Censors on the Job

2.7k · September 10, 2003

quote:
Turn it around - if you found literature for a belief system you found offensive, would you want to accessible for your children?

No need to turn it around. Christians are CONSTANTLY bombarded by advertisements and images that many consider offensive, (Note I said MANY, not ALL). We are constantly accused of "trying to force our views on others". The fact of a Christian opening hisher mouth at all is condemned by the most vocal of society. None of these self-proclaimed gaurdians of society complains when pentagrams and occultic literature are found in public places. Nor do they complain when main-stream advertisers use nudity to sell their products- and when a Christian does, heshe is automatically branded a "fanatic".

The person who removed the item from the cache is a religiophobic fanatic. So there. "I turned it around".

quote:
(Warm Fuzzies)
There's a much more pragmatic reason for removing tracts (and other advertising) from caches: when paper gets wet, it gets slimy and moldy. I can't think of a single time I've found advertising materials in a cache that they weren't about halfway back to being wood pulp. In one memorable cache, the mold had spread to the point that it destroyed a CD-R someone had left in the cache (somehow the mold got under the aluminum layer.)

An awlful lot of assumptions here. As has already been said, same with log book. The differentiation is bias, plain and simple.

quote:
Lastly, I consider tracts largely a waste of effort & resources. In order to convince another person of your viewpoint you do so by building a relationship and by example. A piece of paper is not adequate to express the fullness of a life with Christ. Also, if you build relationships just to espouse your views, then you are being deceitful, in reality.

If you want to reach people, then first get to know people. If the opportunity to try to share with them never occurs, and you consider that it was all a waste of time, then you should examine your motives.

In other words, just be real. I would not put tracts in a cache because I don't believe the cache to be the proper vehicle for evangelism. If someone else does, then that's fine, and it's not my place to take stuff out of the cache, unless I trade something of equal value (and I would base the value on what it was worth to the person who placed it).

Absolutely true.

Don't you just hate it when someone comes up to you in a supermarket line and asks "are you saved"? That kind of behaviour is not what Jesus had in mind.

A famous Christian once said, "I will witness for Christ all day long, and if NECESSARY, I'll use words." (rough quote) Meaning- his LIFE is his witness. That is and always should be the first step. Build a personal relationship. Then if asked, and only if asked, one can talk about Christ.

However, this does NOT mean we can't or shouldn't discuss religion in public, only that we should not "barge in" where we have no invitation to butt in.

And the mere use of God's name does not constitute religious discussion.

quote:
It is becoming nearly impossible to do anything in this day and age without offending someone.

Since when did the constitution have an ammendment that forbids offending anyone, anyway?

Come to think of it, that's not even one of the ten commandments either....

Right on!

I, you or anyone else cannot offend anyone. We merely do or say or write something and the "offendee" takes offense. Being offended is totally under the control of the "offendee". We each react in a certain way, emotionally, to all the stimuli that come our way. We make a choice whether to be offended or to let it go.

I am an ordained minister, but not a full time preacher. At my place of employment, many times people will apologize for cussing in front of me. While I think their apologizing is a good thing, I do explain to them that I can handle it and do not belittle them or take offense for their language. That is because I am not responsible for their mouths, only my own. It offends me when I cuss, or when I say something that hurts someone, or when I do something that I know better- not when someone else does it.

People need to lighten up on the getting offended thing. We are a world of over 6 billion DIFFERENT people. The world is made better by our differences. We need to let each other be individuals.

But we still have an obligation to warn someone of danger that we perceive and that they might not. (whether physical or spiritual) To fail to do so is deriliction of human duty. If this is the motivation of the tract placers, then I applaud them, even though I believe their methods are very unproductive.

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

--Acts 4:12

God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.

GDAE, Dave

38.2k · September 10, 2003

quote:
Leaving pamphlets or tracts of a promotional nature in a Geocaching.com listed cache is not appropriate, and I think it is disrespectful to Geocaching.com, who has made it clear that they do not want their site used as a promotional instrument by anyone.

quote:
I am not anti or pro religion, I am anti-pimping your religious propaganda in inappropriate places

In the NY/NJ metro there is an organization whose purpose is to build, maintain and protect hiking trails. Many local geocachers are members and the existence of these trails are part why this sport is so successful in this area.

