Where do you draw the line....?

May 22, 2009

When searching for a cache ?

My wife and I were out caching last night and we came to one cache site that had us stunned . The amount of garbage around was sickening and we spent maybe 2 minutes half heartedly looking for the cache before we became to disgusted and left . Too say this area needs a CITO is an understatement because it would take truckloads to remove all the garbage .

What puzzles me is why would someone hide a cache amongst all the garbage ? Is there no respect for the cachers that will come to this area to search ?

I wanted to make a note in the log commenting about it but decided to let it slide as no other logs commented on it . And it's not all new because the site reeks like a garbage dump....and this is an inner city cache in a small wooded area .

I just recently hid my first cache the other day ( waiting on publication ) and I hid it where others would enjoy the surrounding environment and not have to sift through garbage during their search . Personally , I'd rather find one cache in a nice area I didn't know existed than find 10 in areas where it's obvious the CO only hid it there to increase their hide numbers .

Is a little respect for fellow cachers to much to show ?

Opinions ?

Edited May 22, 2009 by Yankez33

2k · May 22, 2009

There are many caches that I walk away from. Quite a few that we don't even get out of the car for. You're up against human nature and a desire to hide a cache just because one can. Just forget it and move on.

4k · May 22, 2009

Some people just don't care and want the hide. (Hence LPC's.)

Maybe it was there for CITO?

I think you will find that most people stop when they cease having fun. I have been to one like that and I showed up and left. I agree with your ideology for hides.

To each his own.

May 22, 2009

If I arrive at a cache and get close to GZ and find it's a dump, or makes me uncomfortable I'll just leave. There may be reasons to spend time sifting through trash and hanging out in unpleasant place but getting another tick on the cache counter isn't one of them.

RE your log: I would personally have noted the condition of the cache site in my DNF log. If I found that a hider was known for that type of hide I'd likely stop searching for theirs.

10.1k · May 22, 2009

I draw the line when I stop having fun (to quote several hundred people on the fora.)

Lotsa caches out there. I don't need to find them all.

Why do cachers put out these caches? I have no idea! Some people have a strange sense of humor...

I DNFed a local cache, near the dumpster behind a restaurant with: "Why did you want to bring me here?"

Go out and have fun! That's what this game is all about!

6.7k · May 22, 2009

When it's not fun, move on! :anibad:

May 22, 2009

near the dumpster behind a restaurant with: "Why did you want to bring me here?"

Now that my friend is a very good question. . .

I had one recently that was close to a dumpster too. I just about left but was glad I didn't. It was a modified PB jar glued under a PVC fence post cap. Took me a while to get head in the game. . . but when I found it I was impressed with the creativity of the hide.

There was however a whole fence row - and while this one was under a tree to help with stealth there were other trees not so close to the dumpster.

May 22, 2009

To add a new and totally unique opinion to the thread, I draw the line when I stop having fun.

Some people probably seriously think to themselves, "This'll be really cool. Let's hide the cache right in the middle of this big stinking pile of garbage. Ha Ha!"

To each his own, of course. Some folks might enjoy digging through the town dump. But I would have zero interest in such a cache.

May 22, 2009

(Hence LPC's.)

Not sure what that stands for . Can someone clue me in please :anibad:

19k · May 22, 2009

(Hence LPC's.)

Not sure what that stands for . Can someone clue me in please

LPC = Lamp Post Cache = Skirt Lifter. If you don't get that yet, you will, soon enough.

May 22, 2009

(Hence LPC's.)

Not sure what that stands for . Can someone clue me in please

LPC = Lamp Post Cache = Skirt Lifter. If you don't get that yet, you will, soon enough.

Ok . I know exactly what you mean . Thanks muchly

4.1k · May 22, 2009

I have seen garbage pile caches and other caches that are placed in areas where I have no desire to go. Or for that matter, puzzle caches that I have no desire to solve. I suppose it depends on how close they are to my house, but at some point I realized that there was always going to be an opportunity to find a cache and learned to control my obsession if it was not fun. Or at least I try.

18.9k · May 22, 2009

I've walked away from several. Ran from a few.

Sometimes the "clever" camo is the surrounding garbage. Ick!! No thanks - I'll move on to another.

