Has anyone bagged a terrain 5 cache without using special equipment?

[+gpsblake]

Just curious if I swim to a terrain 5.0 cache, should it be downgraded to a 4.5 or 4.0? I know it's a dumb question but I've noticed several caches placed on the river here in Columbia that I'm certain I could swim to instead of using a kayak. And also curious if others in here have bagged a 5.0 terrain cache without using any special equipment?

[+rosebud55112]

This time of year, I can walk to some terrain five caches.

[+Roman!]

.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Roman!

[+BAMBOOZLE]

Yes.....there are many you can walk or climb to......if they are rated correctly is another question.

[+OZ2CPU]

D/T ratings are IMPOSSIBLE to make correct for all,

people are not alike, some very skilled and atletic, some the quite opposite.

And the hides are very different too, some can be solved in many different ways

from using special tools the way the CO placed it, and the way he figures you will maybe do it.

Just use the D/T value so you get a little idea ahead what to expect.

 

Also the difination special tool is hard to understand ?

what is special tools to you ? might be simple every day stuff in my car ?

[+cerberus1]

I think if a hide is attempted the way the CO intended it should probably still be rated a five.

My other 2/3rds has a "5" tree limb hide that has been accessed with everything from ladders to kids building what looked like a medieval siege tower.

Her intentions were to make a fun, easier hide for folks just learning to vertical climb with rope and it's explained on the cache page.

Those without that skill have simply thought of other ways to access it.

She's now added that there may be alternate means to access.

- That doesn't negate the fact it's intended to be a "5" rope hide.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Just curious if I swim to a terrain 5.0 cache, should it be downgraded to a 4.5 or 4.0?

 

Re rating for swimming, I'd say that's a 3, not a 4 or 4.5 (if you can't swim, it's back to a 5, 'cause you need equipment).

Terrain 3 = Not suitable for small children. The average adult or older child should be OK depending on physical condition.

 

The average adult can swim.

 

I own a number of caches along rivers. I rate as terrain 5, because by boat would be the easiest, most logical way, as defined by the rating system here which rates from the "most logical parking area" (ie, the boat ramp).

Can you hike in? Sure, it's a long brutal slog through the swamp, but you can do it, and in recent years, there have been hiking finders.

 

The ratings for both difficulty and terrain are not some kind of points award, (higher ratings = more "points"), they're information. According to the Clayjar system for cache rating, you rate the terrain for the most logical approach. If a sane person would come by boat, or climb with gear, it's a five. If someone skips the gear and makes a pleasant paddle into brutal slog, fine. Or takes life and limb into risk to make a climb without gear, fine if they survive it; the correct rating is still 5.

 

 

That boat = 5 is an error I think. More appropriate would be a rating for the walking part (if any), or how hard the boating is, plus use the boat icon. If it may involve white water or multiple portages the rating goes up. If it's just a flat water paddle, or you can power boat it, rating goes down. But there were no icons in the early days of the site. Using that system, some of my paddle caches would be a 2.5 with boat Icon, and couple, with portaging in the mucky, cypress knee bottomless swamp, a 4.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Isonzo Karst

[+JL_HSTRE]

I though wading or swimming was still T4.

 

I've found a T5 kayak cache overland because the foliage was at most knee-high. The same route would now take you through head-high grass.

 

There was a 5/5 micro-high-in-a-tree I looked for with friends, one of who climbed the tree pretty far for us. DNF'd. A week or two later, someone else found it laying on the ground where it had fallen out of the tree.

[Mr.Yuck]

Yes. It was an ammo box in a hollow log off a bike trail. It was a liar's cache, never mind. And of course it was back in the day when ALR's were still allowed.

 

There's a 2002 placed canoe/kayak cache in my area that I'll bet half the finders over the years have walked to in winter. Although I see there's some discussion here about whether or not a "boat" makes it terrain 5.

