Salvation Army Contest - Bad Idea

[ATMouse]

Ummm... I thought we were talking about an event.

 

I agree that often there are unsuitable materials in caches. Cache materials should be trade items. I myself have remove ..."things" from caches, including bark, twigs, and occasionally, material that I would not want my grandchild to see - obscene or vulgar or both.

 

I agree with junglehair: I can't imagine why someone would want to leave a church bulletin or religious tract in a cache.

 

ATMouse

[+GrizzlyJohn]

Just an affirmation, and the fact that I hand out moderated posting time quicker that Keystone does is something to consider.

Oh tough guy huh! (And in my mind I can only hear that being said like in a Three Stooges movie)

 

[+lefty2448]

I see nothing wrong with the SA event. Why dont you guys start a new thread about what should and shouldn't be in a cache.

[+Zeute]

...…unless what you want to express is something to do with Christianity  or with widely-held Christian or other religious-based moral values.  Then you will be accused of being hateful, and a narrow-minded bigot, and there will be shrill calls for you to be silenced — all from persons who; in making such calls — are proving themselves to be greater bigots than they are accusing you of being...

Funny but if the ACLU thought up this cache I doubt anyone you are thinking of as being the bigger bigot would of brought up the topic at all in spite of the controversial issues that ACLU tackles with their own controversial opinions.

 

Right now it's a lot more acceptable in the mainstream to bash organizations such as the SA than it is to defend them.

 

The rule on Judging is to judge behaviors and actions and not people. Keeping it less controversial. Stealing is wrong and anybody can make that call. To Judge the person who stole as evil, mean and nasty (while most of us do, do things like that) is more than we should be doing. I'm not sure if calling stealing bad really is judging either.

It's all a gray area. Are you (not meaning you personally RK just a general you)going to look at a child who steals food because his parents don't feed him the same as a child who steals because he's bored?

 

There are some people out there who don't like caches and think them to be litter. There may not be many of them but they are there. That doesn't give them the right to try and destroy/remove caches any more than someone disagreeing with this event has a right to stop it. I've not really come across any items in caches that offend me (then again I haven't found that many ) but if I did I would either leave it there or trade it out. It's the same as passing offensive grafitti.

Edited April 27, 2005 by Zeute

[+Yamahammer]

AAAaaahhhhhhh!!!!

 

To hide or not to hide; to find or not to find, that is the question??? Everything else is just noise.

 

[+woodysix8]

I personally think that GC should be free from religious interaction, as the U.S. government is SUPPOSED to be. I mean, does anyone remember what it was called when the church interacted with everything?

 

the dark ages.....

 

regardless of which religion, no matter of how virtuous or noble the cause the seperation of church and the ruling body is paramount

There's nothing that says the U.S. Government is to be freeof religious interaction. As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure it says somewhere "one nation under God" It doesn't say what God. It only states and I paraphrase- The government shall not be run by a religious organization IE the Vatican. It is also stated that your religious preference shall not be forced upon you by the government.

 

I am a non-practicing Catholic but I appreciate the fact that I have the right to choose whether I believe or not.

 

This is a moot issue. If you don't like it, don't participate. Nuff said.

[+AtoZ]

Junglehair I think it was your choice of words "I trash" that was a poor choice.

 

O and just for the record it was not relegion that caused the Dark Ages but the fall of the Roman Empire and resulting void of any coherancy that caused the Dark Ages. In actuallity Religion was one of the unifying things that helped to bring and end to the Dark Ages.

 

So is the SA wrong to have an privately sponsered event NO.

cheers

Edited April 27, 2005 by AtoZ

[ju66l3r]

KettleCache, being its own private event, can do as it pleases. Of course, I wish I had $500 to put out 100 satanic pentagram or Darwinian Fish TBs and make a TB portal website that missioned you to put my TBs anywhere you could find a red bell TB or make some other game of it. Then, I'd hope that Groundspeak would also give me usage rights to the logo and content of their informational pages.

 

A private event can be geocaching-based and not have anything to do with Geocaching.com. If GC.com doesn't have anything to do with KettleCache, then why give usage for the logo on KettleCache.com's page? While the Salvation Army is one of the least prostelytizing religious organizations (apart from their website...geez), I wonder which religious organizations would not be allowed usage.

[+briansnat]

O and just for the record it was not relegion that caused the Dark Ages but the fall of the Roman Empire and resulting void of any coherancy that caused the Dark Ages. In actuallity Religion was one of the unifying things that helped to bring and end to the Dark Ages.

