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There are only so many times you can knock somebody down before they just refuse to get up again.

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Ok, it seems that the majority do not want the R & J show to happen. So we will refuse to even talk to them, you had better hope they dont find the wrong person.


We had the same backbiting and whinges with the Inside Out programme.


There has also been resistance by some to gain blanket approval from land owners saying something along the lines of "better keep it quiet".


There are those who just don't want to follow the guidelines.


There are those who do not support "find a number of caches before you plant some" (you should see some of the utter rubbish we have dealt with and the hours this takes in approval).


There are those who question, rightly or wrongly, if we are in a position to represent the cachers of the UK.


We have been called "Tim & June Hitler", "The iron fist in the silk glove", we have been asked how we can sleep at nights because we archived a cache which was clearly out of order during the Mod Ant's rumpus. etc. etc.


We answer about 30 emails a day from cachers. To those who have emailed us, please do not feel this is a complaint, we are happy to help anybody, but collectively with all the cr*p ...


Clearly, we do not have the support of the majority.


Frankly, June and I have just about had enough. From here on we will just do the minimum. We will moderate the forum, we will approve caches which meet the guidelines and archive those which don't. Up until now we have spent hours on helping cachers make their caches meet the guidelines so they can be approved.


There is one exception to the above. Because of the major effort that "The Bramblers" have put in, we will continue to finish the job with Hampshire County Council. The Bramblers are two of the nicest people we have had the pleasure to meet and I would not like them to suffer the dissapointment.


This subject is not up for discussion, we have just reached the end of out tether.


Happy caching everyone.

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I know this won't change your mind but perhaps some of the issues mentioned could have been put to the vote. It seems that contrary opinions seem to shout loudest. If the items mentioned were put to a vote our votes would be:


R&J Show:

We would vote yes to talking to them and would be very happy for T&J to represent us in dealing worth the media.


blanket approval from land owners:

We thought this was a great proactive move on your part. We vote yes to any moves made.


There are those who do not support "find a number of caches before you plant some"

We do, and from what I remember the Majority seemed to.


There are those who question, rightly or wrongly, if we are in a position to represent the cachers of the UK.

As far as I can see you were voted into a position of moderators/approvers by the UK forum - I recon you have some legitimacy in representing us (and if we voted on it - I recon you would win).


Clearly, we do not have the support of the majorityYou have ours!


maybe a few more poles would go a long way to establishing what the majority actually want.




Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

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...and I think for you to say that you don't is severely mistaken. People may disagree with what you say, but that doesn't mean they don't support you.


We respect your decisions, although respecting this one is going to be very difficult indeed.


At a time when geocaching in the UK is growing rapidly and firm guidance is needed more than ever, the loss of your faith in this community is a crashing blow.

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As you well know we are new to this game, but we have appreciated all that you have been doing for the sport and Us cachers.


You have our full backing to the R&J thing as to the other issues I'm too new and have not read the threads.


But many a respected cacher has replied with their backing, so count us in too.


It's a real shame that things have come to a head like this. icon_frown.gificon_frown.gificon_frown.gificon_frown.gificon_frown.gificon_frown.gif


Kids Caches and Mayhem what a day in the celtic tribal city.

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The fact that you had/have our complete support is no surprise.


The fact that everyone has their limits in any voluntary activity isn't either. You've taken considerable c**p over recent months and your frustration is understandable.


Sometimes it takes a crisis to find a great leader. We sincerely hope that we don't face a crisis. icon_frown.gif



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I can't say I blame Tim and June for stepping back but like the others who have replied on this topic I deeply regret that they have made this decision and hope that in time they will reconsider. For what they have done I will say a most sincere thank you. I have some slight idea of the effort they have been putting in as they questioned the wisdom of one of my virtual caches and as a result it was much improved - all done most efficiently and politely.

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You have tyhe support of Dan and Pid there too Tim and June.


You are both magnificent at what you do and I do not believe for a minute that anyone would do the job any better.


The bare minimum from you would be enough for us to survive but that little bit extra you give so often will be surely missed by everyone and your piece of mind too.


Will miss your efforts dearly.






Did I hear a rustling over there Dan? Nope its just young Dean!



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You've been great ambassadors for the sport and have put in many, many hours of work beyond the call of duty, and I'd like to add my thanks to the chorus of voices above. I guess at times your role must have been a bit like herding cats. Keep having fun finding those caches (that's what it's all about, after all) and if you decide to step back into the fray, you'll certainly have my support!

