros everywhere, so don't expect much if you hunt for one of that hider's caches"). Some don't get the message, but most do, and overall quality remains relatively high state-wide. As I stated above, I gave up "the good fight"...now I just accept it for what it is, and recently have been trying to find ways to enjoy the game again. I am gratified to see, though, that years after I was one of the few voices railing against this trend, more recently those who share my viewpoint are raising their voices more forcefully now, and so maybe there is hope (I have personally experienced this to be the case in my "second" home in Twin Cities, MN...I've done a lot of caching there recently and have found more caches/hides/hikes of quality than not).

I tried, I really did.

This was exactly the one I was thinking of when I opened this thread, and I was both glad and disappointed to find that someone else also posted it before I did. Definitely my favorite handle that I've seen around here. The only reference I can think of for it was that Pledge furniture polish used to advertise itself as being "Lemon Fresh"...if that's the reference he/she used as well, it's just totally silly - and that's what makes it great.

Appears to be fixed now...thanks.

It has happened to me too...what's the fix???

As a fellow 2G cacher, I agree with every word of your post, RK (esp. the part about going to someone else's town and out-stat'ing the locals back in the day...I did that over a 2-week period my first business trip to Minneapolis back in '03...all the locals wanted to know who that guy was from Mississippi who was slamming through all their caches and running up numbers (I bagged 61 caches over a 2-week period and that was considered PROLIFIC!)) (oh, and also about how 100 finds back in the day meant 1000s of miles on our rigs - too true!).

I'll definitely second this one! Ah, the good ol' days of having to drive more than quite a few miles between hides, and the knowledge that they would almost always be worth the drive because the first gen folks only hid caches in places "worth visiting".

Speaking only for myself (but quite possibly interpreting TG's post), in my mind the classification of "LPCs" also "represents" other caches of similar "quality", to include random guardrails, tossed into bushes, and placed under/on store dumpsters. Basically, the "quick/easy/cheap/just for stats" classification of caches. FWIW....

Very true! The difference is that it didn't take long for that type of hide to eventually "phase out". Not so the LPC and its equivalents (see my previous post above re equivalents).

I know I'm going to regret wading back into one of these discussions after staying the heck out of the forums for so long, mostly because of these discussions, but here's my $.02: (1) Any cacher's first LPC find: "Cool! I never thought about finding a cache in one of these! How clever!" (I readily admit that this was my reaction to my first LPC find. I would also point out that I logged DNFs on my first 3 LPC hunts before I finally figured out that one of those skirts could actually be lifted. Of course, this was back in '02 before this type of hide became so widespread...there really was a "creativity" to it back then.) (2) Any cacher's first LPC hide: "Cool! I can hide one of these cheaply and easily and make a contribution to my caching community!" (3) Same cacher placing several or many more LPC hides: "Cool! It cost me next to nothing to put these caches out, and people must like 'em because I get so many "Found it" Emails! I'll drive around and put out more!" (4) Multiple cachers with the same mindset as (3) above: Results in pages and pages (and pages and pages) of these types of caches, giving newcomers to the game the impression that this type of hide is the "norm". (5) Local cachers logging scads of LPC finds: "Cool! Look at how many quick and easy stats we're ringing up! If we keep running up our numbers, maybe we, too, can be deified in our regional caching forums, or at the next event!" Things to know: I deem guardrail caches to be equivalent to LPCs in terms of their effects on the caching community at large...LPCs may "represent" the issue, but to me guardrail caches are no different. Nor are micros tossed into "any ol' bush". I'm not going to argue what's wrong with LPC/guardrail hides and their effect on our game at large...my opinions on that are well documented. I'm just going to make this point: It's not that these types of hides EXIST; it's their PREVALENCE. And why are they so prevalent? These words: Cheap. Easy. Quick. Stats. Recognition/ego grat IN SOME CIRCLES for said stats. And sadly, I agree with the majority now: If that's how folks want to play, who am I to stop them? (Longtime posters here know that was not always my position on this. I have since recognized that trying to change the game or its players is a losing battle...this is the price we all have paid for evolving from an "underground" game to a "mass market" game - a lowering of overall standards. And it's why I seldom play anymore.)

You can use Babel Fish to translate for you. It's not perfect, but should get the idea across. Babel Fish Good luck and good fortune on your trip. The Laurentians are beautiful. P.S. One most important phrase you will be using: "Où est le prochain arrêt de repos, svp ?" Yes, that WILL be important (I was even able to translate it without Babel Fish!).

Sigh, all I remember is "Je ne comprend pas"! (did I spell that right?) I *am* planning to brush up on my basic travel-related French phrases before the trip, though!

