premium MUST by subscription?

April 29, 2016

In the Netherlands we have just had some new laws implemented auto-reoccurring payments are forbidden because businesses are counting om people forgetting to cancel.

Groundspeak is a US company, so they probably don't fall under that law.

Regardless, auto-renewal is increasingly being considered "shady". Apparently there are laws in the works in Australia regarding such contracts, and there have been many investigative reports by journalists about the shady practices of gyms which could lead to legislation in other jurisdictions. It's unfortunate that Groundspeak has decided they need to resort to using shady or illegal business practices to survive (see the previous VAT controversy). Continually shooting yourself in the foot and alienating your customers seems like an inherently-flawed business plan, but what are you going to do...

+ 1 - and that's coming from a user who has VOLUNTARILY been auto-renewing for over 10 years.

Mrs. Car54

+1 - and I guess I renewed my membership right before the change.

So if the policy change wasn't made to just snag some extra membership money from people that forget to cancel their auto-renewals, then what was the real business reason? Hopefully it isn't one of these:

1) non-renewing memberships were processed on a Windows XP machine and the cost of conversion to a supported platform was prohibitive.

2) auto-renewals are one of the cornerstones of a successful business model, and we want to be successful.

7.3k · April 29, 2016

I wasn't talking about a Geocaching Gift Card.

I was asking about a pre-paid Mastercard. I wanted to know what I should put in the "cardholder name" field. That's why I emailed GS and was told that they wouldn't accept a gift credit card, because the membership options were recurring. This confused the heck out of me because I could still (at that time) get the one-year non-renewing PM.

I don't think people understand what the concern is here. Or they wouldn't have posted such rude replies. Pretty shocking when you see who that kind of snarky attitude comes from. Very disappointing.

It's not whether we want to renew the PM or not, it's the underhanded way that GS took away a membership option.

I didn't know about being able to cancel the auto-renew. Thanks for letting me know about that.

Seems kind of silly to allow that, but take away the non-renewing option. Why should I have to find out these things in the forum? Why didn't the lackey who answered my email tell me that? Or was the change still a secret back on the 21st of April?

so frustrating. I buy the PM for ME...I don't want it to be construed as "supporting" Groundspeak.

ugh.

b.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Pup Patrol

April 30, 2016

Guess you guys never had to deal with a Comcast representative to cancel your subscription.

Just a general FYI... saying "Hey, at least it isn't as bad as Comcast" isn't exactly a stellar argument in favor anything.

4.5k · April 30, 2016

Just buy a premium membership gift card and then pay for your own premium membership with the gift card you just bought

jup. Plenty of "tricks" available. I am just mad that Groundspeak is hoping people will forget to cancel the premium membership and just will "let it roll". Thats how gyms make their money. Paying members that don;t show up. I mean, does Groundspeak really desperately need money that much? If so a price raise would me more fair than a rip-your-customers scheme.

Geez, sign up, next day cancel. I fail to see the problem. At least they make it nice and easy.

Groundspeak, like many companies, knows this brings in more money. There is a good possibility the auto renewal will take place because most people forgo marking their calendars. Unless a person takes additional steps, there's a good chance he'll forget a year later. I know, buyer beware,,, but imo, companies should not use these types of tactics on its customers.

May 1, 2016

I will do some fortune telling now. In a year (maybe a year and 2 months), after everybody has forgotten they gave out an automatic membership, Groundspeak will raise their prices. I am fore-telling 40 dollar a year (sorry: 39.99). And only very, very, very few people will cancel the automated credit card subscription. Groundspeak is anticipating a whole lot of boohaa on a price raise and they are trying it this way. Because "they will not notice anyways".

Lets be reasonable. There is no reason anybody can think of that will make Groundspeak _need_ an automatic year subscription. Whether they send an email telling me they are going to take money out of my card, or they send me an email telling me I need to send money from my card... the cost is exactly the same.

May 1, 2016

I mean, does Groundspeak really desperately need money that much? If so a price raise would me more fair than a rip-your-customers scheme.

If those are the only 2 options, then I'd rather they go with auto-renewal and easy cancellation of auto-renewal, rather than paying more.

