The Trend To Tnlnsl, Losing Our Roots

1.1k · October 1, 2004

I know Dave Ulmar's idea was to place a stash, cache, that people could come and find and then trade items. But anymore alls I see people doing is just racking up numbers and do a TNLNSL. I mean I thought Geocaching sounded cool that ou could find some neat items trade for etc... now that is only true if your my 5 yr old son. Or do a 6/6 cache that your the second person to doit in 4 years. It is getting to the point of why bother spending my money to get items to put into a cache when alls I see is TNLNSL. I mean even if you can't use it or want it trade a nice item and got to another cache and trade that item etc.... someone may want it. Is it laziness to not trade, do people just want to rack up number or what. I put out a cache with some theme and grated most folks maynot care for the items but I thought at least jsut trade. I guess Ill just grab a hand full of rocks and throw them im a baggie with a slip of paper that is about as good.

cheers

1.8k · October 1, 2004

I've never cared to trade. Every once in a GREAT while I will trade something, usually for a signature item that I like.

Why don't I trade?

1. I don't have kids. I don't really need McToys.

2. I'm a minimalist. I don't like carrying a lot of stuff. If I can get away with it, I prefer going to the cache carrying nothing buy my GPSr and my PDA. If it's a longer hike and I have to carry a pack, I'd rather it be full of extra water, first aid kit, etc., instead of trinkets. If I fall and break my ankle in the mountains, having a bunch of toy cars and carabiners in my bag won't help me.

3. I don't need anything. If I can afford a GPSr, gas money, and other caching-related expenses, I can afford anything else I might need that I'd be likely to find in a cache. Getting back to #2: I'm a minimalist. I don't like extra stuff I don't need and am not likely to use.

That said, I still prefer to stock my own caches with decent stuff for the benefit of those who prefer to trade.

October 1, 2004

Personally, I can count on one hand the number of times I've taken anything from a cache. I geocache for the fun of the hunt. I can buy my own little trinkets. My 9yo is more likely to trade than I am, but it's because she thinks "Hey, free stuff!" But I nearly always leave something, and I try to make it something worth finding. But again, I hunt for the fun of the find, not for potential trades.

October 1, 2004

To me it's not about trading, it's about the location and the hide. The last thing I do is trade, and then only my signature coin, many times I'll leave one without trading if I liked the cache.

October 1, 2004

Have kids... will trade.

No kids, tradeing not likely unless its something I am looking for. Right now I am collecting patches from caches I visit in order to launch a patch themed cache.

If you look at my numbers... you can tell its not about the numebrs!

Scott

October 1, 2004

I enjoy the trading aspect and will only do a TNLNSL if there is nothing that I would want. Besides, a lot of items that I get oujt of caches usually end up in another one eventually, or in a new one of my own, if it's a good item.

22k · October 1, 2004

I've never cared to trade. Every once in a GREAT while I will trade something, usually for a signature item that I like.

Why don't I trade?

1. I don't have kids. I don't really need McToys.

2. I'm a minimalist. I don't like carrying a lot of stuff. If I can get away with it, I prefer going to the cache carrying nothing buy my GPSr and my PDA. If it's a longer hike and I have to carry a pack, I'd rather it be full of extra water, first aid kit, etc., instead of trinkets. If I fall and break my ankle in the mountains, having a bunch of toy cars and carabiners in my bag won't help me.

3. I don't need anything. If I can afford a GPSr, gas money, and other caching-related expenses, I can afford anything else I might need that I'd be likely to find in a cache. Getting back to #2: I'm a minimalist. I don't like extra stuff I don't need and am not likely to use.

That said, I still prefer to stock my own caches with decent stuff for the benefit of those who prefer to trade.

Ditto

Except number 1. I do have kids so I usually have something. It does give me a chance to somewhat restock a cache, but given a choice I don't carry much swag.

I don't view it so black and white. Geocaching is not either trading or numbers. What about the preparation, the search, the discovery, the surroundings, the exercise, the community?

24.7k · October 1, 2004

I love looking at the swag. However I've seen a lot of it now and seldom trade. People seldom leave what I like to trade for, but every now and then they do. Now it's time to make a calling card for all caches and start saving for a coin for caches that stand out to me.