Heh! So it looks like I was a few years ahead of my time when I complained about the preponderance of them there in your area 4 or so years ago! Maybe I'll have to come on back and give Nashville a fresh chance. (This is a totally non-sarcastic post, Brad.) It should be noted that LPMs still exist in the area. Brad has no doubt largely cleared the area so is likely pretty much only going after recent hides, where I still am looking for caches that have been in place for a few years. Therefore, he doesn't come across them often while I find them with some frequency. Oh, I'm sure they do (still exist there), which is a main reason I seldom cache anymore. Too much crap/chaff everywhere, not enough wheat.

Update: Right now our leading candidate is a hike up the trails of Mont Tremblant. Looks like we can hike up the mountain and then ride the gondola back down...very similar to how we did Sulphur Mountain in Banff back in '03 (which also had a virt cache back then...bonus!). We're also looking at a day's walking tour of Montreal as part of the trip...looking for good cache-along-the-way recommendations as well as just general tips, of course. I'll find all the "must see" sites, but always up for off-the-beaten-path ideas (and of course I'll search cache listings to help with that!). Continued thanks, friends.

Heh! So it looks like I was a few years ahead of my time when I complained about the preponderance of them there in your area 4 or so years ago! Maybe I'll have to come on back and give Nashville a fresh chance. (This is a totally non-sarcastic post, Brad.)

A buddy and I are looking at a trip to Quebec in September that would include a day or two in the Laurentians, where we would like to do a half-day or so "signature hike" (which does or does not have to include picking up a cache or two along the way...so Nat'l Parks are part of our options). Relative GC terrain rating of a max of 3.5 or 4, on marked trails, is what we like to do on trips like this. I'm already researching this using typical travel planning tools, but of course I'm thinking that who would know quality hiking options better than my fellow Geocachers? I went over to the Geocaching Quebec org web site, but darn it it's all in French (go figure!). (Case in point: On our trip to the Maritimes back in '04, the Maritimes cachers on their org web site offered plenty of great suggestions, and in fact the off-the-beaten-path hike we were recommended to do in PEI was one of the real highlights of our trip!). So, I'm soliciting similar recommendations for the Laurentians. Thanks.

I think the articles that Kit Fox pasted in above in this thread are excellent. Here's another one that I wrote that you might also find helpful: Click me

Dan's Stats Yes, accessible stats provided either by GC.Com or some third party would be a welcome addition. I've not seen any references to stat programs that work with Mac OSX How many here even know of Dan's great stats? Not just smilies but all stats sliced and diced any way you'd like them. For me a big part of Geocaching died when Dan's Stats went away. +1! I'm fairly confident that a good number of the oldtimers in Mississippi gradually faded away from the game because the "friendly in-state competition" that we had back then was lost when Dan's Stats went away. (And those stats did NOT diminish our state's overall cache quality back then, by the way!)

I'll echo and amplify Monkeybrad's comments as a longtime Mississippi-based cacher (for which state he also served as reviewer for the majority of the past 5 years)...thanks for the great service, Joe.

Well, it *is* very dry up here in MN this time of year! I remember that from my years in NW Wisconsin. Everything got really staticy and my skin got so dry it always itched. When I parked my car at work, it felt like I was parking on an ice skating rink. Actually I was! Heh, tell me about it! Try being from where I'm from (<---) and spending workweeks here in MN and then weekends at home in the opposite climate!

Well, it *is* very dry up here in MN this time of year!

Did they sign the logs, at all, or did they not even find the caches? (I know, how dare I look for the grey?) Much as I hate to admit it (ever!), I was also thinking the same thing as sbell on this matter. Can you imagine the reaction of a group of Numbers Ho's who made a special trip to a region to (falsely, apparently) run up numbers, only to lose 80% of them after the fact?!? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Perhaps many people hide and find these because they like to hide and find them, just like they keep saying; plus The stats are never going to go away. Ever. That's not 'the problem' and it wouldn't solve 'the problem'. I know the stats are never going to go away, despite the above points. Apparently, neither is "the problem". That's why I, for the most part, have (gone away). The mass market has spoken, and it's marketing to someone other than me.

Ed, as one of the Deep Dixie region's original Numbers Ho's (since reformed!), I never thought I'd say this to you re your above-quoted post, but: I AGREE! Get rid of the stats and you not only solve the bogus logging problem, but you also solve Micro Spew - after all, what other incentive would cachers have to both hide and find so much UTTER CRAP (not ALL micros, just the Spew )? And you also stop the practice of deifying high-number cachers, and treat everyone equally, as regards "how people are perceived at events"...maybe folks would still get recognized for their longevity or for their reputations as great hiders or creative log-writers, but not just for their stats.