3.8k · May 22, 2009

My DNF log would have read

"Got out of the car and decided that I wasn't having fun anymore so I decided to move on."

May 22, 2009

I have one that is on the edge of a great historic site in IL/MO. Kaskaskia Island. IL had a great river re-routing event that left a city in IL West of the River. Because IL historic sites don't get permission, I had to hide it at a fishing area just accross the creek on the MO side, as MO is more lenient.

My real Issue is.......

--but-- The past few months irresponsible cache hiders have violated permission rules in my area, by hiding them anyway in Historic Sites and Nature preserves. I worked hard to show other state pak officials that Geocaching can be benefitial. Those ones without permission will end up getting deleted, but mine will last as I pulled the right strings. So as those fall away, mine will hopefully still have a strong early placement date.

Another one that died was TO A SUNKEN CITY. This was a mystery cache that overlooked the Island and had a History. The name comes from the Title of a Middle English style poem on a plaque, that cacher's would have to read to solve a simple puzzle. Then the 2nd stop is a conservation area with a lake.

Well we all heard about the IL Governor Thing. Just 2 months before all that blew over, He shut down all the state historic sites and locked the gate to the overlook, so mine was no longer do-able. I disabled mine, then when they re-opened it, I went to ty to replace it, and now I cant cause the place us too cache saturated.

That place has become Cache Saturated in the recent months. and now I cant place it.

May 22, 2009

Mine are always in Unique areas.

I think my most controversial one is Washboard/Ruffles GCNBA8 - It is Pyramid State Park. It used to be a strip mine, and they cleaned up and let nature go back to it's course. What is so unique about it is, the mounds of dirt that was left behind. It is like walking onto a giant Ruffles Potato Chip or a washboard.

What makes it so decisive weather to go in or not. The cache lies over 10 hills 20 feet tall, so it is similar to walking up 200 feet and down 200 feet just one way then do the same returning. When you are done you have made 400 feet in elevation changes. But there is no elevation change

In summer time it is thorns, weeds, ticks, snakes, and spider webs. I have given it 4and half for terrain cause of the reviews I have gotten. Some love it, as they can see the beauty that Nature is replenishing itself, others see it as a big scar in the environment.

Go ahead and read the logs. GCNBA8

All of my others as well is in unique areas, in fact I am having a hard time deciding to put one in my own small town cause there is nothing unique I can do with it.

Some of my others feature...

(Name Pending*) - Sits on a small bluff/rock outcropping, where you can see cars driving by but they cant see you. Hidden in a black PVC pipe and a roll of film as a log. *First Finder gets the honor to name and describe it.

GC1R5MA - Real Strange Monster Advisory: Another hidden away 2 mile trail to Kinkaid lake. It is in a forest environment with the absence of weeds and thick overgrowth, which is a rare thing in IL. The theme is a Liar's Cache to give the feeling there is a bigfoot in the area.

One is in a fishing area, on the edge of a major geogaphical feature (chunk of IL West of the MSippi River). Cause it is moer of historical value and not much to look at, that was my first 'Roll of Film' as a Logsheet, to make it somewhat memorable.

I am still working on a unique idea for my hometown cause I dont want just another boring city park cache. but that is my standpoint.

20.7k · May 22, 2009

My wife and I were out caching last night and we came to one cache site that had us stunned . The amount of garbage around was sickening and we spent maybe 2 minutes half heartedly looking for the cache before we became to disgusted and left . Too say this area needs a CITO is an understatement because it would take truckloads to remove all the garbage . ...

It always strikes me as odd when cachers look for a cache in a trashy location, comment that the spot needs to be CITOd, but don't actually remove any of the trash.

May 22, 2009

I wanted to make a note in the log commenting about it but decided to let it slide as no other logs commented on it . And it's not all new because the site reeks like a garbage dump....and this is an inner city cache in a small wooded area .

I usually give the benefit of the doubt to the hider (even when it seems obvious the site was a trash heap before they placed the hide.) and put something like "Sadly, folks have started using the area around GZ to dump their trash."

4k · May 22, 2009

It always strikes me as odd when cachers look for a cache in a trashy location, comment that the spot needs to be CITOd, but don't actually remove any of the trash.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

We have a winner. I don't get it either. Take something! Anything. Just one thing is better than nothing. :laughing:

7.2k · May 22, 2009

Some places need a CITO event as nothing less would be worth the effort.

