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Brain Freeze - Help! What are they called...


Oreo Pony

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It seems insane to me that dispite the fact that these are most definately on private property (regardless if it is situated on public property, the box itself is off limits to ALL except the utilities' or facilities' employees), and repeated statements of the potential dangers, from utility workers (like snow) and certified electrical inspectors (me), they still defend these hides. I'd like to hear from these guys as to their expertise in high voltage/amperage electrical equipment. :ph34r: Because I don't believe anybody that does have experience with this kind of equipment, would EVER advocate putting something on there that would have folks with no electrical experience putzing and prodding around on them.

 

They advocate the hides because either

A: They enjoy the '1/1 micro' farms.

B: They have quite a number hidden and are trying to convince them self they are doing no wrong.

C: Because they're idiots.

Or D: Because they like arguing.

 

Of course they all know everything there is to know about everything, and you know nothing. That's the law of the internet. "I know everything, and if you don't agree with me, you know nothing."

 

You, and Snow, and Johnny, and countless other have all said what they can. Some of the supporters (those who didn't fall in to any of the four spots I listed) have come to either agree with you, or know when tojust shut up because they're out gunned.

 

I'm going to put my 2 cents on this discussion, because .. Well, I can. And it doesn't really quite jibe with anyone elses:

 

1: It's an ungodly uncreative place to hide a cache.

2: Yes it's private property. so technically you should get permission. But that doesn't mean too much to me, not on something like this. (because there's no way in hell you're getting permission)

3: It's possibly sorta dangerous yes. These things can get warked. But, feh, nothing in life is safe, and just as poking at things like this increases your chances of getting electrocuted by them, driving between caches increases your chance of getting in to a fatal car accident, and romping through the woods looking for a cache increases your chances of getting mauled by a bear. And every day you live, increases your chances of dying.

 

The rules say don't place them without permission.

If you care about the rules, you're set.

 

Creativity says find someplace else to hide them.

If creativity is a major concern, then don't place it.

 

They're a potentially dangerous thing.

If safety is a concern, well, I'd say the statistical odds are still more in favor of getting hit by a car while poking around it than getting shocked while poking around it. But, from the safety standpoint it's still an additional risk.

 

I will say this though: If you decide to ignore all negative aspects of one of these caches, make sure to post in your entry that it is not INSIDE the device, and if the device looks damaged, to avoid the cache and contact the electrical company.

 

It may give away something about your cache, but it could save a life, and also save the cachers who don't like these caches, the gas of driving to it.

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... Because I don't believe anybody that does have experience with this kind of equipment, would EVER advocate putting something on there that would have folks with no electrical experience putzing and prodding around on them.
This is the part of your post that makes me roll my eyes. You see, the way you describe the danger and our activities suggests that you thing that geocachers might be cracking these babies open to see what's inside, instead of walking around them to see if a hide-a-key is stuck to it. Given that I've seen my neighbor's lawn service run a weed wacker around the one that's at the corner of his yard and haven't yet found one of these guys dead on his lawn suggests that perhaps the danger is on the inside of these boxes, not on the outside.
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I had a long, drawn out reply which broke down your post and discussed all of your points, but instead, I'll only hit on the things that are pertainent to this thread's topic and not reply to those issues that are off topic or in other ways violations of the forum guidelines.:

3: It's possibly sorta dangerous yes. These things can get warked. But, feh, nothing in life is safe, and just as poking at things like this increases your chances of getting electrocuted by them, driving between caches increases your chance of getting in to a fatal car accident, and romping through the woods looking for a cache increases your chances of getting mauled by a bear. And every day you live, increases your chances of dying.
This is the same position that many of us have taken throughout this thread.
They're a potentially dangerous thing.

If safety is a concern, well, I'd say the statistical odds are still more in favor of getting hit by a car while poking around it than getting shocked while poking around it. But, from the safety standpoint it's still an additional risk.

It sure is. It's probably the same amount of risk that you have from being attacked by a bear in downtone Milwaukee, but it certainly does add some additional risk. Edited by sbell111
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... Because I don't believe anybody that does have experience with this kind of equipment, would EVER advocate putting something on there that would have folks with no electrical experience putzing and prodding around on them.
This is the part of your post that makes me roll my eyes. You see, the way you describe the danger and our activities suggests that you thing that geocachers might be cracking these babies open to see what's inside, instead of walking around them to see if a hide-a-key is stuck to it. Given that I've seen my neighbor's lawn service run a weed wacker around the one that's at the corner of his yard and haven't yet found one of these guys dead on his lawn suggests that perhaps the danger is on the inside of these boxes, not on the outside.

 

Obviously you were oblivious to the links presented here which have shown that people do indeed get killed by these things, or you maybe you thought they were fictional accounts just made up to persuede you. The danger can indeed be on the OUTSIDE of the box, if the ground has failed for any reason. And your neighbor isn't going to get shocked using a weed wacker.... nylon string isn't a great conductor. :ph34r:

 

You haven't answered the question, though. What kind of hands-on experience with high voltage and/or amperage electrical equipment do you have? (other than pulling a nano off one)

 

Congrats on your finds, you haven't been unlucky...yet. Go ahead, jinx yourself, and say "It will NEVER happen to me"....

Edited by geowizerd
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Obviously you were oblivious to the links presented here which have shown that people do indeed get killed by these things, or you maybe you thought they were fictional accounts just made up to persuede you. The danger can indeed be on the OUTSIDE of the box, if the ground has failed for any reason. And your neighbor isn't going to get shocked using a weed wacker.... nylon string isn't a great conductor. :ph34r:
I saw the examples, I simply wasn't compelled by them.