I've left patches, decals, bumper stickers and brochures for this org. in caches and they are items that are eagerly sought after. Am I "pimping", or being "disrepectful to GC.COM"? I don't think so. Nor do I see the difference between this and placing a religious brochure in a cache.

Early on, GC.COM took a stand against commercial caches because they realized that eventually every yard sale and local ice cream parlor would place a cache next to the till. It was not a direction they wanted to go in.

This being said, I don't see the problem if some geocacher tosses in a brochure along with their trade items. If you don't want to read it, nobody is forcing you.

I've found religious tracts in some of my caches when I went to clean them out. Being a devout agnostic, my initial reaction was to take them and toss them. But I thought "Realistically, what is the harm?". "Maybe someone will be interested", so I left them. I figured that people who aren't interested would ignore them and, heck, some theif might find their God and change his ways.

Come one people, stop being offended by every little thing. Lighten up a little!

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on September 10, 2003 at 07:01 PM.]

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on September 11, 2003 at 03:21 AM.]

38.2k · September 10, 2003

quote:
Turn it around - if you found literature for a belief system you found offensive, would you want to accessible for your children?

It depends on what age you're referring to. If it were a 6 year old, then no (but if he/she was 6, they wouldn't be exposed to anything I didn't want them to see anyway...right parents?). If they're 14 or 15, then you bet I want them to be exposed to other "belief systems".

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

6.4k · September 10, 2003

.

6.4k · September 10, 2003

Senaca touched on this earlier. Right or wrong, the guidelines for hiding a cache say (and have said for as long as I can remember):

quote:
Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, or social agendas will not be listed. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

So, if one can should not post a cache with religious materials in it to start, it reasons the finders should not be placing these in caches either.

"This is gc.com, love it or leave it "

38.2k · September 10, 2003

quote:
Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, or social agendas will not be listed. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

So, if one can should not post a cache with religious materials in it to start, it reasons the finders should not be placing these in caches either.

What? We can't put business cards in caches now? What about gift certificates, or coupons that will direct you to a certain establishment, or brand?

We all know that caches placed specifically for commercial purposes are not allowed (for good reason), but to regulate trade items, beyond the basics of dangerous and illegal items is ridiculous.

A prominent geocacher has left probably over a thousand key rings promoting their business in caches. I don't think anyone has ever taken issue with it. The same geocacher has also left religious tracts. Ya know what? Outside of some smug, indignant, psuedo-intellectuals, who the F really cares? If you don't want to read the stuff, don't.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on September 11, 2003 at 03:28 AM.]

2.7k · September 10, 2003

I guess its just McToys in caches from now on.

Nevermind! Might lead someone to McDonald's

Freedom is a two-way street.

GDAE, Dave

1.4k · September 10, 2003

Wow (again), this is great! I don't even get two threads into the forums and find controversy here too! This is rather disturbing to me as I didn't start any of it.

I don't think that religious or political propaganda (or any other such materials) are appropriate in a cache. But if I find a cache with this type of stuff in it (and I have) I simply choose to ignore it (either that, or I remove it without mentioning it to anyone -- you'll just never know ).

To think that all this could have been avoided if the person who wrote the log just removed the material and didn't say anything in their log.

What's even more disturbing is that I've agreed with Seneca twice in the same day.

*****

2.7k · September 10, 2003

Now That IS serious! What's worse, I agreed with him once today too. What IS this world coming to?

"Freedom is a two-way street."

GDAE, Dave

5.9k · September 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:
Senaca touched on this earlier. Right or wrong, the guidelines for hiding a cache say (and have said for as long as I can remember):

quote:
Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, or social agendas will not be listed. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

So, if one can should not post a cache with religious materials in it to start, it reasons the finders should not be placing these in caches either.

+ _"This is gc.com, love it or leave it "_

It is only solicitation if you choose to make it so, by accepting and reading the material. By ignoring it the material is just cache swag. We still don’t know what the so-called propaganda was. It is foolish to debate whether or not it is appropriate without knowing the details. Simply because some cacher calls something “religious propaganda” does not make it so, and does not make it unfit for a cache. McD’s toys could easily fall into the same category; there are a number of people who worship at the golden arches.