May 22, 2009

Here's a log I left for a similar cache:

Met my mom out at the outlet mall, and afterwards, we swung over to look for this one. Didn't look for too long, as there was an idling semi truck right there, and it's a pretty gross area, not planning on coming back to look for this one again. I don't like dodging garbage and poop, especially when it's not from a dog (unless dogs have learned to wipe with paper towels afterwards).

I hope my log kept other people from having he same unpleasant experience me and my mom had.

May 22, 2009

I have a cache hidden in a neat little unknown wooded area here in town. A cacher posted a dnf recently complaining about all of the garbage and how horrible all Spokane caches must be if I were to place a hide in such an awful spot. The funny thing is that the entire area is trash-free. I'm guessing she entered the wrong coordinates. I wonder where she really was? :laughing:

24.7k · May 22, 2009

...Is a little respect for fellow cachers to much to show ?...

Did you CITO and show a little respect for your fellow cachers yourself making their vist just a tad less ugly than yours? If so, great. If not what's the complaint again?

The answer you really want though is this. The moment it isn't fun, move on. There are thousands of caches. Not all of them will tickle your fancy?

1.2k · May 22, 2009

...Is a little respect for fellow cachers to much to show ?...

Did you CITO and show a little respect for your fellow cachers yourself making their vist just a tad less ugly than yours? If so, great. If not what's the complaint again?

The answer you really want though is this. The moment it isn't fun, move on. There are thousands of caches. Not all of them will tickle your fancy?

No that is not the answer he is looking for and you know it. Just say it. Whoever hides caches in piles of garbage are plain old idiots. Now that is what he wanted to hear. So close the thread you have spoken :laughing:

CITO ? ya right............

1.4k · May 23, 2009

I saw a cache where someone posted a RTF note for this very reason I had to email the poster and ask what RTF meant (Refused to find).

Scubasonic

3.4k · May 23, 2009

After some thought, I decided to throw in my 2 cents worth.

First, unless the cache is hid in an actual landfill (authorized dump) the rants are being directed to the wrong party. The ones to be faulted are those who are throwing the trash in the area.

Next, it sounds like the area could be a nice spot if it was just cleaned up. A prominent mention of the need for CITO on the cache page might get cachers to come prepared with trash bags, and/or the CO could leave a supply of bags in the cache.

Recently while on vacation I found a cache where the CO had asked for finders to help CITO the area, and it must have helped because when I was there it wasn't very trashy at all.

Finally, I agree that it sounds like a good place to hold a CITO event.

9.3k · May 24, 2009

The ones to be faulted are those who are throwing the trash in the area.

In this instance, (caches hidden at trash dump sites), fault comes in two distinct flavors. While I certainly agree that much of the blame needs to be heaped upon the fidiots who dumped the trash, I think I could spare some for the cache hider. The Groundspeak motto is, "The Language of Location". While it's technically true that a heap of decaying detritus along a roadway is a 'location', I can't help but believe that areas like this are not what they had in mind. There were (at least) two separate choices made here. One was when the fidiot(s) opted to dispose of their trash by tossing it in the bushes. The other was when BillyBobNosePicker opted to hide a cache at such a disgusting location. Nether choice was what I would call a positive one.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Clan Riffster

May 24, 2009

fidiots

And here I thought I had invented that word. I was getting ready to spring it on the world

On topic, I've seen cache sites which seem to be trashy both before and after the cache was hidden (seperate sites, some before & some after). I don't see hiding a cache in a trashy area in an attempt to get it cleaned up as a positive thing. If it's gonna be a really nice spot after the trash is gone and will potentially stay untrashed, maybe a CITO event is in order. Don't expect the local roadside dump to be cleaned up one cacher at a time, "they" will throw it down faster than we can pick it up.

May 24, 2009

Here's a log I left for a similar cache:

Met my mom out at the outlet mall, and afterwards, we swung over to look for this one. Didn't look for too long, as there was an idling semi truck right there, and it's a pretty gross area, not planning on coming back to look for this one again. I don't like dodging garbage and poop, especially when it's not from a dog (unless dogs have learned to wipe with paper towels afterwards).

I hope my log kept other people from having he same unpleasant experience me and my mom had.

