These Forums

2.3k · May 19, 2006

I know I am probably taking my head in my hands here, and I will be slated somewhere along the line but....

Why have these forums changed so much since about Christmas time?

Does everyone have SAD?

A very well known cacher told me a few weeks ago that the forums bubbles and bubbles then blow up every so often usually about about once a year to 18 months (it's every week at the moment)

I agree with what another cacher said yesterday...if you can't say nothing nice don't say nothing at all

I know we will never agree with each other all of the time, some won't agree with anybody ANY of the time and just go out of their way to look for a contravertial point of view for the hell of it I think. As my Nana used to say "they will say black is white and white is no bloody colour"

We may not be expert cachers we have been caching about 17 months now, but if I were still a newbie and I had been reading the forums the last few weeks, I can honestly say it would put me off geocaching with all the bad vibes. I know I might seem to be here a lot but I can say that I do not come in here now half as much as I used to because of the doom and gloom.

One last thing that I want to have a quick rant about...I have three questions I would like answers for at the moment, and I am very wary about asking them because

1) I want a simple answer to two simple questions...which I know I will not get, as it will probably grow into a full blown mud throwing fight, then that makes the person who asked the question feel bad

2) I could ask the moderators/reviewers who I know would answer but we all know how much pressure they are under at the moment, so I don't like to bother them.

Now like I said earlier we are not new cachers and if we are wary to ask questions, what will newbies feel like?

Answer me 1 simple question if you would... If you were a newbie and had been reading these forums for the past 2/3 weeks would you still be interested in Geocaching?

One more thing whilst I am here and just because it is me....I am seriously thinking about starting a Ranting TB posting book........I know a few who would make some excellent entries!!

I did not start this thread to cause any fights, these are just MY opinions which we all have a right to, and if the thread becomes nasty I will close it.

Mandy

Edited May 19, 2006 by Us 4 and Jess

May 19, 2006

I agree with what another cacher said yesterday...if you can't say nothing nice don't say nothing at all

Mandy

May 19, 2006

"Answer me 1 simple question if you would if you were a newbie and had been reading these forums for the past 2/3 weeks would you still be interested in Geocaching?"

Yes, as the forum is not going out caching, it's just a forum like any other, however it might make me wary of meeting other cachers if I had never met any of them before.

2.9k · May 19, 2006

Answer me 1 simple question if you would if you were a newbie and had been reading these forums for the past 2/3 weeks would you still be interested in Geocaching?

Mandy

I might be interested in geo caching but not these forums.

Landowners read these forums as well (i have evidence of this in my inbox)

Put us down for the posting bug

1.8k · May 19, 2006

Yes Mandy I share your feeling that the Forum has become too contentious and confrontational (there two long words in one sentence ). It is getting harder to sort the wheat from the chaff - even with Greasemonkey.

So much so that, having just introduced a group of three walkers to the game/sport and had a confirmation that they are hooked, I have not recommended that they read the forum in case it put them off.

1.1k · May 19, 2006

If I were a newbie I think I would be troubled by the amount of squabbling that goes on here, and I would probably be reluctant to post on the forum - it wouldn't stop me caching though!

Straying only slightly from the question, I think a lot of what gets said on here is often misinterpreted, it's been said before, it can be difficult to understand what someone means simply by reading a couple of lines of text - even with the use of Smileys...

May 19, 2006

Well said Mandy. I had noticed your absence and wondered whether it was due to the way the forum is at the moment. Not sure if I could contribute to a ranting bug though

1.1k · May 19, 2006

Answer me 1 simple question if you would if you were a newbie and had been reading these forums for the past 2/3 weeks would you still be interested in Geocaching?

I would I am sure.

One can still enjoy caching without joining the forum discussions (dare I say a majority of cachers don't contribute on a regular basis anyway)

Personally, I find it ever so intersting to see to what extent some people will go in order to get their point across. One learns who are the opinionated ones (who appear to have a lot to say about everything), and those who are more inclined to take a back seat, listen, and keep an open mind.

IMHO, it's this variety that keeps the forums alive.

Jon

May 19, 2006

I'm not sure when you stop being a newbie. But in the 4 months I've been caching I've clocked 100 caches and placed 2.

Of those 4 months I've been reading the Forums for about 3 3/4 of them.

Would I be put off by the squabbling on the Forums? Yes I would.