Any finder may trade any item at their whim, provided it is not illegal or expressly forbidden in the rules.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

September 10, 2003

I cache with 5 & 9 yr old daughters. On a resent find my 9 yr old traded her most valued bag item for a bible found in the cache. Wouldn't of been my choice, but oh well. She has not since traded her found bible during any other cache finds. In fact it's been removed from her trading bag of items and set aside. My point being: It meant something to my daughter and was valued. Thanks to who ever put it there for her to find. nuff said.

September 10, 2003

I recently did a Very religious themed cache, It so happend that it was my wifes religion But I knew that before getting to it. and as it turned out it has been one of my top 5 cache containers. The container is left as a suprise so I wont tell where or what the name is but I do have a pic if I can figure out how to post it.

Didn't work go here

http://www.hot4x4.ca/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=albuo29&id=aaf

here's how it was done.

and here

http://www.hot4x4.ca/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=albuo29&id=aag

Pat Patterson

Garmin 12XL

Some have graceland, some have mecca. We have the side of a gravel road in Oregon.... How did we get to be the better off?

September 10, 2003

For a subject that is rather touchy for some, this thread is pretty civil. I am impressed.

I am one of those Christian fellows as well. I am surrounded all day by images, words and lifestyles that are contrary to my values. I try my best to raise my children as I see fit and to protect them from things I find offensive (they are still quite young).

It amazes me how when during Christmas, I am asked by my supervisor to remove my "Jesus is the reason for the season" button. How can one little button be such a threat? At the same time guys are swearing in front of customers and there are pin-ups in the locker room. Yet that little button is offensive. That is what most Christian types deal with on a regular basis. And no, I did not remove the button.

In regards to Geocaching, I dont leave items of a religous or political nature in caches. I have been tempted a few times, but I think that a cache is not the best place for such items. That is just my opinion. I have no problem when I come across such things, but I will not leave them.

Only items I consider offensive in a cache are porn or stuff with vulgar language on it. If it can't be seen in the local newspaper, it don't need to be in a cache.

If I want share my views with someone I prefer to do so in person, not via cache loot.

Side note: No where in the Constitution does it mention seperation of church and state. But that is another debate for another board.

Long live the frog!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

September 11, 2003

This has been one of the more civil forums on this subject. I enjoy that because I enjoy my beliefs and I also enjoy geocaching. I personally believe the Bible and encourage others to believe it also. I certainly don’t want to offend anyone with my belief but I can’t deny it either. And my belief is not something I do on weekends but rather a part of my life every day of the week. I take that belief with me when I go geocaching and I have left pamphlets. They never promote my church but rather the scriptures. I don’t belong to an organized religion (I’m a Baptist) . And I am admonished by my scriptures to not be easily offended. It’s one of many things I struggle with but perhaps this is a small part of my ‘religion’ that could be accepted by others too? Seems to me it would make the world a little bit better place.

___________________________________

All weal drive, the only way to go!

2.6k · September 11, 2003

Those who leave e.g. christian pamphlets and tracts or think it's ok: Would you remove pamphlets of, say, Church of Satan, if you found them in a cache? Would you consider it ok if there was a cacher in your area leaving Satanic Bibles, The Nine Satanic Statements, The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth or such in caches? After all, they're just religious material, or?

(And no, I'm not religious.)

- I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. -

September 11, 2003

I would not remove them unless I was interested in reading them. I probably wouldn't be interested in reading them so I would leave them there. No problem.

___________________________________

All weal drive, the only way to go!

September 11, 2003

I must apologize up front for this post. I cannot express in text how ridiculous I think it is that someone is removing something from a cache because this person thinks it's "offensive" based on the fact that it's religious in nature.

I have my own beliefs, and do not go out of my way to force them on anyone. I expect the same out of them. I don't care what kind of "religious propaganda" it might have been (Christian, Satanism, Islam, etc...), the fact is, it said something about the person who left it in the cache. By removing the item(s), that person essentially forced his/her views on the future finders of the cache. Then, this person had the gall to log it.

It makes me wonder how people like this function in society? When someone places something in a cache, it's an offering to future finders of the cache. To some people, that's a very personal thing. The person who removed the item(s) has violated the person who left the material for who ever might have WANTED it. How dare him/her! He/She reminds me of a religious fanatic that I know who carries a widget (razor blade with a handle) in his car so he can remove the window stickers of Calvin whizzing on a (insert car logo here) just because he's "offended by it". Some of us out here think those stickers are funny!

