Dnf Marked As Found?

July 15, 2005

While picking my cache searches for the weekend, I ran across this one:

How can someone use the rationale that it's a "find" because they really really looked but didn't find it because it's probably not there??

9.4k · July 15, 2005

Beats me. This game isn't about the effort you put into it, it's about finding a container at the supplied coordinates

July 15, 2005

Maybe they found Jesus! :rolleyes:

9.4k · July 15, 2005

Maybe they found Jesus!

I've found Jesus, but I didn't claim a find here for it. I put that in the "Big Book" upstairs

24.7k · July 15, 2005

Beats me. This game isn't about the effort you put into it, it's about finding a container at the supplied coordinates

Ditto:

July 15, 2005

I personally wouldn't logged it as a find, at least not after 1 try. I think there are some rare instances when it is okay. For one that I DNF, there were several DNFs for the same cache, 3 or 4 from the same person. The cache owner checked it out and reported that there had been a rockslide making the cache impossible (covered by a concrete block). The person who had been there on multiple attempts changed theirs to a find, which in that instance I thought was appropriate. They were literally standing on top of it on several occasions and I'm sure they would have found it if not for the rockslide. Mine I wouldn't change because I'd only been there once and may not have found it due to my inexperience as a newby to this activity. But that cacher clearly put in the effort imo. In general I don't think it's appropriate. As has been said, it's not about the effort.

There's another cache I've been to 4 times already and still cannot find. I wouldn't even consider changing it to a find. I think the determining factor is if you sign the logbook.

3.3k · July 15, 2005

There is a thread about this phenomenon Found It = Didn't Find It.

Someone should email the "finder," and ask him to join his in the forum :rolleyes:

5.9k · July 15, 2005

If one were to sit on the toilet (went to the location) and grunt a few times (effort), they could say they crapped even if they did not?

Interesting logic....

July 15, 2005

Where do you draw the line? "I downloaded all the coordinates, so that is close enough. The rest is just running around and looking silly."

I agree it is not found until you sign the log. As Criminal would agree, it ain't over until the paperwork is done!

July 15, 2005

I guess I have a lot of DNFs that I have to change to finds because of the effort. If effort is the criteron, I've usually put a lot more effort into most DNFs because I just keep looking and looking.....and looking with only a DNF for the effort.

9.4k · July 15, 2005

I guess I have a lot of DNFs that I have to change to finds because of the effort. If effort is the criteron, I've usually put a lot more effort into most DNFs because I just keep looking and looking.....and looking with only a DNF for the effort.

Yep, and I have to change some of my finds to DNF's because I could see the cache when I walked up to the area. No effort at all. :rolleyes:

1k · July 15, 2005

"Do, or do not...there is no try!"

ZWAAANG! ZING-ZING! ZING! ZING!

:rolleyes:

July 15, 2005

I recorded two DNFs this week on the same cache. Maybe it's there and I'm not seeing it. Maybe it isn't there. Regardless, I went ahead recorded BOTH DNFs so at least the owner knows there's been attempts. Yeah, I put effort into it. Yeah, maybe I was right on top of it . . . but I didn't FIND it.

July 15, 2005

While picking my cache searches for the weekend, I ran across this one:

Allouez cache

How can someone use the rationale that it's a "find" because they really really looked but didn't find it because it's probably not there??

Of course, a better question is, "Who cares?"

11.3k · July 15, 2005

The problem is when someone does this it gives other cachers the false impression the cache is still there.

After I hurt my knee, even though I shouldn't have, I walked .12 of a mile to a cache because someone had posted a "Found It" after several other DNFs.

Well, the cache wasn't there. I confirmed that with one of the early finders.

That is why we should care.

7.3k · July 15, 2005

Yes, it's the false information that's the problem. I recently had a cache disappear. The last folks to log it (correctly, a DNF) asked me in a private email if they could change their DNF to a find, since the cache was gone. Is it just me, or is this weird? How can not finding it become finding it when it's MISSING?

I also had a cache owner email me that the cache I had just DNFed was missing and he was going to archive rather than replace it for a third time, but I could change my DNF to a find cause, "I didn't deserve a DNF". Hmm, I don't know about deserve, but I do know I didn't find a cache.

Okay, so this is a pet peeve of mine... I'll go away quietly now...

July 15, 2005

Me, I don't worry about if the last log is an honest found it log.. Because I know even in that case, the geocache might not be there when I get there. So I never go after a geocache if I am going to be upset if it isn't there.

July 15, 2005

While picking my cache searches for the weekend, I ran across this one:

Allouez cache

How can someone use the rationale that it's a "find" because they really really looked but didn't find it because it's probably not there??