This is one reason I am reluctant to place any more caches at the moment and yes I am considering changing my cache outlook.

My partner and I both enjoy the places caches take us to and the finding of them. But that doesn't mean I have to log them and thats exactly what we might do.

May 19, 2006

I don't actually think that the forums have got significantly worse over the past 18 months I have been watching them, and they are mild compared with the Channel 4 property forum I used to take part in (endless slanging matches about whether high property prices were a good or a bad thing).

2.3k · May 19, 2006

I don't actually think that the forums have got significantly worse over the past 18 months I have been watching them, and they are mild compared with the Channel 4 property forum I used to take part in (endless slanging matches about whether high property prices were a good or a bad thing).

That is your opinion which as I said earlier we all have a right to, but I think these forums have seriously gone downhill (for want of a better word..

The bickering is....is....tiresome

One thing I can definitely say is Daniel my youngest son (11) hardly ever reads the forums now cos the "big 'uns are always arguing", aren't the newbies and the kids the ones we should be encouraging? not driving them away.

Mandy

Edited May 19, 2006 by Us 4 and Jess

May 19, 2006

I think the main purpose of the forums used to be to get help and advice, the i'm visiting Outer Mongolia type threads or how do i? help with? just lately it's lost this.

Everyone is entitled to opinions but just lately its turned into a party political rather than a fun forum.its a sport afterall.

As mentioned above a newbie might possibly be put off going to a cache bash , luckily we attended Cryptiks a few weeks ago and saw that in the flesh they aren't a bad bunch!!

Enough of this there's caches to be found out there!

9.2k · May 19, 2006

I know I am probably taking my head in my hands here, and I will be slated somewhere along the line but....
Why have these forums changed so much since about Christmas time?

Does everyone have SAD?

A very well known cacher told me a few weeks ago that the forums bubbles and bubbles then blow up every so often usually about about once a year to 18 months (it's every week at the moment)

I agree with what another cacher said yesterday...if you can't say nothing nice don't say nothing at all

I know we will never agree with each other all of the time, some won't agree with anybody ANY of the time and just go out of their way to look for a contravertial point of view for the hell of it I think. As my Nana used to say "they will say black is white and white is no bloody colour"

We may not be expert cachers we have been caching about 17 months now, but if I were still a newbie and I had been reading the forums the last few weeks, I can honestly say it would put me off geocaching with all the bad vibes. I know I might seem to be here a lot but I can say that I do not come in here now half as much as I used to because of the doom and gloom.

One last thing that I want to have a quick rant about...I have three questions I would like answers for at the moment, and I am very wary about asking them because

1) I want a simple answer to two simple questions...which I know I will not get, as it will probably grow into a full blown mud throwing fight, then that makes the person who asked the question feel bad

2) I could ask the moderators/reviewers who I know would answer but we all know how much pressure they are under at the moment, so I don't like to bother them.

Now like I said earlier we are not new cachers and if we are wary to ask questions, what will newbies feel like?

Answer me 1 simple question if you would... If you were a newbie and had been reading these forums for the past 2/3 weeks would you still be interested in Geocaching?

One more thing whilst I am here and just because it is me....I am seriously thinking about starting a Ranting TB posting book........I know a few who would make some excellent entries!!

I did not start this thread to cause any fights, these are just MY opinions which we all have a right to, and if the thread becomes nasty I will close it.

Mandy

Hear! Hear!

IF I was a Newbie...

I would still be interested in Geocaching. BUT Would not join in the Forum, and would have serious doubts about meeting with anyone from here!

However, having read the Forums for a while, I do realise that those that put up objections (no names, no packdrill) can be -and are- very helpfull if ANYONE -Newbie or long time cacher - asks a question re Geocaching or equipment.

Only the fact I've been reading the Forums for a while has this been apparent. If I just dipped in and out of the Forums... Thats another matter!

G

2.5k · May 19, 2006

I find them a friendly and warming place.

May 19, 2006

I consider myself a newbie.

I've read some very offensive posts on this forum most of which were unecessary. There are some fellow cachers that I have respect for and others I now wish to avoid.

I was considering making some geocaching friends. After reading this forum I have decided against this idea.

I love geocaching and I have decided to remain a hermit geocacher.

Sorry if this offends anyone which by reading the posts recently I'm sure that it will.