[+CanadianRockies]

That boat = 5 is an error I think. More appropriate would be a rating for the walking part (if any), or how hard the boating is, plus use the boat icon. If it may involve white water or multiple portages the rating goes up. If it's just a flat water paddle, or you can power boat it, rating goes down. But there were no icons in the early days of the site. Using that system, some of my paddle caches would be a 2.5 with boat Icon, and couple, with portaging in the mucky, cypress knee bottomless swamp, a 4.

I agree the terrain rating should indicate the difficulty of reaching Ground Zero and a boat (or other specialized equipment) cache shouldn't automatically be assigned a T5 rating. According to Groundspeak:

 

When you submit a cache for publication, you must specify ratings for difficulty and terrain using a 5-star scale. One is the easiest. Five is the hardest.

Of course, further down the page, you also find this:

 

T5 - Extremely challenging terrain

 

Requires specialized equipment (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

If you ignore the heading and the word "otherwise," then you might view that as meaning any boat cache deserves a T5 rating. We've found more than one such T5 where you can wade to the island without ever getting your knees wet (or simply wait until winter). Of our 56 T5 finds, none deserved that rating, IMHO.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

The quick answer to the OP is no. We have found 4 5Ts, two tree and 2 island caches.

 

I gotta go, but may stop back to address the rating system from a standpoint of ratings giving info regarding extremeness v. the need for a rope ladder.

[GOF and Bacall]

Is ice special equipment?

[+lamoracke]

there is Jetty Island out here which has a ferry 3 months of the year and most of the caches on it have been terrain 5. So, for 3 months, those terrain 5s are like 2 to 4...the other 9 months, terrain 5.

 

not the only example. Hard to rate some caches where the terrain is seasonal for a number of reasons like this.

[+313JTG]

Anything that requires extreme special equipment should be a five.

 

Although I've never obtained a five terrain cache, I know that there are some challenge caches with five terrain ratings as a reward for going after tough caches. Other than that though, the other five terrains I've seen all require like a boat or something.

[+theosus]

I did a five terrain before, involving crouch walking through drain lines in icky water under Asheville. I don't know if it was rated correct or not, but it felt like a 5 to me.

[AZcachemeister]

If you can get to the cache without 'special equipment', then by definition it is not a T5 cache (see previous post about doing it the way the owner intended).

 

I tend to not think of the D/T ratings in terms of absolutes, but as a general guide of what to expect.

If it's rated between T1 and T3, I'm not going to worry much. If it's up at T3.5 or above I'm going to take a closer look at what I'm getting into.

 

Then there are the seasonal and weather condition variables that are difficult to account for in a simple rating system like we have.

[+JKMonkey]

From what I've always been told, a Five Star Terrain difficulty requires special equipment. Since swimming doesn't really require any special equipment (aside from maybe water wings xD) it should be maybe a 3.5, 4 depending on the length of the swim and condition of the water.

[+terratin]

Is ice special equipment?

 

My thought exactly

We've bagged a few otherwise difficult caches by just waiting for the right winter Only needed to wait two winters, thus 'patience' might also be a special equipment

[+larryc43230]

"Has anyone bagged a terrain 5 cache without using special equipment?"

 

A geocache legitimately rated a terrain 5: No.

 

A geocache rated a terrain 5 because the cache owner grossly over-estimated the terrain: Yes, twice.

 

I have two cache finds where the terrain was rated as 5. The first required a hike of less than half a mile and a scramble up and down a reasonably steep hill. Maybe actually a 3 terrain, at most. The second cache did require a "boost" of about three feet to reach a hollow space in a tree. I didn't feel that bit of minor mechanical (or human) assistance merited a 5 terrain. The hike to get to GZ was maybe a 2.5 terrain.

 

The D/T grid on my profile page shows these two caches as terrain 5, but I almost feel guilty about that. Then again, I found both caches, and there's no way for me to do anything about it, other than maybe force a terrain rating change in my GSAK database. Which isn't worth the trouble.

 

--Larry

[+dprovan]

I don't know about the "legal" issue, but in practice I think it's reasonable for a CO to put out a cache intending it to be retrieved by boat, rate it T5 for that reason, and not worry about the fact that some people can find other ways to get there.

