Graveyard Caches

November 27, 2004

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but what are your thoughts on caches placed in graveyards? I did several of them recently, and to be perfectly frank, i find it kind of disrespectfull to make someone's place of 'eternal rest' just anouther area for us to play. Now, if the cache is historcally based and centered around the grave of some historic figure, that could be anouther story, but placing a cache in a graveyard for the simple fact of placing it seams wrong and disrespectfull in my eyes. What do you think?

November 27, 2004

i personally love graveyard caches. there is usually a significant history associated with the graveyards. they are usually quite peaceful and rather than disrespect, i mostly feel a communion with the past when visiting one. certainly a little respect is warranted when caching in a cemetary but when given there is no need, in my opinion, to avoid them. -harry

November 27, 2004

All of the cemetery caches I've been lucky enough to find have been done respectfully and nicely. There are some awesome virtual caches that take you on tours around real old yards (search Evergreen, two go by that name). Many threads have been started on this topic and I do recommend using the search feature and reading some of them as they are always very enlightening.

-J

2k · November 27, 2004

Yea

November 27, 2004

I like the graveyards...even started a county wide Cemetery Tour of caches, as have several cachers in other counties 'round here. Just don't trample the graves, and for Heaven's Sakes, no burying or digging!!!

6.5k · November 27, 2004

Yea, two of my faves are tours of historic cemeteries; History in Stone in Denver, and Oakwood cemetery in Raleigh.

Edited to ad links; I was too lazy yesterday.

Edited November 27, 2004 by wimseyguy

November 27, 2004

I've hid a few in Cemeteries. I Do Not hide on the gravestones,! I either hide just outside the Cemetery or in a near by tree or stump.

November 27, 2004

I adore cemetery caches, and have one myself. As others have said, don't hide on the stone itself. Cemeteries are wonderful places, full of great iconography, that are meant to be visited. And as for the element of "play"--well, not that long ago folks incorporated picnics and social visits with family into visits to cemeteries to decorate the graves.

I was in the most awesome cemetery recently (Not while caching)...Almost every single grave was decorated with things that were obviously important to the resident in life or to their loved ones who were missing them--There were Lyonel trains sets, sun catchers, toy cars, wind socks, flags, plaques, photos, cards, letters, gnomes, balloons, etc. It was the most touching thing I have ever seen in my life. Nothing was faded or worn, so obviously the folks in that area visit regularly, and bring gifts to their loved ones. Fantastic!

November 27, 2004

But one more thought...

If you are uncomfortable, I see nothing wrong with avoiding cemetery caches, either. It really is your choice to only do caches that make you feel good.

38.2k · November 27, 2004

I enjoy walking around old cemeteries and if someone places a cache in one that is new to me, I welcome it.

Done tastefully, I don't see a problem. I think they should be avoided however in active sections of cemeteries where you're likely to run into mourners.

November 27, 2004

I have done at least 6 cemetary caches. Two were multi's that required you to get clues for the final. One of these was actually only a single grave dated from the 1880's, 30 feet off a road I have travelled for 30 years and not even noticed it sitting there.

Two were alsofound on old dirt roads that were overgrown and about 45 minutes from the nearest parking place. One of these was the gravesite of the ancestors of the cache hider.

While doing another non cematary cache along a beach, I found an empty plastic box with a lid. Thinking it might make a good cache container I Citoed it. When I looked it over better there was a sticker on the bottom that said "cremated remains of Roger Johnson"!

November 27, 2004

I have always enjoyed exploring graveyards, particularly old ones with all the awesome statuary. I am always respectful, and CITO whenever there is a need. I intend to place one of my first caches in a really amazing graveyard that is tucked away in the center of town where I live. It is a small family plot that the city has grown up around. There are (I believe) five graves there, and the whole thing stands above the surrounding area, walled in. The businesses nearby graded the earth away such that it was isolated in this fashion, and the land that was sold to the supermarket nearby was sold under the stipulation that the graves never be disturbed. In any event, I love the historical aspect of these fascinating places.

With the pervasive attitude that most geocachers seem to have of leaving a place better than it was found, I can't imagine that anyone would object to caching at these locations.

Edited November 27, 2004 by Martindav

1.8k · November 27, 2004

I really enjoy the history you find in most graveyards. and you know ... people are just dying to get in. Sorry bad joke ... it would be very important to respect anyone in the graveyard that is grieving or paying their respects. Otherwise, graveyards can be a great place to cache.

1.4k · November 27, 2004

Yea

November 27, 2004

This question doesn't have a simple answer.

If the cemetery is old, and is not getting any new, uh, "tenants", it has a historical value. In that case it would be acceptable.