May 19, 2006

I don't know what classes as a newbie, but have less than 80 caches under my belt and even less posts on here. Anyway, in answer to your question, although I will continue caching, the ruckus on here of the last few weeks on here has certainly put me off attending a caching event, for now at least.

1.1k · May 19, 2006

the ruckus on here of the last few weeks on here has certainly put me off attending a caching event, for now at least.

That's such a shame.

I think you would be pleasantly surprised at the friendship and camaraderie that can be found when attending a bash.

It's a great way to get to know your local cachers - I for one have struck up some really good friendships over the last few years through this sport... despite the forums.

Jon

1.7k · May 19, 2006

the ruckus on here of the last few weeks on here has certainly put me off attending a caching event, for now at least.

That's such a shame.

I think you would be pleasantly surprised at the friendship and camaraderie that can be found when attending a bash.

It's a great way to get to know your local cachers - I for one have struck up some really good friendships over the last few years through this sport... despite the forums.

Jon

Agreed!

Still being relatively new to the game (is 270 odd finds, 12 hides, new?), we have only attended a few event, and have enjoyed them immensely. They are a world apart from the forums.

Back to Mandy's question, no, I would still be caching, but I very much doubt I'd be interested in the forums. Which is a crying shame, as I think cachers may not attend events if they don't feel they 'know' people through the forums. It is also a wonderful resource of knowledge, and as has been rightly said, provides useful info to noobs and oldies alike!

And yes, I do agree that the forums seem to have got especially nasty recently. Obviously, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and those may differ. The occasional heated debate is understandable, but it seems to be almost every thread

Can we, just for now, lock the threads that are creating arguments, start some feel good threads, and get things back on an even keel?

May 19, 2006

My view is that the forums have always been a little aggressive and as a result I did not participate for a long time but this did not put me off Geocaching.

May 19, 2006

"Answer me 1 simple question if you would if you were a newbie and had been reading these forums for the past 2/3 weeks would you still be interested in Geocaching?"

Yes, as the forum is not going out caching, it's just a forum like any other, however it might make me wary of meeting other cachers if I had never met any of them before.

We are new to this game only been at it a few months and 72 caches with 7 placed and we agree with the above quote.

The forum is just like life in general and especially life where you get a wide cross section of people together who all have their differing ways of doing things, ideas opinions etc. We all have to live together in this world and we just accept that everyone has differing ideas and ways and that's what makes life interesting. It would be boring if we were all the same and wanted the same things out of life.

May 19, 2006

I used to think that the forums were a useful source of information. In the past few weeks there has been very little on here that could be called useful. Although I will carry on finding caches I archived all my caches, this morning, apart from the ones I adopted. I have never attended events, gone caching with another cacher and doubt that I ever will. My perception is that the forums are doing more damage than good!

2.3k · May 19, 2006

So the general concensus is that we would not use the this forum if we were newbies and we are putting newbies off or not even asking them to come here, and putting off newbies from attending events or meeting up with other geocachers..............isn't that sad!!

So why do we bite? why do we feed the trolls? and why do we let these debates get so heated?

Wouldn't it look better for the forum if we said "well I don't agree with what Joe Bloggs has just said BECAUSE blah blah blah...........but this is just my opinion.

I don't want to put pressure on the Moderators 'cos I think they do a fabulous job, BUT do they let things go too far? I have been offended in here and I am sure many others have too, I am sure we could state our own points of view in a friendly but firm manner without offending people, politeness is free!

I for one can confirm that the geocaching events are great fun, we have had one so far this year one that is in the planning now and one being talked about for later in the year

Just my opinion again

Mandy

2.3k · May 19, 2006

I used to think that the forums were a useful source of information. In the past few weeks there has been very little on here that could be called useful. Although I will carry on finding caches I archived all my caches, this morning, apart from the ones I adopted. I have never attended events, gone caching with another cacher and doubt that I ever will. My perception is that the forums are doing more damage than good!

Theres just no more to add to this ................I hope the people that cause new caches to feel like this might step back and reflect on what they are doing to this game/sport/pastime of ours, we do this for FUN

Mandy

1.1k · May 19, 2006

I use the forums with an open mind.

Be positive, encourage, and don't let the minority spoil things for the rest of us.

We are all here to enjoy ourselves.