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I am agreement with Tim & June. The hobby/pastime will die if "new blood" is not introduced. TV is one way of achieving this. There is a downside (trashed caches) but there is NO evidence that this has happened since the "Inside out" programme. In fact there has been positive side; there has been a big increase in the number of people who recognise the activity and joined the "search"!


This should be an activity open to all.





All our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike-and yet it is the most precious thing we have - Albert Einstein

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...and I'm with him again on this.


People may disagree with what you say, but that doesn't mean they don't support you.


I've not agreed with everything you've done to promote the sport but I know you've always acted in good faith and with integrity.


On that basis, you have my full support (but may I reserve the right do disagree with you from time to time? icon_wink.gif )


Name-calling and abuse, in these forums or in e-mail is totally unacceptable. Neither Moderators/Approvers nor forum readers should have to put up with such disrespect for others.



There's no such thing as a free lunchbox!

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I have nothing but admiration for the work that T&J have done. I have found very little evidence in public (ie on here) that anyone else doesn't consider them great ambassadors of the sport. I suspect that most of the negative stuff hurled their way has been done via email, and I utterly condemn such actions.


I'm with Wronskian in saying that I have always respected their decisions, and that I will respect this one too, but find it hard.


May I make a suggestion? Perhaps the one thing that they *could* consider doing in the future is being a central contact point/representative for us in the business about land access. As they have said, they will carry on with the Hampshire CC thing, and I think it wise not to try starting any new negotiations from our end. To this extent I agree with T&J's pulling out of things. However, I think it might be wise to have someone on hand if and only if any of the other big land managers approach us.


Since T&J have done so much already, they would be in the best position to handle the approach. In other words, T&J, we may need you occasionally to be *reactive* as opposed to what you are now giving up on which was basically *proactive*.


How do the rest of you feel about this?

And how do T&J feel about this?


No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

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Originally posted by Subarite:


This should be an activity open to all.



It *IS* an activity that is open to all and no-one is suggesting that it shouldn't be. But there is a world of difference between 'Not turning anyone away' and 'Inviting everybody to turn up'


No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

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In order to oil the wheels of diplomacy with the TV company, maybe we should be saying to them something like: 'Thankyou for considering doing a spot on geocaching, and many thanks for asking for volunteers from our forum. After a lot of discussion we feel that we would be doing your company a disservice if we were to try to represent caching on national TV when the sport is so young in this country. It would probably be a better idea if you approached the much-more-experienced organisers and administrators of the sport who are over in the States. One of the co-inventors of the game appeared on the BBC World service only a couple of weeks ago and did a far better job of explaining the sport than any of us here would be able to do.


Something like that means we are not refusing to talk to the TV guys, and are actually giving them positive help, while at the same time politely declining our own involvement. This is in no way dishonourable.




No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

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My support all the way. Thanx for all the work you have both done recently, thankyou for putting up with the c*ap (starred that myself icon_wink.gif ) and thanks for buying myself and Pid a lovely pub dinner when we visited for filming icon_smile.gif. I have so much respect for you 2 as i'm sure many many others do too.


Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?! badgerslayer.gif


Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

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So there go another two fine geocachers off into the distance. When are we going to realise that what we are doing is getting rid of the old hands. You know the guys and Gals that are geocaching through & through. Can we afford to do this? In my opinion NO. I know that forums can be a contentious place but we have to think the affect our posts will have on other people. If you feel like the moderators are not doing things the way you want then by all means say so. But there are ways of saying it that do not cause offence. If we carry on like this the sport will end up killing itself off. Yeh there will still be geocaching but there will be no Direction to it and no organisation to it either. OK you might say it does not need it. But in my opinion it does Not strict control but a general direction in the way forward. Tim and June have worked unstintlingly for geocaching in the UK. OK I am sure that a few descions that where made where not the best but as the old saying goes "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone". Well I for one dropped my stone ages ago.


Tim & June please reconsider and give us another chance. Why should the majority of geocachers loose your services. Remember there are loads of cachers that never post to these forums or ours for that matter.


Mark (TheCat)



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I agree with the majority of what is written above and wholeheartedly support Tim & June.


I also think that all this rumpus about Richard & Judy is getting far too serious. If the potential for geocaching to grow expotentially as a result of one TV prog exists you can be sure that the brand managers at Garmin and Magellen would be targetting this possible increase in potential market and they aren't! We just need a nice, articulate couple or family to have a chat on the sofa with R&J about their hobby - it's not rocket science!