If there are relatively fresh graves, I feel uncomfortable geocaching there.

But, then again, most cemeteries that are newer have undeveloped areas that would be good for geocaching.

Does that answer your question?

Just another note, somewhat on topic:

Not all cemeteries are public property. My "rule of thumb" is that if it's listed in the Yellow Pages, it's private property.

But, since I'm sure everyone is getting permission to place the caches, I'm sure they're finding that out.

3.1k · November 27, 2004

Dead people enjoy visitors.

November 27, 2004

Dead people enjoy visitors.

Well, they never come to visit me.

Then again, that might be a good thing. :laughing:

4.5k · November 27, 2004

I did a virtual looking for the gravesite of Babe Ruth. Since it was hard to find because the snow was pretty deep, I traipsed all over about half a dozen other graves looking for it and when I got got done I felt a little dirty and guilty. How would I feel if a bunch a cachers went stomping around over the dead bodies of my relatives while they were playing a game?

So I stopped doing them and now feel its tacky and disrespectful. It's also proably illegal since you're on private property and would be no different than hiding a cache on someone's private woods.

November 27, 2004

Just another note, somewhat on topic:
Not all cemeteries are public property. My "rule of thumb" is that if it's listed in the Yellow Pages, it's private property.

But, since I'm sure everyone is getting permission to place the caches, I'm sure they're finding that out.

Did you mean to say that if they aren't in the yellow pages they are private?

Just how private a cemetery is may depend on the local laws. In Indiana, the township trustee is charged with maintaining cemeteries, and all burial ground is considered "public" ---Even small family cemeteries that are landlocked on private land are open at least one day a year so that relatives of the people buried there can maintain the burial site. Of course, you couldn't place a geocache in a landlocked cemetery--nor would you want to put it where it would annoy landowners.

As for public cemeteries (read that city or township cemteries), the township trustee is ultimately charged with maintaining the land, but someone else may actually oversee them--Since someone has to deal with selling plots, maintaining plots, putting up appropriate gates and keeping up roads etc. The cemetery land is classified as public land, and is set aside in the public trust.

What usually happens in my neck of the woods is that some organization (usually a momument company) is allowed to maintain the cemeteries while there are still burials being conducted on the land. The site is open to the public, so that we can visit our loved ones, although most cemeteries close at dusk to keep vandalsim down.

For older cemeteries that were township/city cemeteries in Indiana, the person to contact if permission is needed is the township trustee. Volunteering to CITO when you do your maintence visits will no doubt go a long way toward getting permission.

7.2k · November 27, 2004

Like RM said, there are many cemetaries that is private property. Some are off limits because problems with vandals. Make sure you check things out before placing a cache in a cemetary.

EDIT: Team Neos beat me to it.

Edited November 27, 2004 by CoyoteRed

1.1k · November 27, 2004

I did a virtual looking for the gravesite of Babe Ruth. Since it was hard to find because the snow was pretty deep, I traipsed all over about half a dozen other graves looking for it and when I got got done I felt a little dirty and guilty. How would I feel if a bunch a cachers went stomping around over the dead bodies of my relatives while they were playing a game?

So I stopped doing them and now feel its tacky and disrespectful. It's also proably illegal since you're on private property and would be no different than hiding a cache on someone's private woods.

I've also done the Babe Ruth/Lou Gehrig virtual and it's one of my most favorite of any cache, virtual or physical, that I've ever done. It's especially poignant as a native New Yorker and lifelong baseball fan, and it's pertinent even if you're not, for the "historical figure" value. Here's my log/photos:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...5c-c7d9c60a88cb

Having said that, Alan, I can certainly see your point of view as well...so I guess it's "To each his/her own".

I would offer you this: Take a drive up to the Bronx and tour Woodlawn Cemetery...it's a veritable museum, between the ornate grave sites and the famous figures who are laid to rest there...Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, JC Penney, Herman Melville, Vernon Castle, W.C. Handy, and many others (you can get a map and listing of the famous folks buried there from the gate keeper). If I were still based in the NY area I would surely have placed a virt there, or a physical final stage over in nearby Van Cort park with clues for the coords gathered there in Woodlawn.

When done with proper respect, cemetery caches are great. I too used to dislike visiting cemeteries in general, but since I've started caching and have been taken to so many great historical cemeteries (especially here in my adopted home region in the South), I've changed my tune.