 

Furthermore, I have no problem whatsoever with a cache requiring a significant swim -- I'm thinking 100 yards or so -- being rated T5, anyway. That's partly because I'm OK with the modern trend in terrain inflation, but also because I'd be willing to consider a good swimming stroke as being "special equipment" regardless of whether anyone thinks that's the letter of the law. Not that I'd have a problem with a CO rating such a cache with a lower terrain rating, and I'd probably rate it a little lower myself.

 

Of course, as others have mentioned, the bottom line is that it's just a fact that the cache is rated T5 no matter how you get it.

[+Viajero Perdido]

Swim suits are special equipment.

 

And I know some people who take longer to pick out their swimsuits than their mountaineering gear.

 

[+Harry Dolphin]

T5 - Extremely challenging terrain

 

Requires specialized equipment (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

 

 

So, we will go with "Or is otherwise extremely difficult."

 

I have done 5 5* terrain caches.

Two days hiking. Over a thousand feet of climb. Yeah. that's 5*.

Seven mile hike along the trail to get the final coords? Pretty darned close.

Visit seventeen locations. Total disance abot eleven miles. Petty darned close.

Archived moving cache. You could only find it by being lucky. Not sure how to rate that one.

250 miles of driving. We got stuck in the sand and had to be pushed out. Took us two days. Not sure how to rate that. But, yeah, pretty darned close. Someone else reported 420 miles of driving. Is a car 'apecial equipment' to go those 420 miles? You betcha!

[+GrateBear]

Yep--drove the Jeep to the top of the hill, headed into the rocks on foot, and bingo, Bob's your uncle!

[+hzoi]

I swam across a channel of the Rhein to get my first 5-star terrain cache. But most people still take a boat.

 

(edit: the current was strong enough that I think I was pulled at least as far downstream as the distance I was trying to swim across, so while swimming to the cache was one technique, it was never recommended)

Edited February 4, 2013 by hzoi

[+St.Matthew]

I recently did an easy T5 cache. It was rated as such because you have to foot it across a major highway to get from parking to the trailhead. In all honesty, it should have been a T3 or less.

[+Huntleigh]

If you can get to the cache without 'special equipment', then by definition it is not a T5 cache (see previous post about doing it the way the owner intended).

 

 

I disagree (as does the rating engine on a cache's edit page)

 

Think about this cache I put some numbers into the engine and left the last choice (where you put the specialised equipment bit in) as "cache in plain sight". I still came up with a T5.

 

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

The quick answer to the OP is no. We have found 4 5Ts, two tree and 2 island caches.

 

I gotta go, but may stop back to address the rating system from a standpoint of ratings giving info regarding extremeness v. the need for a rope ladder.

 

I did stop back, but I'm not going to chime-in. The responses are all over the board regarding appropriateness of a 5T rating so I think there is nothing worthwhile I can offer.

[+ArtieD]

This past weekend, a couple buddies and I did the three island caches in the Kaw River in Kansas City. One had a terrain of 5, one 4.5 and one 3.5. Normally, the island would make all of them a true 5 terrain, but the river is at unprecedented lows right now and to get to the island, you walk across a rocky land bridge. In the current state, it's no more than that 3.5 due to the fairly steep hills you have to climb down to the river and up to the surface of the island.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2013 by Arthur & Trillian

[+coman123]

T5 easy with ice

 

Just did this one today, had some fun

 

[+Andromeda321]

I did actually swim/wade to a T5 kayaking cache once, which was hilarious. Basically it was hidden on a beach in Florida (ie kayak cache) which was impossible to get to because it was surrounded by a gated community, so you certainly couldn't wade/swim over unless you were in the gated community. Which is where my parents retired, so one morning while visiting them I took advantage of low tide to walk to the nearest spot, swim/wade across the narrow channel, then wade the last bit for the find.