Maybe we need to go the way of organisations such as the All Wheel Drive Club with local reps, management committees etc to fly our flag and handle the PR on our hobby - but I think at present we're too much in the infancy to support such a move - but it is something that's likely to be necessary in the future - whether we like it or not.


Very sad to see Tim and June feeling so demoralised - I'd do anything I can to get you to stay but maybe a weekend of getting out their and just enjoying the actual geocaching is called for! All the best . . .


Don't you think that sooner or later someone will notice that its a mobile phone not a GPS your using???

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I have read these threads over the last few days and here are some comments that perhaps we should all consider.


1. Look at the UK stats on Teasels page.........notice the increase from after the 'Inside Out' program.


There is plenty of new blood coming in.


2. It seems to me that the UK arm of Geocaching is not so much being run, as much as coping.


Perhaps it is time to create a proper committee to oversee all aspects in the UK.


There are plenty of people in here that care so much that they are putting themselves on the line in here. Don't do that. Lets all elect a committee to do the everyday work.


3. Throwing Bricks Out Of Pram - A few people seem to have done that already (T&J included) - Just because people disagree with your point of view, that is no reason to do this.


Healthy discussion is good and should continue, this is what democracy is all about. But decision making needs to be organised - See 2 above.


4. This is not about the media or any other subject, it's about Geocaching in the UK, and if we don't get our act together we will just have a big punch up and not talk to each other ever again.


5. So I Propose that we start a series of elections to elect a committee to run Geocaching in the UK.


Their first job will be to set out the guidelines for all aspects of the sport, including the rules to run their own committee.



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Originally posted by washboy:

Name-calling and abuse, in these forums or in e-mail is totally unacceptable. Neither Moderators/Approvers nor forum readers should have to put up with such disrespect for others.



It may be unacceptable, but it sure makes for a better read than any of these "pity parties". Carry on.

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Sorry, I don't think we should even think about elections and committees at this stage of the game. We are far too disparate a group for it to work. What we need is good moderators like we already have (and Tim & June were effectively elected by this forum) AND moderation and common sense from the users - that posting from Cholo doesn't help at all!

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No rhetoric, it should not be needed.


Tim & June, IMVHO, have always appeared to strive towards promoting all the positive aspects of the sport.


Their constant insistence that the, so sensible, general guidelines adoptoed by GC.com are observed, as is pertinent to the UK.


Their obvious regard/love for the Great British countryside and the preservation of same, and the way of life it supports.


Their great sense of humour v a v bears and avatar.


Their sensible and, to me at least, non-partisan moderation.


They should not be treated in the way they appear to have been, no one should, but they also are a resource the community surely cannot afford to be without.


Dave (hoping to sound totally undodgyish)




I'm NOT lost, I know exactly where I am, I'm here!

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Originally posted by jstead:

We are far too disparate a group for it to work.


It is worth pointing out that the people who use these forums are not representative of all UK geocachers, we just happen to be the largest group of UK geocachers around, hence why the TV company came here.


If you compare the general UK stats to these forums you'll see that regular posters here are fairly small in number, and a lot more people just cache without ever posting to the forums. It is also worth remembering that there are also cachers who cache but don't log finds on the site.


As Jeremy Irish said in his posting to the Knives thread refered to earlier, Geocaching.com primarily acts as a listing service, and operates policies over which caches it lists. As an additional service it provides forums for discussions. As was said on that thread there is absolutely nothing that Geocaching.com can do to stop someone creating a cache that breaks guidelines, all that can happen is when it is found out it will be archived. But then it could be listed elsewhere on the internet, as a number of caches that were considered to break Geocaching.com guidelines have been and still are.


A UK Geocaching society will just be adding another group to all of this, and a whole load more admin. All the same discussions will go on in the society, and it will still be unrepresentative because not everybody will join the society who goes Geocaching, in much the same way that not everybody posts to the forums and so on. In fact I expect it will probably be much the same people who post here who would join such a society, so really I don't see the point!


Finally We'd just like to publicly express our support for Tim and June. We know they have done an awful lot, and have gone far beyond what the job description for the role of UK admin and moderator said and we very much appreciate all they have done. However we also know that they have ended up spending a lot of time they should have been spending elsewhere handling Geocaching related matters (the Mod Ant incident springs to mind). Whilst Tim and Junes work gives them the flexibility to do thinks like that, I don't believe that they should have to, and can fully understand and support their decision to pull back and just do the job they were elected to do.





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Any group, as it grows, will reach a point where it either organizes itself, or has organization thrust upon it.


Having organization "thrust upon" your group by third parties is, in general, a bad thing. It's the sort of organization that generally translates to: "We've just discovered what you do, and don't want you doing it. Especially not on our land/near our stones/under our trees" (delete as appropriate).


The problem is, as events of the last few months have shown, we're not really geared up to organize ourselves. We work with "guidelines" rather than rules. We in-fight over fundamental issues like publicity, and many of us fear (maybe without foundation) that the future of caching might not be sustainable as it attracts *too* wide an audience. It's no wonder that T+J are feeling the strain!


The number of cachers in the UK has already doubled since the start of the year. If that rate of increase is anything to go by, then things are going to escalate fast.


I know some people might take what Woodsmoke says with a dose of skepticism, since he's a relative newcomer to the game... but what he's proposing makes a lot of sense to me. One of my other hobbies involves membership of a rather obscure horticultural society (concerned with the preservation/cultivation of carnivorous bogplants!). It's quite a obscure niche to be interested in, and only has something like 500 members - but, as a registered charity, requires a certain degree of accountability, so we have a full committee structure... and I have to say that it runs *extremely* smoothly. The society has a stated position on contentious issues, published rules, PR officers who are dedicated to dealing with the media - all kinds of things that UK geocaching community could really do with right about now.


My point is, it's bad - VERY bad - to see that T+J have been driven to making this posting... but we really should have seen it coming. The way that contentious issues have been stacking up over the last few months I guess T+J must have been driven up the wall with exasperation and frustration - especially when the only thing they're empowered to "enforce" in our name is guidelines, not rules.


IMHO, some kind of leadership committee for uk geocaching is a good idea. I would also hope that T+J would be a part of that committee - I fear that the current situation has been brought about by the fact that we, as a community, have put a significant burdon onto T+J, but at the same time, we've never really invested with them the true authority or support network to do the job properly.


...just my 2p worth.


John TGS.

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Originally posted by Tim & June:


_Clearly, we do not have the support of the majority._




I disagree too. People who disagree usually shout louder than those who agree. For everyone who grumbles about something on the forums, there are people out there happily caching without knowing how much work you have put in to this community for them.


They can't thankyou for helping things more more smoothly in the UK, but we can. Thankyou Tim & June.


I was wary about the R&J show, but after reading discussions, would be happy for you two to be our spokespeople. If anyone could do it well, you two could.




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Although I think it would be lovely to stay small, inevitably we are going to grow and therefore I wholeheartedly agree with Woodsmoke and John TGS that we need a committee to oversee the public face of Geocaching in the UK and a body that we can all join to show our support for them. There will inevitably be a whole army who object and refuse to join (a very similar thing happened in the hang-gliding world some years ago) but after a period of time the numbers involved in the hobby who are members of the body will far exceed the number who refuse to be part of it. Nobody likes legislation and bureauocracy (except perhaps the French) but it is inevitable in a developing society. Think how the early car drivers felt!!!!




Don't you think that sooner or later someone will notice that its a mobile phone not a GPS your using???

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Yep along with everyone else who has posted here - I maybe a relative newcomer but from what I read, what I have seen and from the telephone conversation we had a couple of weeks ago, I can certainly recognise a good moderator and nice guy when I see one - You have our support Tim and June.

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Originally posted by Tim & June:

Frankly, June and I have just about had enough.


I have seen the problems you are going through elsewhere. It is VERY frustrating, and pushes the blood pressure up needlessly.


Can I offer the following suggestions:


1) have a couple of drinks (or more), and turn of the PC's a couple of hours early tonight!


2) Take a week or two off: make it clear to everyone that you will be "out of circulation" for that time... let the other moderators handle any issues. After that, I'm sure that you will have got rid of much of the frustrations, and will feel FAR more relaxed.


3) go and plant a 5/5 for Dan & Pid to do in the dark!!!! We ALL need a good laugh! Could even make good TV icon_smile.gif




**THANK YOU** T&J for all you do!





Noone in their right mind would place a cache THERE....

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Originally posted by Team Blitz:

Originally posted by Tim & June:

Frankly, June and I have just about had enough.


1) have a couple of drinks (or more), and turn of the PC's a couple of hours early tonight!



Tempting to set a cache for T&J with simply a couple of miniatures in it, just so's it can be archived! (in a good cause, of course! icon_biggrin.gif) Obviously I'll have to just email all the clues to T&J and not list them on the site: someone will be bound to get there first!