As a result, I have a handful of cemetery caches placed here in my adopted home area along the Miss. Gulf Coast, and they've all proven to be popular and enjoyable to those who have visited. I include the following verbiage on all my Cemetery cache pages:

- - - begin paste-in - - -

Given this cache's venue and the need to show proper respect for it, there will be NO DIGGING REQUIRED to locate the final cache container. Please DO NOT engage in any behavior that might even POSSIBLY be construed by the locals as improper, disrespectful, or sacrilegious toward the grave sites.

- - - end paste-in - - -

FWIW...

-Dave R. in Biloxi

4.5k · November 27, 2004

I undertand your point about strictly virtuals although someone left a TB leaning against the Babe Ruth headstone when I was there!. Not exactly a virtual. I'm sure there are various non-geocaching tours that take people to visit the gravesites of famous people that would be similar to an virtual of an historical grave site.

But that's not the same thing as a Regular cache as you're hiding something where people will traipse all over the place looking for it. And the purpose is not to visit a grave site of a famous person as part of a historivcal tour. Its to play a game on top of graves. And then you get into the Private property thing with a container that you might not have with a virtual.

But to each his own.

November 27, 2004

While doing another non cematary cache along a beach, I found an empty plastic box with a lid. Thinking it might make a good cache container I Citoed it. When I looked it over better there was a sticker on the bottom that said "cremated remains of Roger Johnson"!

What did you do??

4.5k · November 27, 2004

Sounds like a Locationless!

4.1k · November 27, 2004

While doing another non cematary cache along a beach, I found an empty plastic box with a lid. Thinking it might make a good cache container I Citoed it. When I looked it over better there was a sticker on the bottom that said "cremated remains of Roger Johnson"!

What did you do??

Probably should have looked for some charred teeth, as that is why the container was there...someone scattered the ashes & forgot to take the container with them.

1.1k · November 27, 2004

someone left a TB leaning against the Babe Ruth headstone when I was there!. Not exactly a virtual.

I'll go along with you on that! The intent of the keepsakes that folks leave at the Babe's (and the Iron Horse's) gravesite(s) is as mementos, not for folks to pick and choose from. Not sure what a fellow cacher who left a TB there might have been thinking.

But that's not the same thing as a Regular cache as you're hiding something where people will traipse all over the place looking for it.

True enough, but there's a difference between hiding a cache AMONG the gravesites (on which point I totally agree with you - BAD idea), vs. using the info on grave stones as part of a coord derivation puzzle, during which one would HOPE cachers would not act inappropriately (such as "walking over graves", which many folks consider disrespectful/sacreligious), and then having a container hidden elsewhere in a more appropriate location.

-Dave R.

November 27, 2004

While doing another non cematary cache along a beach, I found an empty plastic box with a lid. Thinking it might make a good cache container I Citoed it. When I looked it over better there was a sticker on the bottom that said "cremated remains of Roger Johnson"!

What did you do??

Since it was left as trash(I had to crawl on hands and knees to retrieve it form the heavy brush) I took it home. It was empty except for a plastic bag inside.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. I still haven't decided whether to use it as a cache container or not so it still sits on a shelf in the garage.

On topic: None of the cemetary caches I have done except one had me trample on graves(I know how to walk around the plots not over them), They led me to historical persons or were placed outside of the area where there were graves.

The one place where I did step on a grave(and I felt bad about it) was a cache placed by one of the ancestors of the early settlers that were buried there. It took this man several years to find the long hidden and overgrown site on a steep hillside overlooking the old homestead site.

Since he stated that he wanted to share this site with other geocachers I figured it was ok that the cache was in the roots of a blown over tree that had you within feetof one of the gravestones.

I say yea, but use respect !

To some this is a game for others it is a way to find out about interesting places.

November 27, 2004

Burial places are fine, if, as others have said, caches are done tastefully and with respect. If the idea of the cemetary is to memorialize the life of another human's existence, going into a cemetary should not be seen as morbid or odd. Take the time to read an inscription, think about what kind of a person lies there, what kind of history he or she lived in, etc., even if you don't have any connection to the deceased. That's honoring someone's life, not denying mortality. I find it oddly comforting to walk in cemetaries, especially old ones where the stones are not so ubiquitous. To me, it's a sign of respect to stop and reflect. Think about it. You might be the only visitor in decades (centuries?) to stop by that one stone and think of that one person's life.

.

1.1k · November 27, 2004

Burial places are fine, if, as others have said, caches are done tastefully and with respect. If the idea of the cemetary is to memorialize the life of another human's existence, going into a cemetary should not be seen as morbid or odd. Take the time to read an inscription, think about what kind of a person lies there, what kind of history he or she lived in, etc., even if you don't have any connection to the deceased. That's honoring someone's life, not denying mortality.