I'd be perfectly happy paying more for a membership if it meant Groundspeak would have the resources necessary to adequately support and develop their software and wouldn't have to resort to things like crippling their app for basic members to force people to pay for a premium membership. Keeping the membership price the same indefinitely is unsustainable and unrealistic. At some point it will have to increase, and based on what I've seen Groundspeak do in recent months to try to get people to pay for a premium membership, that time has come.

Premium Membership cost is high enough. IF it increases Groundspeak will start to loose customers (Geocachers) because they will not want to put extra money aside. Some people forget to renew or cancel so thats one thing, but the non-renewal option should stay especially if other countries have laws. They make reviewers follow the laws, why should Groundspeak themselves not do the same?

May 5, 2016

Meh.

Edited May 6, 2016 by FrankenHipster

1.5k · May 13, 2016

I manually renew because I want to!

I like to keep track of what I spend, rather than get the statements of what has been auto renewed.

To me, this having to cancel after purchase, is either sloppy programming, or shady dealing.

There should simply be a check box where you select "Auto Renew" if you want it.

Having to cancel after, to me, is no different than the shady programs that have different boxes checked by default that you have to uncheck when installing, or get stuff that you don't want on your computer!

May 13, 2016

Lol, make them bleed. Give yourself a giftcard (non renewing) and gift yourself the gift of non re-occurring premium membership

May 13, 2016

If this is a new type of business "policy", it will most likely to become an obstacle to new subscriptions or renewals.

All customers like to be able to decide how to pay the membership and the fact that HC remove the option of no-renew creates a problem of trust with the entity that is providing the service, and in this case, also a new issus with the credibility of Groundspeak. :huh:

3.5k · May 14, 2016

I might be mistaken, but aren't most websites based on auto-renewal (aka, recurring payments)? Netflix, Hulu, Spotify, etc. These services continue to bill the customer every month unless the customer cancels the service. Even cell phone and cable television services are recurring, except pre-paid cell phones, without the customer actively cancelling the service ahead of time. It seems like Geocaching.com is doing the same thing, except that it's on an annual basis instead of monthly.

I'm pretty ambivalent about the auto-renewal change here, primarily because it seems pretty typical of online services.

Edited May 14, 2016 by noncentric

May 14, 2016

Considering GC have a internacional impact, at least they should have announce the changes in a communicate to the public. In Europe, the case of the Netherlands may in fact become come to all UE members soon.

View Postnovw.nl, on 28 April 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

In the Netherlands we have just had some new laws implemented auto-reoccurring payments are forbidden because businesses are counting om people forgetting to cancel.

In Portugal the Netflix arrive since 2015 and they are considered like a Sport TV, that is, if the consumer wants to see it, first they should add the product to their communication tariff monthly.

Spotify, have a diversify ways of payments: a plus to yours communication cell-phone/smarthphone plan or a present gift card (a real card you can by at a FNAC or MediaMarket) or on-line.

According to what I have heard and read, it was already bad enough when GCHQ changed the app for smartphones and said the upgrade would have an extra cost to whom had paid less than a month of program use, now without any announcement eliminate the option that already have been there for some years, it makes me doubt the credibility of GCHQ as a business company.

June 25, 2016

I manually renew because I don't have a credit card. My Maestro debit card is not supported, and since this change I can't even buy a gift membership for myself, because now PayPal wants me to add credit card info to my account, but only when I want to buy stuff from Groundspeak.

So am I expected to ask a third party for their credit card info?

July 6, 2016

Hi there!

Did Groundspeak put an automatic renewal option into your PayPal account, even though you never purchased an auto renewal option? Check here: https://www.paypal.com/de/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_manage-paylist

Like many others I was REALLY upset to see that I am FORCED to use automatic renewal if I want to purchase another year of premium membership.

I thought I buy the auto renewal and cancel it right away. However, since I was still premium member, the cancel option also cancels the year that I just planned to book. This frustrated me so much that I canceled the purchase through the geocaching website. I then wanted to make sure it is also canceled on PayPal. So I logged in and I checked (see the link above to do the same).

I was REALLY surprised to see TWO authorizations that I never wanted to make. Obviously the one-year-subscriptions (without automatic renewal) of the past years left something in the PayPal systems that would Groundspeak allow to take my money at any time! I am so upset!

I attach my screenshots here. They are in German language, but I think they will look similar in your language. Just check on the link that I posted above.

My recommendations: do not trust Groundspeak to cancel the automatic renewal. Be on the safe side and cancel it yourself in PayPal!

The first image shows that there are two authorizations, dated 2014 and 2015. They are inactive because I set them to inactive today. When I saw this page this morning, they were still active! The USD 0.00 means that the last purchase was USD 0.00. So obviously those authorizations have been installed,even though they have never been used or required.

If you open one of the authorizations, this is what you see:

You might want to check if groundspeaking got the same access to your accounts, and you may want to kill these entries. I find it very, very upsetting that they did that. It is like a virus, the opened a backdoor in my PayPal account to grab my money!

Kind regards,

Spatzenfamilie

1.2k · July 6, 2016

Hmmm, my list included 4 other vendors inadditionto Groundspeak

July 6, 2016

The Help Center article on premium membership still says that a non-renewing annual membership is available. There were no Release Notes or other announcements of any change. So, I am moving this thread to the Geocaching.com Web Site forum so that an HQ representative can confirm whether this is a bug or a change.

Maybe Im mistaken but it appears you are suggesting that there are 2 forums

6.2k · July 6, 2016

The Help Center article on premium membership still says that a non-renewing annual membership is available. There were no Release Notes or other announcements of any change. So, I am moving this thread to the Geocaching.com Web Site forum so that an HQ representative can confirm whether this is a bug or a change.

Maybe Im mistaken but it appears you are suggesting that there are 2 forums

There are a lot more that 2 forums, all listed here: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?act=idx

4.6k · July 6, 2016

There are a lot more that 2 forums, all listed here: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?act=idx

There's only one forum. What you see in your link are sub-forums.

15.4k · July 6, 2016

There are a lot more that 2 forums, all listed here: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?act=idx
There's only one forum. What you see in your link are sub-forums.

Technically, the whole thing is called the "Groundspeak Forums" (with an S), and each entry in that list is called a "Forum".

July 6, 2016

Got it ?

July 8, 2016

I find this auto renewal not to my taste, especially when grouped with the other things GS has done. Contrary to what it says under my avatar, I have not been a PM for a few months.

The price of PM has not increased for over 10 years and is a paltry amount, if you cannot afford it try doing without a beer a month or cut down on a pack of cigarettes a month, that should cover it. It is high time for an increase and even $39.99 is not too much.

Price is not the point, it is the principle of the matter.

3.3k · July 16, 2016

Color me confused. Your going to renew any way, so why is it being automatic such a big deal? Once when I wanted to cancel the auto-renewal I found the help desk lackey easy to deal with and gave me the info needed without the Comcast shamming spiel or the gym membership road blocks. There are a number of viable workarounds if you really want to put the red circle on the calendar to remember to manually renew. Lil Devil got it right, if your offered a free bag of money you would complain that they are all 20's, there should be some 100's in the bag.

Color *me* confused. I don't understand the "free bag of money" analogy.

The point is that some customers like auto-renewal and many don't. Offering customers more choices leads to more happy customers.

July 18, 2016

My renewal date is coming up next month. I always look forward to this time of year. I get to load up on PQs and see how long I can postpone renewing. One year I went nearly two months! I do enjoy this game.

July 18, 2016

I find this auto renewal not to my taste, especially when grouped with the other things GS has done. Contrary to what it says under my avatar, I have not been a PM for a few months.

The price of PM has not increased for over 10 years and is a paltry amount, if you cannot afford it try doing without a beer a month or cut down on a pack of cigarettes a month, that should cover it. It is high time for an increase and even $39.99 is not too much.

Price is not the point, it is the principle of the matter.

i'm confused, you're saying a) it's time for a price increase and price is not the point, in the same post ?

what will users gain by a 2x 3x or 10x increase for the subscription, in your view ?

3.7k · July 18, 2016

I wasn't talking about a Geocaching Gift Card.