I've had a cache where I went to the spot 3 or 4 times before I actually found the damned thing. The difficulty is rarely finding your way to the coordinates. The difficulty is finding the actual hiding location once you're there.

But as far as whether we should care how someone logs it or not...it doesn't matter as long as they log it as a find but mention that they didn't actually find it. That way, the log notes will be accurate. And as we all know, log notes are invaluable in estimating the difficulty, condition and existence of a cache.

GeoBC

2.7k · July 16, 2005

So it IS about the numbers?

July 16, 2005

July 16, 2005

So it IS about the numbers?

I guess so. Since that's the case, then, I think in order to boost my chances of winning this "game", I'm going to log a find for every cache I visit - even if I just visit the cache PAGE ONLINE. I've got a lot of logging to do to catch up with CCCA, though.

July 16, 2005

If one were to sit on the toilet (went to the location) and grunt a few times (effort), they could say they crapped even if they did not?

Interesting logic....

Anyone have any ideas on how I can get my thought processes to be less visual?

July 16, 2005

I never claim a cache as found if I didnt find it UNLESS the owner emails me and says, " hey, yeah its gone, go ahead and log it as a find" If the owner tells me this then I will then log my find. But if and only if the owner tells me to do so. I never do it on my own or ask the owner to claim a find.

5.9k · July 16, 2005

I never claim a cache as found if I didnt find it UNLESS the owner emails me and says, " hey, yeah its gone, go ahead and log it as a find" If the owner tells me this then I will then log my find. But if and only if the owner tells me to do so. I never do it on my own or ask the owner to claim a find.

....but you didn't find it. Am I missing something here?

July 16, 2005

I never claim a cache as found if I didnt find it UNLESS the owner emails me and says, " hey, yeah its gone, go ahead and log it as a find" If the owner tells me this then I will then log my find. But if and only if the owner tells me to do so. I never do it on my own or ask the owner to claim a find.

....but you didn't find it. Am I missing something here?

If I claim a cache as a DNF and the owner emails me and says that the cache is gone to go ahead and change my log to a find then I will do so, only if and after he says that. I dont expect everyone to do so but I have had owners tell me that before.

Maybe that cleared it up for you!!!

July 16, 2005

No log book signed = no find.

July 16, 2005

No log book signed = no find.

NO CACHE FOR LOGBOOK TO BE SIGNED!!!!!!!!

5.9k · July 16, 2005

No log book signed = no find.

NO CACHE FOR LOGBOOK TO BE SIGNED!!!!!!!!

If you didn't find the cache, then your stats shouldn't reflect a find, but rather a DNF.

July 16, 2005

...or, if you are somehow bothered by having a DNF to your credit, you could change your DNF to a note -- after the cache owner confirms that the cache is gone.

July 16, 2005

The thing is though, that logger (nice pun on the crap analogy earlier, huh?) is playing his own game. Geocaching is an individual game. He plays by himself, by his own rules (to a degree). If he feels justified in logging a find, that's his deal, not ours. If he goes and plays Solitaire, and cheats, that's his business, not ours. I disagree with him doing that, and I would never do so. One cache I went for was encased in an inch of ice between the roots of a tree and in a hole, and I logged it as a DNF. That's my game, he's playing his. We have no right to judge or look down on him (not that I'm saying we are in particular here, but I have seen it elsewhere at the least).

No offense to the original poster (his thread is much nicer then others I've seen), but I get sick of these threads every week or everyday like this. And some are full of Fire and Brimstone over what they post about. To the effect of: This is totally wrong, we should make up a rule against this, this person is bad, etc. When will people get it? It's just a game, and if someone plays it differant then you, that's ok, it doesn't hurt you, your enjoyment, or your numbers. One guy logged an event cache 70 (I'm guessing) times, assumingly because he found 70 caches there, what's wrong with that? Does it really matter that much to people that we need to start and keep a thread going for 100 some posts?

Bottom Line: Enjoy your game, and let others enjoy theirs no matter how they play it.

Rant Over, you've been a marvelous audience.

38.2k · July 16, 2005

I never claim a cache as found if I didnt find it UNLESS the owner emails me and says, " hey, yeah its gone, go ahead and log it as a find" If the owner tells me this then I will then log my find. owner tells me to do so. I never do it on my own or ask the owner to claim a find.

I don't understand that reasoning. Even if the owner tells you to log it as a find, it doesn't change the fact that you still didn't find it.

Of course, a better question is, "Who cares?"

By logging a "found it" you're in essence telling the geocaching community that the cache is still there. This case is a good example - a bunch of DNFs followed by a "found it". That smiley face is enough for people who had been hesitant to look for the cache, to go after it. Its a waste of their time and if it were me I'd be pretty ticked. I recall one geocacher who headed out on a fruitless, 100 mile round trip after a cache thanks to someone logging a fake smiley on it.