Agreed! Here's a since-archived cache I set up a while back (archived due to issues with the final cache container, not with the grave site stage):

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...&log=y&decrypt=

Stage 1 of this cache was a burial site of 4 generations of a local family...I had stumbled upon this graveyard quite by accident one day. The graves included 3 deceased infant children, and the military grave of one of the children as well. The oldest of the graves dated back to the 1800s; the most recent, the 1960s. You could almost picture the lives of this family by examining the graves and the dates. It was fascinating and poignant.

I had hidden the final cache container in a a nearby park. Both stages of this cache were well-received by those who hunted it.

-Dave R.

November 27, 2004

Hmmm...wonder what my response will be?

Of course, I love them and seek those out first. Many of the ones within 20 or 30 miles of me are cemeteries that I have either already been to, or had been searching for and not known where to look. When I see a cache is now placed near it then YEAH I get to photograph the cemetery too! Since I am working on finding the cemeteries in my county and some surrounding for either historical societies or genweb sites this is a bonus for me. I've always CITO'd at these places, well before I was caching and I guess it wasn't really CITO then-just TO!

I do worry about vandals and things like that, I mean the closest one to my home has had vandal problems for 40 years, but I don't think gc is going to make that worse.

Yes, as long as they are done respectfully I look forward to finding more of them!

2k · November 27, 2004

I also enjoy them, especially the ones in the very large & old cemetaries.

When placing a cache in a graveyard, I always try to be respectful. Usually I make a multi where each waypoint has the coords of the next carved in small numbers on the back of tombstones. Then the final cache is generally put on the roof of a crypt, where it is unlikely to be muggled. Very seldom do I bury the cache in a graveyard; but when I do, I make sure to indicate to bring your own shovel as the caretakers may not want to part with theirs.

November 27, 2004

There is a series of graveyard caches here in Indiana- Indiana Spirit Quest. It looks like most are in pioneer graveyards- micros, regular, and virtuals. Since it's about 73 of them, it takes a while to complete.

November 28, 2004

I've done a ton of cemetary caches, helped another cacher hide one and I'm currently working on two others myself. I love cemetaries....as does my wife. There is so much history wrapped up in cemetaries. If they are well researched, these can be not just a cache, but a history lesson as well. A trip to the local historical society or some time at the library can bring a wealth of knowledge that you can share with other cachers. To me the best caches incorporate some history, learning, or sharing some new thoughts along with the cache. So obviosly I say yeah.

On the flip side, you also need to respect those that are buried there and their families. I would never hide a cache on a stone itself or in anyway disrespect the cemetary. A tree or shrub inside or just outside of the cemetary itself is the best solution I believe.

That's my 2 pennies

November 28, 2004

Just another note, somewhat on topic:
Not all cemeteries are public property. My "rule of thumb" is that if it's listed in the Yellow Pages, it's private property.

But, since I'm sure everyone is getting permission to place the caches, I'm sure they're finding that out.

Did you mean to say that if they aren't in the yellow pages they are private?

Nope.

Most of the cemeteries around here that are listed in the Yellow Pages are privately owned. By privately owned I don't mean by a family or individual, but by a company or religious organization. They are considered private property with some public access, like a store would be. The advantage is that it would be easier to find the person to ask for permission to place a cache, the disadvantage is that you would probably be turned down.

November 29, 2004

I have yet to do a cemetary cache, but I have always liked cemetaries and the history that goes with them. I will probably hide caches in/near some when I get to that point. I don't see geocaching as being any worse than the folks that walk their dogs around in them with their headphones on for exercise. We sometimes even lok at the gravestones. As for the vandilism, knowing that a certain cemetary has people through it regularly will deter more than add to vandilism problems.

November 29, 2004

I think it's disrespectful if a cache was placed on a grave. If it wasn't on the grave, just in an empty that's fine. Also, I think virtuals are better; I just went to one today.

November 29, 2004

Uh, oh! Might want to Lookie here! before going any further!

November 30, 2004

How did she get the idea that caches were "buried"?

1.1k · November 30, 2004

How did she get the idea that caches were "buried"?

My guess (and only a guess): During her research/interviews (or maybe just her assumption), someone used the term "It's like hunting for buried treasure", and she took that and ran with it. We've certainly seen this misrepresentation before in other media coverage of our game.

-Dave R.

November 30, 2004

Uh, oh! Might want to Lookie here! before going any further!

'Looking for a "cache" buried there which they'd located with their GPS.'

Why on earth would someone be digging in a cemetary for a geocache? Geocaches aren't supposed to be buried

"Some of the caches are buried, or at least anchored, so they stay put until found."