I was asking about a pre-paid Mastercard. I wanted to know what I should put in the "cardholder name" field. That's why I emailed GS and was told that they wouldn't accept a gift credit card, because the membership options were recurring. This confused the heck out of me because I could still (at that time) get the one-year non-renewing PM.

I don't think people understand what the concern is here. Or they wouldn't have posted such rude replies. Pretty shocking when you see who that kind of snarky attitude comes from. Very disappointing.

It's not whether we want to renew the PM or not, it's the underhanded way that GS took away a membership option.

I didn't know about being able to cancel the auto-renew. Thanks for letting me know about that.

Seems kind of silly to allow that, but take away the non-renewing option. Why should I have to find out these things in the forum? Why didn't the lackey who answered my email tell me that? Or was the change still a secret back on the 21st of April?

so frustrating. I buy the PM for ME...I don't want it to be construed as "supporting" Groundspeak.

ugh.

b.

I very well may not renew premium membership if 'auto renewal' is my only option come December. Even if it can be disabled after buying in.

It's not about taking a grand 'stand'...but it is about the principle. When I bought in (in 2012), I did so on a year-by-year basis and likely would not have committed to an auto-renewing membership.

7.3k · July 18, 2016

It's all very well and good for Americans to be snotty about this, but for those of us who have to deal with currency exchange rates, it's very frustrating.

We don't pay $30...we pay a lot more.

It's the underhanded way that GS made this change, like so many other changes, that is infuriating.

A little heads-up would have been nice. But that's not the way GS works, is it?

No, just slide a major change in under the radar, with no warning at all to loyal customers.

Auto-renew should be an option for the customer. One should not have to find out from other members about it, or about how to turn it off.

I think GS makes plenty of cash through the sale of products, apps and the incredibly expensive GeoTours. I bet that PM's barely register in their list of high-return products.

Not, it's not the price, it's the sneaky way GS does business that is the most galling of all.

b.

July 18, 2016

I renewed my premium membership today and also noticed the change to auto-renew.

After paying with Mastercard and receiving the confirmation e-mail, the next renewal date was not updated! (still the old date) So I think there is something wrong with the payment process. I opened a support ticket with no response until now.

So I advice everybody to carefully check all dates after renewing!!

7.8k · July 18, 2016

I think GS makes plenty of cash through the sale of products...

With the trackable side-game dying a slow death due to stale entries on cache listings (proposed fix here), I bet they aren't making as much as they used to on products.

...apps...

They've stopped charging for the app and instead force you to buy a PM to unlock the majority of the functionality of the app.

...and the incredibly expensive GeoTours.

Yep, they still get a bunch of revenue from these.

I bet that PM's barely register in their list of high-return products.

With the app now requiring a PM to work effectively, I bet PMs have moved up the list of revenue-producing avenues.

what will users gain by a 2x 3x or 10x increase for the subscription, in your view ?

Better support and improvements to the website/apps. If Groundspeak was able to bring in more money, they could hire or purchase the necessary resources (ie. staff, servers, new software, etc.) to:

Finish the many half-finished features
Deal with 15-year-old issues like the lack of time zone support
Improve the performance of the site and apps, which is lacking in a number of areas
Provide a usable app

With the ever-increasing costs of running the servers and website, office rent, and inflation, a fixed PM price is unsustainable. Unless Groundspeak wins the lottery, they'll have to increase the PM price eventually.

7.8k · July 18, 2016

After paying with Mastercard and receiving the confirmation e-mail, the next renewal date was not updated! (still the old date) So I think there is something wrong with the payment process.

Has your previous renewal date been reached yet? I seem to recall that it will still show the old date until we get to that date, at which point it will update to the new one. That's a different problem (it should update immediately on receipt of payment), but one that I believe is a known-problem.

4.6k · July 18, 2016

Has your previous renewal date been reached yet? I seem to recall that it will still show the old date until we get to that date, at which point it will update to the new one. That's a different problem (it should update immediately on receipt of payment), but one that I believe is a known-problem.

When I renewed the date was reset immediately, as I recall that was always the case except for 1 time a few years ago.