Jon

May 19, 2006

Hopefully, this thread will be the end of it all. What people need to realise before they post, is that behind each of the nicknames on the forum is a real person.

Something that I don't like about the forums, is that the starter of a thread is able to lock it. In recent weeks, we've had topic rumbling on across numerous thread because a user decides that they don't like what they're hearing. Once everyone has had their say, the topic will gradually fall down the list.

Also, as Mandy has said, it seems as if people feel required to post to a thread regardless of whether they have something constructive to say. There is nothing wrong with saying something is wrong with a particular topic, that's all part of normal debate, but lets keep it civilised.

Then there is the recent concern over a cache in a cave which people had strong opinions on. The problem came when people tried to gauge the opinion of the forum without telling us all the facts. If people have valid concerns about a cache, as in this case, then lets discuss the cache itself as opposed to statements about how cachers should respect their environment which we can expect everyone should agree to.

Edit to summarise my opinion on thread locking, it should be up to the moderators to decide when a thread is getting nasty.

Edited May 19, 2006 by adambro

May 19, 2006

you must have read my mind mandy beacause this is just what i have being thinking latly in fact if you hadnt done this thread then i would have done.

i used to love coming on the forums not any more i hardly come on now,and when i do its nearly always bickering.

no it wont put me off caching but i wont be logging on to the forums much,and i certainly wouldnt tell any newbies about it.

you wouldnt think that this was caching,the way some people are . WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE TO BE LIKE THIS.

so well said mandy

3.7k · May 19, 2006

I quite agree that you have to be careful about directing new cachers at the forums. Yes, it could put someone off what should be an innocent, escapist pastime, but the main forum (at least) is a source of useful information and news.

If said newbie is a seasoned Internet forum user, however, I don't think they'll be put off by the banter here, even though it does go too far at times. Like other forums, it's hard to get the balance right between "lively" and "intimidating".

I've certainly seen worse elsewhere: also, I don't think this UK backwater is as "difficult" as the main forum area. I do find that people tend to be too sensitive here, and retaliate fiercely to comments or questions that weren't meant to be an attack but were worded clumsily (or sometimes not even clumsily ). Often I see reference to someone's "offensive" post, then struggle to understand what part of the post would have caused offence.

Remember that this isn't meant to be simply a source of information (although that's an important aspect of the UK forum), but also to discuss various geocaching-related topics, sharing ideas and offering opinions. Discussion is bound to flare up into argument from time to time (I think that's called a "lively debate" ) but people aren't enemies just because they can't agree on a minor point.

But perhaps, as this is such a very public area, we should agree to restrict posts to certain types of topic (i.e. non-contentious, non-debatable) and use the GCUK forums for any discussions/debates. I think that other countries and states have used this approach, which is why their geocaching.com forum is more or less dead.

Again, only my opinion and I hope no-one takes it as directed towards him/her.

HH

May 19, 2006

I am a newbie (1 find but I've not logged it yet ) and I've not been put off one little bit, ok so I started one of the contentious threads, but the points I raised were (eventually, after a bit of bikering) answered to my satisfaction.

Maybe a "moaning minnies" section should be added where people can have a moan or raise issues?

3.9k · May 19, 2006

So, should I apologise for having opinions?

May 19, 2006

This forum has gone through similar periods of difficulty in the three or so years that I've been involved in geocaching (and more before that I understand). I think that it's inevitable when there is a large and diverse number of people frequenting a forum, in which contact is not face-to-face. I don't think that it can be avoided, but it's timely for people to be reminded that there's more to be gained from constructive comments than negative ones.

There are huge numbers of cachers who don't come here, so I wouldn't be too worried about it. There are also a number of more local geocaching forums that people get a lot out of.

1.8k · May 19, 2006

So, should I apologise for having opinions?

Not if they are the same as mine!

Doesn't it all boil down to consideration for others?

2.3k · May 19, 2006

So, should I apologise for having opinions?

No not at all Ian we all have a right to our own opinions as I said earlier, I just think some people need to think about what they have typed before hitting the send button and try to make their comments polite and more constructive or give a reason why they disagree.

I agree totally with what Adambro said earlier ............. we are real people with real feelings behind these Geocaching names.

Mandy

May 19, 2006

Absolutely spot on Mandy !!!

I started using these forums many moons ago and got an awful lot of help with the basics such as Memory Map problems etc.

