Brain Freeze - Help! What are they called...

January 3, 2008

I'm putting a cache on one of those electrical boxes that have the dimensions roughly 4'x5'x4'. Been trying all day to think what they're called. Anybody got the official name? Help!

Tx, L'Oreo

January 3, 2008

Electrical Transformer? Some people frown on those types of caches, It could be dangerous for people to go poking around a 4'x5'x4' Transformer.

January 3, 2008

I'd re-think the idea of placing something on one of those boxes.

January 3, 2008

Junction box?

I hope you're talking about an obviously fake one.

January 3, 2008

Electrical Transformer?

Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.

18.9k · January 3, 2008

You did get permission didn't you??

(I doubt any sane electric company would give it)

6.4k · January 3, 2008

Electrical Transformer?
Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.

I've found magnetics on those

22.1k · January 3, 2008

Not a Getting Started issue. Moving to the Geocaching Topics forum, as I sense that this thread is evolving into a discussion of the appropriateness of this type of cache hide.

1.4k · January 3, 2008

I'm putting a cache on one of those electrical boxes that have the dimensions roughly 4'x5'x4'. Been trying all day to think what they're called. Anybody got the official name? Help!

Tx, L'Oreo

If it's just a box with a cover and different sized knock-outs, we just called them junction boxes or J-box for short.

3.3k · January 3, 2008

Electrical Transformer?
Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.

You do realize that the voltage inside of those transformers is usually 4160 volts before it gets stepped down? A shock at the voltage will kill you, I saw it first hand when someone jackhammered into a 4160 line that fed a green transformer.

January 3, 2008

Electrical Transformer?
Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.

You do realize that the voltage inside of those transformers is usually 4160 volts before it gets stepped down? A shock at the voltage will kill you, I saw it first hand when someone jackhammered into a 4160 line that fed a green transformer.

It depends if you get an empty one you will be fine but when the electric company gets their maps that show wires nearby they will open it up. Have fun with the cache!

January 3, 2008

I have heard three of those blow up before, they make one heck of a loud bang and there is almost nothing left of them afterward. Closest I have been when one blew up was about a quarter mile, definitely shook the building I was in, it is good it doesn't happen that frequently.

You might be able to get permission for it but, the electric company does routine maintenance on them and they might take your geocache away if they see one on top of it. The fins on the big ones such as the one in the picture are used for cooling and if something was stuck in between the fins it would definitely be taken away.

38.2k · January 3, 2008

Electrical Transformer?
Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.

Do you own it? If not you will need permission.

January 3, 2008

Electrical Transformer?
Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.

You do realize that the voltage inside of those transformers is usually 4160 volts before it gets stepped down? A shock at the voltage will kill you, I saw it first hand when someone jackhammered into a 4160 line that fed a green transformer.

That blanket statement won't quite fly. Yes a shock from a transformer that has the ability to distribute 4160 volts through a person definately has the ability to kill one. It won't always happen that way. Just like lighting won't always kill. Yes that amount of voltage that ALL hits one's heart should stop it dead, but many 'freak' incidents occur. Of course I am not suggesting that someone would come out of a shock 'just fine' either.

The article linked below is fairly competent but could use additional sources . .. I'll cite some if I want to be a nerd later.

WikiPedia Article

Now I'll wait for more of the "This COULD happen, That COULD happen" theories from some of the other regulars. . . .

Edited January 3, 2008 by scorpio_dark

January 3, 2008

Please don't put a cache in such a box. Here's one reason why:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/lofiversi...hp?t129586.html

This also applies to non-live electrical equipment, because it only encourages geocachers to open all such boxes.

Edited January 3, 2008 by kbraband

January 3, 2008

Do you see th Bison Tube I Hid Here?

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/age.../images/emf.jpg

Just Kidding People...

January 3, 2008

Please don't put a cache in such a box. Here's one reason why:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/lofiversi...hp?t129586.html

This also applies to non-live electrical equipment, because it only encourages geocachers to open all such boxes.