It's not so much leaving our roots behind as it is evolution. Maybe where we are heading is a split on trading. Kids stuff in toys and so forth, and adult stuff like the calling cards and coins.

Who knows? It's still a new RASH it will evolve as it will.

October 1, 2004

I know Dave Ulmar's idea was to place a stash, cache, that people could come and find and then trade items.

Since most of the swag contained in the first cache is Outlawed now per GC guidelines, the original intend has kind of been lost. Wasn't there beer in one of the original hides?

Pocket knives, etc-

Things I would trade (up!) for, now are not allowed.

Otherwise, I fall into Team Perkyperks outline.

1.5k · October 1, 2004

I gotta agree with RK on this one... I think it is an evolution. I trade on occasion, but my interest is in the hide. I'm not really bothered one way or the other about the swag in the 'cache.

October 1, 2004

For the most part i trade items, i too have no kids but i think its still the fun of finding a unique item, i probably wont keep it, it usually ends up in the swag bag to get put into another cache, but if I find something i really want i make sure i trade it. If there is nothing worht my while ill put a TNLN or i will leave something.

2.1k · October 1, 2004

Hi,

I trade most of the time, but sometimes just leave a sig-item. Ben, my 2 year old son, likes to trade for cars and some of the other mctoys, so I always have a swag-bag when he comes along.

nfa

Edited October 1, 2004 by NFA

1.6k · October 1, 2004

I like to trade. I do a lot of TNLS it seems when I trade as the other factor that keeps behaving like the elephant in the room is that while we have bazillions of cachers who swear on a stack of cache sheets that they don't trade, the geocrap in the geocaches comes from somewhere.

After a time, you just get burned out on trades and stop. I figure that I am president of the local caching group and I want to leave a positive image, so I TNLS when I don't find an item I want to trade for.

2.1k · October 1, 2004

I enjoy the trading aspect and will only do a TNLNSL if there is nothing that I would want. Besides, a lot of items that I get oujt of caches usually end up in another one eventually, or in a new one of my own, if it's a good item.

I agree and do much the same myself - I enjoy the trade and carry a small bag with many items in it. I stock my caches well with new stuff - each in it's own plastic bag to keep it clean and looking new (because it is!), and look forward to opening a cache and finding something different and cool in it. The last 20-30 caches (I've only found 70) have been pretty sad and the ones that had swag had the usual dirty army men, marbles, bones, rocks, broken "toys(?)", old golf balls, etc. I've been the next person behind a log that left something neat and decided that 'Hey - today is a good day to go do that cache!' -- get there and someone lied big time - the item that was posted on the web (only 1 day later) is NOT in the cache. So I was told here on this forum that it musta got muggled - no cacher would do that. Uhu! RIGHT! and rats fly too. So I developed my TSLN-BSID (but said I did) reported earlier. Or TSLS-BRD (but really didn't)

So when I see that it is somewhat of a disappointment to me. We all play the game differently - I like the hunt and the find - the hike can be hard on my as I have a handicap but I like being out and on the trails. When I spend up to an hour getting to the gache and 30 minutes or more looking for the bugger - then find a box full of junk it is a bit of a let down.

It is a fact of the caching life - there is little that can be done about it.

:blink:

October 1, 2004

I agree with PerkyPerks & RK. Even though I have kids now, I don't trade most of the time. It's not a comment on the cache, It"s just me.

October 1, 2004

It is too bad that swag is not typically a higher quality than it is, but then, that is the nature of the community in which we cache.

I almost always prefer caches with swag to log-only caches. However, I also seldom take items from caches. But, because I don't think there are enough really cool puzzles going around, I try to always add a puzzle or two to each cache I visit.

I have been making simple but unusual wire puzzles as my signature items for a long time. They end up costing me pennies to make and give me a craft to have fun doing.

In the last few months I have also started making "Puzzler Cards" that are just business cards, printed out on my printer, with various classic puzzles on them along with my Puzzler Avatar and "The Puzzler was here". The cards offer some fun for kids or adults that want to try to do the puzzles, so they aren't just a name card.

