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geocaching in illegal areas


Manager

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In the article in the Wisconsin State Journal of Sunday 8/24, it showed geocaching activities in areas that were illegal for the public to enter. I am concerned about disregarding the law to pursue this activity when there are limitless areas that are legal to enter. In any activity, if the participants get a reputation for causing problems, whether it is deserved or not, or whether it is only a small minority, restrictions usually follow. I think it benefits any recreational activity if the participants cooperate with landowners and local agencies.

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I saw the on-line version of the article..I notice just a smidgeon of discussion about asking permission..I personally think all caches should be located with permission, and the cache page should acknowledge permission has been granted. I avoided one cache 2 weeks ago because it just felt like I was trespassing and there was no mention on the page that permission was granted.

 

"There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?"

 

[This message was edited by Tikiroy on August 25, 2003 at 01:14 PM.]

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WSJ Geocaching Article

 

WSJ GPS article

 

Hrm... I can't figure out what's wrong with these links, but here is the page to their website and you can do a search from there: www.madison.com

 

I'm not sure if the online story is different than what was printed (I can't see why it would be) - but I only see mention of an abandoned railroad tunnel. I assume that's the illegal area.

 

If there is a problem with the cache, contact the owner. If the owner doesn't respond - log an archival note or contact the Admin.

 

I understand your concern about the image of geocachers - but the proper way to handle this (to insure the 'image' is maintained tastefully) - is to contact the cache owner.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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Permission is good

 

Finding that a site in an area that for all other activities is managed the same as all other similar areas, but suddenly is closed to geocaching only is a real occurence and is a pain. Makes the cache owner look bad, creates havoc for the finders. This is a pet peeve of mine ever since one of my caches was suddenly "not allowed" despite the fact that it was in a state park and all other state parks have geocaches in them legally and without any formal permission.

 

Before we pass judgement, we should hear from the owners. Posting the caches and emailing the owners is only fair.

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nebraskache/

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High-tech Hide And Seek

Geocachers Use Gps Unites In A Sort Of Treasure Hunt

 

Wisconsin State Journal :: DAYBREAK :: I1

Sunday, August 24, 2003

Matt Hagengruber Wisconsin State Journal

TOWN OF EXETER

As Jeff and Bonnie Little approached the abandonded railroad tunnel, the spookiness set in, almost on cue. The temperature dropped, the skies went gray and the thunder echoed in the steep rock walls leading to the tunnel. And finally, greeting the Littles as they approached the tunnel, a fog crept out from inside.

The Littles - a 50-something couple from the Baraboo area - are geocachers, and they were hunting a cache hidden somewhere near the tunnel. They'd already found two caches that day at different sites in Dane County, but with this one, with a name like "Tunnel of Terror," they knew it would be a good one.

 

They scrounged around the loose limestone rocks looking for the Tupperware bin that contained the treasure. One of their dogs, a Cocker Spaniel named Madison, was busy chasing bugs in mud puddles. The other dog, a Gordon Setter named Murray, seemed more intent on finding the box than the Littles.

 

Finally, looking at a tall pile of rocks, Jeff raised his hand. "I have a find."

 

Inside the bin was a good mix of junk: pencils, plastic bugs, Halloween toys, some stickers, a log book. That's it. No jewels, alternate film endings or anything worth more than a buck or two.

 

Geocaching is one of those new hobbies that blends high-tech with hiking boots and poison ivy. Cachers use their global positioning units - GPS - to track down plastic bins that other cachers hide in the woods. They mark the spot on their GPS unit, log on to www.geocaching.com and write up their hide. Cachers like the Littles, who call themselves weekend hunters, then simply type in their ZIP code at the site and a list of caches pops up.

 

The Littles, cachers since January 2002, stumbled onto the sport when Jeff ran into two cachers at Mirror Lake State Park. It also gave them a good reason to use that GPS thing Jeff bought for Bonnie.

 

"Jeff came back and told me what they were doing, and I said, 'We're doing this,' " she said. "I asked Jeff for a pedometer and he buys me this GPS."