 

I got a message from the CO because she thought the log was hilarious, no one else had ever attempted the cache that way.

[+terratin]

Just noticed a diving cache with missing D/T combination near our summer holiday destination. You have to find two bits of information underwater, from a selection of four each. You can google at least one. But even without that you can reduce the few possible hiding locations to about 5 as they are the only ones in accessible areas. After looking at a spoiler photo there are only two locations left. This owner seems to make it really easy for people to bag a high terrain rating.

 

Mrs. terratin

[+LewisClan77]

Before I got my kayak I did This Cache without one. I was the first to do so and Probably the last.

[+Rustynails]

I bagged four of the 5 terrain island caches yesterday by walking on water.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Anything where you have to cross water, either by swimming or boat, I consider a terrain 5.

[+hzoi]

I bagged four of the 5 terrain island caches yesterday by walking on water.

 

Well done, My Lord!

[+Panther&Pine]

we found one yesterday, because of the low tide I only had to get into the water to my knees.

[+Rustynails]

I bagged four of the 5 terrain island caches yesterday by walking on water.

 

Well done, My Lord!

 

Bless you, my son!

[+wmpastor]

Is ice special equipment?

Ice is special equipment in the tropics but not elsewhere!

[+wmpastor]

So you're SURE that you want to do a TRUE 5/5?? You won't be walking over at low tide - it's got 2,300 meters of water over it. Bonus: you can grab FTF 11 years after the cache was placed in 2002! Almost 1,000 people are watching the listing, so you'll be famous. It's gcg822.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

So you're SURE that you want to do a TRUE 5/5?? You won't be walking over at low tide - it's got 2,300 meters of water over it. Bonus: you can grab FTF 11 years after the cache was placed in 2002! Almost 1,000 people are watching the listing, so you'll be famous. It's gcg822.

 

I wouldn't really consider that cache or the other cache on the ISS by the same owner as the benchmark for a true 5/5. I see them more as novelty caches, that although theoretically possible to find, for all practical purposes they're not available to find for anyone without the financial resources of the cache owner. Most "true" 5/5 caches are unknowns with a very difficult puzzle that might take a week or more to solve, then *require* special equipment to reach the cache, or are challenge caches with a substantial set of pre-requisite caches to find. I would guess that most traditional 5/5 caches are misrated, and usually for the difficulty. It seems to be fairly common for a CO to associate with difficulty of the terrain as the difficulty of the hide and I've seen some listings with 5 stars for difficulty when the container is actually in plain site upon reaching GZ. A "true" 5/5 traditional would require special equipment or a very long long hike (that might take 2 days or more) to reach GZ, then a hide that is so difficult that, for the average cacher, take more than a day to find. It's amazing how many 5/5 caches there are that have dozens of finds and few DNFs. If a cache has that kind of find/DNF ratio, to me, it's way overrated.

[+CanadianRockies]

A "true" 5/5 traditional would require special equipment or a very long long hike (that might take 2 days or more) to reach GZ, then a hide that is so difficult that, for the average cacher, take more than a day to find.

And some of us wouldn't consider an easy 20-minute boat ride to be a "true" T5, even if the boat was required.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

A "true" 5/5 traditional would require special equipment or a very long long hike (that might take 2 days or more) to reach GZ, then a hide that is so difficult that, for the average cacher, take more than a day to find.

And some of us wouldn't consider an easy 20-minute boat ride to be a "true" T5, even if the boat was required.

 

That's an issue that I, personally, have with the required T5 rating for caches that require a boat. It makes no distinction between a cache on an island in a small protected lake that someone with no experience at all could reach in a big box recreational kayak (and could probably be done with a $3 inflatable pool toy or an inner tube), and a cache located a mile off shore in a sea cave that requires launching and landing a boat through 3' breaking waves and dealing with 5-10' swells and tidal currents.