I was waiting for that article to be cited again. Bottom line is this is the millionth (not literal) thread on caches placed near electrical equipment. Usually these develop into 'educated' folks appealing to others 'common sense' et cetera to not place these caches. And others scoffing at the 'paranoid' forum population.

1 - Electrical equipment is dangerous.

2 - A shock at any voltage can kill you (not arguing likelihood here)

3 - You need permission to place on other's property and likely will not get it from a commercial or consumer-owned utility.

4 - There are two (and in some jurisdictions, three) codes that regulate additions or adjustments to electrical equipment that serves a residential or commericial consumer. These codes only make it legal to place electrical geocaches in certain situations.

If it's fake I say more power to you. I don't fully invest into this 'following the herd' argument that people like to tout here. Common sense needs to be taken on the part of the finder too.

Have fun!

Edited January 3, 2008 by scorpio_dark

3.3k · January 3, 2008

That blanket statement won't quite fly. Yes a shock from a transformer that has the ability to distribute 4160 volts through a person definately has the ability to kill one. It won't always happen that way. Just like lighting won't always kill. Yes that amount of voltage that ALL hits one's heart should stop it dead, but many 'freak' incidents occur. Of course I am not suggesting that someone would come out of a shock 'just fine' either.

4160 volts is usually run through 4/0 shielded cable, and it can safely handle 200 amps. 200 amps will kill regardless of what you think. If if doesn't kill you instantly, it will kill you within a few days from the "microwave effect" of your internals being cooked. I spent a week on a crime scene with high voltage electritions what do I know?

Edited January 3, 2008 by Kit Fox

1.4k · January 3, 2008

I would be all for immediate archival of any cache placed on, or simulating, electrical equipment.

January 3, 2008

deleted

Edited January 3, 2008 by Great Scott!

11.3k · January 3, 2008

I would be all for immediate archival of any cache placed on, or simulating, electrical equipment.

If you came here to cache, you would be posting quite a few SBA Notes . . .

I can't say I like caches placed on those, but they are used a lot in this area.

1.4k · January 3, 2008

I would be all for immediate archival of any cache placed on, or simulating, electrical equipment.

If you came here to cache, you would be posting quite a few SBA Notes . . .

I can't say I like caches placed on those, but they are used a lot in this area.

I don't place SBA notes on them. I just won't do them...I just wouldn't mind seeing them go away. In Iowa it's not a problem...our reviewer, and our cacher base, it pretty much against them.

8.9k · January 3, 2008

I'll just add my usual BAD IDEA comment and leave it go....it's always amazing how some think this is a good hiding spot. Hope no one gets hurt!

January 3, 2008

We just found a magnetic keybox stuck under the top lip above the cooling fins on the back of one of these. hhmmm, anybody want the GC# ?

20.7k · January 3, 2008

Electrical Transformer?
Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.
You do realize that the voltage inside of those transformers is usually 4160 volts before it gets stepped down? A shock at the voltage will kill you, I saw it first hand when someone jackhammered into a 4160 line that fed a green transformer.

Since the voltage that you refer to is inside the thing and the cache is outside the thing, I don't see the problem.

Granted, I don't know much about electrical transformers (Truthfully, I know only what your post stated because I read your post). However, I would think that if these things were really dangerous that the companies would build fences around them. That way I couldn't lean against it whilst tying my shoe, my dog couldn't pee on it, and hide-a-keys wouldn't find themselves stuck to it.

Edited January 3, 2008 by sbell111

8.9k · January 3, 2008

Electrical Transformer?
Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.
You do realize that the voltage inside of those transformers is usually 4160 volts before it gets stepped down? A shock at the voltage will kill you, I saw it first hand when someone jackhammered into a 4160 line that fed a green transformer.
Since the voltage that you refer to is inside the thing and the cache is outside the thing, I don't see the problem.

Granted, I don't know much about electrical transformers (Truthfully, I know only what your post stated because I read your post). However, I would think that if these things were really dangerous that the companies would build fences around them. That way I couldn't lean against it whilst tying my shoe, my dog couldn't pee on it, and hide-a-keys wouldn't find themselves stuck to it.

Actually, I'm surprised there isn't a fence! Most around here seem to have fencing so as to keep the uninformed from killing themselves (usually kids, but....). This is private property NOT owned by the property owners, this is the property of the utilities company...why not just skip all the guessing here and ASK permission for it's use. Wanna bet the answer??

20.7k · January 3, 2008

Electrical Transformer?
Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.
You do realize that the voltage inside of those transformers is usually 4160 volts before it gets stepped down? A shock at the voltage will kill you, I saw it first hand when someone jackhammered into a 4160 line that fed a green transformer.
Since the voltage that you refer to is inside the thing and the cache is outside the thing, I don't see the problem.

Granted, I don't know much about electrical transformers (Truthfully, I know only what your post stated because I read your post). However, I would think that if these things were really dangerous that the companies would build fences around them. That way I couldn't lean against it whilst tying my shoe, my dog couldn't pee on it, and hide-a-keys wouldn't find themselves stuck to it.

Actually, I'm surprised there isn't a fence! Most around here seem to have fencing so as to keep the uninformed from killing themselves (usually kids, but....).

The ones that I've seen near stores don't have fences. They just sit there next to the sidewalk. Given this, I suspect that the chance of them electrocuting someone who touches them are about the same as a manhole cover giving way as you step on it.

January 4, 2008

I swear every 5th one i find in the phoenix area has one. But I dont put them there...just sign and go.

January 4, 2008

That blanket statement won't quite fly. Yes a shock from a transformer that has the ability to distribute 4160 volts through a person definately has the ability to kill one. It won't always happen that way. Just like lighting won't always kill. Yes that amount of voltage that ALL hits one's heart should stop it dead, but many 'freak' incidents occur. Of course I am not suggesting that someone would come out of a shock 'just fine' either.

4160 volts is usually run through 4/0 shielded cable, and it can safely handle 200 amps. 200 amps will kill regardless of what you think. If if doesn't kill you instantly, it will kill you within a few days from the "microwave effect" of your internals being cooked. I spent a week on a crime scene with high voltage electritions what do I know?

<<<EDIT: Even more Non-constructive bickering and rude comments deleted>>>

Yes now that we're talking amps. There you go. . . . . Yay for you, but that's not what you said initially. Adding conditions afterward is all well and good. Volts and amps are not synonymous or even quite like Fahrenheit or Celsius temperatures (measuring the same things differently). Don't even know why I care, so I'll quit . . .Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah . . .. Too wordy . . . too nerdy . . . not worth arguing with a self-proven genius . . . Going to go cache before work.

Edited January 4, 2008 by scorpio_dark

2.7k · January 4, 2008

Transformer boxes are perfectly safe. As long as you don't open one up and it is functioning perfectly. The cooling fins are there to do just that. Cool the transformer if it starts getting too hot. Under normal conditions they may get warm to the tough. Under a heavy load (heavy usage) or if the transformer itself is malfunctioning it can get hot enough to melt skin on contact. I've seen enough real sprinkler heads pulled from and laying in pieces the ground near caches hidden in shrubbery to know that placing a cache on a box where if someone who doesn't know what they are doing decided to force their way in would be inviting certain death is a very bad idea.

2k · January 4, 2008

Theres a bunch of micros magnetized to these boxes in AZ. I call them "utility boxes"

1.4k · January 4, 2008

Electrical Transformer?
Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.

You do realize that the voltage inside of those transformers is usually 4160 volts before it gets stepped down? A shock at the voltage will kill you, I saw it first hand when someone jackhammered into a 4160 line that fed a green transformer.

We had 13,000 feeding our transformers and believe it or not we had a painter get tangled up in one leg to ground, which we figured is about 7,200 volts and he lived to tell about it.

38.2k · January 4, 2008

The debate over the safety of these boxes is irrelevant. Yeah, they probably are safe. The chance of a geocacher being electrocuted is remote. Probably about as likely as someone being electrocuted poking around a lamp post.

But they are private property. If you can get the utility company (or whomever owns it) to give you permission, then go for it.

3.3k · January 4, 2008

The debate over the safety of these boxes is irrelevant. Yeah, they probably are safe. The chance of a geocacher being electrocuted is remote. Probably about as likely as someone being electrocuted poking around a lamp post.

But they are private property. If you can get the utility company (or whomever owns it) to give you permission, then go for it.

I agree with Briansnat (for the 1000th time!). In my early days I actually hid a cache underneath one of these, because I found numerous other hides like it, and assumed it was ok. I've wisened up and have learned to keep geocachers away from confrontation when looking for my caches. I archived that cache.

Besides permission issues what real redeaming value does a transformer add to geocaching?

18.9k · January 4, 2008

The debate over the safety of these boxes is irrelevant. Yeah, they probably are safe. The chance of a geocacher being electrocuted is remote. Probably about as likely as someone being electrocuted poking around a lamp post.

But they are private property. If you can get the utility company (or whomever owns it) to give you permission, then go for it.

Very well put. There is one like this in our area and numerous logs show land owner/ nearby concerned citizens reacting to searches.

8.9k · January 4, 2008

Electrical Transformer?
Ahh-ha! I image-googled that phrase and came up with a picture of what I was considering placing a cache on. I've found caches on these before.
You do realize that the voltage inside of those transformers is usually 4160 volts before it gets stepped down? A shock at the voltage will kill you, I saw it first hand when someone jackhammered into a 4160 line that fed a green transformer.
Since the voltage that you refer to is inside the thing and the cache is outside the thing, I don't see the problem.

Granted, I don't know much about electrical transformers (Truthfully, I know only what your post stated because I read your post). However, I would think that if these things were really dangerous that the companies would build fences around them. That way I couldn't lean against it whilst tying my shoe, my dog couldn't pee on it, and hide-a-keys wouldn't find themselves stuck to it.

Actually, I'm surprised there isn't a fence! Most around here seem to have fencing so as to keep the uninformed from killing themselves (usually kids, but....). This is private property NOT owned by the property owners, this is the property of the utilities company...why not just skip all the guessing here and ASK permission for it's use. Wanna bet the answer??

It's amazing how some miss the private property issue, it's as if they forget that they don't own everything just because it's in the public!! They just keep getting stuck on their perception that it's safe...much like teasing the lions at the zoo. Sooner or later....

January 4, 2008

briansnat Posted Today, 03:51 AM
The debate over the safety of these boxes is irrelevant. Yeah, they probably are safe. The chance of a geocacher being electrocuted is remote. Probably about as likely as someone being electrocuted poking around a lamp post.

But they are private property. If you can get the utility company (or whomever owns it) to give you permission, then go for it.

I'll chime in to agree with Briansnat here.

While I am not an expert, I did go to college under an Electrical Engineering major and have worked as an electronic technician for over 20 years.

I will also say the boxes are probably safe to most casual passers-by.

But the boxes are someone's private property. To be compliant with the cache listing guidelines we really should get permission to place a cache on one of these. Good luck on getting that permission, though.

20.7k · January 4, 2008

It's amazing how some miss the private property issue, it's as if they forget that they don't own everything just because it's in the public!! They just keep getting stuck on their perception that it's safe...much like teasing the lions at the zoo. Sooner or later....

Actually, this thread's issue was not about safety or permission. It was whether any of us knew what those things were called.

Regarding your lion analogy, I don't think it fits. A better one would be if a person climbed over a fence separating a tiger enclosure and taunted the cat until the cat climbed the barrier and diced him. If the person stayed outside the fence and teased the cat, the zoo would be totally wrong. However, if the person entered an area that he wasn't supposed to go in, he would be seen by the cat as entering the feline's domain. At that point, he becomes food and gets what he gets.

Similiarly, the danger of getting electrocuted from placing or removing a magnetic key safe from one of these items approaches zero. The danger would rise to 100% if a geocacher broke one of them open, but the chance of that happening also approaches zero.

Edited January 4, 2008 by sbell111

January 4, 2008

Regarding your lion analogy, I don't think it fits. A better one would be if a person climbed over a fence separating a tiger enclosure and taunted the cat until the cat climbed the barrier and diced him. If the person stayed outside the fence and teased the cat, the zoo would be totally wrong. However, if the person entered an area that he wasn't supposed to go in, he would be seen by the cat as entering the feline's domain. At that point, he becomes food and gets what he gets.

Similiarly, the danger of getting electrocuted from placing or removing a magnetic key safe from one of these items approaches zero. The danger would rise to 100% if a geocacher broke one of them open, but the chance of that happening also approaches zero.

Thanks Sbell! The words I was just ready to write, but more kind and eloquent.

Edited January 4, 2008 by scorpio_dark

8.9k · January 4, 2008

Whatever... You taunt my dog and it breaks it's logchain to get you, I blame YOU!! Sure the zoo will get a lot of grief over this because of the mistake made on the fence...is it possible an electrician could make a "fatal" mistake while installing or maintaining one of those boxes.....hmmmmm, I suppose it IS possible! Is it possible a little furry critter sneaks in and makes mincemeat of the wiring...maybe!

And you're right this didn't start as a safety or permission issue, it progressed to that...

20.7k · January 4, 2008

And you're right this didn't start as a safety or permission issue, it progressed to that...

It progressed to that because those issues are among some posters favorite ones to jump on.

8.9k · January 4, 2008

Ummm....nope. It was because someone wanted to know the name of the object they were using as a hiding spot and some of us reminded them that permission was needed. It's a fair jump since that's not an appropriate location and the OP stated that was the intent.

Favorite or not, if it's the right thing to remind someone, good folks will do just that!

I'm done arguing the points here as they've been made....have fun!

January 4, 2008

Whatever... You taunt my dog and it breaks it's logchain to get you, I blame YOU!! Sure the zoo will get a lot of grief over this because of the mistake made on the fence...is it possible an electrician could make a "fatal" mistake while installing or maintaining one of those boxes.....hmmmmm, I suppose it IS possible! Is it possible a little furry critter sneaks in and makes mincemeat of the wiring...maybe!

And you're right this didn't start as a safety or permission issue, it progressed to that...

Duh, because your dog is not on display in an exhibitionary environment.

And if the kid entered the fence area, then the comparison would be to some idiot opening up an electrical box that says NO! And the fatal mistake comparison couldn't work in this case.

SBell provided a balanced example (needed in a comparison/contrast). You are attacking it from one side and assuming the facts in the case. Statements have been made and retracted on both theories. So we can't draw just one comparison or the other.

5.7k · January 4, 2008

The debate over the safety of these boxes is irrelevant. Yeah, they probably are safe. The chance of a geocacher being electrocuted is remote. Probably about as likely as someone being electrocuted poking around a lamp post.

But they are private property. If you can get the utility company (or whomever owns it) to give you permission, then go for it.

Very well put. There is one like this in our area and numerous logs show land owner/ nearby concerned citizens reacting to searches.

Didn't I read somewhere that all of the Wal-Mart stores and all of the mall operators across the United States 'O Merica had given blanket approval for geocaches to be hidden under their parking lot lamp post skirt thingies?

I'm fairly certain that I have seen that somewhere. :unsure:

Pretty cool, eh?

6.7k · January 4, 2008

People play the permission card when they have no real argument and want to enforce their opinion on others.

No question that permission is required here, just a question of when folks choose to enforce it.

If someone were to do a survey of caches on private property I seriously doubt that 25% would have permission.

Any reviewer who declines one like this over the permission issue should also have to archive the 75% (guesstimate) or so of private-property caches that do not have permission either.

If every cache that required it under the guidelines had to prove permission there would be a wholesale slaughter of caches worldwide. I call it geocaching's dirty little secret.

The same with the transformer / electrical box safety red herring... If I were to post that a cache should not be listed on a cliff face because the cacher might fall and die the same people carrying on about electrical box safety would jump to the defense of the cliff cache and state that cachers determine their own risk level!

Edited January 4, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

1.4k · January 4, 2008

People play the permission card when they have no real argument and want to enforce their opinion on others.

No question that permission is required here, just a question of when folks choose to enforce it.

If someone were to do a survey of caches on private property I seriously doubt that 25% would have permission.

Any reviewer who declines one like this over the permission issue should also have to archive the 75% (guesstimate) or so of private-property caches that do not have permission either.

If every cache that required it under the guidelines had to prove permission there would be a wholesale slaughter of caches worldwide. I call it geocaching's dirty little secret.

Yet, it's still a valid card to be played. It's unfortunate that people may use it in that manner, but conversely it's not their fault that those percentage of caches slipped through the system either.

I don't see it as unfair for people to mention it though...particularly in a thread where someone is new to the game and maybe hadn't considered it.

But, you're right...it gets played somewhat out of convenience.

Myself, while I agree the permission aspect, it's just personal preference of mine that these caches weren't allowed. Hence my comments as such and avoiding the "permission" aspect as the crux of my opinion.

Edited January 4, 2008 by egami

3.3k · January 4, 2008

People play the permission card when they have no real argument and want to enforce their opinion on others.

No question that permission is required here, just a question of when folks choose to enforce it.

If someone were to do a survey of caches on private property I seriously doubt that 25% would have permission.

Any reviewer who declines one like this over the permission issue should also have to archive the 75% (guesstimate) or so of private-property caches that do not have permission either.

If every cache that required it under the guidelines had to prove permission there would be a wholesale slaughter of caches worldwide. I call it geocaching's dirty little secret.

The same with the transformer / electrical box safety red herring... If I were to post that a cache should not be listed on a cliff face because the cacher might fall and die the same people carrying on about electrical box safety would jump to the defense of the cliff cache and state that cachers determine their own risk level!

And the majority of the "dirty secret" caches are hidden strictly as number padding caches:

Lamppost caches

guardrail caches

newspaper rack caches

Transformer box caches

Caches hidden on private property, but it was, "a quick park and grab."

I could on and on

20.7k · January 4, 2008

And the majority of the "dirty secret" caches are hidden strictly as number padding caches:

Lamppost caches

guardrail caches

newspaper rack caches

Transformer box caches

Caches hidden on private property, but it was, "a quick park and grab."

I could on and on

This is one opinion that you and a few others throw out and, in my opinion, only serves to belittle the view of those that clearly enjoy these caches. I don't see how it has anything to do with this thread.

6.7k · January 4, 2008

And the majority of the "dirty secret" caches are hidden strictly as number padding caches:

I think it's more a matter of laziness, contempt for rules, and lack of oversight than it is for a conscious desire to place 'numbers' caches.

The motivation really doesn't matter, the point is that lack-of-adequate-permission will always be used whimsically and discriminately.

Any mention I have ever made that permission, where required, should be verified has been resoundingly ridiculed and defeated, so I don't see any change, any time we tell someone "most geocaches that require permission have it" we'll be lying.

Unfortunately the only way to prove that is to make such a survey, and anyone who embarks on that path will destroy themselves in the eyes of the community.

Edited January 4, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

20.7k · January 4, 2008

... for good reason.

Brain Freeze - Help! What are they called...

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