 

Back in 1997, two tourists were walking down the sidewalk in Nashville when a transformer blew up. One of them died, the other was seriously injured. Strangely, people still walk down that sidewalk.

 

In 2002, I was driving to the airport when I encountered a drunk guy driving his truck the wrong way down the interstate. The resulting crash resulted in my needing plastic surgery to my face and surgery to repair my spine. Strangely, even though that is a known danger, I still drive.

 

In our everyday lives, dangers exist that could easily kill us. In fact, all caches pose some risk of danger or death. Each of us accepts that risk and decides for ourselves which caches are 'safe enough' to go after. If we come face to face with a cache that we feel is too dangerous, it is up to each of us to turn around and look for a cache that we are more comfortable with finding.

You haven't answered the question, though. What kind of hands-on experience with high voltage and/or amperage electrical equipment do you have? (other than pulling a nano off one)
I have no more or less experience than any other homeowner on the planet. Happily, I don't need to be experienced in the inner workings of a transformer to know that the outside of one of those boxes pose extremely little danger.
Congrats on your finds, you haven't been unlucky...yet. Go ahead, jinx yourself, and say "It will NEVER happen to me"....
Since I have much better odds of winning a really huge mega millions prize, I feel completely confident stating the following: It will never happen to me. Edited by sbell111
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Obviously you were oblivious to the links presented here which have shown that people do indeed get killed by these things, or you maybe you thought they were fictional accounts just made up to persuede you. The danger can indeed be on the OUTSIDE of the box, if the ground has failed for any reason. And your neighbor isn't going to get shocked using a weed wacker.... nylon string isn't a great conductor. :ph34r:
I saw the examples, I simply wasn't compelled by them.

 

Back in 1997, two tourists were walking down the sidewalk in Nashville when a transformer blew up. One of them died, the other was seriously injured. Strangely, people still walk down that sidewalk.

 

In 2002, I was driving to the airport when I encountered a drunk guy driving his truck the wrong way down the interstate. The resulting crash resulted in my needing plastic surgery to my face and surgery to repair my spine. Strangely, even though that is a known danger, I still drive.

 

In our everyday lives, dangers exist that could easily kill us. In fact, all caches pose some risk of danger or death. Each of us accepts that risk and decides for ourselves which caches are 'safe enough' to go after. If we come face to face with a cache that we feel is too dangerous, it is up to each of us to turn around and look for a cache that we are more comfortable with finding.

You haven't answered the question, though. What kind of hands-on experience with high voltage and/or amperage electrical equipment do you have? (other than pulling a nano off one)
I have no more or less experience than any other homeowner on the planet. Happily, I don't need to be experienced in the inner workings of a transformer to know that the outside of one of those boxes pose extremely little danger.
Congrats on your finds, you haven't been unlucky...yet. Go ahead, jinx yourself, and say "It will NEVER happen to me"....
Since I have much better odds of winning a really huge mega millions prize, I feel completely confident stating the following: It will never happen to me.

 

To paraphrase the Dread Pirate Roberts; Your logic is dizzying. :) It's a shame that little kids getting electrocuted aren't compelling to you. :) I am referring to placing caches where you know you could be potentially putting people at risk. Nevermind that they are on private property. BTW, does your staunch defense of these urban micros have anything to do with the fact that 26 of your 28 cache placements were urban micros?

 

As to the last line, good luck with that! :D

Edited by geowizerd
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I agree with the poster who said they really aren't as dangerous as they would appear. If they were as dangerous as people seem to be saying here (including those who work in the industry), why would they be placing them in places that people can go right up and touch them. Yes, faults occur in electrical systems, and yes, people get shocked, injuried, or killed sometimes by electricity. But if these objects were as dangerous as people in the industry would make us believe (and I'm referring to the outside, not the inner workings), they wouldn't be allowed to place one 10 feet from the outside door to an elementary school a block from my house, without a fence. Warning stickers aside (because we all know kids don't read them), there is little done to protect these objects from poking and prodding hands. I guarantee if they were as dangerous as some in the industry would want us to believe, someone would have gotten shocked or killed, someone would have sued, and there would be multiple layers of protection around them because of litigation. Guaranteed...

 

Look what happens when someone spills hot coffee on themselves! (yes, I know there is more to it, but the point is the same)

Edited by FireRef
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To paraphrase the Dread Pirate Roberts; Your logic is dizzying.
I have no idea who that is, but I find your logic to be troublesome. You are taking the position that since, in very rare cases, these items have been dangerous, then they should always be given wide berth. If I were to take this position with every item and location that 'could' pose danger, I would never leave the comfort of my bed.
It's a shame that little kids getting electrocuted aren't compelling to you.
I'm sorry, but you don't win the argument with a blanket 'It's about the chidlren' line.
I am referring to placing caches where you know you could be potentially putting people at risk.
Every cache location presents some possible, potential risk.
Nevermind that they are on private property.
Plenty of caches reside on private property.
BTW, does your staunch defense of these urban micros have anything to do with the fact that 26 of your 28 cache placements were urban micros?
No, why should it? None of my caches were placed on such an object. They were all micros that brought the seeker to some place that I felt was interesting, for one reason or another. For what it's worth, this series of caches was archived shortly after my accident because I was concerned that I wouldn't be able to keep up with their maintenance needs. Some of them were good enough that others soon hid replacement caches in their spots. Edited by sbell111
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They advocate the hides because either

A: They enjoy the '1/1 micro' farms.