 

The Littles took a sticker from the tunnel cache and left a wooden train whistle and two plastic hot dogs. Their caching handle is "Hot Dogs Off Trail," so they leave the little plastic sausages at every cache they find. They always sign the log book in the cache and repeat their entries on the Web site.

 

They say the philosophy is simple: if you take something, leave something. Don't leave food, knives, drugs or any other junk that could spell trouble. And when they "claim" a cache on the Web site, they often leave a little note telling of the cache's condition.

 

"People find a neat spot that they want to share with others, and this is their way of getting you there," Jeff said.

 

Ken Braband, president of the Wisconsin Geocaching Association, said the sport is about three years old and picking up steam.

 

"When I started doing this in February of 2001, I think there were only about four geocachers in Wisconsin," he said. "Now I'm guessing there's about 500 or 600 of us. It can be like a walk down a sidewalk or a mountain climb or even a scuba dive."

 

The tunnel cache was the Littles' 209th cache. They have plenty to go. A simple zip code search of the Madison area returns more than 1,000 caches in Wisconsin. The Web site lists more than 60,000 caches in 180 countries, from a mountaintop cache in Bhutan to one in downtown Monrovia, the capital of Liberia.

 

Wisconsin's Web site, www.wi-geocaching.com, boasts more than 200 registered members, and they plan to get together today at Devils Lake State Park for their annual picnic. First-timers are welcome.

 

Caches can be hard or easy to find, depending on who hides them. They can also hide virtual caches, which just lead people to a cool bluff or riverbank or something worth seeing. The Littles hunted a virtual cache at a park in southern Dane County that slowly took them uphill to a prairie that celebrates America's bicentennial.

 

Cachers also pick up travel bugs, which are special little items that make their way around the country. The bug wears a little dog tag with a code number so it can be tracked as it travels to different caches.

 

The Littles sent off a plastic George Washington that they hope will tour the original 13 U.S. colonies. Right now it's on its way to New Jersey, the last colony it needs to visit.

 

Both Braband and the Littles agree that geocaching is the next big hobby to sweep America. Local sporting goods stores say they get a lot of GPS queries from first-time cachers, and the Wisconsin group's annual picnic is expected to draw a few hundred people.

 

"It used to be under the radar. You'd go out and hide things in parks and wouldn't ask permission, but now it's become so well-known that you can't do that anymore," Braband said. "We're no longer under the radar."

 

stunod_sig.gif

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

Eamus Catuli AC145895

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quote:
Originally posted by Manager:

In the article in the Wisconsin State Journal of Sunday 8/24, it showed geocaching activities in areas that were illegal for the public to enter.


 

If the above is in fact the article you were referring to, please point out to me where they entered the tunnel.

 

Also, it is not always possible to secure permission to place a cache. Many times we've run into the "don't ask, don't tell" attitude of land managers. Many land managers are warm to the idea, but don't want to expose themselves to liability.

 

We almost always ask first. It will depend on the placement on whether or not we ask. No impact and ultra low impact caches don't warrant nearly the concern as those in sensitive environs.

 

CR

 

72057_2000.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Manager:

In the article in the Wisconsin State Journal of Sunday 8/24, it showed geocaching activities in areas that were illegal for the public to enter. I am concerned about disregarding the law to pursue this activity when there are limitless areas that are legal to enter. In any activity, if the participants get a reputation for causing problems, whether it is deserved or not, or whether it is only a small minority, restrictions usually follow. I think it benefits any recreational activity if the participants cooperate with landowners and local agencies.


 

Spoken like a true geocacher eh?

 

Anyone else notice this was Manager's first post ever??? A disgruntled land owner perhaps?

 

Not that I'm saying he or she shouldn't have a say in matters like this, but instead of coming here in a huff and coldly espousing his or her opinions, why not take Brian's approach? icon_confused.gif

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quote:
Jeff raised his hand. "I have a find."


How many other people laughed when they read this? I know that this is probably distorted by the reporter, but it just sounded, well, a bit too polite. Of course, maybe they were on their best behavior with the reporter there.

 

I remember when we went caching with Woof!, Kusanagi and a reporter (and photographer). Woof! found the cache first, and didn't say anything. She just stood back and watched me flail around looking for it. She thought that was pretty fun. icon_wink.gif

 

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

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quote:
Originally posted by Manager:

In the article in the Wisconsin State Journal of Sunday 8/24, it showed geocaching activities in areas that were illegal for the public to enter. I am concerned about disregarding the law to pursue this activity when there are limitless areas that are legal to enter. In any activity, if the participants get a reputation for causing problems, whether it is deserved or not, or whether it is only a small minority, restrictions usually follow. I think it benefits any recreational activity if the participants cooperate with landowners and local agencies.


 

Thank you for registering today to bring this to our attention, MANAGER.

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quote:
Originally posted by Manager:

I am concerned about disregarding the law to pursue this activity when there are limitless areas that are legal to enter.


 

All here agree with you. If you have found one that you believe is placed illegally, please bring it to the attention of the admins of this site. If they agree, it will be removed immediately.

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My response to Manager's post: Geocaching.com has developed definite guidelines concerning obtaining permission of land owners/managers before placing caches. Please refer to How To Place a Cache to see the sites policy on placement of caches. If you believe a cache is place inappropriately, please email the cache owner. As a new member, this information is readily available to you from the page describing a particular cache. If the cache owner does not respond, you may submit a request to have the cache archived and a representative of geocaching.com should contact you soon.

 

My response to the forums: I don't see anything wrong with what Manager had to say. In fact, his words are pretty much the official policy of geocaching.com.

 

The following is quoted from the "How to place a cache" page on this site:

If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. You will be in violation of federal regulation by placing a cache in any area administered by the National Park Service (US). The National Park regulations are intended to protect the fragile environment, and historical and cultural areas found in the parks.

 

I will say that Manager's post begins in a somewhat inflamatory fashion: ''showed geocaching activities in areas that were illegal for the public to enter'' The article (posted above by stunod) clearly does not make any direct mention of such. The only reference to permission concerning property is made in the final paragraph of the article. I think what it says has some merit. When geocaching began, I feel it was more cavalier. Hiding in areas that were off limits, pursuing activities in secrecy, etc... That was two to three years ago when entire states had only a few caches in them. Those days are behind us.

 

Sure mistakes are made and some caches are placed inappropriately. But a system is in place to police such mistakes. Contact the cache owner and ask them to rectify the problem; if this fails, contact geocaching.com authorities and ask them to remove the cache from the site.

 

I think we, as established participants in this sport, could do a better job of allaying fears such as those posted by Manager in these forums and forego the bashing of the poster. One post or one thousand posts by an individual should not matter. Often, too many responses pertain to the person posting the thread and not the content.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I want to see a sunrise, I'll STAY up for it!

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Is Stunod's post the article that manager is talking about? It can't be, it never mentions ANY caches in ANY areas that are not 'legal to enter'.

 

So what exactly is manager's problem? Is he paranoid? Is his life so miserable that he has to read something into an article, then go to the trouble of registering on this site just to give people crap about his imagined illegal activity?

 

Now that you are registered manager, how about using the search function to find examples of caches located in areas that are 'illegal for the public to enter' then if you find one (and you might but it would take a lot of looking) use the 'this cache should be archived' button on the cache description page and explain the problem.

If you need help using the search function, I'd be glad to help you.

 

Any cache hider that places a cache in an area 'illegal for the public to enter' would hear about it in the logs, and would probably have it archived shortly, and most likely take a bit of flak for it. So most cachers are very careful about that. Sometimes one might slip through the cracks, but not for long, and there are ways of correcting those few problems.

 

So what is your problem manager, do you have any facts, or just your imagination?

Do you always read one article, then consider yourself an expert on a subject, and go around lecturing people? Did you do any other research? Do you realize the press almost never gives an accurate account of anything? (even though in this case I don't see what the problem is with this article).

 

If you have an answer to any of these questions, please post them, otherwise your ignorance of the subject you posted about, will remain obvious.

 

___________________________________________________________

If trees could scream, would we still cut them down?

Well, maybe if they screamed all the time, for no reason.

Click here for my Geocaching pictures and Here (newest)

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I don't understand - where did the cachers go that was not open to the public?

 

Even the cache page said,

quote:
placed near an abandoned railroad tunnel.
---- the operative word is NEAR.

 

Also, I don't know the area but a lot of abandoned rail areas have been made bicycle/walking trails, has this area become a trail?

 

There was nothing wrong with what Manager had to say, but how often do we have to hear it and how often do we have to defend ourselves?

 

"The hardest thing to find is something that's not there!"

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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

Oh and if it ain't posted. It aint illegal.


Thats not true in most states. I don't have to put a sign up telling you not to trespass on my property. It's illegal for you to be here without my permission, sign or no sign. It's your responsibility to make sure you are not someplace illegal, not mine.

 

"(Mopar is) good to have around and kick. Like an ugly puppy" - Jeremy

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Given:

 

Member Since: Monday, August 25, 2003

 

Obviously ,o finds or anything on 'Managers' stats page...

 

It sorta' a moot point now isn't it? (Perhaps even a troll?)

 

Sorta' funny how many people have responded to this thread saying essentially the same thing.

 

(Yes, me included..)

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

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quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:

I don't have to put a sign up telling you not to trespass on my property. It's illegal for you to be here without my permission, sign or no sign. It's your responsibility to make sure you are not someplace illegal, not mine.


Boy am I glad Tennessee isn't like that.

Here it isn't trespassing unless it's posted.

Everyone should check the law in their home state to see which applies to them.

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quote:
Originally posted by Zoboomafoo:

 

Spoken like a true geocacher eh?

 

Anyone else notice this was Manager's first post ever??? A disgruntled land owner perhaps?

 

Not that I'm saying he or she shouldn't have a say in matters like this, but instead of coming here in a huff and coldly espousing his or her opinions, why not take Brian's

approach? icon_confused.gif


 

Good point...now I wonder why I responded at all....never mind icon_rolleyes.gif

 

"There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?"

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Sissy-n-CR wisely wrote:

quote:
Many times we've run into the "don't ask, don't tell" attitude of land managers. Many land managers are warm to the idea, but don't want to expose themselves to liability.


 

This is why I never ask: to protect the land manager. I never hide a cache on private property, but it's a much better defence for the city parks department to say ''we didn't know there was a geocache near the edge of the cliff'' than to have to say ''yes, we approved a geocache near the edge of the cliff, but you must've been a fool to fall off.''

 

Once, I asked a private (corporate park) landowner for permission. They said no, citing liability reasons. Two weeks later, someone else placed a cache there without asking. The landowner subsequently told me that they weren't going to chase it down and remove it. It's still there more than a year later.

 

It's better for land managers to not know, from a liability standpoint.

 

See my comments from early last year here.

 

WWJD? JW RTFM.

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quote:
Originally posted by travisl:

Sissy-n-CR wisely wrote:

 

This is why I never ask: to protect the land manager. I never hide a cache on private property, but it's a much better defence for the city parks department to say ''we didn't know there was a geocache near the edge of the cliff'' than to have to say ''yes, we approved a geocache near the edge of the cliff, but you must've been a fool to fall off.''

 


 

Went to Ireland a couple of years ago. They have these cliffs over the North Atlantic. The Cliffs of Mohr. They are 300 feet straight down into the frigid surf and rocks. Wind blows real hard at times. They have a trail leading right up to the very edge of the cliff with a a little 4X6 inch sign saying that these cliffs are dangerous and they didn't recommend that you go any further, but the trail goes down to the lip of the cliff anyway.

We guessed that the Irish figure that if you are stupid enough to walk on the crumbling edge of a cliff 300 feet above freezing water and jagged rocks that you can take responsibility for your own injuries.

 

Private property is off limits without permission. No one in the US would give permission because of fear of lawyers. Where is King Richard when we need him?

 

My pet peeve is the public land with idiosyncratic rule variations. This park is legal and that park is not (without any explanation as to why 2 parks that are the same, and run by the same group are treated completely differently.)

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nebraskache/

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quote:
bigredmed wrote:

 

Went to Ireland a couple of years ago. They have these cliffs over the North Atlantic. The Cliffs of Mohr. They are 300 feet straight down into the frigid surf and rocks. Wind blows real hard at times. They have a trail leading right up to the very edge of the cliff with a a little 4X6 inch sign saying that these cliffs are dangerous and they didn't recommend that you go any further, but the trail goes down to the lip of the cliff anyway.

We guessed that the Irish figure that if you are stupid enough to walk on the crumbling edge of a cliff 300 feet above freezing water and jagged rocks that you can take responsibility for your own injuries.


 

It's a marvellous place! I walked past the sign and all along the cliff edge a few years ago... icon_smile.gif

 

They're over 600 feet high, actually.

 

Bill

 

-------------------------------

"Ah, take the Cache and let the Credit go..."

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, trans. Edward Fitzgerald

 

[This message was edited by Bill D (wwh) on August 26, 2003 at 02:36 PM.]

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My, I certainly upset some people. First, I am not a geocacher. (though I'd like to) I would like to know more about the activity so we can provide more opportunities on the lands that I manage. Second, The area that was described in the article is in fact closed to the public due to safety and liability reasons. It is posted as such. I thought that rather than write these people tickets, I would offer a friendly suggestion. It seems some people have not taken my comment as I intended.

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quote:
Originally posted by Manager:

My, I certainly upset some people. First, I am not a geocacher. (though I'd like to) I would like to know more about the activity so we can provide more opportunities on the lands that I manage. Second, The area that was described in the article is in fact closed to the public due to safety and liability reasons. It is posted as such. I thought that rather than write these people tickets, I would offer a friendly suggestion. It seems some people have not taken my comment as I intended.


 

I think the reaction was mostly based the appearance that you showed up, complained and then disappeared. Also, posts that criticize or raise a concern are hard to take seriously when they require the users to hunt down specifics before responding. That sort of sucked some of the vailidity out of your post.

 

The community here is full of people who have expressed the same concerns, and who want to address stuff like this without feeling like they've been trolled by the person who starts the thread.

 

I suppose the best course of action to getting concerns addressed is to talk first to the person who placed the cache, next to the person who OK'ed it. Going directly to the forums will do the least to fix a specific problem like this, but it will certainly "create more heat than light."

 

--------------------

You have the right to defend yourself, even when geocaching!

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quote:
Originally posted by mckee:

I suppose the best course of action to getting concerns addressed is to talk first to the person who placed the cache, next to the person who OK'ed it. Going directly to the forums will do the least to fix a specific problem like this, but it will certainly "create more heat than light."


 

I agree....you don't have to even point out a name or anything because others will search it out and point to it for you.

 

Brian

 

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

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quote:
Originally posted by Manager:

My, I certainly upset some people. First, I am not a geocacher. (though I'd like to) I would like to know more about the activity so we can provide more opportunities on the lands that I manage. Second, The area that was described in the article is in fact closed to the public due to safety and liability reasons. It is posted as such. I thought that rather than write these people tickets, I would offer a friendly suggestion. It seems some people have not taken my comment as I intended.


 

Sorry I didn't jump into this sooner. I am an admin for geocaching.com. If you email me the info on the caches in question I will be happy to contact the cache owners. We want geocaching to be a safe activity and if these locations are not safe then the caches should be relocated or archived. Would you be willing to work with the cache owners to find a more appropriate location near by?? That would be a win/win situation.

 

On a side note I appreciate that fact that you are open minded about geocaching. Often when presented with something new, people react negativly. It's much easier to say no than to take the time to learn more and make an informed decision. I hope that as you learn more about geocaching you will discover how good it can be for the areas you manage.

 

Janet

Team Misguided

 

___________________________________________________________

Don't mind us, we're just looking for tupperware in this bush.

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Even better, Manager, would be to write to Ken Braband at the www.wi-geocaching.com site. Wisconsin has their own admin who approves caches. They can handle the cache you have concerns about directly (contacting the cacher, removal, archiving the cache, etc.). Ken is a great guy and I know the Wisconson group wants to work with you in any way. They have their own admin and approved their own caches specifically because of the sensative issues in Wisconsin.

 

I hope that gets you in the right direction.

 

mtn-man

Geocaching.com ADMIN

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I should have mentioned that I contacted the cacher directly. As to the comments about my paranoia, ignorance, miserable life, giving people crap, my imagined facts, being in a huff, dropping a load of crap, and the terrible sins of not having posted before, and not checking back for a couple days to see responses: thanks for sharing.

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quote:
Originally posted by Manager:

I should have mentioned that I contacted the cacher directly. As to the comments about my paranoia, ignorance, miserable life, giving people crap, my imagined facts, being in a huff, dropping a load of crap, and the terrible sins of not having posted before, and not checking back for a couple days to see responses: thanks for sharing.


 

<shrug> Presumably, you wanted folks to take your initial post seriously. But when they had questions, you weren't around to reply. So people tried to find out the answers themselves, with varying degrees of success. It's not surprising that there was a certain amount of theorizing in the absence of further responses.

 

You might not appreciate such behavior, but it's a common human reaction. Just consider our daily news, from entertainment to war coverage. Without facts, people come up with hypotheses as to what's going on.

 

The 'seagull post' is a very common Internet phenomenon, and until you returned your initial message had all of the earmarks of being one. So that was put forth as one possibility. Not fair? Perhaps not, but it is human.

 

Now that you are back, perhaps you could confirm which cache it was that caused your concern. That way, if there is indeed a problem as you say the rest of the community can ensure that it is handled appropriately.

 

Ron/yumitori

 

---

 

Remember what the dormouse said...

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The cache was "Tunnel of Terror", but I considered the 'problem' solved once I contacted the cacher. My comments were intended as a general suggestion or reminder to persons involved in the activity, not as a complaint. I am the owner of a website, and I get 'seagulled' and I have people slow to respond, and it is annoying. My reaction is to be patient and polite, and take their comments at face value, rather than attempting to read into them some sinister motive, and respond with accusations and name calling. I found the person who mentioned that I hadn't responded in 16 hours particularly amusing. Guess what? I have responsibilities and other interests. I'll offer another general suggestion that may tick people off: any member of an activity, represents the entire group when speaking or acting in public (like on the 'Net). Fairly or not, people outside the activity will develop an impression of the entire group from what they see or hear. I'm sure people interested in beginning geocaching visit this site and read postings. It benefits the group to be seen as reasonable and friendly, especially to newbies.

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I want to thank Manager for doing the right thing and bringing this to the attention of the cache owner, (cachew) who promptly and graciously archived it. True, the cache was not IN the tunnel, but it was close enough to the tunnel to attract geocachers inside, where because of the decaying state of the tunnel they would have been in danger. The Wisconsin Geocaching Association has been working hard to develop a good relationship with our state DNR, and we hope this was a good example of how we can all cooperate for the good of geocaching. Manager wrote in an email to cachew that he is in favor of geocaching because he recognizes it's the type of wholesome activity that park managers should endorse. That's great news. We need more managers like him, so I urge all my fellow geocachers... be nice! icon_smile.gif

 

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I thought that it would be less than appropriate for me to continue following the threads about this issue without voicing my support of the actions and positions taken by Steve as a land manager, Cachew as a cache owner, and Brian and Ken as representatives of the WGA. I find nothing in your words or actions that is not alltogether fitting and proper in this situation. I feel the indefensible flameing that appears on the boards should be ignored as it is not representative of our community.

 

Steve, Brian, Ken, please keep up your vigalence in insure that our sport continues to be safe and fun.

 

A vote of confidence,

Ray Handley

WGA Member of the Board

 

Life is a gift, freely given for you to enjoy.

A cache is a gift, freely given for you to enjoy.

To cache is to live. What is life without caching?

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A couple thoughts before I leave you alone - To the flamers: I made my comments with the best interests of your activity in mind. If you want to discuss issues or disagree, use the same decorum I hope you do in person, and we can have a dialogue. And get YOUR facts straight. Thanks to the cacher and kind reps of geocaching for their support - I HOPE they come to cache on the properties I manage. Lastly, the rail line in question is closed not only due to liability. It has been the regular target of booby traps such as sharpened railroad spikes set in the ground point up and camoflaged; and equally scary stuff. Until we can bring it up to standard and regularly patrol, we don't want the risk of people out there. That's why I felt this was important. This area should be fully open in the next 2 years.

