Jump to content

Salvation Army Contest - Bad Idea


Racer and Boo
Followers 4

Recommended Posts

It is of my personal opinion that the Salvation Army contest is a bad idea.

 

1. Geocahing is a family orientated hobby/sport. This contest is pushing ONE religious belief on to a free/open sport.

 

2. Being a religious organization, their stand on gay/lesbian rights is horrible. Check out www.hrc.org and search Salvation Army.

 

3. Their are MANY organizations that do good, if not better work in the community. Why this one? what qualified them to hold this contest?

 

Until the Salvation Army changes their views on gay/lesbian rights - I am "Kicking The Kettle"!

This sounds more like a posting of your political views than a real issue with geocaching.

Link to comment

While it's fine to discuss the geocaching-related fundraiser that the Salvation Army is putting together, and the travel bugs that they purchased, a generalized discussion about religion and politics doesn't belong in a forum about geocaching. If you're a premium member you are welcome to carry on the discussion in the Off Topic Forum. But here, please stick to your opinions about the event and the travel bugs. It is OK to say briefly why you feel as you do, but please no more constitutional law essays. Thanks.

Link to comment

I am not asking to change YOUR views - only presenting information - awareness..take it as you will.

 

Cache On!

Yes, and I am well aware of the rabid intolerance of groups like hrc.org. I have seen the wonderful work that the SA has done helping the homeless and drug addicted kick their habits and get back on their feet. To my knowledge they have never turned anyone away for their sexual orientation or religious beliefs. There is no better or more efficient organization in the world. If this cache contest can raise awareness and help them in their goal without violating GC.com guidelines, then more power to them.

Link to comment

I'm still trying to talk my wife into doing this. This is an outstanding organization and I will gladly donate 150 dollars to support it. The fact that I get to geocache for donating it doesn't hurt either!

 

As far as GC.com violating guidelines, as others have stated, that's NOT TRUE! The caches are NOT going to be listed on GC.com, and anyone (other than that squished kitten organization mentioned earlier :anibad: ) can buy advertising on this site provided that TPTB are willing to sell it.

 

The following is a test of the Emergency Thread Hijack System:

 

So, Is anyone else planning to go?

Link to comment

 

Since people deserve rights and not the fetish (or behavior if you prefer) they choose to identify themselves with (I don't march in Hetro Pride demontrations for example)

fetish?!? wow. that's so appallingly distasteful and insulting i don't even know WHERE to begin.

 

that said, i'll just move right on to my general disdain for the salvation army AND the united way. i also do not care for firearms manufacturers, liquor distributors or the pepsi-cola company.

 

i have no objection whatsoever to them purchasing advertising. come to think of it, i'd support even the klan's right to purchase advertising. i'm entitled to view the material or not. i am not a captive audience, and i understand that legal products, services, and organizations may advertise and promote their services and products in any legal fashion.

 

do i like the promotion? no. will i rant about it? also emphatically no.

 

i will instead restrict my diatribe to the stupid practice of using the word "muggle" in a geocaching context, which we all know is a far greater danger to the world as we know it.

Link to comment
I personally think that GC should be free from religious interaction, as the U.S. government is SUPPOSED to be.  I mean, does anyone remember what it was called when the church interacted with everything? 

 

the dark ages.....

 

regardless of which religion, no matter of how virtuous or noble the cause the seperation of church and the ruling body is paramount

I won't repeat what others have said but I think we can all guess your opinion on religious donations to election funds. Religious people probably shouldn't vote either, as that is also an indirect involvement. :anibad:

 

That being said. I am all for humanitarian efforts and supporting them as I see fit. Just because I come across an advertisement for something doesn't mean I will support it. Many companies also allow advertising for items they don't support. Look at a health magazine. They publish articles regarding the uselessness and bad effects of weight loss supplements but there are plenty of advertisements for them.

 

Ads in no way show support nor lack of support of the advertiser. They are simply a means of generating revenue.

 

I won't be attending the event but I like the idea.

Edited by Zeute
Link to comment

I agree completely with all the posters who have said here that this is clearly a case of "If you don't like it, just don't participate". I pass up all kinds of caches that just don't appeal to me personally, but I don't see any reason to disparage them; maybe they're just what someone else was looking for. One man's trash and all that.

That having been said, I will put in my two cents on the SA..... Last holiday season NPR featured an interview with an SA officer about their organization. When asked what percentage of collected funds goes to actually help the needy, the man hemmed and hawed and finally said that it was "a tremendous, just a tremendous amount". This man was a "captain" in the Army, and as such I have to assume he would have this info at hand as it is the most important figure there can be for any charitable organization. He simply didn't want to say what it was on public radio. Next up in the interview was the state attorney general and when asked if there were any red flags to watch for when dealing with charities, his reply was, "Well, if they won't say how much of their money goes out to the poor, that is the big one right there." That, together with some bad press locally about a few really questionable perks for the area SA bigwigs, convinced me that my charity dollar should go elsewhere.

Link to comment

by the way, it's ABSURD to use currency as an argument for insistence on separation of church and state. if i had my druthers, the currency i use would be free of references to god, as would any official state mottoes. my personal relationship with god is none of the state's business.

 

my repeated use of the currency that is available to me in no way implies or indicates my acceptance of these devices. it simply means that i like to be able to participate in the economy.

 

i'm always nervous when the government of any country invokes any deity. i have the gentle and perhaps naive idea that in front of god we are all brothers and that such trifles as governments only serve to rend us apart.

 

a government pretending to have a franchise in god can only cause trouble. i'm interested to hear the considered opinion of theologians and even unqualified private citizens regarding the nature and intent of divinity; i am frightened of governmental agencies that enter the discussion.

 

...which is WHY the framers of the constitution put in the separation of church and state, anyway. it was to protect the church FROM the state. it just happens to work conversely, as well.

 

as Groundspeak is not a state agency it is (and should be) free to sell advertsing and products to whomever it chooses.

 

please don't muddy the debate by silly and facile "so there"s regarding things over which private citizens have no control.

Link to comment
i'm always nervous when the government of any country invokes any deity. i have the gentle and perhaps naive idea that in front of god we are all brothers and that such trifles as governments only serve to rend us apart.

 

Yeah, these guys make me nervous:

 

...it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...

 

..are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights....

 

....We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States;....

 

...And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor....

Link to comment

GeoCaching is fun.

 

Fun things become more popular.

 

Popular things become bigger.

 

Bigger things get more recognition (both good and bad).

 

The bigger it gets, the more "issues" will appear and the more people will try to regulate it.

 

I will hate to see the day GeoCaching loses its self-regulation, however, it will gradually be overcome by bureaucrats and well-intending organizations created to save us from ourselves.

 

As GeoCaching draws more and more people, it will become more and more economically viable and financeering predators will commercialize it, making it even more succeptable to regulation, and it will eventually have as many rules and regulations as a meat-packing plant and will be about as fun.

 

Anyhow, I digress.

 

I love GeoCaching and I hope it never changes.

 

(Watch out, though...it will.)

Link to comment

Back in the bad old 1970's and 80's. I was a cop in Detroit. During one of our riots,

I went out on the street at 8:00am, and the temperature was 96 degrees. I didn't get a drink of water until about 3:00pm, when they knocked the windows out of the bank and we went to use their fountain.

Around 10: pm or so, The Salvation Army showed up with hundreds of sandwiches and iced cokes. Free to all the cops, firemen and National Guard. I will never forget how that made me feel, they never asked for anything. "Take what you want, guys" was their attitude.

Anything they want to do, is fine with me.

As far as separation of church and state, first, where's the state ? Geocaching and Groundspeak are not Government agencies.

Lighten up....If you don't like them, don't participate.

You have free will, use it ! Quit complaining, use your free will, change the channel !

 

Just my 2 cents...

Link to comment
This is a great thread!  I have been enjoying reading other peoples opinions as well!  Welcome to AMERICA - where we can have the freedom of expression! (and opinions).

…unless what you want to express is something to do with Christianity or with widely-held Christian or other religious-based moral values.  Then you will be accused of being hateful, and a narrow-minded bigot, and there will be shrill calls for you to be silenced — all from persons who; in making such calls — are proving themselves to be greater bigots than they are accusing you of being.

 

  We live in very strange times.  We live in a time where the First Amendment — whose primary purpose was to protect freedom of expression, and freedom of religion — is routinely corrupted into an excuse to suppress the very rights it was meant to protect.  The doublethink behind this bizarre corruption is quite clearly visible in this very thread.

 

  At the risk of identifying myself as a narrow-minded, hateful, despicable bigot, I will cite Matthew 7:1–5:

  1. JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
  2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
  3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
  4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
  5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Link to comment
Welcome to AMERICA - where we can have the freedom of expression! (and opinions).

While there is no doubt the 'net has taken much of its tone and timbre from American society (no doubt as a result of having been built initially from our lovely US military dollars), it would be parochial to describe cyberspace as America.

Ame... uh, ditto! :ph34r:

Link to comment

I am trying to put togther my four person team as we speak. I have not got any responces yet, but I can not wait until July's Kettle Cache. BTW did I mention that we would be driving over an hour and half and pay the most expesive bridge tunnell toll in the us, to go plop our collective $150 down to not even come close to first place.

 

This should be a lot of fun.

 

Mike

Link to comment
It is of my personal opinion that the Salvation Army contest is a bad idea.

 

1.  Geocahing is a family orientated hobby/sport.  This contest is pushing ONE religious belief on to a free/open sport.

 

2.  Being a religious organization, their stand on gay/lesbian rights is horrible. Check out www.hrc.org and search Salvation Army.

 

3.  Their are MANY organizations that do good, if not better work in the community. Why this one? what qualified them to hold this contest? 

 

Until the Salvation Army changes their views on gay/lesbian rights - I am "Kicking The Kettle"!

1. I see no pushing here. It is payed advertising, not editorial, so there is not even a nudge involved.

 

2. Being a Christian religious organization the guideline for their attitude to gay/lesbian rights is Biblical. It's what they are, it's what they do.

 

3. I won't argue the first part, but can you name one and show me where the numbers are that make the point. I don't have any factual basis for arguing this and I don't know that you do either. Is this the part that is just your 'personal opinion'? Either way, the rest of part three is patently ridiculous. They thought it up! End of saga!

 

Ah, the final paragraph, well, at last, a statement that contains some real information.

Unfortunately, it is of no consequence what so ever, and it has very little interest.

However it is the only part of the original post that has even the slightest merit. More than the rest but not really enough to justify posting it.

And, just possibly, it contains more socio/religious/political 'push' than the concept of a Salvation Army cache-based fund raiser.

 

So, why was this posted again? I must have missed the whole point. Or, did it really have one?

Link to comment

Okay, call me dumb... [pause for effect] ...but I heard a few years back the SA is considered the largest church in the world. (Where they stand today, I don't know.)

 

Before then, I didn't even know it was a religious organization.

 

They seem to be diametrically opposite of TV evangelists on the in-your-face proselytizing scale.

 

I don't have a problem with it. In fact, the SA is the only religious organization I will give money to.

Link to comment

It's a small small world we live in!

 

Kathy and I met Racer and Boo at the Pulaski Shindig last fall. Enjoyed the get together very much, meeting not only them but a bunch of Northern NY cachers.

 

What none of us knew then was what we know now. You see Kathy and I (gob-ler) are full time Salvation Army Officers/Pastors. We are responsible for the Salvation Army work here in the Watertown, NY area.

 

I've done several Racer and Boo caches and they have done some of mine. We even worked together to get a cache of theirs back up and running after it went missing. Sure hope none of this stuff changes any of the other stuff.

 

The bottom line is you never know who your rubbing shoulders with rather here in the Geocacheing community or out there in the real world.

 

See you at the next gathering!

 

As far as the discussion goes it has been well discussed and I really have nothing to add.

Link to comment
I'm with Racer and Boo on this one. I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

I am glad you are willing to deny people their constututional rights of FREEDOM of speech. It is really WRONG to do that. If you don't like it then ignore it or as some suggest trade for it and then do what you want with it. I guess there is a degree of arrogance in doing this that is just wrong. You are just expressing YOUR own idealism so what is the differance????? As has been said what makes you right over someone else. I am sorry you have been hurt by some aspect of relegion that you feel you have to destroy it.

The SA is putting on a PRIVATE event it is NOT listed on GC.com gut GC.com has sold advertising rights to SA just as they do to REI or Garmin etc.... if you don't like the advertisment the exercise you constitutional right and IGNORE it.

cheers

Link to comment
I am glad you are willing to deny people their constututional rights of FREEDOM of speech.  It is really WRONG to do that. 

Um...well, no. "Really wrong" is believing the US Constitution guarantees freedom of speech. What it guarantees is that Congress can't make laws that restrict speech or religious practice. Unless your local approver is a Congressman, this isn't really a Constitutional dealie here, just a matter of trail manners.

Link to comment
This thread is gonna get so locked as soon as Keystone stops by.

Brian, so why did you post? :ph34r:

 

Last warning.

 

Say Keystone, Do you have a good spaghetti sauce recipe? I've been trying to make a good sauce but I'm not happy with it. This discussion is no longer about Geocaching, so I figured we could talk sauce!

 

Dave

Link to comment
I'm with Racer and Boo on this one.  I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

I am glad you are willing to deny people their constututional rights of FREEDOM of speech. It is really WRONG to do that. If you don't like it then ignore it or as some suggest trade for it and then do what you want with it. I guess there is a degree of arrogance in doing this that is just wrong. You are just expressing YOUR own idealism so what is the differance????? As has been said what makes you right over someone else. I am sorry you have been hurt by some aspect of relegion that you feel you have to destroy it.

The SA is putting on a PRIVATE event it is NOT listed on GC.com gut GC.com has sold advertising rights to SA just as they do to REI or Garmin etc.... if you don't like the advertisment the exercise you constitutional right and IGNORE it.

cheers

Its not a free speech issue. The 1st amendment to the Constitution is there to protect us from the government's infringing on free speech.

 

I do however wonder who appointed these people arbiters of what cache contents are suitable. If I missed the annoucement, I offer my belated congratulations on their appointment to the Cache Police Department.

Link to comment
I am glad you are willing to deny people their constututional rights of FREEDOM of speech.  It is really WRONG to do that. 

Um...well, no. "Really wrong" is believing the US Constitution guarantees freedom of speech. What it guarantees is that Congress can't make laws that restrict speech or religious practice. Unless your local approver is a Congressman, this isn't really a Constitutional dealie here, just a matter of trail manners.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances

 

Okay so what the US Goverment can not do you are saying you can do. I guess the intollerance of people that object to relegion is just as bad or worse then people who advicate relegion.

 

I know that this thread has strayed from what appearently the OP started out but in realality it has not as the OP was voicing his opnion of what he/she felt was an objection to SA sponsering a geocaching event. Any corperation is free to do this. Intel resent had some training in Denver and they did a geocaching event that culminated in placing a cache with a number of TBs in it. Did GC.com sponser this event NO!!! But did they list the cache YES, only because it followed GC.com guidelines even to the point of having a local cacher sponser the cache. But SA is not doing any of this they are just telling the caching community that an event is taking place and that if you want to participate then do ...... Do you have to support the idea, NO it is your right. But to say anything against it is well I guess you right to.

cheers

Link to comment
I am glad you are willing to deny people their constututional rights of FREEDOM of speech.

While I agree with your point .... As has been pointed out this is not a constitutional issue ... But if it were the freedom of speech gives someone the right to voice their point of view but it does not give them the right to be heard. Subtle but important thing to keep in mind. The freedom of the press belongs to those that own the presses.

Link to comment
I guess the intollerance of people that object to relegion is just as bad or worse then people who advicate relegion.

 

Maybe I am too sheltered, but I have not seen any religious organization that is even nearly as intolerant as secular organizations like hrc.org or the ACLU (the American secular Taliban).

 

Geocaching.

 

There, now this post is on topic. :ph34r:

Link to comment

I drive a Jeep wrangler and loved the yellow jeep TB contests. I know a few cachers who only talk positive about land cruisers... I think they chose to leave the yellow jeeps in place for those who like yellow jeeps. (I sure hope they did not trash them, that would not be too tolerant)

Link to comment
I do however wonder who appointed these people arbiters of what cache contents are suitable.  If I missed the annoucement, I offer my belated congratulations on their appointment to the Cache Police Department.

I dunno. I've traded out stuff I thought was too ouchy for this friendly little game. Last year, I traded a couple of times for election stuff, for example. And I'd be sorely tempted to trade out obnoxious religious tracts on principle. Say, anything by Jack Chick.

 

As long as you trade right and proper, I don't suppose it matters if you pick something up to cherish it or set fire to it. Especially if you don't say...

Link to comment
...…unless what you want to express is something to do with Christianity or with widely-held Christian or other religious-based moral values.  Then you will be accused of being hateful, and a narrow-minded bigot, and there will be shrill calls for you to be silenced — all from persons who; in making such calls — are proving themselves to be greater bigots than they are accusing you of being...

Funny but if the ACLU thought up this cache I doubt anyone you are thinking of as being the bigger bigot would of brought up the topic at all in spite of the controversial issues that ACLU tackles with their own controversial opinions.

 

Right now it's a lot more acceptable in the mainstream to bash organizations such as the SA than it is to defend them.

 

The rule on Judging is to judge behaviors and actions and not people. Keeping it less controversial. Stealing is wrong and anybody can make that call. To Judge the person who stole as evil, mean and nasty (while most of us do, do things like that) is more than we should be doing. I'm not sure if calling stealing bad really is judging either.

Link to comment
I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

This is great attitude coming from the President of the New York Geocaching Organization! What has geocaching come to?

 

:ph34r::DB)B)B):lol::DB):DB)B)

 

What happened to 'live and let live?' You said 'I usually trash out religious materials'. Another great move for a Geocaching Organization President!

 

So, in your opinion trashing what one doesn't like, in caches, is what you are advocating geocachers should do? Well, I DON'T THINK SO!

 

If you think about it, this attitude is right up there with Bin Ladens thinking.

 

Edited to remove personal threat.

Edited by wornout
Link to comment
I drive a Jeep wrangler and loved the yellow jeep TB contests. I know a few cachers who only talk positive about land cruisers... I think they chose to leave the yellow jeeps in place for those who like yellow jeeps. (I sure hope they did not trash them, that would not be too tolerant)

I drive a Chevy and was tempted to crush all of the Yellow Jeep TB's into tiny flat pieces... They just offended me so much!

 

Good thing I only found one.

 

:ph34r:

Link to comment
I never "trash out" anything. If I find something in geocache that I don’t think belongs there. I trade it out.  Doesn’t matter if it is advertising, porno magazine, knife or anything else.  Like all trade items once I have it then I can do as I please, I can keep it, trade it, give it to someone else or throw it away it is my choice.

Thats the way I handle it to.

A far better way to remove trade items that are not within the geocaching guidelines.

Link to comment

Hello, yet another visit from your usually friendly forum moderator. I would very much like this thread to remain open, as there is plenty of room for *geocaching-related* discussion. So the thread won't be closed; rather, those who violate the forum guidelines will receive warnings.

 

There's already been two warnings posted in the thread about staying on-topic and not posting a general essay about religious charities, separation of church and state, etc. If you see such a post, resist the urge to respond with a rebuttal. It is safe to assume that the poster received a warning and that you will get one too.

 

With wornout's recent post, I also need to remind everyone of the forum guideline regarding personal attacks. Wornout's post was on topic, but constituted a personal attack. You can take issue with Junglehair's opinion, or anyone else's, all you want. But criticize the opinion, not the person who holds it.

 

Thanks in advance for following the forum guidelines, and I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Link to comment

 

Since people deserve rights and not the fetish (or behavior if you prefer) they choose to identify themselves with (I don't march in Hetro Pride demontrations for example)

fetish?!? wow. that's so appallingly distasteful and insulting i don't even know WHERE to begin.

I felt the same way but wasn't going to say anything, but since Flask did I'll second her comment. That was easily the most ignorant thing I've seen anyone say on these forums.

 

Anyway, back on the geocaching topic... About the guy who had a problem with Junglehair being the president of NYGO and also trashing out religious material, what's the problem? She said that she trades for it, so what does it matter if she wants to refer to it "trashing out"? Would it have been better if she'd typed "remove"? I cringe every time I hear the word muggle, but I'm not going to hold it against people who say it.

Link to comment
I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

This is great attitude coming from the President of the New York Geocaching Organization! What has geocaching come to?

 

:rolleyes::D:lol::D:D:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::D:mad:

 

What happened to 'live and let live?' You said 'I usually trash out religious materials'. Another great move for a Geocaching Organization President!

 

So, in your opinion trashing what one doesn't like, in caches, is what you are advocating geocachers should do? Well, I DON'T THINK SO!

 

If you think about it, this attitude is right up there with Bin Ladens thinking. People like you make me sick.

Thank you for that segue. Yes, I am the President of the New York Geocaching Organization. Yes, I am proud of the things that I have done to promote geocaching in this State. And yes, that includes cleaning up geocaches when I find them.

 

If the cache is wet, I dry it out. If the log book needs a new ziplock bag, I add one. If it contains inapprorpriate items (as already defined by geocaching.com - food, knives, etc.) I will remove them and substitute them with more appropriate trade items. If I find garbage in a cache, I remove it.

 

Does anyone really believe that an old church bulletin or political pamphlet, or advertisement is an actual trade item? If you really want these things, I will happily collect them and mail them to you.

 

I am not out there burning bibles or destroying crosses because I don't personally believe in that. I view those items as a trade item that would be valuable to someone and perfectly legitimate to leave in a cache.

 

This is not a matter of trying to force my views on religion on others. In fact, I very strongly believe that every individual has the right to choose their own religion. Just as I believe that everyone has the right to their own sexual preference.

 

As far as their being anti gay, I see no instance of their denying services based on sexual orientation and in fact they have been known to provide healthcare services to the gay community.

 

It seems that the gay community expects them to provide benefits to domestic partners of gay employees in violation of their religious beliefs, which is the root of their crusade against the SA.

 

BrianSnat: Does this mean that if someone worked for the Catholic church, but married a Jew (in violation of their religious beliefs), then the church have the right to deny health benefits to that person's spouse?

 

Equality means equality for all, not just for those that believe the same things you do!

Link to comment
Hello, yet another visit from your usually friendly forum moderator. I would very much like this thread to remain open, as there is plenty of room for *geocaching-related* discussion. So the thread won't be closed; rather, those who violate the forum guidelines will receive warnings.

I second this and will be happy to assist.

Link to comment
dunno. I've traded out stuff I thought was too ouchy for this friendly little game. Last year, I traded a couple of times for election stuff, for example. And I'd be sorely tempted to trade out obnoxious religious tracts on principle. Say, anything by Jack Chick.

 

The difference is that you're trading out the items. The self appointed cache police are just discarding them (I assume that's what they mean when they say they are "trashing out" religious tracts).

Edited by briansnat
Link to comment
Just an affirmation, and the fact that I hand out moderated posting time quicker that Keystone does is something to consider.

Yes. So I thought. The day a chest-thumping threat of moderation affects my behavior in the desired way, will somebody kindly roll me over and put a lily in my hands?

Link to comment
Just an affirmation, and the fact that I hand out moderated posting time quicker that Keystone does is something to consider.

Yes. So I thought. The day a chest-thumping threat of moderation affects my behavior in the desired way, will somebody kindly roll me over and put a lily in my hands?

Would you prefer those lillies in white or pink?

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Followers 4
×
×
  • Create New...