B: They have quite a number hidden and are trying to convince them self they are doing no wrong.

C: Because they're idiots.

Or D: Because they like arguing.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you can call them idiots. Show a little more respect when disagreeing. There's no need to call names.

 

1: It's an ungodly uncreative place to hide a cache.
Not true. The first one I ever saw I thought was very creative. Looking back on my caches, I've found more ammo cans in the woods covered by sticks, so are those also ungodly uncreative?

 

2: Yes it's private property. so technically you should get permission.
Adequate permission. Which I'm sure all the hiders (and the reviewers) believe they have.

 

3: It's possibly sorta dangerous yes. These things can get warked. But, feh, nothing in life is safe, and just as poking at things like this increases your chances of getting electrocuted by them, driving between caches increases your chance of getting in to a fatal car accident, and romping through the woods looking for a cache increases your chances of getting mauled by a bear. And every day you live, increases your chances of dying.
Which is what several people have said. Nothing is 100% safe, these aren't proving to be any more dangerous than any other type of hide, so the safety reason is a red herring. There must be some other reason people keep suggesting LPCs shouldn't be allowed.

 

The rules say don't place them without permission.
No, they don't. They say "adequate" permission. The word you left out is very important.

 

Creativity says find someplace else to hide them.
Creativity says don't hide them in a lamp post skirt??? Does that mean that all of your hides are truly original techniques, and you have no ammo cans or Tupperware containers as caches? Because I've seen those used a LOT.

 

They're a potentially dangerous thing.

If safety is a concern, well, I'd say the statistical odds are still more in favor of getting hit by a car while poking around it than getting shocked while poking around it. But, from the safety standpoint it's still an additional risk.

As you're eager to point out, the safety is a very small concern. You keep bringing it up, but then brushing it off. It's hard to follow your line of reasoning.

 

I will say this though: If you decide to ignore all negative aspects of one of these caches, make sure to post in your entry that it is not INSIDE the device, and if the device looks damaged, to avoid the cache and contact the electrical company.
This piece of advise reminds me of the peanut butter allergy thread that suggested if you're going to use an old peanut butter jar as a container you should warn people. Should we list every danger that exists, however small, on the cache pages? We'd have to point out every sharp edge, every direction a car could come from, every insect that could bite you, every allergen that might be on the container, etc.

 

I prefer to let the finder be aware of his own surroundings and only take the risks he's willing to take. I can't save everyone from themselves, nor do I want to.

 

It may give away something about your cache, but it could save a life, and also save the cachers who don't like these caches, the gas of driving to it.
This is the biggest reason people are suggesting that LPCs aren't safe. They just don't like them but there are no filters for "Caches that Zolgar doesn't like" in a PQ.
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They advocate the hides because either

A: They enjoy the '1/1 micro' farms.

B: They have quite a number hidden and are trying to convince them self they are doing no wrong.

C: Because they're idiots.

Or D: Because they like arguing.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you can call them idiots. Show a little more respect when disagreeing. There's no need to call names.

 

1: It's an ungodly uncreative place to hide a cache.
Not true. The first one I ever saw I thought was very creative. Looking back on my caches, I've found more ammo cans in the woods covered by sticks, so are those also ungodly uncreative?

 

2: Yes it's private property. so technically you should get permission.
Adequate permission. Which I'm sure all the hiders (and the reviewers) believe they have.

 

3: It's possibly sorta dangerous yes. These things can get warked. But, feh, nothing in life is safe, and just as poking at things like this increases your chances of getting electrocuted by them, driving between caches increases your chance of getting in to a fatal car accident, and romping through the woods looking for a cache increases your chances of getting mauled by a bear. And every day you live, increases your chances of dying.
Which is what several people have said. Nothing is 100% safe, these aren't proving to be any more dangerous than any other type of hide, so the safety reason is a red herring. There must be some other reason people keep suggesting LPCs shouldn't be allowed.

 

The rules say don't place them without permission.
No, they don't. They say "adequate" permission. The word you left out is very important.

 

Creativity says find someplace else to hide them.
Creativity says don't hide them in a lamp post skirt??? Does that mean that all of your hides are truly original techniques, and you have no ammo cans or Tupperware containers as caches? Because I've seen those used a LOT.

 

They're a potentially dangerous thing.

If safety is a concern, well, I'd say the statistical odds are still more in favor of getting hit by a car while poking around it than getting shocked while poking around it. But, from the safety standpoint it's still an additional risk.

As you're eager to point out, the safety is a very small concern. You keep bringing it up, but then brushing it off. It's hard to follow your line of reasoning.

 

I will say this though: If you decide to ignore all negative aspects of one of these caches, make sure to post in your entry that it is not INSIDE the device, and if the device looks damaged, to avoid the cache and contact the electrical company.
This piece of advise reminds me of the peanut butter allergy thread that suggested if you're going to use an old peanut butter jar as a container you should warn people. Should we list every danger that exists, however small, on the cache pages? We'd have to point out every sharp edge, every direction a car could come from, every insect that could bite you, every allergen that might be on the container, etc.

 

I prefer to let the finder be aware of his own surroundings and only take the risks he's willing to take. I can't save everyone from themselves, nor do I want to.

 

It may give away something about your cache, but it could save a life, and also save the cachers who don't like these caches, the gas of driving to it.
This is the biggest reason people are suggesting that LPCs aren't safe. They just don't like them but there are no filters for "Caches that Zolgar doesn't like" in a PQ.

The conversation isn't about LPC's.......

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The conversation isn't about LPC's.......