Again, I apologize. I see no humor in someone being so fanatical that he/she feels he/she has to force his/her views on the rest of us... especially when it means messing with someone else's property. If it ain't yours, keep your dadgum hands off of it!

-=Jerry A. Goodson=- W5BFF aka hydrashok407

"Real peace is not just the absence of conflict, it's the presence of justice" - http://www.hydrashok.com

38.2k · September 11, 2003

I think the bottom line is that as long as its not a banned item (food, firearms, ammo, knives, explosives, etc...), I don't see why a bible, or religious tract isn't a legit trade item.

I guess Jeremy could add them to the list, but if this keeps up, we're gonna have a pretty long list of banned items in a few years.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

September 11, 2003

Can't help but wonder how many of those of you that are so damned offended by ANY religious item in a cache, eagerly wait to see if you will get that new Garmin V you've always wanted on Christmas Morning!

1.6k · September 11, 2003

Actually, I believe Jeremey as already spoken on the subject.

CR

1.6k · September 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by PCMedic:
Can't help but wonder how many of those of you that are so damned offended by ANY religious item in a cache, eagerly wait to see if you will get that new Garmin V you've always wanted on Christmas Morning!

I think many people who still do Christmas are into it for the gift giving and family time. I believe before Christmas was celebrated, Winter Solstice was celebrated in much the same way, but I'm not a history buff so I don't know exactly. I'm sure you could Google for it.

CR

September 11, 2003

Who will start regulating those "library" caches, where you take or leave books? Will someone complaining about finding "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe" create a ban on book caches because of the underlying religious tones of the works of CS Lewis?

--------------------

This space for rent! Ask about our easy layaway plan!

September 11, 2003

Warning!!

If you are offended by religious material do not aquire one of my signature items. I include a story with my sand dollar that you will find offensive.

Get over it!

Team Sand Dollar

September 11, 2003

I am offended that no one has mention the Elder God Cthulhu propaganda I leave on every sig card. Cthulhu is very, very angry now.....<p>Don't blame me that I am not born again, I got it right the first time

Make a sanity check.

1.2k · September 11, 2003

Okay folks, move along, nothing to see here. Return to your homes.

If this had been an actual issue you would have been advised where to tune for actual advice and recommended behavior.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled specious arguement.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

September 11, 2003

quote:
Those who leave e.g. christian pamphlets and tracts or think it's ok: Would you remove pamphlets of, say, Church of Satan, if you found them in a cache? Would you consider it ok if there was a cacher in your area leaving Satanic Bibles, The Nine Satanic Statements, The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth or such in caches? After all, they're just religious material, or?

No I would not remove them. I already have many of the items you described on my bookshelf. I have a nice collection of writings from other religions on my bookshelf and have read about 90% of them. It is kinda hard to talk to someone about their religion when you have no idea what they believe.

I would leave them unless I came across something I have not read before. Then I would trade for it and read up on the subject.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

September 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
I think the bottom line is that as long as its not a banned item (food, firearms, ammo, knives, explosives, etc...), I don't see why a bible, or religious tract isn't a legit trade item.

I guess Jeremy_ could _add them to the list, but if this keeps up, we're gonna have a pretty long list of banned items in a few years.

_"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm_

Yup! Just what he said!

Yup. That's MY goat!

1.4k · September 11, 2003

I don't understand why, if knowing that there are so many who object to religious materials being left in caches that some *still* insist that it's OK to do so.

I doubt that it's doing your causes any good. So why do it?

*****

September 11, 2003

I don't think they are appropriate from a different standpoint. I value my beliefs and opinions more than Mc toys and wouldn't leave a bible or anything else that would have to do with religion in an ammo can. Or any possible leaky, wet container where someone who could care less what I think is just going to trash what I believe in. Keep the bible on the bed side table, the porn in the closet and the guns, ammo and fireworks away from the kids. These don't belong in a cache any more than you would put a turd in a punch bowl, same premise, lots will see it, a few will talk about it and someone will eventually get offended enough to remove it. either way it is out and probably in the trash.

It's not a sport unless there is something dead in the back of the truck when you get home.

9.4k · September 11, 2003

Finding a McToy in a cache does not make me want to go to McDonald's.