I try to leave a nice wire or string puzzle whenever there is room and a Puzzler Card or two in each cache. I feel as though I am upgrading many (though certainly not all) the caches by doing this. It also allows me to share and promote a hobby (puzzles) that I enjoy. And it is practically free.

For me, if I leave something that is part of me sharing with others those things that I like, I don't care whether there is something to take back or not in return. It's like passing out candy to children, just to watch the smile on their face. Although, with puzzles it may be a bit more of a sadistic pleasure in tormenting and frustrating fellow cachers. :blink:

October 1, 2004

But anymore alls I see people doing is just racking up numbers and do a TNLNSL.

What you're not seeing, then, is people hiking to the caches, enjoying themselves along the way, and gaining new experiences that will stay with them a lifetime. My contribution to most caches takes the form of my log entry--were it not for that, what good would the cache be? I take from each cache a new experience, a new familiarity with an area where I've never been before.

October 1, 2004

But anymore alls I see people doing is just racking up numbers and do a TNLNSL.

What you're not seeing, then, is people hiking to the caches, enjoying themselves along the way, and gaining new experiences that will stay with them a lifetime. My contribution to most caches takes the form of my log entry--were it not for that, what good would the cache be? I take from each cache a new experience, a new familiarity with an area where I've never been before.

What he said.

2.1k · October 1, 2004

It is too bad that swag is not typically a higher quality than it is, but then, that is the nature of the community in which we cache.

I almost always prefer caches with swag to log-only caches. However, I also seldom take items from caches. But, because I don't think there are enough really cool puzzles going around, I try to always add a puzzle or two to each cache I visit.

I have been making simple but unusual wire puzzles as my signature items for a long time. They end up costing me pennies to make and give me a craft to have fun doing.

In the last few months I have also started making "Puzzler Cards" that are just business cards, printed out on my printer, with various classic puzzles on them along with my Puzzler Avatar and "The Puzzler was here". The cards offer some fun for kids or adults that want to try to do the puzzles, so they aren't just a name card.

I try to leave a nice wire or string puzzle whenever there is room and a Puzzler Card or two in each cache. I feel as though I am upgrading many (though certainly not all) the caches by doing this. It also allows me to share and promote a hobby (puzzles) that I enjoy. And it is practically free.

For me, if I leave something that is part of me sharing with others those things that I like, I don't care whether there is something to take back or not in return. It's like passing out candy to children, just to watch the smile on their face. Although, with puzzles it may be a bit more of a sadistic pleasure in tormenting and frustrating fellow cachers.

ya and I bet you really bug those 3 boys of yours too with your puzzles-

they are lucky - puzzles are good for the brain!

I have a book of several hundred puzzles that I have been looking for for a while now because I want to encorporate one or more into cache hunts.

Post a photo of one of your wire puzzles - I'd like to see one.

I used to make some out of brass brazing rods that were pretty fun.

(the old loop on the rings puzzle - lots of moves)

October 1, 2004

To me trading is part of the activity, although I don't always trade. I do usually leave something. Most of the time I leave my signature item. Much of the time I don't take.

Reasons for taking something.

1. Finding a signature item, particularly a handmade item.

2. There's some very cool item.

3. The cache is very fool and needs a bit of room. Then I'll take the biggest item.

4. Have my grandkids with me.

2.1k · October 1, 2004

...Is it laziness to not trade?...

Nope.

But it is fun to find a cache.

1.6k · October 1, 2004

I like to trade, I usually do, but only when there is something that isn't a Mctoy to trade for.

3.8k · October 1, 2004

I try to leave something nice in most caches.

Usually I TN (when I do take something, I usually leave it in another cache).

Does that count as trading? :blink: :lol:

2.6k · October 1, 2004

Sometimes a funky little somethingorother in a cache will appeal to me. Usually not very valuable things that I just find cool.

Other than that, I usually trade out anything especially bad, like broken toys or moldy things. I don't carry very nice swag for this purpose (mostly because i keep running out of cool stuff), but I figure a pretty little seashell is better than a smelly penicillin-covered cloth patch.

I always leave a coin, unless I really hated the cache for some reason. That hasn't actually happened since I started using coins as a signature item, but I can think of one or two I've done I wouldn't grace with weaselosity.

22k · October 1, 2004

...Is it laziness to not trade?...

Nope.

But it is fun to find a cache.

After reading this I deleted my second long-winded response I had prepared.

What else would you like to know?

October 1, 2004

I'll go ahead and pile another "Yup, what they said" on here.

I started out trading, mainly because I thought that is what one is suppose to do. I soon realized that I was gathering stuff that I didn't want or need, and I didn't enjoy the trading aspect anyhow. The geoswag that I had collected has all gone back into caches, either as trades where I took nothing, or in caches I've placed. I just didn't have a use for it.

For me it's about the hunt. I like to visit new areas, see places and things I didn't know existed, visit new parts of parks I know, and just generally get out in the world. There is a lot of space out there that people take for granted. Be it a historical marker, or a nice hike through the woods, that's what I'm looking for. I sign the logs, put the cache back, then go enjoy more time in the area that the hider brought me to.

Since you mentioned numbers, I was "all about the numbers" once. I participated in the recently ended Cache League season, which is just about the numbers. I was still able to see a lot of great places, but I just didn't enjoy caching as much with it just being about the numbers. I'd much rather have a great day hiking and bag 1-2 caches in a day, than sign my name to a log 30 times in the same period and have no indelible mark left on memory.

It all depends on how the individual sees Geocaching, and what they want out of it. I don't think there is any right or wrong way to cache. Just because I don't agree with someone's "style", I don't think it's wrong. I just see it as a part of who they are. Same holds true with cache hide, which is sort of another topic, but I'll touch on it anyhow. I may find a cache that was 2' from the car and required no effort to find. Was it a bad cache? No, if I don't know the hider, I can't assume anything. Maybe they're just getting started and need some practice hiding. Maybe they have a physical handicap. Regardless with some positive reinforcement they will usually go on to hide some wonderful caches. Negative comments usually will just upset the person and they might never cache again. I personally would feel horrible if I knew I was the cause of someone quitting something they enjoy doing. In another example, maybe a "lame" cache gets hidden by and experienced cache. It could very well be that they have some special attachment to the area where the cache is placed. Who knows, maybe the cache stuck to a telephone booth at a strip mall is in front of what was once their favorite candy store as a kid, and they have fond memories of the area.

I'm not trying to bash you here, I'm just trying to give you a look at the opposite side of the coin. With that said, if you enjoy trading, trade on! Do what you like, and don't get discouraged if others don't always follow suit. Yes, I know it can be hard to trade when there sometimes isn't much in a cache, or if you see constant TNLNSLs, but don't let it stop you. If you see a cache nearly void of trade items, put a few things in there, and consider it a trade for good karma. :blink:

October 1, 2004

There's rarely anything in a cache that I want. And never anything as cool as what I leave (usually a CD of astronomy software or cheap calculator). I take the scraps of paper, loose rocks, and candy out of the cantainer and leave my item. Sometimes if a cache is getting full I'll take some particulalry junky and bulky item home to throw away.

Best Wishes,

Bob

1.8k · October 1, 2004

Maybe, since we have more people, we have a greater spread of tastes. I don't recall that ulmer's items were all that fantastic.

October 1, 2004

Enjoy the hunt. Trade if you want. Put some effort into the logs.

That's my view, but I wouldn't try and force it on anyone. This is for fun guys - each to his own

Graham

2.4k · October 1, 2004

I like the trading aspect. I've only ever done the TNLNSL thing on one cache, and that was only because it was pouring rain and there was a line of people behind me also waiting to sign the log.

The grownup part of me feels like I can always improve a cache by leaving some good stuff in it. If I can improve it by taking junk out in return, I'll do it; if there's no junk, then I enjoy taking out something non-junky. That's the part that appeals to the kid in me, I guess; it's like being able to go trick-or-treating any time I want to, not just once a year :blink:

We have two boxes in our cache-corner, both full of brand-new stuff: a box of adult-oriented things and a box of kid-oriented things. When we're going out for a day of caching, we estimate how many we're going to look for, and then we'll take one kid-thing and one adult-thing for each cache. We also always carry a little bag of tiny trade items for really small caches (sacagawea dollars, geocaching tattoos, bumblebuttons, etc.)

Theme caches are fun, to me. I enjoy the challenge of finding something that fits the theme, that is small enough to fit into the cache, that is nice, and still not too expensive. (In the same way, I like travel bugs with specific goals --- it's fun to be able to take their picture doing some theme-related thing or move them to a theme-related cache.)

October 1, 2004

Most of the time when I leave the house to go out and find a cache, I forget the swag bag that my wife has prepaired. When I get out of the Jeep to hike to a cache I leave the swag in the Jeep. In other words, my mind is not on trade items I just want to show the caching community that I have been there. It's a way of being a part of the greater whole.

I'm a woodworker and I have a lot of scrap wood laying around, so I make small things on my scroll saw to put in caches. When I find something that someone else has made with their own hands, it is a treasure to me so I'll trade. I have found only one hand made item in the 35 caches I've found. As a result, most of my log entries are TNLNSL.

In future, I will be placing my "Wooden Menagerie" cache. It will have all wood items that I have made to clean out my shop of scrap wood.

Edited October 1, 2004 by rebapac

October 1, 2004

The two items that have tempted me the most (but I didn't take) were a really nice sports watch and a digital radio with ear phones. Both really nice FTF types of things. I was tempted but didn't take them because I really don't need them.

4.1k · October 1, 2004

I guess Ill just grab a hand full of rocks and throw them im a baggie with a slip of paper that is about as good.
cheers

Hey! We resemble that Remark. :lol: :blink:

October 2, 2004

If it's a nice view I take in the view and leave a nice log.

If it's a historically interesting place I take in the information and leave a nice log.

If it's an unexpected and astonishing place I get taken by surprise and leave a nice log.

Otherwise I just TNLNSL.

Oh, wait, if there's a $100 bill in the cache I start rummaging around in my backpack... Isn't there something... Anything... Nope. Rats!

But hey, keep filling those leaky tupperwares up, there is something about opening the box and beholding all the colourful debris that makes it worth the while even for me. It tingles that suppressed Treasure Island section of the brain for a split second.

October 2, 2004

Well, since I actually ahve a different response, I'll respond. I've done both. I agree, kids increase my trading. I guess TB's don't count as trades? it is LS, though.

For me, seeing a new/interesting bird or dragonfly on the way to or near a cache is a big kick for me since that is my other hobby. I've got swag, but I guess it depends on my mood. I'm trying to come up with a signature item that would be inexpensive but nifty.

3.8k · October 2, 2004

For me, it's not about the loot, but it's the hunt. If there's cool stuff, (by my definition), then I'll probably trade. If not, that's fine.

I will carry a couple of trade items as I hunt for a cache, but that's just on the off chance that there is something way cool in that one that I just can't possibly live without.

For the most part, I don't trade at all. Like so many others, I don't want McToys, and can afford pretty much anything I might need. So, for me to trade for something, I gotta really, REALLY, want it.

October 2, 2004

What can I say that hasn't been said. I just like the hiking and the hunt. What is so cool about this hobby is that you can trade if you want to or not.

Cache on! :blink:

1.9k · October 2, 2004

i like to trade for the odd things, the ones that everybody else looks at and passes over because they have no idea what they would do with it. no mctoys here. usually i don't trade tho.

on a recent cache run i found 18 caches and in one cache, just as a surprise I left a brand new, unactivated TB, I think i took a cool little rock from the cache.

i only trade when something really catches my eye.

October 2, 2004

I just finished reading this thread:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=81253

Similar subjects. That thread may help to answer this thread.

Maybe not?

1.3k · October 3, 2004

I stopped trading because someone saw fit to criticize one of my trades for not following a theme that I didn't even know about. After that, I didn't think it was worth trading any more, except for WG$. And besides, it's faster to just TNLNSL.

2.5k · October 3, 2004

Trading for me depends on what I see or who I'm with.

When I'm with my mother, I always take trade items, because I want her to see the full intention of the sport. And she doesn't really like caching that much, so if she sees something she'd like, I want her to be able to take it.

When I'm with myself or other cachers, it depends.

I'll almost always look through what's in a cache, but I'll only trade if something caches my eye. Most of the time, said item happens to be a signature item, although sometimes it's not.

October 3, 2004

And besides, it's faster to just TNLNSL.

It's even faster to XNSL (eXchanged Nothing, Signed Log). Try it sometime.

October 3, 2004

Post a photo of one of your wire puzzles - I'd like to see one.

I used to make some out of brass brazing rods that were pretty fun.

(the old loop on the rings puzzle - lots of moves)

Thanks for the inspiration to get out the camera and take a picture. These are probably very much along the lines of your brass rod puzzles, except they are bent from 14 guage galvanized wire I bought at a local hardware store. Also, I am trying to keep them as simple as possible and still novel and fun (no 9 ring chinese ladders puzzles). I'd love to get my hands on some stainless welding rod to make even nicer wire puzzles, but I haven't found any available in the places I've looked.

I seem to make the puzzles in batches of a 6 or a dozen, of two or three different varienties. Then I change the puzzles the next round. Most of the ideas come off the web from places like www.puzzles.ca or other puzzle sites.

October 3, 2004

Sometimes I trade but for the most part I don't need or want a trade item. I do believe in leaving a cache in better shape then when I found it so will often sign the log "TNL x,y or z". Toys are for kids and I do enjoy watching my grandkids trading items in the cache when they are with me...Thats a good enough reason to leave a trade item in the caches I visit. Sometimes I'll even leave a surprise... A one or five dollar bill in a cheap box of cards or chalk. I get enjoyment thinking about the surprise on some young cachers face when they make the discovery!

1.1k · October 3, 2004

I have bought STAINLESS STEEL rod from hobby stories that sell parts for model airplanes. It come in varieds sizes from 1/16 to 1/4 inch and about 12 inches long so that might be a draw back. Thanks for the pictures

Cheers

2.5k · October 5, 2004

I read the topic too quickly and thought it was about not wanting to trade your boots.

Carry on

Edited October 5, 2004 by cachew nut

October 5, 2004

My thoughts on why we get so many TNLNSL is due to the time constraints we all face in life. It would be nice if we all could hike 3 miles, swim across a river at the rapids and scale 100 ft cliff for a cache. But I am sure the majority of us have jobs and or families that also require time but yet we still yearn for the "find". Which brigns us to the urban micros which of course logs only and all you can do is TNLNSL.

My $0.02 worth of thoughts.

1.1k · October 5, 2004

I may or may not trade it all depends. I will leave a mini carabiner along with my calling card showing the date I found the cache, etc. If something jumps out at me then I'll trade for it or if I see something that I could make into a TB I'll trade for it. If nothing jumps out I don't trade. The only "rule" I go by is that I must sign the log to claim my smiley.

Zack

October 5, 2004

I look at it this way ... as geocaching has "matured," the typical walk to a cache has gotten shorter, the typical container has gotten smaller, and the typical location is of lesser interest.

It seems only natural that the typical number/quality of trade items found in caches, and the typical geocacher's interest in obtaining interesting and/or quality items for trade has followed a similar ... progression.

For the record, I rarely ever traded anything except travel bugs and "Where's George" dollars.

6.4k · October 5, 2004

I look at it this way ... as geocaching has "matured," the typical walk to a cache has gotten shorter, the typical container has gotten smaller, and the typical location is of lesser interest.

It seems only natural that the typical number/quality of trade items found in caches, and the typical geocacher's interest in obtaining interesting and/or quality items for trade has followed a similar ... progression.

For the record, I rarely ever traded anything except travel bugs and "Where's George" dollars.

Can't say this form of "maturing" is the norm everywhere. I'm a firm believer in newbies hide what they find. I have been quite pleased to note that the "newbie hiders" in CT are doing just that. Most of the new caches here seem to be ammo boxes, loaded with stuff, creatively hidden in interesting locations. Many of the newer caches I've visited have still had many items I would value in the $5-$20 range, even after 5-6 visits. My trend has always been toward TNLN even on these fine caches, because truthfully, if I wanted $1000 worth of $1 trinkets, I would just buy them, and I don't usually carry stuff to trade fairly for more valuable items. I'm not about to leave a matchbox car in exchange for a new Dremel tool (something in a recent cache), and the fact it had been passed over by 7-8 visitors before me shows me at least locally most cachers are still concerned with trading evenly.

The Trend To Tnlnsl, Losing Our Roots

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