Edited February 19, 2013 by NYPaddleCacher

[+dprovan]

That's an issue that I, personally, have with the required T5 rating for caches that require a boat. It makes no distinction between a cache on an island in a small protected lake that someone with no experience at all could reach in a big box recreational kayak (and could probably be done with a $3 inflatable pool toy or an inner tube), and a cache located a mile off shore in a sea cave that requires launching and landing a boat through 3' breaking waves and dealing with 5-10' swells and tidal currents.

What do you propose? Having a terrain level of 6? 5 being unreasonably hard without equipment, and 6 being insanely hard under all conditions? 5 being "very hard to get to", and 6 being "very, very hard to get to"?

 

I think the system works fine. Yeah, it involves some compromises, but I think they're reasonable. The very, very hard caches are impressive finds individually. They don't need anything to make finding them numerically impressive, as well.

[+nthacker66]

That's an issue that I, personally, have with the required T5 rating for caches that require a boat. It makes no distinction between a cache on an island in a small protected lake that someone with no experience at all could reach in a big box recreational kayak (and could probably be done with a $3 inflatable pool toy or an inner tube), and a cache located a mile off shore in a sea cave that requires launching and landing a boat through 3' breaking waves and dealing with 5-10' swells and tidal currents.

What do you propose? Having a terrain level of 6? 5 being unreasonably hard without equipment, and 6 being insanely hard under all conditions? 5 being "very hard to get to", and 6 being "very, very hard to get to"?

 

I think the system works fine. Yeah, it involves some compromises, but I think they're reasonable. The very, very hard caches are impressive finds individually. They don't need anything to make finding them numerically impressive, as well.

 

I once made a suggestion in the suggestions forum to "break out" T5 ratings that include special equipment to sub ratings. Big mistake. I was blasted for the idea of ever changing the D/T rating as it is.

I agree with NYpaddler - just because something requires special equipment which does make it a T-5 does not go far enough in rating the "terrain" itself.

But I do still think the T rating should be a 5 if any special equipment is needed, however, some paddle cachers will nor rate a paddle cache as such. So be it. Doesn't really matter to me anyway, adding an excuse for me to get out in my kayak is just that much better.

[+CanadianRockies]

That's an issue that I, personally, have with the required T5 rating for caches that require a boat. It makes no distinction between a cache on an island in a small protected lake that someone with no experience at all could reach in a big box recreational kayak (and could probably be done with a $3 inflatable pool toy or an inner tube), and a cache located a mile off shore in a sea cave that requires launching and landing a boat through 3' breaking waves and dealing with 5-10' swells and tidal currents.

What do you propose? Having a terrain level of 6? 5 being unreasonably hard without equipment, and 6 being insanely hard under all conditions? 5 being "very hard to get to", and 6 being "very, very hard to get to"?

If I ever hid a "boat required" cache, then I'd use the "boat" attribute to indicate this. I'd then use the Terrain Rating to give some indication of how difficult it would be to reach the cache using a boat.

 

I use attributes to indicate if special equipment is required. I use Terrain Ratings to indicate how hard it is to reach Ground Zero. From the Groundspeak Help Center:

 

When you submit a cache for publication, you must specify ratings for difficulty and terrain using a 5-star scale. One is the easiest. Five is the hardest.

[+Huntleigh]

A "true" 5/5 traditional would require special equipment or a very long long hike (that might take 2 days or more) to reach GZ, then a hide that is so difficult that, for the average cacher, take more than a day to find.

And some of us wouldn't consider an easy 20-minute boat ride to be a "true" T5, even if the boat was required.

 

That's an issue that I, personally, have with the required T5 rating for caches that require a boat. It makes no distinction between a cache on an island in a small protected lake that someone with no experience at all could reach in a big box recreational kayak (and could probably be done with a $3 inflatable pool toy or an inner tube), and a cache located a mile off shore in a sea cave that requires launching and landing a boat through 3' breaking waves and dealing with 5-10' swells and tidal currents.

 

Hear, hear many of the T5 boat caches around my area are park and grabs, or "moor and grabs" if you will.

[+Huntleigh]

That's an issue that I, personally, have with the required T5 rating for caches that require a boat. It makes no distinction between a cache on an island in a small protected lake that someone with no experience at all could reach in a big box recreational kayak (and could probably be done with a $3 inflatable pool toy or an inner tube), and a cache located a mile off shore in a sea cave that requires launching and landing a boat through 3' breaking waves and dealing with 5-10' swells and tidal currents.

What do you propose? Having a terrain level of 6? 5 being unreasonably hard without equipment, and 6 being insanely hard under all conditions? 5 being "very hard to get to", and 6 being "very, very hard to get to"?

 

I think the system works fine. Yeah, it involves some compromises, but I think they're reasonable. The very, very hard caches are impressive finds individually. They don't need anything to make finding them numerically impressive, as well.

 

Perhaps the "special equipment" stuff should have been in the Difficulty attribute? Far too late to do anything about it now as any change would cause earlier caches to be re-evaluated.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

That's an issue that I, personally, have with the required T5 rating for caches that require a boat. It makes no distinction between a cache on an island in a small protected lake that someone with no experience at all could reach in a big box recreational kayak (and could probably be done with a $3 inflatable pool toy or an inner tube), and a cache located a mile off shore in a sea cave that requires launching and landing a boat through 3' breaking waves and dealing with 5-10' swells and tidal currents.

What do you propose? Having a terrain level of 6? 5 being unreasonably hard without equipment, and 6 being insanely hard under all conditions? 5 being "very hard to get to", and 6 being "very, very hard to get to"?

 

I think the system works fine. Yeah, it involves some compromises, but I think they're reasonable. The very, very hard caches are impressive finds individually. They don't need anything to make finding them numerically impressive, as well.

 

I'm not about to propose a change because I realize that it would just not be feasible to make a change to the rating system after almost 2 million cache listings have been submitted.

 

For someone that has a kayak and even a small amount of experience, a 8 mile round trip paddle could be done in 3 hours, and require less physical effort than a typical 3-4 star terrain hike that has a moderate elevation gain. I suppose it "works" if ones definition of works does not require that the terrain rating is an accurate representation of the amount of physical effort it takes to reach ground zero. The terrain rating has always been a measure of the amount of effort it takes to reach GZ *or* if it requires special equipment. I have seen a lot of listings with 5/5 ratings that appear be more about the cache owner wanting to claim that they own a 5/5 cache than an accurate representation for how difficult the cache is to reach and find once one has made it to the published coordinates. I was just looking at a few 5 star difficulty caches and came across one which a few people claiming they were able to solve the puzzle in an hour or so and spent another hour or so finding all three stages. It has 40 finds and *no* DNFs. Because that ratings only go up to 5, the top rating should only be used for the most difficult of caches, such as the Shelter III cache in Indiana which has only 14 finds and ~235 DNFs.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

That's an issue that I, personally, have with the required T5 rating for caches that require a boat. It makes no distinction between a cache on an island in a small protected lake that someone with no experience at all could reach in a big box recreational kayak (and could probably be done with a $3 inflatable pool toy or an inner tube), and a cache located a mile off shore in a sea cave that requires launching and landing a boat through 3' breaking waves and dealing with 5-10' swells and tidal currents.

 

It's all relative...I'll compare your T5 to another (the quoted blog is unknown)...I have handled 3' waves and 10' swells. I would never attempt the latter.

 

a cache located a mile off shore in a sea cave that requires launching and landing a boat through 3' breaking waves and dealing with 5-10' swells and tidal currents.

 

vs

 

The biological reality of climbing 8000m+ high mountains is that when you’re in the death zone you are burning 13,000 calories a day. The lack of oxygen will have you suffering from hypoxia, it will prevent you from eating as all your blood will be diverted to keep your muscles oxygenated, you will most likely be hallucinating. You do not have a few days in the death zone, you have one day and if you have to stay overnight up on the mountain you are most likely dead anyway. You are starving, you are dying on your feet, and most people can barely manage to lift one foot ahead of the other on the ascent.