Ooh, you got me there. I suppose my post is completely invalid now.

 

From now on I'll list ALL the possible dangers to someone as they're searching for one of my caches, that way they'll be perfectly safe.

 

Suddenly ammo cans are creative, and these kinds of hides are not.

 

:D

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The conversation isn't about LPC's.......

Ooh, you got me there. I suppose my post is completely invalid now.

 

From now on I'll list ALL the possible dangers to someone as they're searching for one of my caches, that way they'll be perfectly safe.

 

Suddenly ammo cans are creative, and these kinds of hides are not.

 

:D

wow...such rudeness....just because you don't like a post doesn't mean you should be rude. How about you practice a bit of what you preach?

 

"Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you can call them idiots. Show a little more respect when disagreeing." There's no need to call names."

 

Just replace the name calling with being rude....

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The conversation isn't about LPC's.......

Ooh, you got me there. I suppose my post is completely invalid now.

 

From now on I'll list ALL the possible dangers to someone as they're searching for one of my caches, that way they'll be perfectly safe.

 

Suddenly ammo cans are creative, and these kinds of hides are not.

 

:D

wow...such rudeness....just because you don't like a post doesn't mean you should be rude. How about you practice a bit of what you preach?

 

"Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you can call them idiots. Show a little more respect when disagreeing." There's no need to call names."

 

Just replace the name calling with being rude....

I didn't mean to sound rude. If you took it that way I can't help it. I was going for sarcastic.

 

The other poster meant to call people names.

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The conversation isn't about LPC's.......

Ooh, you got me there. I suppose my post is completely invalid now.

 

From now on I'll list ALL the possible dangers to someone as they're searching for one of my caches, that way they'll be perfectly safe.

 

Suddenly ammo cans are creative, and these kinds of hides are not.

 

:D

wow...such rudeness....just because you don't like a post doesn't mean you should be rude. How about you practice a bit of what you preach?

 

"Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you can call them idiots. Show a little more respect when disagreeing." There's no need to call names."

 

Just replace the name calling with being rude....

I didn't mean to sound rude. If you took it that way I can't help it. I was going for sarcastic.

 

The other poster meant to call people names.

 

Sarcasm...rude...potato...potatoe. I THOUGHT possibly this was a friendly conversation...obviously not!

 

Back to the topic of transformers (or "what do you call....") I call them a sorry place for a cache which can also be dangerous and is DEFINITELY a location which needs permission. You might not see it that way...but the sarcasm/rudeness sure detracts from the discussion.

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Back to the topic of transformers (or "what do you call....") I call them a sorry place for a cache which can also be dangerous and is DEFINITELY a location which needs permission. You might not see it that way
I went ahead and snipped all the stuff that wasn't on-topic so it didn't detract from the discussion.

 

You appear to have three issues with caches placed on these whatchamacallits:

  • Sorry place for a cache.
  • Which can also be dangerous
  • Location which needs permission.

I'd like to look at these three issues individually:

 

Sorry place for a cache.

 

I guess that you mean that this isn't an interesting location, same as a lightpole or any other mundane object. However, for me, caching is not about getting wowwed by every cache location. It's about getting off my couch, away from a stressful life, and finding some geocaches. As such, a magnetic key safe stuck to a whatchamacallit hits the spot nicely.

 

Which can also be dangerous

 

I believe that the danger inherent with touching one of these things is not sufficiently greater than the danger inherent to standing on the sidewalk that goes by these things. As such, the danger is not great enough to require anyone to change their behavior to avoid these things.

 

Location which needs permission.

 

I think that this would depend on the location. I would certainly not believe that explicit permission would be necessary to stand on a public sidewalk and place a magnetic key safe on one of these. I would imagine that explicit permission would be required to place the same container on the whatchamacallit in my neighbor's yard.

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Obviously you were oblivious to the links presented here which have shown that people do indeed get killed by these things, or you maybe you thought they were fictional accounts just made up to persuede you. The danger can indeed be on the OUTSIDE of the box, if the ground has failed for any reason.

 

If I knew ahead of time a cache was hidden on one of these, I wouldn't even go for it. However, once out looking, I will look for a cache on one. (Found a couple in fact.)

 

Until the powers that be, the insurance company, the power company, the legislature,etc, start requiring a solid fence around these, I feel your links are not completely accurate. There must be more to it.

 

In this society where laws force seat belts, helmets, lawn mowers with automatic shut offs, short cords on kitchen appliances, and a million other laws to "protect" us, if the danger was real there would be protective devices required. (such as fences or underground vaults.)

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Obviously you were oblivious to the links presented here which have shown that people do indeed get killed by these things, or you maybe you thought they were fictional accounts just made up to persuede you. The danger can indeed be on the OUTSIDE of the box, if the ground has failed for any reason.

 

If I knew ahead of time a cache was hidden on one of these, I wouldn't even go for it. However, once out looking, I will look for a cache on one. (Found a couple in fact.)

 

Until the powers that be, the insurance company, the power company, the legislature,etc, start requiring a solid fence around these, I feel your links are not completely accurate. There must be more to it.

 

In this society where laws force seat belts, helmets, lawn mowers with automatic shut offs, short cords on kitchen appliances, and a million other laws to "protect" us, if the danger was real there would be protective devices required. (such as fences or underground vaults.)