I'm a new geocacher, but already I've run into this problem because I live in Chicago. I'm not sure how to handle it with the logs...there have been 2 caches so far that I simply walked away from after looking for only a few minutes because the place was so disgusting I worried that I'd catch a disease or get stuck by a needle or find a dead body (seriously...it was THAT bad!). I'd like to mention in the logs that the place is filthy so that others will know, but I don't wish to offend the hider, either. Then again, quite frankly, I was offended that someone would place a cache there so that others would be drawn to the area. There was nothing pleasant about this cache point even though its on the Chicago River. I know the river to be polluted since I've lived here my whole life, but I thought there must be some nice places since someone took the time to hide a cache there (and in a few other areas along the river) and write about the place as though it were pleasant. I won't go to any more cache sites that are on the river... And trust me, no CITO will help this cache site. It needs a bulldozer and hazardous materials suits to safely get rid of the amount and type of trash there.

Edited May 24, 2009 by ArizonaAndKids

21.9k · May 24, 2009

The Groundspeak motto is, "The Language of Location". While it's technically true that a heap of decaying detritus along a roadway is a 'location', I can't help but believe that areas like this are not what they had in mind.

Every language has cuss words.

May 24, 2009

Here's a log I left for a similar cache:

Met my mom out at the outlet mall, and afterwards, we swung over to look for this one. Didn't look for too long, as there was an idling semi truck right there, and it's a pretty gross area, not planning on coming back to look for this one again. I don't like dodging garbage and poop, especially when it's not from a dog (unless dogs have learned to wipe with paper towels afterwards).

I hope my log kept other people from having he same unpleasant experience me and my mom had.

Sounds like a couple of the Wally World caches I've driven past (Refuse to stop). Although there have been a few that have been OK.

May 25, 2009

We've walked away from a few. One was near a municipal sewage treatment pond. Peeeuw!

Some were amid luxurious poison ivy. (Admittedly, probably not the owners fault - the stuff grows like, like, like, a weed!)

When searching for a cache ?

My wife and I were out caching last night and we came to one cache site that had us stunned . The amount of garbage around was sickening and we spent maybe 2 minutes half heartedly looking for the cache before we became to disgusted and left . Too say this area needs a CITO is an understatement because it would take truckloads to remove all the garbage .

What puzzles me is why would someone hide a cache amongst all the garbage ? Is there no respect for the cachers that will come to this area to search ?

I wanted to make a note in the log commenting about it but decided to let it slide as no other logs commented on it . And it's not all new because the site reeks like a garbage dump....and this is an inner city cache in a small wooded area .

I just recently hid my first cache the other day ( waiting on publication ) and I hid it where others would enjoy the surrounding environment and not have to sift through garbage during their search . Personally , I'd rather find one cache in a nice area I didn't know existed than find 10 in areas where it's obvious the CO only hid it there to increase their hide numbers .

Is a little respect for fellow cachers to much to show ?

Opinions ?

May 26, 2009

Did you CITO and show a little respect for your fellow cachers yourself making their vist just a tad less ugly than yours? If so, great. If not what's the complaint again?

Answer me this ....if you went to a cache and saw 3 hypo needles in the 2 minutes you were there , had no gloves with you ( not that that would matter in this case ) would you stick around to do a little CITO ?

Caching is a family recreation and knowing that some family could bring their kids to this location just makes me shake my head . Would you bring yours ??

And I agree the problem is not just the CO whom chose to hide in this area....it's the surrounding neighbours who choose to live next to a "garbage dump" by throwing the trash there .

With that said , I'm now going to log this particular cache as a DNF and mention the hypos I saw there . The CO might not like it but then maybe next time they will choose a more suitable location rather than just hiding one more LPC .

May 26, 2009

I use two concepts NHF and WOB

NHF (Not having fun)

As soon as I am no longer enjoying the hunt I leave.

WOB (Walk on by)

This is the extreme case where upon arrival at GZ the location is so poor that I don't even bother to start looking.

9.3k · May 26, 2009

if you went to a cache and saw 3 hypo needles in the 2 minutes you were there , had no gloves with you would you stick around to do a little CITO ?

Absolutely. I would think that CITOing hypodermic needles would be even more necessary than CITOing beer bottles.