July 19, 2016

Has your previous renewal date been reached yet? I seem to recall that it will still show the old date until we get to that date, at which point it will update to the new one. That's a different problem (it should update immediately on receipt of payment), but one that I believe is a known-problem.

When I renewed the date was reset immediately, as I recall that was always the case except for 1 time a few years ago.

I got a reply from support that the credit card is only pre-authorized and will be charged on the renewal date. I was not on auto-renewal before. So I choose to renew manually, choosing the auto-renewal option (no other possibility). When I look now, auto-renewal is enabled. So when I understand it correctly, they checked my credit card and changed my account into auto-renewal. So it should renew within a week automatically. On the other hand, they have sent a bunch of mails welcoming me with my premium membership... Very very confusing...

I am surely going to check my credit card...

-quote-

Thank you for contacting Geocaching HQ and we apologize for any confusion.

Your Premium Membership was pre-authorized, but you won't actually be charged for the membership until your current Premium membership expires on 25 Jul 2016. At that time, the expiration date on your membership will update.

-end quote-

July 20, 2016

I have been a member for 12 years. I have my reasons for not autorenewing. I don't need to explain my reasons to anyone. The discussion about the efficacy of the current tact has been useful. Telling people they should not be concerned is not useful.

Yes, I know how to get around the autorenewal. That is NOT the point.

I agree 100%. Bad way to do business.

13.8k · July 24, 2016

How could they possibly not accept a Geocaching Gift Card? They literally sell them for the explicit purpose of paying for a Premium Membership.

http://shop.geocaching.com/default/gifts/gift-certificates/12-month-premium-membership-gift-card.html

This ^

Maybe the Lackey that responded to PP's inquiry was just misinformed. It looks like there is still an option to enter a gift card. In the OP's image, the 3rd radio button is "Redeem Gift Membership". Clicking on that reveals an input box to enter the gift card number. I would certainly hope that GS isn't selling gift cards that cannot be redeemed.

Decided that I was gonna cash in my "One Year of Geocaching Premium" card today (our start date), and the only option is "Redeem Gift Membership".

Soon as I entered the first character of the membership code, it came up as invalid.

Message sent to Help Center...

7.3k · July 24, 2016

How could they possibly not accept a Geocaching Gift Card? They literally sell them for the explicit purpose of paying for a Premium Membership.

http://shop.geocaching.com/default/gifts/gift-certificates/12-month-premium-membership-gift-card.html

I wasn't talking about a Geocaching Gift Card.

I was asking about a pre-paid Mastercard. I wanted to know what I should put in the "cardholder name" field. That's why I emailed GS and was told that they wouldn't accept a gift credit card, because the membership options were recurring. This confused the heck out of me because I could still (at that time) get the one-year non-renewing PM.

B.

5.7k · July 24, 2016

Decided that I was gonna cash in my "One Year of Geocaching Premium" card today (our start date), and the only option is "Redeem Gift Membership".

Soon as I entered the first character of the membership code, it came up as invalid.

Message sent to Help Center...

That's awful... my plans were to buy myself a gift membership to renew my PM with.

Please keep us posted.

July 25, 2016

Decided that I was gonna cash in my "One Year of Geocaching Premium" card today (our start date), and the only option is "Redeem Gift Membership".

Soon as I entered the first character of the membership code, it came up as invalid.

Thanks for contacting the Help Center with your problem. If you were entering the gift card code in the correct format and it was not accepted as valid, that is not some nefarious plan but rather a bug that we need to know about and fix.

13.8k · July 25, 2016

Decided that I was gonna cash in my "One Year of Geocaching Premium" card today (our start date), and the only option is "Redeem Gift Membership".

Soon as I entered the first character of the membership code, it came up as invalid.

Thanks for contacting the Help Center with your problem. If you were entering the gift card code in the correct format and it was not accepted as valid, that is not some nefarious plan but rather a bug that we need to know about and fix

I don't recall saying anything about a nefarious plan, simply that I went by what should be a workaround option for pm without a credit card auto-renewal (a shop.geocaching PM card), and the system didn't accept it.

Sharing it here, because others have thought they'd do the same.

Thanks for looking into it.