Finding any religious item in a cache does not make me want to find out more about that religion.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

September 11, 2003

I find Religious Phamplets to be just like junk mail. Anyone who finds one either doesn't need it, or is annoyed by it. I don't like it in my mailbox, and I don't like it in my caches. Things go better if people just keep their political and religious views to themselves.

leave it there if you don't care, but if you decide to pull it, just do it and keep quiet about it your log and we won't have to read about it on the message boards.

September 11, 2003

Although I would agree that caches are not the place for religious promotions, I would not remove it from a cache. But there is a larger issue here that I have also found in other places, and it is very interesting. There are a lot of folks out there with a phobia about being exposed to any kind of religious belief or moral position coming from a religious source. Yet many of the same folks have no reservations about *forcing* their personal views (which are like religious beliefs) on the rest of the world. For example, do you know of anyone who got into serious trouble or lost their job because they said something wrong about God, or Christ? On the other hand, how many do you know about that got into serious trouble by saying something that was "politically incorrect", for lack of a better term? A teacher can get into hot water for saying anything that even smells a bit like religion, but support of leftist political positions is widely tolerated. I personally feel much more threatened by liberal political fanatics than by conservative religious fanatics. But I think it would be great to put them all in one place and let them annoy each other, and leave the rest of us alone.

Now back to geocaching,

CharlieP

September 11, 2003

I have seen some but very little religon items placed, I personally am not a church goer but I don't take ofense to these things when I find them in a cache, I may actually take something if it has a web address on it, to see what it is the cacher that placed it wants me to check out...Who knows I may learn something new, but majority of the time I ignor these items.....

NOSEEUMS--High Protein Low Calorie unpacked trail snacks!!!!

See You In the Woods!!!

Natureboy1376

September 11, 2003

quote:
I don't understand why, if knowing that there are so many who object to religious materials being left in caches that some *still* insist that it's OK to do so.

I'm of the "if you don't like it, just ignore it crowd. I don't feel offended if I find some religious material and I don't feel threatened.

The above comment overlooks one important fact though, IMHO, these forums do not represent 'most' geocachers - I'd be surprised if they represented so much as 1%.

Does anyone know?

"The hardest thing to find is something that's not there!"

1.4k · September 11, 2003

quote:
WildcatRegi wrote:
The above comment overlooks one important fact though, IMHO, these forums do not represent 'most' geocachers - I'd be surprised if they represented so much as 1%.

That comment did not overlook what you point out. I don't see the word *most* in it anywhere.

Do you have a point?

*****

September 11, 2003

"Took four or five hundred chic tracts, left horny 'lil devil keyring & bingo card."

They say this universe is bound to blow,

I say we crank up the Calypso Control!

~Jimmy Buffett

~Someday I Will~

Ednited for spilling

September 11, 2003

This has been a very interesting discussion and, like others, I'm surprised that it has remained as civil as it has. Personally, I disagree with anyone who attempts to impose their beliefs, religious or otherwise, on others. I have my own opinions about organized religion and polities which I won't share here. I would never remove anything from someone else's cache without leaving a suitable trade item nor would I remove ANYTHING from a cache simply because I wanted to "protect" future finders. If it is not my cache then my opinion as to what constitutes "acceptable" cache contents is irrelevant.

However, prior to reading this thread, if I had encountered religious or political literature in a cache that I owned I would probably have quietly removed it. Surprisingly, given that I can be a stubborn and opinionated SOB, after reading the opinions and comments in this thread my thoughts on this matter have been altered. People who leave these sorts of items in a cache obviously have strong feelings about their beliefs and probably consider their trade items to be as appropriate as any other trade item. While it may smack of evangelism, its a pretty passive form of evangelism that is very simple for the uninterested to ignore. While common sense may not be very common, I believe that the average cacher, by the vary nature of the game, and it is a game, is probably of slightly higher intelligence than the average bear and is probably quite capable of ignoring that which they may find morally offensive. I believe another poster stated something to the effect of, "Being offended is totally under the control of the offendee". I couldn't agree more.

Going forward I will likely respect these sorts of trade items in the spirit in which they were left and leave them in any cache which I own. As for those who would leave religious or political items in a cache, while I may not agree with their beliefs or motives, I believe that everyone has to have a hobby. Perhaps the next person to visit the cache shares their hobby. Whose to say?

__________

Gorak

September 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ChurchCampDave:

No need to turn it around. Christians are CONSTANTLY bombarded by advertisements and images that many consider offensive, (Note I said MANY, not ALL). We are constantly accused of "trying to force our views on others". The fact of a Christian opening hisher mouth at all is condemned by the most vocal of society. None of these self-proclaimed gaurdians of society complains when pentagrams and occultic literature are found in public places. Nor do they complain when main-stream advertisers use nudity to sell their products- and when a Christian does, heshe is automatically branded a "fanatic".

I hear this argument regularly, and I always wonder where you folks live that such an environment exists. Even in places generally considered 'open-minded' or 'liberal' or known by some other term suggesting tolerance for non-Christian views, I've not seen the wide-spread persecution many Christians allude to.

Certainly, advertisers use techniques that should be offensive to the reverent Christian, but if you ask the average member of the intended target audience, they will call themselves Christian. Perhaps the largest religious bloc in the United States, by far, should get organized and let advertisers know how they feel by voting with their dollars.

In the meanwhile, I'll be passing sign after sign telling me this is 'God's nation', listening to political leaders judging the average member of other belief systems by the most fanatical members, watching legal battles over the display of Christian ethics in places where no one would dream of putting up the beliefs of any other religion, reading the words of individuals who consider themselves Christian while calling for hateful actions that are in direct violation of Christ's teachings, learning that our children are being taught as fact positions that are in actuality questions of faith...

If this country is hostile to Christians, you'll have to work long and hard to prove it by me.

Now, I have no concern about religious items (of any faith) in caches. I myself have placed a cross from Canterbury in a cache. But there's trade items, and there's advertising. Advertising for a church is just as possible as advertising for a secular business. Neither is particularly attractive.

quote:

The person who removed the item from the cache is a religiophobic fanatic. So there. "I turned it around".

We still don't know what the 'propaganda' consisted of. Until we do, it's rather too soon to be calling someone names.

Ron/yumitori

---

Remember what the dormouse said...

September 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Breaktrack:
Okay folks, move along, nothing to see here. Return to your homes.

Nothing to see? NOTHING TO SEE!!?? I'll tell you what *I* see! I see that you were a tanker, and that offends me. Not only should your items be removed, your logs deleted, but something be done about your awful nickname and avatar.

If I see anything that says "Breaktrack" in a cache, I'll certainly remove it for fear of offending FUTURE infantry soldiers such a s myself finding it. It's not right that you leave your Armor propoganda scattered all over caches and the forums. You should be ashamed of yourself as a cacher AND a poster!

How can you be such a fanatic about something that offends others SO much, Sir?

-=Jerry A. Goodson=- W5BFF aka hydrashok407 KoolAid Drinker

"Real peace is not just the absence of conflict, it's the presence of justice" - http://www.hydrashok.com

September 11, 2003

quote:
1. Does Seperation of Church and State extend to Geocaching?

I actually prefer the Russian Constitution's wording to our own:

Article 28 Everyone shall be guaranteed the right to freedom of conscience, to

freedom of religious worship, including the right to profess, individually or jointly with others, any religion, or to profess no religion, to freely choose, possess and disseminate

religious or other beliefs, and to act in conformity with them.

Put that fweakin' sandwich down!

September 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ChurchCampDave:

None of these self-proclaimed gaurdians of society complains when pentagrams and occultic literature are found in public places.

Are there a lot of these where you live? If so, can I have the co-ords, it sounds like a cool place to cache. Cthulhu be with you.

Make a sanity check.

2.6k · September 11, 2003

I feel your pain hydrashok407, and I couldn't agree more. But there's nothing we can do, 'cause you see, he's Breaktrack. He's da Man!

- I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. -

September 11, 2003

I do not believe in God. Why do so many people think it is their job to make me believe? The two things people fight about most is religion and politics. I would remove anything concerning either of them that I found in a cache.

Bender

Searching, for the lost Xanadu

6.5k · September 11, 2003

quote:
TNLN, except for some religious propaganda I removed

Well I guess in thier minds this constitutes Trade Fairly.

quote:
I've long been of the opinion, it it isn't any of your business, then leave it alone. Nonetheless, some believe it is their responsibility to "protect" others since they are so F'ing superior.