20.7k · May 26, 2009

if you went to a cache and saw 3 hypo needles in the 2 minutes you were there , had no gloves with you would you stick around to do a little CITO ?

Absolutely. I would think that CITOing hypodermic needles would be even more necessary than CITOing beer bottles.

agreed.

May 26, 2009

if you went to a cache and saw 3 hypo needles in the 2 minutes you were there , had no gloves with you would you stick around to do a little CITO ?

Absolutely. I would think that CITOing hypodermic needles would be even more necessary than CITOing beer bottles.

Well enjoy the possibility of Hepatitis or AIDS then....

I've come across trash strewn caches before that I refuse to dig through. I CITO when I'm hiking in the wood but I would certainly draw the line at USED NEEDLES. Things like that need to be left to Health Officials who could be alerted of their presence. I've never left a negative log about it though because if a cache has been around for a while it's entirely possible the site wasn't like that when the cache was placed. I might consider a gently worded note to the CO though.

24.7k · May 26, 2009

Did you CITO and show a little respect for your fellow cachers yourself making their vist just a tad less ugly than yours? If so, great. If not what's the complaint again?

Answer me this ....if you went to a cache and saw 3 hypo needles in the 2 minutes you were there , had no gloves with you ( not that that would matter in this case ) would you stick around to do a little CITO ? ...

Been There Done That. After all Plan B is for someone else to step on it who didn't see it.

20.7k · May 26, 2009

if you went to a cache and saw 3 hypo needles in the 2 minutes you were there , had no gloves with you would you stick around to do a little CITO ?
Absolutely. I would think that CITOing hypodermic needles would be even more necessary than CITOing beer bottles.
Well enjoy the possibility of Hepatitis or AIDS then....

I think that you are overreacting. A used needle can be picked up and disposed of safely without gloves.

9.3k · May 26, 2009

Well enjoy the possibility of Hepatitis or AIDS then....

Why would you want me to enjoy the fact that I might catch a potentially deadly disease?

Anyone with an IQ greater than 4 can safely dispose of a needle.

If that group doesn't include you, then by all means, leave it on the ground for some kid to trip over, while sending your "note" to the CO.

May 26, 2009

if you went to a cache and saw 3 hypo needles in the 2 minutes you were there , had no gloves with you would you stick around to do a little CITO ?
Absolutely. I would think that CITOing hypodermic needles would be even more necessary than CITOing beer bottles.
Well enjoy the possibility of Hepatitis or AIDS then....
I think that you are overreacting. A used needle can be picked up and disposed of safely without gloves.

Even the most careful people can be accidentally pricked and all it would take is getting pricked once. Better safe than sorry.

May 26, 2009

I draw the line at "homeless person sleeping in the seach area". Homeless camp, fine. I'll usually cito the trash and call it a show. Place I could possibly find a dead body? Fine. There have been a few found in my city this month, all in places near caches. You find one, you make the appropriate calls and continue on your way. Needles aren't such a problem here (our folk are more into pills), but so long as I could transport them safely, cito those. Putting them in a pop can or a bottle would probably be close enough.

I'd leave a note in my log, of course. I know that this is a family actvity, and I know if I had kids, I wouldn't want to drag them into a homeless camp or a needle disposal site. It's a courtesy thing; people deserve to know what to expect.

May 27, 2009

I did a multi cache a few weeks ago that started in a nice piece of woods near the Henry Ford Estate in Dearborn. The next stop, I couldn't believe it, was in a really bad part of town on the side of a busy road, looking for a micro amongst the trash on the side of the road. Needless to say, I was pissed!!! I had emailed the owner the night before to make sure that the recent rains would not be a problem as it often is here in southeastern Michigan and he gave me his phone number in case I had any problem. Well, I let him know that spending two minutes on the side of a busy road in a BAD part of town with yikky muggles walking all over the place was not my idea of enjoyable geocaching. What a jerk!

May 27, 2009

There should be somebody in your town that you can report the mess too...In Indiana, It is neighborhood code enforcement. Somebody owns the land. If it isn't the city or county, they will find the owner, make them clean it up or simply fine them. If there is a health concern such as a needles...it will get cleaned up by the city and charged to the owner if they don't clean it in a reasonable time.

I would suggest finding out if there is someone to contact if this is that big of a health concern. Also...contact the cache owner...maybe the mess came long after they placed the cache.