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Not to beat a dead horse, but in Oregon and I am assuming elsewhere, the US Government owns 100' for rail purposes. It is technically trespassing on government property, even to cross the railroad. It may appear that the rail line is abandened, but if the US has not given a conveyance document (deed), the ground is still held by the government.

 

I am not an attorney nor am I saying that this is correct of the gov. but the fact remains, this is trespassing. If you believe that a cache is hiden on gov. property that may or may not have a no trespassing restriction, call your local surveyor, county assessor or a title/abstract company. These people deal with property lines on a daily basis and have a pretty good knowledge of what is owned and by whom.

 

To run off on a slight tangent, I found geocaching by accident. It is really intrigueing to me. I enjoy the history of the land in which the cache's clues are given and one does learn a great deal about the history of the area. I am sure that there are some clues and maybe a "geocache" that deals with historical clues v. GPS corodinates. If one would like for the finders to work a little bit, put in clues as to what the property was, say 100 years ago. You can readily find this information at your local county seat and it is free. It makes for a very informative search especially for the young ones.

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quote:
Originally posted by Manager:

A couple thoughts before I leave you alone - To the flamers: I made my comments with the best interests of your activity in mind. If you want to discuss issues or disagree, use the same decorum I hope you do in person, and we can have a dialogue. And get YOUR facts straight. Thanks to the cacher and kind reps of geocaching for their support - I HOPE they come to cache on the properties I manage. Lastly, the rail line in question is closed not only due to liability. It has been the regular target of booby traps such as sharpened railroad spikes set in the ground point up and camoflaged; and equally scary stuff. Until we can bring it up to standard and regularly patrol, we don't want the risk of people out there. That's why I felt this was important. This area should be fully open in the next 2 years.


 

I've not read the entire thread. However your post is reasonable especially in light of recent threads. My advice is to watch the lands you mange on this site and others. Geocaching is a young sport. Not all cachers will be familair with your lands or your concerns. Contact them directly via the email link on the geocaching sites. If there is a state orginatinzation work with them directly also.

 

Proactive will go a long ways towards a good outcome. Meanwhile pick up a GPS and go out there and cache.

 

[This message was edited by Renegade Knight on August 30, 2003 at 11:18 AM.]

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I've been away from these forums for quite awhile now, and am saddened to see that the reason I left, a general lack of graciousness, still prevails.

 

The cache Tunnel of Terror is actually the second cache at this hiding spot. I hunted the original cache located here, and can vouch for the fact that there is indeed a posted sign at the trail head that the trail is closed.

 

Like many, I chose to disregard the sign and hunted the cache anyway. I was in the wrong for doing so, I admit it. Was the cache dangerous? No, but had I entered the nearby tunnel, that look oh so inviting, there was danger, and with it a liability to the property owners, and hence the reason for the entire trail being closed.

 

So, Manager stated a true fact: the Wisconsin State Journal article did indeed show geocaching in area(s) that were illegal for the public to enter. He did not need to state which cache for his post to still be valid. Manager was not complaining about that cache. Manager indeed was not even complaining at all, about anything.

 

Manager made one simple, extremely valid point: His concern over the fact that those that pursue geocaching in illegal areas can give the activity a reputation for causing probems, deserving of that reputation or not, especially when there are so many legal areas to pursue the activity.

 

His point is valid even without knowing which cache initiated the comment. His point is valid even if he is not a land manager. His point is valid even if it was his first post.

 

Manager did not complain about geocachers, about the cache, or about the activity. He voiced a concern. Yet, so many here saw fit to rip into him. I find that discouraging...

 

To those that instead showed civility and politness, I thank you.

 

_________________________________

Member:

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I too am raising a cold beverage (of your choice) to CC. His points are valid and make the sport worth enjoying and joining (in my case).

 

Three cheers to those that enjoy the chase and the chance to learn something along the way. I respect the GEOCHACHERS that respect the laws.

 

Here, here!

 

Here, here;

 

Here, here!!!

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