Once again I agree with Criminal.

quote:
It is becoming nearly impossible to do anything in this day and age without offending someone.

Yes, Breaktrack, that is why I am in favor of Nuking the Gay Whales!

quote:
What? We can't put business cards in caches now? What about gift certificates, or coupons that will direct you to a certain establishment, or brand?

We all know that caches placed specifically for commercial purposes are not allowed (for good reason), but to regulate trade items, beyond the basics of dangerous and illegal items is ridiculous.

I guess Jeremy could add them to the list, but if this keeps up, we're gonna have a pretty long list of banned items in a few years.

Yea, if that happens then all we'll have left are locationless and virtual caches!

These changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes;

Nothing remains quite the same.

Through all of the islands and all of the highlands,

If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane

September 11, 2003

There's a joke about finding a cache under a burning bush brewing in here somewhere.

Ia Ia Cthulhu Fatgn!

(o0)

/||

Team Kender - "The Sun is coming up!" "No, the horizon is going down."

September 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Kender:
There's a joke about finding a cache under a burning bush brewing in here somewhere.

The topic is religion, not drunken whores.

1.5k · September 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Romad_Pilot:

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:
Actually the paper cut that one could get from those tracts would hurt more than the little knives left in caches....lol

Brian

And it hurts like you know what of you get lemon juice in the cut!

So you're going to start placing religious tracts in caches laced with lemon juice?

Brian

Team A.I.

September 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bender:
I do not believe in God. Why do so many people think it is their job to make me believe? The two things people fight about most is religion and politics. I would remove anything concerning either of them that I found in a cache.

Why do you feel you have to police caches that you visit? You're forcing your non-belief in God by removing religious items left in caches. There are many agendas, whether it's political, religious, or social. I would like to find a "Vote for Mondale" button in a cache. While it's "political", it's also a collectors item. Would you remove that, too?

Evangelism might not be the only motivation to leaving religious items in caches. I'm not a Buddhist, but I wouldn't be opposed to finding a Buddha ornament in a cache... to some people, it's a good luck charm. I also wouldn't remove mystical crystals, or dragon figurines, or pentagrams. I recall finding a book of horoscopes in a recent cache. None of these things are "my thing", but I certainly have no right or responsibility to shelter others who may want these things.

I have my beliefs (religious, political, and social). I do not get offended when I stumble across others' beliefs or opinions. Those who do need to get a life. By taking action against the fanatics you oppose merely shows your fanatacism for simply a different cause.

By leaving the religious items in the cache, the person merely OFFERED it to another finder. By removing the items, you're denying future finders of picking up something they might enjoy. How dare you. If you don't want the religious items, simply pick something else.

I found a cache just last night with baseball cards in it. I don't like baseball. Should I have removed the baseball cards? Hmm.. maybe the next cache finder might enjoy baseball cards. Oh no! I don't like baseball, so NOBODY should have access to these cards!

I don't force my views on other cachers, and I expect the same from them. To offer is not force, but to deny is. If you don't like it, just leave it be.

-=Jerry A. Goodson=- W5BFF aka hydrashok407 KoolAid Drinker

"Real peace is not just the absence of conflict, it's the presence of justice" - http://www.hydrashok.com

1.4k · September 11, 2003

quote:
hydrashok407 wrote:
Should I have removed the baseball cards?

Baseball is hardly the same thing.

The rest of your post does make some sense, however.

*****

1.5k · September 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jomarac5:

quote:
hydrashok407 wrote:
Should I have removed the baseball cards?

Baseball is hardly the same thing.

The rest of your post does make some sense, however.

*****

Well, you could make the comparison that since baseball cards are made by for-profit companies, and that their logo is emblazoned somewhere on the card that it too could be a commercial item. On that note, just about any McToy has the raised lettering 'Made in <pick SE Asian country> on the bottom. This could be indicative of someone promoting the economy of said country. Going even further downhill, a tupperware container is promoting the company, just as a Rubbermaid container promotes...Rubbermaid. What about the ammo cans? Aren't we promoting the manufacturer of those as well? And god forbid we use Altoids/Myntz/Listerine LSD pack containers for micro caches. We'd be promoting those companies as well.

We might as well create a Geocaching Congress so we can debate endlessly while accomplishing little.

Brian

Team A.I.

Censors on the Job

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