I'll tell you what...let's drop the dangerous route for a sec! How about permission? These aren't public property, the stores don't own these. These are the property of the power co. just like the mailboxes are the property of the USPS. If you really want to place one, how about trying to obtain permission? I'd guess that these would be archived if reported as being on one! (again, I could be wrong)

 

What about the customers who might watch you look for the cache on one of these? How about the store or other property owners? All it takes is one call and you'll be explaining your actions to the LEO (who might say have fun, or....)!

 

Sure, we have protection on many things in life...but not all! Sooner or later (likely sooner if cachers start playing on these a lot), you'll see fences and such, but I doubt the power co. even thought kids (let alone adults) would play on these...I could be wrong! Since fences cost a fortune, I'd guess they were trying to cut corners and the warning signs would likely slow any mitigations in the event of an "accident" (much like the "beware of dog" signs)! I recall being young (faintly), I don't recall ever wanting to play on one of these!!

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Not me. As a kid, I certainly would have hidden behind one of those during hide-n-seek, or sheilded my self behind one during cops-and-robbers or even climbed up on one and jumped off playing god only knows what.

 

BTW, I don't know for certain, but I bet those warning signs don't say 'Don't Touch'.

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I'll tell you what...let's drop the dangerous route for a sec! How about permission? These aren't public property, the stores don't own these. These are the property of the power co. just like the mailboxes are the property of the USPS. If you really want to place one, how about trying to obtain permission? I'd guess that these would be archived if reported as being on one! (again, I could be wrong)

 

My post you quoted had nothing to do with permission, only the safety side of it. If you want to talk about permission you won't get any argument from me.

 

I don't like hides on these, and I wouldn't hide one there on a dare. But my reasons have nothing to do with safety.

 

Since fences cost a fortune, I'd guess they were trying to cut corners and the warning signs would likely slow any mitigations in the event of an "accident"

 

If one person walking past one of these got killed by casually touching it, the state would pass laws requiring a fence or some other protection so quick your head would spin. A warning sign would just be laughed at in court.

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No, they don't. They say "adequate" permission. The word you left out is very important.

 

;)

Adequate means sufficient or acceptable. So you need sufficient or acceptable permission to hide your cache on private property. I agree with you...that left out word is VERY important.

Of course you can leave that word out (as it is merely a modifier) and say, "you need permission to hide your cache on private property." Wait a minute...that's the same thing! ;)

 

By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location. However, if we see a cache description that mentions ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing may be immediately archived. We also assume that your cache placement complies with all applicable laws. If an obvious legal issue is present, or is brought to our attention, your listing may be immediately archived.

 

I'm guilty of skimming myself sometimes. I skimmed over Johnnygeo's Geocaching Safety Blog and found a lot of good information. I bet if I actually read it, I'd get even more information! :wacko:

 

I've found three different names for these boxes.

Power Box

Transformer Cabinet

Conductor Termination Box

 

During my search for the name, I learned that these boxes can hold 120-480 volts and up to 3000 amps of electricity! I also learned that it takes about 10 milliamps to freeze your muscles (can't let go) and about 100 milliamps to kill you. A milliamp is 1/1000th of an amp.

 

Have fun finding your micros on the electrical boxes. You'll not see our name on the logs. :D

Edited by cowcreekgeeks
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No, they don't. They say "adequate" permission. The word you left out is very important.

 

;)

Adequate means sufficient or acceptable. So you need sufficient or acceptable permission to hide your cache on private property. I agree with you...that left out word is VERY important.

Of course you can leave that word out (as it is merely a modifier) and say, "you need permission to hide your cache on private property." Wait a minute...that's the same thing! :D

It's not the same thing. Whatever level of permission is 'adequate' exists in a wide continuum from 'no permission' to 'explicit written permission'. This has been discussed at leangth both in this thread and in many other threads. A read of this one and a quick search will bring up lots of information on the subject.
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I'll tell you what...let's drop the dangerous route for a sec! How about permission? These aren't public property, the stores don't own these. These are the property of the power co. just like the mailboxes are the property of the USPS. If you really want to place one, how about trying to obtain permission? I'd guess that these would be archived if reported as being on one! (again, I could be wrong)

 

My post you quoted had nothing to do with permission, only the safety side of it. If you want to talk about permission you won't get any argument from me.

 

I don't like hides on these, and I wouldn't hide one there on a dare. But my reasons have nothing to do with safety.

 

Since fences cost a fortune, I'd guess they were trying to cut corners and the warning signs would likely slow any mitigations in the event of an "accident"

 

If one person walking past one of these got killed by casually touching it, the state would pass laws requiring a fence or some other protection so quick your head would spin. A warning sign would just be laughed at in court.

 

Read further into this and you'll see many examples of people (mostly kids) being killed by these...have yet to see the "state" pass anything.

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I've found three different names for these boxes.

Power Box

Transformer Cabinet

Conductor Termination Box

 

During my search for the name, I learned that these boxes can hold 120-480 volts and up to 3000 amps of electricity! I also learned that it takes about 10 milliamps to freeze your muscles (can't let go) and about 100 milliamps to kill you. A milliamp is 1/1000th of an amp.

 

Have fun finding your micros on the electrical boxes. You'll not see our name on the logs. ;)

 

I've seen transformers receive 4160 volts at 200 amps, and that voltage is fatal, I witnessed an electrocution with a 4160 volt line.

 

Whenever the permission issue is brought up, the "defenders" go off on rambling tangents, and try to change the subject. These caches are popular because of the sheer number of transformer hides (usually 1/1s), and a good number of cachers who have low standards of entertainment. :D

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Read further into this and you'll see many examples of people (mostly kids) being killed by these...have yet to see the "state" pass anything.
Perhaps that is because the 'state' has determined that, even though accidents happen, the 'state' has probably determined that the chances of those accidents are very, very slim.
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Whenever the permission issue is brought up, the "defenders" go off on rambling tangents, and try to change the subject.
Actually, the 'defenders' have explained their take on the permission issue over and over and over in this thread and other current threads. Just because you don't agree on their position, doesn't mean that it hasn't been explained.
These caches are popular because of the sheer number of transformer hides (usually 1/1s), and a good number of cachers who have low standards of entertainment. ;)
Some people's standards are so 'pure' that they look down their noses at anyone who's having fun doing something that they don't enjoy.

 

Whatever.

Edited by sbell111
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Whenever the permission issue is brought up, the "defenders" go off on rambling tangents, and try to change the subject. These caches are popular because of the sheer number of transformer hides (usually 1/1s), and a good number of cachers who have low standards of entertainment. ;)

 

I don't think it's a matter of low standards of entertainment - it's more a matter of different standards of entertainment. A small child would rather play with an empty box than what is inside it a lot of times. Many times, simple things can be just as entertaining as the more complicated or difficult ones. I like a mix of hides - some LPC's, some 1/1's that are in places only I know about (or other geocachers), and some that require that several mile round trip hike in the woods. They're all good to me.

 

The only time I ever thought the low level ones were overkill were at MWGB this year, there was a WalMart with 3 LPC's in the parking lot... yes, THREE! They were spread out to meet the .1 mile restriction, because it was a large parking lot, but still!?!?!

 

But I still went and got them.... Guess I have low standards of entertainment... heh :D

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Read further into this and you'll see many examples of people (mostly kids) being killed by these...have yet to see the "state" pass anything.

 

I doubt you will see "many" examples of people being killed by these. (Though one person killed would be too many.) As long as they are allowed to be where they are and unprotected, you cannot convince me there is any real danger in the things themselves. There has to be much more to the story. Or our nanny state government would not pass up any chance to regulate anything. (yes even if it effects big business)

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powah121905.jpg

Interesting photo. The sticker on the right hand side of the box is obviously a DANGER sticker and the one on the left hand side clearly says NOTICE at the top.

 

If they are as dangerous (to the touch) as you seem to be saying, why don't we read about fried people in every day's newspaper?

 

Thankfully it doesn't happen every day but it only has to happen once to be a tragedy. Like in the case of 9-year old Willie Wagner.

uy1d7q12.jpg

 

In 2003 Con Edison had reports of 210 stray voltage shocks. One of these stray voltage shocks caused the death of Jodie Lane. Since then Con Edison has stepped up their safety efforts. Last year the number of reported stray voltage shocks is down to 46. This includes four pedestrians that were zapped by a metal service box near Times Square and a dog in Brooklyn that died from a shock received from a circuit that provided power to a street lamp.

 

Here's two in the same post. There are more, but these two work nicely! Actually, reading further, I see a few more examples and some stats!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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<SNIP>
Interesting photo. The sticker on the right hand side of the box is obviously a DANGER sticker and the one on the left hand side clearly says NOTICE at the top.
If they are as dangerous (to the touch) as you seem to be saying, why don't we read about fried people in every day's newspaper?
Thankfully it doesn't happen every day but it only has to happen once to be a tragedy. Like in the case of 9-year old Willie Wagner.

<SNIP>

 

In 2003 Con Edison had reports of 210 stray voltage shocks. One of these stray voltage shocks caused the death of Jodie Lane. Since then Con Edison has stepped up their safety efforts. Last year the number of reported stray voltage shocks is down to 46. This includes four pedestrians that were zapped by a metal service box near Times Square and a dog in Brooklyn that died from a shock received from a circuit that provided power to a street lamp.

Here's two in the same post. There are more, but these two work nicely! Actually, reading further, I see a few more examples and some stats!
What's your point? No one is arguing that accidents don't happen. The fact is, these accidents are extremely rare. So rare, in fact, that municipalities seem to be not interested in requiring additional safety measures.
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Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:11 PM EDT

 

 

 

Waterbury teen electrocuted in Southington

 

A 13-year old Crosby High School freshman from Waterbury was electrocuted at a Southington power substation Tuesday in what was to have been his new neighborhood. Junus Cecunjanin was found dead at the substation at 671 Johnson Ave. by two Connecticut Light & Power workers who had gone to investigate on a fault noise shortly after 5 p.m., according to Southington Police. A CL&P worker, who lives in the area, and a supervisor, who was driving by, had gone to investigate an "explosion" coming from the substation. The two workers found the boy on the ground. He was already dead, CL&P spokesman Mitch Gross said. "He was killed when he touched something," Gross said. It was unclear exactly what he touched and how he got into the substation. Gross said the substation is fenced in with barbed wire throughout. It has no trespassing signs all around. All gates and fences were secured, Gross said.

 

http://www.rep-am.com/articles/2007/10/10/...d5051008236.txt

 

One more child who did not get the message.

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Whenever the permission issue is brought up, the "defenders" go off on rambling tangents, and try to change the subject.
Actually, the 'defenders' have explained their take on the permission issue over and over and over in this thread and other current threads. Just because you don't agree on their position, doesn't mean that it hasn't been explained.
Just because you've explained your thoughts on the permission debate "over and over and over in this thread and other current threads" doesn't mean the explanation is valid.

 

Just because someone runs around shouting "The sky is green! The sky is green!" doesn't make it so.

 

:blink:

 

Edit: Stupid quotes...

Edited by Too Tall John
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I've found three different names for these boxes.