Recently I posted a question concerning my new GPSr and the software it could use and guess what.........not a single reply.

I'm sure its not because no-one has the same GPSr as myself, it was because everyone else was too involved in grabbing hand fulls of mud and throwing it around.

I watch these forums now just in case someone genuinely wants help or there is something of interest to myself concerning our beloved sport ( using that term very loosely coz of recent events on here ) but I'm sorry to say that its become just another 'bitching column' in a newspaper...

Also, I will add that the cachers who Bonnie and I have met 'out in the field' or have had contact with have been very pleasant and helpful and its been great to talk to them and guess what ?

They hardly post on here.....can anyone see a connection there ????

2.5k · May 19, 2006

Would these forums put a newbie off? Well possibly, but not perhaps if they had previous experience of other forums. I have found that any forum/email list/chat room I have ever ventured into is fairly similar. Various 'types' are even readily identifiable. I have found this even with forums where all the people actually know each other, and the effect is magnified when they are a disparate bunch of strangers who just happen to share a common interest.

I think it's all very understandable that Mandy would like everybody to be nice to each other in here, but alas, I fear that it's just not human nature. I am not sure there is a solution. I reckon that most people sus out that most forum inhabitants are basically just regular folks, like themselves... eventually!

I also read a forum which is heavily moderated to present a squeaky clean public face to the world, where there is a members only section for the handbag fights and bitching, oops, I mean 'internal discussions' to go on in. The public forum basically does not get a whole heap of traffic.

Read the sig! Says it all!!

3.7k · May 19, 2006

...

That's just what I said! Does no-one ever read my posts

(only kidding...)

I agree that the regular forum debaters are only a small subset of the geocaching community in any case, so don't let a few misguided or badly-worded posts put you off the whole game. Many (most?) geocachers haven't even heard of the forum. Some that come over as quite aggressive are anything but, in reality: it's just their writing style. Make allowances, take comments with a pinch of salt, and ignore the rants. We do have moderators, and they will eliminate any genuinely offensive stuff (and will bring in the fire extinguishers when necessary).

HH

Edited May 19, 2006 by Happy Humphrey

May 19, 2006

Hopefully, this thread will be the end of it all.

Sadly I don't think it will change anything. If I could suggest something that would then I would, but I cant so I won't.

So, should I apologise for having opinions?

No, just for expressing them.

If you want my opinion all this unrest is because of communication problems, something that I truly believe causes over 90% of the world's problems.

1.1k · May 19, 2006

Would it help if there were some more smileys?

There is a reasonable selection but I think we could do with maybe a half a dozen more...

May 19, 2006

Would it help if there were some more smileys?

I tried to post a few :)s and got the message

You have posted a message with more emoticons that this board allows. Please reduce the number of emoticons you've added to the message

3.8k · May 19, 2006

Would it help if there were some more smileys?

Yep you can never find the right smiley .....

Edited May 19, 2006 by Deego

May 19, 2006

Would it help if there were some more smileys?

A devil smiley, or one holding a wooden spoon perhaps?

May 19, 2006

If anyone is interested my favorite smiley is

May 19, 2006

If i was a newbie i know i'd still cache, but i'm not sure about using the forums.

To be honest, even after reading the forums for 2 years now since i started caching, i still feel that i'm finding my way here and am very concious of what i write.

The only other forum i really use is a motorbike one where pretty much anything (within reason, offensive material etc) goes, where everyone has an opinion and discussions generally turn into 20 page discussions or rows, throwing toys out of the pram and friendly insults are common and just about any topic can be and has been discussed, not just limited to motorbikes.

It's just the same as being in the pub talking with mates, with general conversations but no booze.

Coming here has been totally different, off topic threads seem to be met with anger and conversations are 100% about caching, which certainly was very daunting when as a newbie and trying to fit in here if you don't have the vast knowledge others seem to have.

So i'm very concious of what i write here, not wanting to be flamed for talking off topic. Elsewhere i'm well known for (despite being female) having a barrack sense of humour, not suffering fools and witty one liners. Great for motorbike or military boards etc but not for here. I'm sure that once i've found my feet here i'll relax more and be 'me' a little more without having to worry about being flamed or somehting.

Ashaaria.....slightly more strait laced than elsewhere

May 19, 2006

As mentioned above a newbie might possibly be put off going to a cache bash , luckily we attended Cryptiks a few weeks ago and saw that in the flesh they aren't a bad bunch!!