Yeah, uh, no.

Any cache that would require digging should not be approved.

From: http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

Off-limit (Physical) Caches

"Caches that are buried. If a shovel, trowel or other “pointy” object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate."

It seems that this news organization needs to be notified of their print mistake.

Am I mistaken? Or should I contact these people and let them know about the geocaching guidelines that they obviously looked over?

November 30, 2004

Uh, oh! Might want to Lookie here! before going any further!

I think that it would be a good idea if one of the local geocachers were to contact the columnist and the others mentioned and do some PR, including suggesting that the owners of the caches contact the property managers.

Edited November 30, 2004 by RichardMoore

1.6k · November 30, 2004

We like cemetery caches . We have been to some that we might not have ever found or visited if it weren't for geocaching . Like James Deans Grave . At others we have found some very interesting historical facts like this one in a historical cemetary with these little stories placed about the cemetery about past persons of the area .

Take a Seat

or this one with a fantastic view :

Indiana Spirit Quest #72: Patrick's Waterfall

This list could go on and on .

If tastefully done cemetery caches can be great adventures .

Star

November 30, 2004

We have been on a few cemetery caches and enjoyed all of them. They all have historical significance. A couple of the cemeteries are right in the middle of urban sprawl and go unnoticed by just about everyone with out coordinates. Maybe we were brought up right. We are not disrespectful in cemeteries nor are the caches in this area.

9.1k · November 30, 2004

I have always enjoyed exploring graveyards, particularly old ones with all the awesome statuary. I am always respectful, and CITO whenever there is a need. I intend to place one of my first caches in a really amazing graveyard that is tucked away in the center of town where I live. It is a small family plot that the city has grown up around. There are (I believe) five graves there, and the whole thing stands above the surrounding area, walled in. The businesses nearby graded the earth away such that it was isolated in this fashion, and the land that was sold to the supermarket nearby was sold under the stipulation that the graves never be disturbed. In any event, I love the historical aspect of these fascinating places.

With the pervasive attitude that most geocachers seem to have of leaving a place better than it was found, I can't imagine that anyone would object to caching at these locations.

To me, the coolest cemetery caches are in unusual or historic cemeteries that you'd not likely know about if it wasn't for geocaching. One of my favorites sounds just like what the quoted post is describing, though he's from Mississippi and I'm from Pennsylvania. This small pioneer cemetery had a shopping center grow up around it and it is literally in the middle of a parking lot. It is an official town park, one of the smallest parks I've ever seen. There are historic markers, benches and railings to separate the pathways from the gravesites. In other words, you're *invited* to look at the historic stuff. The cache was appropriately placed in the area where the public was intended to be. Here is a picture of the tiny cemetery/park:

1.6k · November 30, 2004

I say nay unless there's a really good reason to place one.

MarcB

2.3k · November 30, 2004

Well, they never come to visit me.
Then again, that might be a good thing.

Hah! Good point! :lol:

Drat19, sounds like you need to hit my "Path of the Bear" cache next time you're in town. One of the places you'll visit is a sprawling museum of headstones!

As for me, my vote is "Yea." I like them! As for the "vandalism" aspect, I personally believe that a healthy flow of people coming through with GOOD intentions would deter some of that vandalism.

There's a series of 20 odd caches in my hometown by Hammerjane and Wildlife_Magnet done very tastefully with the nearly-forgotten cemetaries of Cherokee County. Lots of fun, and all the caches are placed just outside of the cemetary grounds. Great job by them, I think.

Here's a log from the series with a few cool pics: CCS: Hardeman

December 1, 2004

I havent done a cemetary cache yet... but dont see anything wrong with it if nothing is damaged or desecrated - dont think most cachers fit the bill. In most parts of Europe people go picnicing and "hang out" at cemetaries - kinda like a park. I don't think it disrespectful - the locals probably appreciate the visit.

December 1, 2004

javascript:emoticon(' :lol: ')This topic reminds me of my high school days when we would hang out after dark in a local cemetary. One of the tombstones in the older part of the cemetary had a metal plaque on the front of it which would come off and the stone was hollow inside. So you guys have me wandering " to cache or not to cache" that is the question? :lol:

December 1, 2004

As for the "vandalism" aspect, I personally believe that a healthy flow of people coming through with GOOD intentions would deter some of that vandalism.

Maybe all cemetary caches should be night caches and all cemetaries should have at least one cache. As this is when I believe a lot of vandelism takes place there.

38.2k · December 1, 2004

How about this cemetery cache:

A few years ago

Today

Its actually a virtual cache.

Graveyard Caches

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