Power Box

Transformer Cabinet

Conductor Termination Box

 

Have fun finding your micros on the electrical boxes. You'll not see our name on the logs. :)

 

Well, if my research is correct, then there is an answer to the OP. Case Closed. :blink:

Let's find somethin' NEW to argue about! WOOHOO!!!

 

:P

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Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:11 PM EDT

 

Waterbury teen electrocuted in Southington

 

A 13-year old Crosby High School freshman from Waterbury was electrocuted at a Southington power substation Tuesday ...

http://www.rep-am.com/articles/2007/10/10/...d5051008236.txt

 

One more child who did not get the message.

This is a power substation:

istockphoto_489807_electric_power_substation.jpg

This thread has nothing to do with substations and no one has suggested that hiding a cache within the fence surrounding a substation is a good idea.

Edited by sbell111
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Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:11 PM EDT

 

Waterbury teen electrocuted in Southington

 

A 13-year old Crosby High School freshman from Waterbury was electrocuted at a Southington power substation Tuesday ...

http://www.rep-am.com/articles/2007/10/10/...d5051008236.txt

 

One more child who did not get the message.

This is a power substation:

istockphoto_489807_electric_power_substation.jpg

This thread has nothing to do with substations and no one has suggested that hiding a cache within the fence surrounding a substation is a good idea.

 

Barbed wire and fences mean nothing to some. Teaching folks that there is a potential for hazard and to keep away from electrical equipment is the point.

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Barbed wire and fences mean nothing to some. Teaching folks that there is a potential for hazard and to keep away from electrical equipment is the point.

Locked doors and alarm systems mean nothing to some. Should we stop using ammo cans because it might teach people to break into stores that sell ammo?

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<SNIP>
Interesting photo. The sticker on the right hand side of the box is obviously a DANGER sticker and the one on the left hand side clearly says NOTICE at the top.
If they are as dangerous (to the touch) as you seem to be saying, why don't we read about fried people in every day's newspaper?
Thankfully it doesn't happen every day but it only has to happen once to be a tragedy. Like in the case of 9-year old Willie Wagner.

<SNIP>

 

In 2003 Con Edison had reports of 210 stray voltage shocks. One of these stray voltage shocks caused the death of Jodie Lane. Since then Con Edison has stepped up their safety efforts. Last year the number of reported stray voltage shocks is down to 46. This includes four pedestrians that were zapped by a metal service box near Times Square and a dog in Brooklyn that died from a shock received from a circuit that provided power to a street lamp.

Here's two in the same post. There are more, but these two work nicely! Actually, reading further, I see a few more examples and some stats!
What's your point? No one is arguing that accidents don't happen. The fact is, these accidents are extremely rare. So rare, in fact, that municipalities seem to be not interested in requiring additional safety measures.

 

No so at all. It is clear that you aren't following the links to the article or even reading the post you are responding to or you would have seen the line in my post and in the article that I linked to that says "Con Edison has stepped up their safety efforts".

 

Municipalities are concerned with keeping people safe but it is balanced with the need to economically provide people with the life style that they are accustom to. Municipalities won't stop electricity delivery because people have been killed by it. Not many people want to live without electricity Municipalities can't expect Power Companies to completely safety proof their equipment and keep the price of electricity affordable.

 

It has become very clear to me by the posts in this and related threads that a majority of people underestimate the safety of transformer boxes and rate the cache difficulty far to low. If you are getting up close and personal with a transformer box you would at the very least protect yourself from potential shock with some electrical safety gloves.

 

prowear_insulating_gloves.jpg

 

Safety gear is clearly needed. Caches on transformer boxes need to have a difficulty rating of 5. You wouldn't rate a cache on the side of a mountain that needs climbing gear to be reached any less. Why would you rate a cache were deadly shock is possible any lower?

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Municipalities are concerned with keeping people safe but it is balanced with the need to economically provide people with the life style that they are accustom to. Municipalities won't stop electricity delivery because people have been killed by it. Not many people want to live without electricity Municipalities can't expect Power Companies to completely safety proof their equipment and keep the price of electricity affordable.
True, but if people were dropping like flies from touching these boxes, the government would certainly require additional safeguards.
It has become very clear to me by the posts in this and related threads that a majority of people underestimate the safety of transformer boxes and rate the cache difficulty far to low. If you are getting up close and personal with a transformer box you would at the very least protect yourself from potential shock with some electrical safety gloves.

 

<SNIP>

 

Safety gear is clearly needed. Caches on transformer boxes need to have a difficulty rating of 5. You wouldn't rate a cache on the side of a mountain that needs climbing gear to be reached any less. Why would you rate a cache were deadly shock is possible any lower?

The rating reflects the actual chance of danger, not the chance of possible danger. If the actual chance of electrical shock was unbelievably low, like it is with these whatchamacallits, then terrain rating should reflect that (perhaps with a terrain rating of 1.5 or so). Edited by sbell111
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There is always the age-old argument that "everything can be dangerous", blah blah blah. That is true. But I know that golfing during a lightning storm (or messing around with high voltage equipment) is more dangerous than walking my dog or reading a book.

 

Now, to the issue that of PERMISSION... Here are the results from a quick web search:

 

ORANGE AND ROCKLAND UTILITIES, INC.

ROCKLAND ELECTRIC COMPANY

PIKE COUNTY LIGHT & POWER COMPANY

 

18. Unauthorized Attachments to Poles.

The Company forbids any unauthorized attachments to its poles and equipment, such as

banners, signs, clothes lines, antennas, basketball hoops, lighting fixtures, etc. It

forbids the use of its poles for placards, political posters or any advertising

matter. The Company will remove any such unauthorized attachments without

notice and may prosecute such trespassing.