July 25, 2016

Can I buy a auto renewing membership but stop renewing so it is a one off payment

15.4k · July 25, 2016

Can I buy a auto renewing membership but stop renewing so it is a one off payment

That's what I did a few months ago.

5.7k · July 25, 2016

Sharing it here, because others have thought they'd do the same.

Thanks for looking into it.

I had the same idea, so I'll wait until the bug is fixed before I try.

13.8k · July 27, 2016

Sharing it here, because others have thought they'd do the same.

Thanks for looking into it.

I had the same idea, so I'll wait until the bug is fixed before I try.

Since I included the code in my mail, a very nice Lackey got me squared away, so just keep your fingers crossed I guess.

August 2, 2016

What a dishonest and doubtful business practice, shame on you Groundspeak.

I don't care we can cancel after buying, that's not the point. The option was there all those years (I know because I was a subscriber since 2006, wow 10 years already, time flies!) and you intentionally removed it probably in hopes some members would forget.

If you have a bit of respect for your paying members, you will kindly revert back to give us the option again and, I know it's hard, apologize. Because we all do mistakes.

P.S. I wonder how that can happen, I mean is this a one man decision, or, on a group meeting they all concluded it was the best thing to do? SERIOUSLY!

N.B. I see most of you complaining are still +Premium. Today is the last day you'll see the little + under my name because my membership ends today and I logged in today specifically to renew after receiving the email telling me it's about to expire. That should have been a routine but found this change I'm not happy with so I thought I'll let them know and act accordingly. I hope many of us can hold back and show we are the customers.

August 2, 2016

Quick follow up as I'm on twitter and following @GoGeocaching.

I decided to let them know over there too.

Discussion is here.

You are welcome to chime in...

August 2, 2016

Quick follow up as I'm on twitter and following @GoGeocaching.

I decided to let them know over there too.

Discussion is here.

You are welcome to chime in...

I also went to renew my premium membership, but as there is no option for a non-recurring subscription, I decided not to renew it. I know that you can cancel annual membership at any time, but there seems to be no option to cancel the auto renewal without also cancelling the membership - the only option is to 'cancel membership' (without a refund, unless you specifically request one withing 30 days of the initial payment). I agree that this has clearly been done in the hope that the 'inertia factor' will just keep the subscriptions coming in. However, there are many like me who will never purchase an auto renewing subscription and so this may end up reducing their revenue rather than increasing it. If a sufficient number of members have the collective will to withhold subscription renewals, then Groundspeak may think again and reinstate the non-recurring premium memberships. Geocaching is, after all, a recreational activity and not a basic necessity of life.

August 2, 2016

Geocaching is, after all, a recreational activity and not a basic necessity of life.

Anyone who love geocaching will renew when they get the notification email anyway. That email was the perfect reminder, no need to force user with such an auto-renew. It was nice to offer the auto-renew for people who liked it but as the only option, just NO.

I'm glad you do not renew like me.

August 27, 2016

I bought the auto-renewal (because I had to), but now the website still keeps asking me to renew. It doesn't show in my account that I already have.

August 27, 2016

I bought the auto-renewal (because I had to), but now the website still keeps asking me to renew. It doesn't show in my account that I already have.

The usual advise for this type of problem is to log out and log back in again, failing that contract Groundspeak directly.

October 17, 2016

I canceled my auto-renew today. (My intention is to switch from quarterly to annual.) When I did so, it let me know that my premium membership was still valid until it expires. So hopefully that will relieve some people's worry that the "renew and cancel" strategy would cause the premium membership to go away.

October 18, 2016

Signing up for Auto-renewal is no option for me.

Why buy Auto-renewal membership followed by cancelation ?

I have to do with the Basic membership pushed down to after years with manual renewal Premium memership.

Edited October 18, 2016 by GGGub

October 18, 2016

Why buy Auto-renewal membership followed by cancelation ?

Well, unless you are logistically unable to set up a renewing membership, it's the same as manual renewal. It's a little bit annoying, but for me it does to the trick to make sure I won't be on the hook for years of membership fees if I lose the geocaching bug again.

premium MUST by subscription?

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