Seriously though, good idea to step back and take a good deep breath. You guys clearly need it, as any of us would in your position. I'm sure the other moderators can keep us in check for a coupla weeeks.

Might I suggest a trip to Old Winchester Hill in the Meon Valley one afternoon? If you want a breath of fresh air, that's where you'll get bucket loads and there's not a cache anywhere nearby!


T&J, please come back, but above all come back refreshed! icon_biggrin.gif



Neutiquam erro.

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I too would like to add my support. I have served on a number of social club committees and know what a bloody thankless task that can be and I suspect a moderator of the UK geocaching scene is worse than that.


I hope the two of you enjoy what break you take, if anyone deserves some r&r in return for their input it is certainly you.


And just for the record I'm in favour of a commitee, although whether we would ever get a concensus as to who should serve on it is a totally different matter.


Finding your caches - Losing my marbles.

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Originally posted by Groover:

I read the UK forum regularly, and I'm amazed anyone wants to take part in it because the amount of whining that goes on is unbelievable. icon_frown.gif


Thanks to Tim and June for their hard work! icon_biggrin.gif


Groover (Brit in America)


Well said that person - as newcomers to the game I couldn't agree more with your sentiments.


T&J have done a lot of fantastic work in an effort to promote UK Geocaching in a responsible manner as far as I can tell & they have my teams support also. Well done T&J, it's a shame it has come to this - your input & advice will be missed by many.


motley. adj. varied in appearance or character.

crew. n. group of people.

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Originally posted by Penguin Hunters:

After reading this thread i just had to reply. I feel that GCUK has lost a great pair of people! T&J were really helpful during a period when third parties were complaining about the location of our cache.


T&J you certainly have our support!! :-)


Penguin Hunters


I think you mean Geocaching.com GC:UK is a different site.


Mark (TheCat)



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When we posted this topic, we had decided to take the next day (yesterday) off. So we booked a channel crossing for a day in france shopping and eating. We had to get our priorities right, and were running out of wine icon_smile.gif


We left at 6:00am, returned a little before midnight, and didn't even check email.


When we checked this morning we were very surprised, (to say the least) to find 43 emails from cachers offering their support, and many more on the forum. Then we found the poll (which seems to have gone west now). We are very humbled by all the support we have seen and really want to thank everybody so much.


We also apologise for not realising quite how many really did appreciate what we were doing and those are without question, the majority. The greatest surprise was a phone call from Hampshire County Council saying they have been following this forum and offered June and I their 100% support too. Wow! are we flattered or what ?


We will reply to all of those emails, as we get around to them, If we have not yet replied to you, apologies, we will. There are also a number of emails unconnected with this topic which we still have to reply to.


Please do not worry whether or not you should send us an email, just do it, we will reply, and if it takes a while, do please remind us.


So thanks again for your vote of confidence, everybody.


Let's get this show on the road.


Tim & June (Winchester)


See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong ! icon_smile.gif

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It's good to see you had the break you obviously needed (and deserved)! And I'm glad you finally realise how much we appreciate you - I know you didn't see the results of the poll, but it was pretty much unanimously in your favour when I last checked, and personally I wasn't surprised at all.


It's just a pity that an outspoken minority gave you the impression that the majority were against you. I guess the rest of us should be outspoken more often!


SimonG.org - now with added blog!

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Are we in danger of taking ourselves, and this idiosyncratic pastime, a little too seriously? As I see it, we're just a bunch of folk who hide things in Tupperware boxes - all these rules, guidelines etc. seem a bit over the top. I appreciate that it seems different up here where we have hundreds (thousands?) of square miles in which to place and seek caches, but I do think people are in danger of getting a trifle over-wrought. Do we need leaders, moderators, censors, etc. or whatever? Maybe we do, and I'm really not not intending to knock anyone, especially T & J, but I guess the majority of us are over 16 (I'm more than 3 times that) and I don't think all this organisation / policing is necessary. If by our actions we do harm to "geocaching", so what - it's not an entity in itself! - (though I hope not to!) but it's a long way from being illegal or immoral, so who cares? And geocaching - what is it anyway? I avoided joining rugby / football / singing / drama / photography clubs because I dont't want to belong - why am I being encouraged to follow someone else's rules now?


I know I've been shouting my mouth off, and I really don't approve of vandalism, pollutiion etc., but I do feel that we're adults and don't need herding. Those who do need herding won't pay any bl**dy attention anyway!


The nearer your destination, the more you keep slip sliding away.

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