I guess you mean cachers in general. The Cryptik Souls Crew are bad to the bone!

6.2k · May 19, 2006

Even with recent raised levels of testosterone this forum has the most polite arguments and restrained rants that I've seen on the Internet. It's still not 'ideal', but the low number of locked and 'edited by mod for content' threads and posts says a lot about the quality of this forum. I think we can be proud that contentious issues can be discussed in a *fairly* friendly/grown-up way. I see reasoned argument more than slanging matches and have identified very few individuals who I believe enjoy being a deliberately disruptive element. Even they don't seem malicious, I think it's just attention seeking, and are easily dealt with. On the whole, if I were a new user of this forum (as I once were) who'd read some silly rows on this forum (as I did) I'd not let it stop me either caching or making a hopefully positive contribution here. Dig out my first ever post with a forum search if you want to see what I mean

May 19, 2006

I don't know what classes as a newbie, but have less than 80 caches under my belt and even less posts on here. Anyway, in answer to your question, although I will continue caching, the ruckus on here of the last few weeks on here has certainly put me off attending a caching event, for now at least.

I can assure, you and I think a lot of people will back me up here, are really nice people to meet, we all have disagreements on the forum, but this no way reflects what happens at events.

May 19, 2006

I think the main purpose of the forums used to be to get help and advice, the i'm visiting Outer Mongolia type threads or how do i? help with? just lately it's lost this.

We're Newbies. tteggod trackers was kind enough to email us when we registered to welcome us to the world of caching - even offered a spare GPS (which we've not used, but for which we are very grateful). We've looked at the forums for exactly the reason stated in the quote above: for guidance and advice.

Geocaching doesn't need to be an Internet-based activity - in fact the whole reason why we took it up was because it gave an extra purpose to our weekend rambling activities. We're not interested in clocking up masses of finds, and won't be placing our first cache until we're really sure we've found a good spot. As for CotM - forget it - that's not what it's about for us.

There will always be some (rather sad....IMHO) individuals who get so wrapped up in the Geocaching community that they feel they can air their views as if they were in a room with a bunch of well-acquainted friends. Personally, we 4 Badgers are not interested in the sort of arguments they have, and if we spot a thread that seems to go off on a tangent, we don't bother reading.

We may not all be adults here in the forums, and we certainly don't all know one another - that's the bottom line, and one the 4 Badgers bear in mind when posting. Should there be an alternative forum for 'friends'?

May 19, 2006

I find them a friendly and warming place.

Well said Sir.

After all its only a game.

1.7k · May 19, 2006

Amazing what happens when I have the temerity to leave the forum for a few hours to go and live "real" life (That's a joke by the way in case anyone gets offended) - and that's a joke too

A very interesting post Mandy and I know exactly what you mean. I have been moderating this forum for a couple of years and certainly from time to time things tend to flare up but they usually quieten down after a short while.

However the past few weeks have been unusually "difficult" with many different arguments rumbling along, or so it seems to me. So should I close threads more often? I don't think I should. I hate and detest censorship and other people telling me what I can and cannot read. It is unfortunate that there are so many disagreements around at the moment but almost all of them have been conducted within the forum guidelines. There is no guideline against being a "moaning minnie" (not that I class you as such Mandy!!) so despite me feeling dispirited at the way things have been going I cannot in all conscience stop these threads.

What would I think if I were new to these forums? I suspect I would begin to wonder whether I wanted to join in for fear of someone jumping down my throat. This is a great shame.

All that being said, I think there is much less angst expressed in the UK forum than some of the others. I would urge people to try and be a little less sensitive and not to take things too personally.

OK, I'll now try and get around to reviewing the page of new submissions once I've finished reading all the posts since I left the forum this morning.

2.3k · May 19, 2006

I do tend to think most people remember this is a family forum

Can I put it another way...when you are typing what ever you want to say, remember my 11 year old son or another kid could be the next person to read what you have typed.

If you had kids aged from say 7-15 would you be happy to let them read these forums at the present time?

Mandy

Edited May 19, 2006 by Us 4 and Jess

2.5k · May 19, 2006

I guess you mean cachers in general. The Cryptik Souls Crew are bad to the bone!

I think not, quite a nice person with conservation being one of the Crews finest points

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