 

It could be argued that there really never were "dark ages". The incredible art I've seen from the so called dark ages in museums lends credence to that in my eyes.

[+GrizzlyJohn]

If GC.com doesn't have anything to do with KettleCache, then why give usage for the logo on KettleCache.com's page? While the Salvation Army is one of the least prostelytizing religious organizations (apart from their website...geez), I wonder which religious organizations would not be allowed usage.

I suspect they may have paid for it to be used. Maybe gc.com did not charge them and is allowing them to use it. Maybe it was part of the deal in buying ad space here and a bunch of TBs. I don't know. It does make you wonder, but it is their property to do as they wish. But because they are private we will likely never know what kind of deal was made. I am guessing if anyone comes up with some money they could cut some kind of deal with gc.com.

[+sTeamTraen]

If I can go right back to the general area of the OP: the one button which it pushed for me was this:

 

- Caches with a religious, political, or commercial theme are prohibited;

- Other stuff (events, TBs, ads, cache contents) with such themes are, in general, OK.

 

I don't see anything wrong with such a policy; as people have pointed out, Groundspeak is not the US Government. It could be that some of the less religious people on here (of whom I count myself one), and who are used to defending their church/state separation principles, have either missed this, or perhaps they think that the distinction between "caches" and <other stuff> is in some way intellectually incoherent. (I can understand that point of view - please bear with me).

 

What I'd like to know (genuinely! this is not one of those "what I'd like to know" meaning "I've already made my mind up about this and I'm maintaining a 3-micron veneer of sneering pseudo-civility" - no! I really want to know, if someone can tell me! ) is:

 

Is this apparent distinction between caches and <other stuff> due to an explicit decision, or did it just come about because somebody took a decision about caches one day, and just didn't get around to applying it to <other stuff> ? Or have I got all this all wrong ?

 

There, I hope I can click "Add Reply" before the thread gets closed... here goes...

Edited April 29, 2005 by sTeamTraen

[+junglehair]

Junglehair I think it was your choice of words "I trash" that was a poor choice.

 

Actually, I think trash out was the appropriate term, but I probably should have specified that I trash out PROMOTIONAL religious materials. To me, that falls under the same category as:

 

Caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

I believe that should extend to the contents of the cache as well. Therefore, political brochures, advertisements, and things like church bulletins fall under this category. I would hope that someone didn't actually take something and leave this trash as their trade item. If I find them in a cache, they get trashed out.

 

Edit for typo.

Edited April 29, 2005 by junglehair

[+sTeamTraen]

sTeamTraen: I would try to answer you if I understood your question!

Well, one of the first things you notice when you create a cache is "things you can't have: religious, political, or commercial (r/p/c) themes". And because you're used to seeing that in other aspects of our lives, you might think "a-ha, caches can't be r/p/c, so presumably cache items, and TBs, and events, and ads, can't be r/p/c either". That hasn't been stated, but it would be a plausible assumption.

 

Then later when you find that you can have a r/p/c TB/etc, you might think, hold on, I thought Groundspeak had "separation of church and state" (if you see what I mean).

 

For example, suppose the US had laws against teaching religion in public schools, but allowed you to have religion taught in public libraries (or whatever). To some people this might seem like a loophole, but it might have been a conscious decision, for reasons which we simply haven't yet been told. It's a standard problem when dealing with rules put in place by authorities: you rarely get the reason why. Often there's a good one, sometimes it "just happened".

 

My question really is simple and innocent, although 100 posts into a thread on (what has become) such a sensitive issue was perhaps not the best place to ask it.

 

I was just hoping someone (possibly from Groundspeak) could say "the ban on r/p/c caches is for reason X, but it doesn't apply to <other stuff> because of reason Y" - at which point I would go "a-ha" (I do that a lot with Groundspeak - this is the #1 site I recommend to people looking to build a big database-oriented Web site). Or, conversely, "Yeah, we said no r/p/c caches, but forgot to ban r/p/c <other stuff>, now the cat's out the bag, what you gonna do ?".

 

{Edit: not sure if junglehair meant to ask that. But I answered anyway. }

Edited April 29, 2005 by sTeamTraen

[+briansnat]

If I can go right back to the general area of the OP: the one button which it pushed for me was this:

 

- Caches with a religious, political, or commercial theme are prohibited;

 

That's not quite true. There are a number of caches with religious themes out there. Its when they are perceived to push a religious agenda that they cross the line and won't be approved.

[Keystone]

To sTeam Traen,

 

Please see this post from earlier in the thread.

[+junglehair]

{Edit: not sure if junglehair meant to ask that. But I answered anyway. }

Well, I did mean to ask that originally, but when I posted the message, it put that statement in the wrong section of the post. After I read your post a second time, it made more sense, so I left it out entirely. Thanks for the clarification though.

[stacyjo]

I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

 

As a new member to this forum and to geo caching in general, the thought of someone trashing my cache has me reconsidering my whole involvement in this otherwise seemingly fun activity. And I guess I was wrong in assuming that people involved in this are tolerant of others, despite differences...guess I was WAY WRONG.

 

Stacy in California

Edited April 29, 2005 by stacyjo

[+AuntieWeasel]

As a new member to this forum and to geo caching in general, the thought of someone trashing my cache has me reconsidering my whole involvement in this otherwise seemingly fun activity.

As a new member of any activity, it behooves one to make sure of the terminology before flouncing off in a huff. In this case, "trash out" means to remove items from a cache (and, optimally, replace them with better ones), in an effort to leave it in a better condition than it was found.

 

Speaking of religious tracts in that way will still be offensive to some, of course.

[bug and snake]

Why are so many otherwise intelligent and reasonably articulate people continuing to argue the point in a thread that started out with a total and completely null set of statements and concepts?

 

The SA contest may be a good idea or not, depends where you are standing to look at it. However, it is NOT a bad idea. You may have a bad attitude to it but as long as no one is being forced to participate then the worst it can be is 'not a good idea' and even then, only for YOU.

 

The thing that amazes me is that so much has grown out of a set of statements that the OP actually said were only a personal opinion. They were biased and poorly thought out but still admitted to be personal opinions only.

 

I stand by my earlier comments.

[+AuntieWeasel]

The thing that amazes me is that so much has grown out of a set of statements that the OP actually said were only a personal opinion.  They were biased and poorly thought out but still admitted to be personal opinions only.

I don't know that marking anything as a personal opinion makes it any less ouchy. You have to assume anything anyone says is, at least to some extent, a personal opinion. If you said, "in my personal opinion weasels are bad-tempered stinky rat-eating ginks" the fact that you've labeled it your personal opinion doesn't lessen the insult. (And I'll get you for that!).

 

Politics and religion. There's a reason Mama told you not to bring them up at the dinner table.

[+nfa]

I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

 

As a new member to this forum and to geo caching in general, the thought of someone trashing my cache has me reconsidering my whole involvement in this otherwise seemingly fun activity. And I guess I was wrong in assuming that people involved in this are tolerant of others, despite differences...guess I was WAY WRONG.

 

Stacy in California

Just a point of clarification..."trashing out" items from a cache means to take out items you feel to be trash/junk/objectionable and leave other trade items in their place...I have traded out both church and hate pamplets out of my own caches, and often trash out broken toys, expired coupons, bottle-caps, etc from other caches I find in my journey. It does not mean trashing (or destroying) a cache you don't like.

 

My feeling is that as this is a private organization that paid for their ad-space and TBs, they can do whatever they want. I'm not as big a fan of the SA as I am of many other non-proselytizing aid agencies, but I can (and will) vote with my lack of presence and participation in the Kettelcache program.

 

One of the things I love about the USA is that I don't have to agree with, or like the same things as, other people...and vice versa.

 

nfa-jamie

[+junglehair]

The thing that amazes me is that so much has grown out of a set of statements that the OP actually said were only a personal opinion. They were biased and poorly thought out but still admitted to be personal opinions only.

Is it possible to have an unbiased personal opinion?

[stacyjo]

I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

 

As a new member to this forum and to geo caching in general, the thought of someone trashing my cache has me reconsidering my whole involvement in this otherwise seemingly fun activity. And I guess I was wrong in assuming that people involved in this are tolerant of others, despite differences...guess I was WAY WRONG.

 

Stacy in California

Just a point of clarification..."trashing out" items from a cache means to take out items you feel to be trash/junk/objectionable and leave other trade items in their place...I have traded out both church and hate pamplets out of my own caches, and often trash out broken toys, expired coupons, bottle-caps, etc from other caches I find in my journey. It does not mean trashing (or destroying) a cache you don't like.

 

My feeling is that as this is a private organization that paid for their ad-space and TBs, they can do whatever they want. I'm not as big a fan of the SA as I am of many other non-proselytizing aid agencies, but I can (and will) vote with my lack of presence and participation in the Kettelcache program.

 

One of the things I love about the USA is that I don't have to agree with, or like the same things as, other people...and vice versa.

 

nfa-jamie

NFA,

 

Noted...as long as it follows the guidelines. Thanks for the clarification and my apologies.

 

Stacy

[+fly46]

"Question Authority Including Your Own"

This is worth repeating.

[bug and snake]

The thing that amazes me is that so much has grown out of a set of statements that the OP actually said were only a personal opinion.  They were biased and poorly thought out but still admitted to be personal opinions only.

Is it possible to have an unbiased personal opinion?

Yeah! If you are ME!

 

No, you are right. That was a badly stated point right there. I should have possibly said 'extremist'.....

[bug and snake]

The thing that amazes me is that so much has grown out of a set of statements that the OP actually said were only a personal opinion.  They were biased and poorly thought out but still admitted to be personal opinions only.

I don't know that marking anything as a personal opinion makes it any less ouchy. You have to assume anything anyone says is, at least to some extent, a personal opinion. If you said, "in my personal opinion weasels are bad-tempered stinky rat-eating ginks" the fact that you've labeled it your personal opinion doesn't lessen the insult. (And I'll get you for that!).

 

Politics and religion. There's a reason Mama told you not to bring them up at the dinner table.

Well, you are kinda right, yeah. (reluctant admission - *S*) However, I stand by what I said even if I do have to slightly change the reasoning behind saying it. There is a degree of crippling in ones ability to say what is intended in a monitored forum like this. So much can, and will, be taken as a personal attack.

I still contend that the original post was wrong in its points of observation and ridiculous in it's content. If the OP wishes to covert others to a point of view then the post must be logical, and should back up claimed 'facts'.....

I am not carrying a torch for religion but I hate to see anything that has a core of goodness being put down in such a puerile and ill-thought out manner.

[+junglehair]

If the OP wishes to covert others to a point of view then the post must be logical, and should back up claimed 'facts'.....

He did not say that he was trying to convert others to a point of view, but rather expressing a personal opinion.

 

The facts to support his opinion are listed on the HRC website which he referenced for anyone interested in further details.

[+junglehair]

Why are so many otherwise intelligent and reasonably articulate people continuing to argue the point?

At least I agree with you on that part.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Is it possible to have an unbiased personal opinion?

Not even Judges seem to be able to keep the bias out of their professional opinions. But then I'm biased. I only hear about the ones who make the news on hot topics.

[+Divine]

One of the things I love about the USA is that I don't have to agree with, or like the same things as, other people...and vice versa.

I love the same about Portugal and, say, Liechtenstein.

[+sTeamTraen]

One of the things I love about the USA is that I don't have to agree with, or like the same things as, other people...and vice versa.

I love the same about Portugal and, say, Liechtenstein.

Poor choice - Liechtenstein's population effectively voted to make their country undemocratic a couple of years back. Or is that the ultimate expression of democracy?

[+ChileHead]

Does anyone really believe that an old church bulletin or political pamphlet, or advertisement is an actual trade item? If you really want these things, I will happily collect them and mail them to you.

 

I am not out there burning bibles or destroying crosses because I don't personally believe in that. I view those items as a trade item that would be valuable to someone and perfectly legitimate to leave in a cache.

I'm glad you clarified that. "trashing out" bulletins & pamplets seems reasonable, but when I first read your note I was thinking you would "trash out" a bible, koran, anything with a cross on it, etc ... THAT, would certainly be unreasonable and bigoted. (my daughter just picked up a cross-shaped bookmark in a cache that she likes).

[bug and snake]

If the OP wishes to covert others to a point of view then the post must be logical, and should back up claimed 'facts'.....

He did not say that he was trying to convert others to a point of view, but rather expressing a personal opinion.

 

The facts to support his opinion are listed on the HRC website which he referenced for anyone interested in further details.

Two things, firstly, I can see that he may not have been trying to convert others - that's why I said "If" - the very first word in the part of my post that you quoted.

Secondly, I can see that I need to be a little clearer in how I express myself - I am sorry for the confusion. I was taking issue with the OP's 3rd point, not his second. If that is covered in the HRC site then I missed it and I apologize.