The Company forbids any work by contractors on its poles or any Company-owned equipment without specific written authorization.

 

TXU Electric Delivery Company

Attachments to Company Facilities

Company does not permit any attachments (such as wires, ropes, signs,

banners, or radio equipment) to Company facilities by others except when

authorized in writing by Company.

 

Beaches Energy Services

1460 Shetter Avenue

Jacksonville Beach, Florida 32250

 

Private Use of BES’s Facilities Prohibited

Except as permitted by contract with other entities, or by written permission for temporary public or quasi-public functions, no person or entity shall use BES’s poles, wires, towers, structures, or other facilities for the purpose of fastening, attaching, or supporting any equipment, wires, ropes, signs, banners, or other facilities. BES shall have the right to order such items removed, or to remove the items and bill the person or entity for the expense of such removal. BES shall not be liable for any damage to the items as a result of the removal.

1.17 Alterations or Additions to Consumer’

 

SUMTER ELECTRIC COOPERATIVE

 

Unauthorized Attachments

SECO prohibits any attachments to its poles or other equipment unless specifically authorized by agreement.

Such attachments include, but are not limited to fences, banners, signs, clothes lines, basketball backboards,

antennas, placards, political posters or any advertising matter. SECO will remove unauthorized

attachments without notice. Meter sockets and Customer's electric service risers are not to be attached to

SECO poles, except where permitted by SECO.

SECO forbids any work on or access to any of its facilities without authorization.

 

FLORIDA STATUTE 812.14 STATES "IT IS UNLAWFUL TO WILLFULLY ALTER, TAMPER WITH,

INJURE, OR KNOWINGLY SUFFER TO BE INJURED ANY METER, METER SEAL, PIPE CONDUIT,

WIRE, LINE, CABLE, TRANSFORMER...

 

PROGRESS ENERGY COMPANY (Florida)

 

Attachments to Poles Prohibited:

Customers and others are forbidden to use the Company's poles or other facilities for the purpose of fastening or supporting wires, signs, or things of any nature, or to locate any such things in such proximity to the Company's facilities as to cause, or to be likely to cause, interference with the Company's operations or a dangerous condition. The Company shall have the right to remove any unauthorized attachments without notice and without liability for damages arising from such removal.

 

Long Island Power Authority

 

UNAUTHORIZED ATTACHMENTS TO POLES

3.11.1 There is a law prohibiting, and LIPA forbids, the unauthorized attachment of any flags,

banners, signs, clotheslines, antennas, etc., to any of its poles, towers, vaults, surface mounted

equipment or manholes. It forbids the use of its poles for placards or other advertising matter.

LIPA will remove any such unauthorized

attachments without notice and may prosecute any such trespassing.

3.11.2 LIPA forbids any work by contractors on its poles, towers, vaults, surface mounted

equipment or manholes without specific authorization.

 

CLECO POWER LLC Pineville, LA

 

Foreign Attachments to Company Poles and Equipment:

Attachments to the Company poles or equipment such as conduits, banners, fire alarms, signs, traffic lights, power and/or telephone wires, and other attachments may be made only with approval of the Company. An attachment agreement with the Company will set forth any criteria. All attachments are to be made with permission and to the satisfaction of the Company. All such attachments must be made in accordance with the specifications of public authorities and NESC where required. Under no conditions shall television or radio antennas be allowed on Company poles.

 

FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY

 

5.4 Attachments to Poles. The use of the Company's poles, wires, towers, structures or other facilities for the purpose of fastening or supporting any radio or television aerials or other equipment, or any wires, ropes, signs, banners or other things, not necessary to the supplying by the Company of electric service to the community, or the locating of same in such proximity to the Company's property or facilities as to cause, or be likely to cause, interference with the supply of electric service, or a dangerous condition in connection therewith, is prohibited, and the Company shall have the right forthwith to remove same without notice. The violator of these rules is liable for any damage resulting therefrom.

 

Now, who STILL thinks they have permission, expessly, or implied? :)

Edited by geowizerd
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Safety gear is clearly needed. Caches on transformer boxes need to have a difficulty rating of 5. You wouldn't rate a cache on the side of a mountain that needs climbing gear to be reached any less. Why would you rate a cache were deadly shock is possible any lower?

The rating reflects the actual chance of danger, not the chance of possible danger. If the actual chance of electrical shock was unbelievably low, like it is with these whatchamacallits, then terrain rating should reflect that (perhaps with a terrain rating of 1.5 or so).

 

I'm not sure what rating system you are using but I am using the Geocache Rating System from http://www.clayjar.com/gcrs/ where a difficulty 5 cache requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to find cache.

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Safety gear is clearly needed. Caches on transformer boxes need to have a difficulty rating of 5. You wouldn't rate a cache on the side of a mountain that needs climbing gear to be reached any less. Why would you rate a cache were deadly shock is possible any lower?

The rating reflects the actual chance of danger, not the chance of possible danger. If the actual chance of electrical shock was unbelievably low, like it is with these whatchamacallits, then terrain rating should reflect that (perhaps with a terrain rating of 1.5 or so).

 

I'm not sure what rating system you are using but I am using the Geocache Rating System from http://www.clayjar.com/gcrs/ where a difficulty 5 cache requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to find cache.

 

I think he's saying it requires specialized safety equipment (cuz we know everyone who bumps into those things dies of electric shock) to obtain the cache.

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