One of our great area cachers left a cache behind a building and the garbage can some 200 feet away opened and blew into the wooded area the cache was hid. I don't think our cacher meant for the mess...so maybe give the cacher the benefit of the doubt and send a personal message letting them know.

just a thought

May 27, 2009

Here's a post from my blog that had the Ickiest FTF I ever found.

http://headhardhat-geocache.blogspot.com/2...t-ftf-ever.html

Some genius placed a geocache at a hunting station where they gut deer.

Read On if interested.

-HHH :laughing:

9.3k · May 27, 2009

Even the most careful people can be accidentally pricked and all it would take is getting pricked once. Better safe than sorry.

So your solution is to leave what you consider to be a serious hazard, laying around for the next cacher, possibly one with kids, to stumble upon?

2k · May 27, 2009

Here's a post from my blog that had the Ickiest FTF I ever found.

http://headhardhat-geocache.blogspot.com/2...t-ftf-ever.html

Some genius placed a geocache at a hunting station where they gut deer.

Read On if interested.

-HHH

A description of the hazards would have graced my DNF. Not sure the CO wouldn't delete it but I'd do my best to warn others.

May 27, 2009

Wow...

I'm new to this "game", and this thread has surprised me...sort of.

My daughter recently found out about Geo Caching, and we got pretty excited. We looked up some caches near us, and found 3/5 of our first selection. We also read many of the posts thanking the CO for their site selection, and how charming the surroundings were. Cool game! How better to attract a stranger to a spot you particularly enjoy, and share the experience?

Now I'm reading about sociophobes (a word I just invented..feel free to use it) placing caches in spots that have no socially redeeming qualities at all. That not only speaks ill of the mentality of the CO, but degrades the "sport" as an enjoyable excuse to get outdoors and experience nature.

Wow, again...I guess there is no activity which doesn't attract the dregs. Sad. :laughing:

May 27, 2009

Did you CITO and show a little respect for your fellow cachers yourself making their vist just a tad less ugly than yours? If so, great. If not what's the complaint again?

Answer me this ....if you went to a cache and saw 3 hypo needles in the 2 minutes you were there , had no gloves with you ( not that that would matter in this case ) would you stick around to do a little CITO ?

Caching is a family recreation and knowing that some family could bring their kids to this location just makes me shake my head . Would you bring yours ??

And I agree the problem is not just the CO whom chose to hide in this area....it's the surrounding neighbours who choose to live next to a "garbage dump" by throwing the trash there .

With that said , I'm now going to log this particular cache as a DNF and mention the hypos I saw there . The CO might not like it but then maybe next time they will choose a more suitable location rather than just hiding one more LPC .

We have definitely walked away from a few and one my husband reported to the cache owner. It was a puzzle cache and the final coordinates brought you into a thicket of trees. Well, it looked like some homeless people had taken up residence there and they or someone else had stolen a bunch of medical equipment and placed it there. Husband even called the police (cuz of the stolen stuff). The cache owner quickly diabled it, or whatever, because he simply hadn't been told before what a mess it was.

8.4k · May 27, 2009

Wow...

I'm new to this "game", and this thread has surprised me...sort of.

>snip for brevity<

Now I'm reading about sociophobes (a word I just invented..feel free to use it) placing caches in spots that have no socially redeeming qualities at all. That not only speaks ill of the mentality of the CO, but degrades the "sport" as an enjoyable excuse to get outdoors and experience nature.

Wow, again...I guess there is no activity which doesn't attract the dregs. Sad.

Ho hum.

Geocaching is at it's base, hide-n-seek. One person's trache is another person's well earned smiley.

This is an all volunteer community. It's important to keep that in mind..... To down the efforts of those that want to participate by judgeing folks on your own personal aesthetic criteria is the essence of the entitlement mentality. Don't worry. You're not alone. :laughing:

Geocaches are choices. As responsible individuals we are ultimatly to blame for our choices of how we spend our free quality time. I think of my free quality time as money. I spend it wisely.

Don't expect others to cater to you. There's caches enough for every taste. Go seek the ones you like best and leave the rest for the folks that like them.

Go to a few events and meet your fellow cachers in your local caching continuum. Dregs is not the word that will come to mind.

Where do you draw the line....?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment