The Perfect Cache

2.3k · February 16, 2004

What would you say if you could have a cache that would never degrade into junk items, and the logbook would never get full? And almost zero maintenance? Sounds pretty good, huh?

It's a Codeword cache.

Would anyone care to take a look at this picture? Although it is a giveaway of the type of cache I had in mind (this idea was recently rejected for approval from the Admins), I would like some feedback from the geocaching community. This is NOT a trashy "codeword written on a shoe or other piece of trash" cache. It is a geocaching note attached to the back of a small magnetic sheet, the other side is painted to match whatever surface it is attached to. Almost perfectly flat and certainly not noticeable to non-cachers. Would you hunt for a cache like this? Do you think it would be a challenge? Would you be upset to find out that it is a codeword-only (no trading) type of cache? Why or why not? Good or bad, your opinions are needed, please!

1.2k · February 16, 2004

I have hunted Codeword caches. I liked them. The ones I have hunted were not Codeword only, however; they were also tradable. Having it codeword only would not bother me either.

Sounds like a good idea.

38.2k · February 16, 2004

Since code word caches are no longer allowed under the guidelines, debating the issue is a waste of time. But personally, I like having to sign the log. The act of doing so gives some finality to the cache hunt. I've found a few codeword caches and just had the feeling that something was missing.

I also have a cache like the one in your photo (In fact I think you gave me the idea). Instead of the note, I have a strip of NG Adventure Paper glued to the back with room for 50 signatures, so there is no reason you can't include a log.

Edited February 16, 2004 by briansnat

1.8k · February 16, 2004

I hunted a cache that was hidden in a style like you mentioned, however there was a thin logbook attached to the other side. It could only hold a dozen names or so, but it fulfilled the logbook requirement for a cache.

I'd probably hunt a cache like this, but I'm not really a fan of "send me the password" or "email me with the color of the plastic chip that was in the micro" caches. I like to have a logbook to sign so I can see who was there before me, especially if I'm gunning for a FTF.

2.3k · February 16, 2004

Since code word caches are no longer allowed under the guidelines, debating the issue is a waste of time.

I've seen worse topics to debate...keep those opinions coming!

1.8k · February 16, 2004

Since code word caches are no longer allowed under the guidelines, debating the issue is a waste of time.

I've seen worse topics to debate...keep those opinions coming!

Other than the fact that you have a little more control over the placement of the cache, what's the difference between this and a "send me the date written on the plaque" type of virtual?

February 16, 2004

How about putting the coords to a traditional on the paper? A finder can go sign and trade at the traditional if they want.

3.1k · February 16, 2004

What would you say if you could have a cache that would never degrade into junk items, and the logbook would never get full? And almost zero maintenance? Sounds pretty good, huh?

Since it won't be allowed I wouldn't bother with pushing for it. I have placed Maxi-Micros caches which are larger containers with only a large logbook in them. It's big enough to place a TB. Since around here caches end up with junk in them shortly after placement why not?

February 16, 2004

Good cache type, bad cache type? It doesn't really matter to me. For me it's a question of motivation. Would the particular placement of the cache draw me out of the house?

If the location or challenge was interesting I would not hesitate to find this sort of cache. If they were slapped on every pole in a parking lot I wouldn't hunt them. And that could become a major problem with them.

I've been disappointed a number of times when I got to a cache only to find a moldy gladware cache with a log that couldn't be signed (but it HAD a log so I guess it's acceptable). At least this type of cache is neat and clean.

If codeword caches had their own 'type' on this site it would make it easy to filter them in or out.

Again, for me it's the placement not the type.

1.4k · February 16, 2004

Sounds like a great type of cache to me. Maybe add some space to just sign your name on the label.

3.1k · February 16, 2004

Good cache type, bad cache type? It doesn't really matter to me. For me it's a question of motivation. Would the particular placement of the cache draw me out of the house?

well, it seems they all get me out of the house

9.4k · February 16, 2004

Since code word caches are no longer allowed under the guidelines, debating the issue is a waste of time.