Of course when whenever we hunt a cache we take a chance that its gone, but its just plain wrong for a geocacher to deliberately mislead others with false logs.

Faked finds could also cause the owner to think the cache is there, which could delay a much needed maintenance visit.

That's why some of us care.

BTW, cheating like this is more common than you might think.

Edited July 16, 2005 by briansnat

7.2k · July 16, 2005

Deliberately logging falsely reflects a flaw in one's character.

If you're going to log, use a log type that is not misleading. A note for a find is harmless, but as briansnat pointed out falsely logging a find could lead to problems for the owner or future seekers.

July 16, 2005

Falsely logging reflects on your character--Which also means when you do not find, you should accurately log in that result, you should not just ignore the entire search like it never even happened.

July 16, 2005

I recorded two DNFs this week on the same cache. Maybe it's there and I'm not seeing it. Maybe it isn't there. Regardless, I went ahead recorded BOTH DNFs so at least the owner knows there's been attempts. Yeah, I put effort into it. Yeah, maybe I was right on top of it . . . but I didn't FIND it.

I have a slightly off topic question about this. I have been wondering and haven't seen a good example of this yet.

Is it "good form" to log each and every DNF for the same Cache, even if your DNF's would be back to back?

I haven't DNF'd yet, but if I go out on a Friday night and it gets dark, I log the DNF. Saturday, I go to the spot and can't find the container. Do I DNF again?

Wouldn't that make the "last four logs" a little misleading? Someone may download that cache and fear it missing because I looked for it a few times without any luck.

Or, should I be logging one DNF and editing it or logging the additional DNF's as Notes?

9.4k · July 16, 2005

I never claim a cache as found if I didnt find it UNLESS the owner emails me and says, " hey, yeah its gone, go ahead and log it as a find" If the owner tells me this then I will then log my find. But if and only if the owner tells me to do so. I never do it on my own or ask the owner to claim a find.

....but you didn't find it. Am I missing something here?

If I claim a cache as a DNF and the owner emails me and says that the cache is gone to go ahead and change my log to a find then I will do so, only if and after he says that. I dont expect everyone to do so but I have had owners tell me that before.

Maybe that cleared it up for you!!!

but you still didn't find it.

If it wasn't there you couldn't find it, that definitely makes it not found

9.4k · July 16, 2005

Or, should I be logging one DNF and editing it or logging the additional DNF's as Notes?

I think that's acceptable. Once I log a DNF on a cache, I don't always log more for future visits. It depends on whether I want the cache owner to get the log in his email since editing it won't send one to him.

July 16, 2005

Or, should I be logging one DNF and editing it or logging the additional DNF's as Notes?

I think that's acceptable. Once I log a DNF on a cache, I don't always log more for future visits. It depends on whether I want the cache owner to get the log in his email since editing it won't send one to him.

I didn't think about editing my first DNF to add the second, never occured to me. I logged the 2nd DNF because I had my husband with me, a second set of eyes. So I was either telling the owner it was a good hide or that we're both idiots!

Also, I chose to log the 2nd DNF because this had been a muggled cache that had been archived for several months. The owner reactivated it only a couple of days before my first attempt. By logging the 2nd DNF, I was either alerting the owner that it was possibly missing again, or that, again, it was a good hide or that we're both idiots! I suppose it's all a matter of opinion.

July 16, 2005

No offense to the original poster (his thread is much nicer then others I've seen), but I get sick of these threads every week or everyday like this. And some are full of Fire and Brimstone over what they post about. To the effect of: This is totally wrong, we should make up a rule against this, this person is bad, etc. When will people get it? It's just a game, and if someone plays it differant then you, that's ok, it doesn't hurt you, your enjoyment, or your numbers.

Those of you who have been around for a while have to realize that a topic that has been discussed maybe last month is new to someone who started caching last week. I didn't realize that marking a DNF as a Found wasn't that unusual until I started this thread. The forum has been a great way to learn new things for me. you just have to excuse those of us who didn't hear the question first time around!

July 16, 2005

Hey! I'm a "Geocacher" now and not a "Tadpole." Yahoo!

1.1k · July 16, 2005

Deliberately logging falsely reflects a flaw in one's character.

But Mommy always let them win when they were little so it wouldn't be a blow to their self-esteem. If they weren't winners then the other little kids woudn't want to play with them. Besides, Mommy didn't want to hear the little buggers whine and cry which had more to do with letting them win than caring about their self-esteem.

2.1k · July 16, 2005

I never claim a cache as found if I didnt find it UNLESS the owner emails me and says, " hey, yeah its gone, go ahead and log it as a find" If the owner tells me this then I will then log my find. But if and only if the owner tells me to do so. I never do it on my own or ask the owner to claim a find.

....but you didn't find it. Am I missing something here?

Cache owners sometimes "award" a find for effort.

I've done that for a good effort and story. I usually keep a tight line on cache finds (must find container, or logbook, or enough remnants of a either to claim a find, or a find might be awarded for someone replacing a missing container). An occasional find awarded and claimed for effort does not seem unreasonable to me.

The Find Log that is the subject of this topic does not, in my version of the Rule Book constitute a find. If it were my cache I would ask the logger change it to DNF and would delete it if they didn't.

July 16, 2005

I never claim a cache as found if I didnt find it UNLESS the owner emails me and says, " hey, yeah its gone, go ahead and log it as a find" If the owner tells me this then I will then log my find. But if and only if the owner tells me to do so. I never do it on my own or ask the owner to claim a find.

....but you didn't find it. Am I missing something here?

If I claim a cache as a DNF and the owner emails me and says that the cache is gone to go ahead and change my log to a find then I will do so, only if and after he says that. I dont expect everyone to do so but I have had owners tell me that before.

Maybe that cleared it up for you!!!

but you still didn't find it.

If it wasn't there you couldn't find it, that definitely makes it not found

makes you wonder:

If you log a DNF as a find due to a missing cache, even with the owner's permission, and the owner later puts back a cache in the same location or relatively close proximity, would the DNF'er log it again as a find.

This happend to me on one of your caches. I went out to find it and it was gone. I DNF logged it. You're right: How do I log something I did not find?

1.2k · July 16, 2005

"Do, or do not...there is no try!"

ZWAAANG! ZING-ZING! ZING! ZING!

Acually, the quote is "Try not. Do, or do not...there is no try".

People always forget to include the first 2 words.

July 16, 2005

"Do, or do not...there is no try!"

ZWAAANG! ZING-ZING! ZING! ZING!

Acually, the quote is "Try not. Do, or do not...there is no try".

People always forget to include the first 2 words.

Didn't Yoda say that?

July 16, 2005

If one were to sit on the toilet (went to the location) and grunt a few times (effort), they could say they crapped even if they did not?

Interesting logic....

Ummm...interesting analogy

July 16, 2005

By logging a "found it" you're in essence telling the geocaching community that the cache is still there.

But the log is very clear that he didn't actually find it. If you are planning on a hundred mile trip just because of a smiley face, but not actually read the log, I really don't feel sorry for you. All the DNF's should be enough to ward you off. If someone doesn't have the intelligence to tell that cache isn't there, I really don't feel sorry for them.

Edited July 16, 2005 by twjolson & Kay

July 16, 2005

Those of you who have been around for a while have to realize that a topic that has been discussed maybe last month is new to someone who started caching last week.

That is true, but I wasn't directing my rant to you. It was just generally speaking. If it came across as directed towards you, I am sorry.

July 17, 2005

If one were to sit on the toilet (went to the location) and grunt a few times (effort), they could say they crapped even if they did not?

Interesting logic....

Criminal’s logic is far superior to that of the normal person. :blink: I do agree with him if you go looking for something and its not there then you didn’t find it. If you went to the store to buy a book but they were out would you still give the cashier your money? Or better yet would you come home and “play” read the book. I also have an example of this but I don’t know how to link to things, but to make the long story short this guy went looking for a cache but didn’t find it because the weather was cold and he fell in the snow but refused to log it as a DNF, but I’m glad he didn’t find it, I went there two days later and scored a Moun10bike coin. But this is clearly a DNF he went seeking the cache and did not find it.

5.9k · July 17, 2005

We have a cacher here with a high find count who logged a “find” on a missing cache. They found the Velcro where the cache (or the one that was in the park before that one) was supposed to be. Now every time someone in the forums congratulates them on another milestone, I just roll my eyes because I know at least one of their finds is bogus. I’ve lost all respect for them as geocachers.

I really don’t care if someone cheats, it doesn’t matter to me, but I don’t have any regard for cheaters.

July 17, 2005

We have a cacher here with a high find count who logged a “find” on a missing cache. They found the Velcro where the cache (or the one that was in the park before that one) was supposed to be. Now every time someone in the forums congratulates them on another milestone, I just roll my eyes because I know at least one of their finds is bogus. I’ve lost all respect for them as geocachers.

I really don’t care if someone cheats, it doesn’t matter to me, but I don’t have any regard for cheaters.

I wonder if the cacher in question lies awake at night losing sleep because "Criminal" has lost all respect (er, regard) for him?

Or if he just goes about his business caching the way that is fun to him and not worrying about what others do?

Dnf Marked As Found?

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