I've seen worse topics to debate...keep those opinions coming!

Other than the fact that you have a little more control over the placement of the cache, what's the difference between this and a "send me the date written on the plaque" type of virtual?

Good point, Cheesy.

Also, this leaves open a real "Needle in a haystack" type hunt. You could write a codeword on something the size of a needle and require the finders to bring a magnifying glass to read the codeword.

There is a limit on how small caches should be. That limit is how small you can make a logbook and have it still be practical to write on.

24.7k · February 16, 2004

This seems to be a cross between a traditional and a virtual. That's all I have to say about that.

7.2k · February 16, 2004

If I knew I had to email someone a code in order to log a cache and the cache is nothing but a slip of paper I would hunt it only if it was within the boundaries that we've set to keep clear. I wouldn't go out of my way for it.

On the other hand, the concept could be included into a complex multi with good effect. In fact, we've used a similiar technique in one of our caches.

It's got to have a logbook, IMHO.

February 17, 2004

I have to admit that this type of cache could be misused (slapping them on every stop sign etc.) But since I know that you personally wouldn't do something so stupid, I'm all for it. Super idea.

February 17, 2004

I am glad i came across this topic. I was thinking of placing a cache like this but on the mag strip i glued a small altods flash tin (1.5in -1in-1/4 thick) and theme the items to postage stamps only. I guess ill have to find some way to atache a log.

February 17, 2004

It would work if cache hiders would exercise a little common sense and not start sticking these things everywhere and anywhere but anybody who has been playing this game for any length of time and paying attention should know by now that this would not be the case. There is a history here. Codeword caches were banned for same reason that the strict virtual guidelines were instituted. People abused them! I recall something about some genius on a cross-county roadtrip who wrote code words on the lids of toilets at a series of rest areas and tried to get them approved as virtuals. There are no doubt many other examples that I have forgotten and even more that I am not aware of. I hope that the approvers will share a few of the more memorable ones. Please?

February 17, 2004

i've used codewords in some of my tough to get to caches just to verify that the person actually found it. But I always include a log to sign. I think signing the log to show that you've actually been there is the most rewarding part of finding the cache. It's like a dog marking his territory.

1.8k · February 17, 2004

I am glad i came across this topic. I was thinking of placing a cache like this but on the mag strip i glued a small altods flash tin (1.5in -1in-1/4 thick) and theme the items to postage stamps only. I guess ill have to find some way to atache a log.

You can fit a logbook in an Altoids tin. Just get a small notebook and trim the bottom half of it off.

You can also use Prime Suspect's instructions on how to make a mini pen to fit inside.

February 17, 2004

I hunted a codeword cache early in my caching career and found it to be one of the most memorable caches my small group has ever hunted. It was a refrigerator magnet stuck on an object that had been converted into a landmark in a VERY public area, (the town square). The day we were there was some kind of founders day celebration in progress and hundreds of people were standing and sitting all around and ON the object that our GPS was leading us to, and there was a band playing just across the street from the object. We took turns one at a time serendipitously searching the item where we knew the cache must located. All the while trying to appear inconspicuous, even waiting for people to move from where they were sitting so we could take their place to continue the search. Once while running my hand across areas of the object that could not be seen I noticed a guy watching me with the strangest look on his face. I suppose he thought I was some kind of weirdo getting my jollies rubbing the steel of the object. I suspended my search and moved discretely away. Once he left we resumed our search. It took us well over an hour to find the cache and when we did it was one of the most rewarding searches we ever had, the adrenalin level was high on that search because of all the other people around. You must realize that while we were searching we didn’t know what we were searching for, only that it was small and we would know it when we found it. And sure enough we did. Perhaps now with more experience I would have waited until the people left to find this cache, but at the time my desire to find the cache outweighed common sense. We must have been successful at being inconspicuous as the cache did not go missing and has been found many times since we logged it. The area was so open that a traditional cache would have been impossible even a mini Altoids tin would stick out like a sore thumb on this object. However the flat refrigerator magnet stuck where it was on the object was perfect. Unless you got in exactly the right position you would never see it. There was another similar cache done by the hider that took me three trips to find, I enjoyed both of these hunts immensely and wish there were more thought out like them. I think codeword caches should be allowed under guidelines similar to those for virtuals. The approvers could review each one on a case by case basis as they do virtuals now.

Edited February 17, 2004 by runner_one

February 17, 2004

I think that would be cool to give coordinates for an offset cache.

Personally, I like to sign the log book and look at other cachers' logs . . . so, I'm all for having a log for every cache.

That is my opinion . . . such as it is.

Happy caching and stuff!

February 17, 2004

Even if the idea was rejected -- why not put out a few of these as the intermediate stages of a multi-stage cache, with a standard ammo can as the final stage.

By the way, I have seen even better items for intermediate stages of multis -- including pieces of bark with coordinates on the back, attached to a tree with velcro.

2.3k · February 17, 2004

I agree with the statement that these codeword types of micros should be reviewed on a case by case basis. I submitted it for review, and it was turned down. Now, it's not at all trashy, or an eyesore. The matching color on the backside would make for a good hunt, I think. I don't want to use it for a multi. I want this to be the cache itself. I was planning on placing these in highly visible places where a traditional, even an Altoids tin, would be too big. A different type of cache, to be sure. Seems like stepping outside of the mainstream is not welcomed. Oh well, I will find a different spot and slap up yet another exciting Altoids tin for cachers to find. Yea, woohoo......

Edited February 17, 2004 by TEAM 360

1.3k · February 17, 2004

I have to say it's a good start on an idea. I've considered doing something similar, but with the NG adventure paper on the back for a log. I don't like the idea of having to email a codeword for credit. If there is no log book to sign there is no verification that they were there.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you. Let's say that a less than upstanding cacher finds this and logs a find. He takes that code word and gives it out to everyone he knows and you suddenly have a flood of find logs for this cache. You suspect that something isn't quite right but you have no way to prove wrong doing since there is no log to sign. You can delete the logs you believe to be false but with just your word against theirs how do you prove that they weren't really there.

February 17, 2004

Hunted these 'cause the codewords were a part of the local Cach-U-Nuts game.

It would be trivial to convert your proposal into a stupid trad, by giving coords of an already existing cache. At a later point, you may even remove the existing trad component, and modify the magnetic cache description to the effect that the final part is no longer available, and to log a find, please just e-mail the codeword.

February 17, 2004

i would love to do a cache like this.

February 17, 2004

CO Admin,

could you expand please? What didn't seem to be bright for you?

Discussing potential loopholes in the cache approval system because cachers will exploit them too often?

Or discussing potential loopholes in the cache approval system because the approvers will close them?

I don't think either is a problem.

Most new caches can be approved as is, and a lot of new submissions which can't sneak in anyways.

And closing all loopholes may not be possible without a total breakdown of trust between the approvers, the higher-up TPTBs, and the rank and file cachers.

Even the IRS can't do it, why would you even want to do it?

1.4k · February 17, 2004

I have a cache very similar to what you are proposing. Rather than just a code word, it leads you to a real cache. Just make it a multi and everyone is happy.

I don't care about the trading, but I do care about the logbook. I enjoy reading it and signing it. Without that, it's a virtual to me.

Though I did find one of these like you're talking about in vegas that was grandfathered in. I found that one interesting because it was in the middle of frickin' everything and noone but me knew

But then... my other cache is like that. I prefer a logbook.

February 17, 2004

I just had a cache disapproved because the approver said it was too much like a "codeword" cache, and it did not originally have a logbook. It was more than just a codeword, though. The second stage micro had instructions for certain things that had to be done.

Since it was disapproved, I have already changed it. I put a logbook in the second stage micro. It's called "The Dead Letter."

February 17, 2004

I've been disappointed a number of times when I got to a cache only to find a moldy gladware cache with a log that couldn't be signed (but it HAD a log so I guess it's acceptable). At least this type of cache is neat and clean.

To start off. But I've seen codeword caches and multicache stages become wet, faded and difficult to read.

In my experience codeword caches have on occasion been used in the mistaken belief that they won't require upkeep, but every sort of cache requires maintenance. Thinking otherwise is just foolish.

February 17, 2004

It would be trivial to convert your proposal into a stupid trad, by giving coords of an already existing cache. At a later point, you may even remove the existing trad component, and modify the magnetic cache description to the effect that the final part is no longer available, and to log a find, please just e-mail the codeword.

In a sport that requires ethical behavior by the participants, encouraging ideas that circumvent the approval process seems ... unwise.

How about we work within the guidelines of this site, or take our ideas that don't to one of the other sites with different standards?

9.1k · February 17, 2004

Though I did find one of these like you're talking about in vegas that was grandfathered in. I found that one interesting because it was in the middle of frickin' everything and noone but me knew

Trippy, I know the cache you're speaking about. Way too well. I wasted 45 minutes looking like an idiot (more so than usual) on the Las Vegas strip, looking for a codeword on a sign. It turns out that the sign had been removed. The owner, who lives many states away from his vacation cache, hadn't noticed this fact. He later arranged for the codeword sticker to be placed on a different sign. I am glad you had a better time at this cache than I did.

To say that codeword or virtual caches require no maintenance flies in the face of my experience at this cache.

6.5k · February 17, 2004

What would you say if you could have a cache that would never degrade into junk items, and the logbook would never get full? And almost zero maintenance? Sounds pretty good, huh?

It's a Codeword cache.

<snip>Would you hunt for a cache like this? Do you think it would be a challenge? Would you be upset to find out that it is a codeword-only (no trading) type of cache? Why or why not? Good or bad, your opinions are needed, please! <snip>

Just like any other category of cache I ask-

Does it lead me somewhere interesting? Somewhere I might not go if not for this activity? Is there a nice view, a mental or physical challange involved in finding this cache? I don't get the 'purity' of the game argument. I'll hunt virts, LC, multis as long as I have something to find at the end. I think that this cache has merits, but I also like to read other entries in the logbooks. What matters least to me are the trade trinkets. Just my $.02. But as someone already poointed out in another thread:

Everyone plays the game differently. Deal with it.

Edited February 17, 2004 by wimseyguy

February 18, 2004

How about we work within the guidelines of this site, or take our ideas that don't to one of the other sites with different standards?

Working within the guidelines still leaves room for some stretching of the guidelines. I never suggested lying; that would indeed be rather unethical. Using grey areas and loopholes is different.

What you say is, essentially, "if you are interested in tax havens, you must leave the U.S. for Bahamas; and if you exceed speed limit, you should be deported to Germany."

Or, in more familiar terms, if you tell your wife stories to skip the chores and enjoy your geocaching trip, you must divorce and re-marry at once.

That's an empty rhetoric, of course. So is yours "love gc.rules or leave the gc.community".

2.3k · February 18, 2004

From the Geocaching.com website itself, concerning cache ideas that have been turned down:

"If your cache has been archived and you wish to appeal the decision, first contact the approver and explain why you feel your cache meets the guidelines. Exceptions may sometimes be made, depending on the nature of a cache. If you have a novel type of cache that “pushes the envelope” to some degree, then it is best to contact your local approver and/or Geocaching.com before placing and reporting it on the Geocaching.com web site. The guidelines should address most situations, but Groundspeak administrators and approvers are always interested in new ideas. If, after exchanging emails with the approver, you still feel your cache has been misjudged, feel free to post a message in the General Forums to see what the geocaching community thinks. If the majority believes that it should be posted, then Groundspeak administrators and approvers may review the listing and your cache may be unarchived."

So, to be more specific at this point, does the majority believe this type of cache should be approved? (the Admins have now disabled polls, so I am unable to post one to make it easier to vote on this)

2.3k · February 18, 2004

To say that codeword or virtual caches require no maintenance flies in the face of my experience at this cache.

I said they required little to zero maintenance, not "no maintenance at all". The only time maintenance would be required is if the cache went missing. In order to prevent weather damage, they would be placed in a sheltered area (overhang above it, underneath a large enough item that would keep it dry).

1.3k · February 18, 2004

So, to be more specific at this point, does the majority believe this type of cache should be approved? (the Admins have now disabled polls, so I am unable to post one to make it easier to vote on this)

I don't. Just put the coordinates on it to an offset container.

southdeltan

February 18, 2004

Instead of your "codeword" sheet, glue a sheet of tyvek to the back of the magnet sheet for use as a "log book" and tell cachers to bring their own pen. You can cut the tyvek out of Fedex envelope if you happen to find any out and about... It isn't 100% waterproof, but it holds ink even after it gets wet.

February 18, 2004

I have no idea how to put a picture into this forum, would some one give me a step by step?

From my computer to this page.

Here is a hyperlink to my shabby homepage with a pic for this topic.

I took the idea of the writer and made it GEO legal for placement hope everyone likes it

My AOL Homepage

February 18, 2004

What you say is, essentially, "if you are interested in tax havens, you must leave the U.S. for Bahamas; and if you exceed speed limit, you should be deported to Germany."

No, I'm saying that if you want to drive 75 mph, do it on the freeways of Montana and not in downtown Chicago, to continue your 'analogy'. You can still drive in Chicago all you want; just not at those speeds.

And if you want to hide a particular type of cache and list it on someone else's site, don't hide a different type planning to later change it to a form you know isn't acceptable there. List any sort of 'perfect' ideas you want where it's appropriate to do so. But it isn't 'perfect' if you have to lie in order to get a listing.

February 18, 2004

Instead of your "codeword" sheet, glue a sheet of tyvek to the back of the magnet sheet for use as a "log book" and tell cachers to bring their own pen. You can cut the tyvek out of Fedex envelope if you happen to find any out and about... It isn't 100% waterproof, but it holds ink even after it gets wet.

Yikes! It sounds like you have one of these caches ready to go in our area. Now I'll know what to look for. <_<

--RuffRidr

February 18, 2004

By my totally unscientific count, it is about 12 to 8 against the idea with 8 neutral comments.

Actually I vote no also, so it's 13 to 8 against.

As was pointed out before, I don't see the difference between this type of cache and a "tell me what color rock is at this location" cache. It's a virtual cache except you placed it, rather than just finding it there already.

Edited February 18, 2004 by FullOn

9.4k · February 18, 2004

It's a virtual cache except you placed it, rather than just finding it there already.

Exactly, which is why I don't like it. Too close to a virtual, it would blur the line too much.

1.1k · February 18, 2004

I think this would be a great idea for a cache, but since the site seems to demand log books lately, just have them sign the sheet that you have pictured. Is that the reaosn why it was denied, because it didn't have a log book?

Question to admins...is this type of cache acceptible if there was a way of signing a log? Ie, could you still make the user email a codeword to verify the find AND have them sign the log?

Sounds like there is a lot of support for this type of cache, so I see no reason why it shouldn't be approved (except for the log book requirement).

Your cache in Tortilla Flats was one of the best/original containers I ever saw...I would like to see some more original ones from you or others next time I am down there in the summer.

February 18, 2004

Yikes! It sounds like you have one of these caches ready to go in our area.

Not yet, but I'm always thinking... <_<

1.5k · February 26, 2004

Question to admins...is this type of cache acceptible if there was a way of signing a log? Ie, could you still make the user email a codeword to verify the find AND have them sign the log?

This very issue was discussed on at least one occasion months ago. The general opinion was that it was redundantly redundant to sign the log then follow up with a codeword e-mail.

I'm mixed on them personally. It is more enjoyable to sign a log, but there are occasions when something like this work so well in the environment they are placed in. As far as siding, I wouldn't want to see too many of these because it would degrade Geocaching overall. But limited situations I think they're ok.

The Perfect Cache

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