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Cops destroy another cache


Okiebryan
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From what I'm reading, meth cooks sometimes use lithium batteries. I can't find anything about lithium ion batteries being used.

 

Good call! I can't, either. Only the disposable lithium batteries are mentioned in anything that I can find... not the lithium-ion rechargables. But regardless... why remove, much less destroy the container?

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From what I'm reading, meth cooks sometimes use lithium batteries. I can't find anything about lithium ion batteries being used.

 

Good call! I can't, either. Only the disposable lithium batteries are mentioned in anything that I can find... not the lithium-ion rechargables. But regardless... why remove, much less destroy the container?

 

I'm guessing the realization that it was a cache happened after they got it back to HQ.

 

Okay I get that meth cookers may use batteries, but does that mean they leave them around in waterproof containers in the woods?

 

Where's ClanRiffster? I need some help with this one.

 

 

Maybe the bateries had leaked out and got goo everywhere...?

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"Trash, including portions of lithium ion batteries,"

 

Sounds like they weren't batteries anymores but most likely the empty shells which when found in any quantity is usually a sign of meth production.

 

So you'd like the cache to remain there after items such as this were placed in it? Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

It's just a cache, much like a tree as they only have a certain lifespan and then their gone, no use crying over it or hugging them.

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Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

And maybe not. Can we just deal with what the situation actually is, rather than some wild strawman fantasy?

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"Trash, including portions of lithium ion batteries,"

 

Sounds like they weren't batteries anymores but most likely the empty shells which when found in any quantity is usually a sign of meth production.

 

So you'd like the cache to remain there after items such as this were placed in it? Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

It's just a cache, much like a tree as they only have a certain lifespan and then their gone, no use crying over it or hugging them.

 

Some caches are worth "crying over" or "hugging", if that's the inflammatory language you wish to use (not the terms that I would use).

 

 

I am hardly an expert on lithium-ion batteries, but from what I can find online, the main "problem" would be lithium manganese oxide, and it looks pretty harmless, judging by its MSDS sheet.

 

[Edit to add: OK, I guess I see what you are suggesting... that the "portions of lithium-ion batteries" may actually have been used in the production of meth, and were hence disposed of in the cache. My question is, then... (and I don't know the answer to this) is there anything left of the batteries to be disposed of when they have been used in this way?]

Edited by knowschad
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"Trash, including portions of lithium ion batteries,"

 

Sounds like they weren't batteries anymores but most likely the empty shells which when found in any quantity is usually a sign of meth production.

 

So you'd like the cache to remain there after items such as this were placed in it? Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

It's just a cache, much like a tree as they only have a certain lifespan and then their gone, no use crying over it or hugging them.

 

Or maybe the media has gotten the details wrong again? I'm waiting for more information before I make the call but in the mean time you might want to catch the baby you threw out while washing your straw man on the slippery slope.

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"Trash, including portions of lithium ion batteries,"

 

Sounds like they weren't batteries anymores but most likely the empty shells which when found in any quantity is usually a sign of meth production.

 

So you'd like the cache to remain there after items such as this were placed in it? Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

It's just a cache, much like a tree as they only have a certain lifespan and then their gone, no use crying over it or hugging them.

 

Or maybe the media has gotten the details wrong again? I'm waiting for more information before I make the call but in the mean time you might want to catch the baby you threw out while washing your straw man on the slippery slope.

:D
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Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

And maybe not. Can we just deal with what the situation actually is, rather than some wild strawman fantasy?

Fantasy? Not so. We find just such containers with those type items all the time just like he described. Meth cooks will pitch it along the roadside when they're done with making their meth. The stuff is a hazmat and requires a special cleanup team to dispose of it. You definitely don't want to be in contact with it or the vapors.

Lithium batteries are used in some methods of cooking meth. Meth can be made with common over the counter items. It just depends on the recipe the particular cook uses.

For that part of OK it's more likely the police will be called to a meth cook than a geocache. When going on any of these calls it's always the practice to assume the worst and hope for the best. There are no second chances when dealing with bombs or hazmat.

Edited by Wadcutter
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Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

And maybe not. Can we just deal with what the situation actually is, rather than some wild strawman fantasy?

Fantasy? Not so. We find just such containers with those type items all the time just like he described. Meth cooks will pitch it along the roadside when they're done with making their meth. The stuff is a hazmat and requires a special cleanup team to dispose of it. You definitely don't want to be in contact with it or the vapors.

Lithium batteries are used in some methods of cooking meth. Meth can be made with common over the counter items. It just depends on the recipe the particular cook uses.

 

The article said that they identified it as a geocache, though, right? And would the containers you describe ever have just the batteries?

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Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

And maybe not. Can we just deal with what the situation actually is, rather than some wild strawman fantasy?

Fantasy? Not so. We find just such containers with those type items all the time just like he described. Meth cooks will pitch it along the roadside when they're done with making their meth. The stuff is a hazmat and requires a special cleanup team to dispose of it. You definitely don't want to be in contact with it or the vapors.

Lithium batteries are used in some methods of cooking meth. Meth can be made with common over the counter items. It just depends on the recipe the particular cook uses.

For that part of OK it's more likely the police will be called to a meth cook than a geocache. When going on any of these calls it's always the practice to assume the worst and hope for the best. There are no second chances when dealing with bombs or hazmat.

 

Right, so either:

 

A) The media got it wrong when they said "lithium-ion batteries"

B) The cops destroyed it/removed it not knowing if they were lithium or lithium-ion batteries.

C) Or... they knew it was lithium-ion batteries and destroyed/removed it anyway.

 

I'm guessing it was B. I'm sure I would have done the same. Point is, we don't really know. The article was pretty thin. With the record of the general media's accuracy when reporting on geocaching I think it's safe to say that this might not even be a geocache at all. It could be a letterbox, terra cache, lunchbox, pipebomb or even a meth lab.

 

One thing is for certain. It was a suspicious package.

Edited by Castle Mischief
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Heroin addicts use spoons ... be careful you don't get caught with heroin-related items!

Correct. You can get arrested for carrying a screwdriver too.

 

In fact most anyone here has carried a deadly weapon within the last hour. In fact, your keyboard is a deadly weapon. If you can kill someone with it, it's a deadly weapon. Phone book, chair, brick inside a sock, fork, plastic bag, etc.

 

It made those officers look/feel important. I guess they figure better safe than sorry. Now druggies in that area will start caching to score free drugs.

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Heroin addicts use spoons ... be careful you don't get caught with heroin-related items!

Correct. You can get arrested for carrying a screwdriver too.

 

In fact most anyone here has carried a deadly weapon within the last hour. In fact, your keyboard is a deadly weapon. If you can kill someone with it, it's a deadly weapon. Phone book, chair, brick inside a sock, fork, plastic bag, etc.

 

It made those officers look/feel important. I guess they figure better safe than sorry. Now druggies in that area will start caching to score free drugs.

 

Or, at least, they will know where to find lithium (or Li-Ion) batteries for their chemistry projects!

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Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

And maybe not. Can we just deal with what the situation actually is, rather than some wild strawman fantasy?

Fantasy? Not so. We find just such containers with those type items all the time just like he described. Meth cooks will pitch it along the roadside when they're done with making their meth. The stuff is a hazmat and requires a special cleanup team to dispose of it. You definitely don't want to be in contact with it or the vapors.

Lithium batteries are used in some methods of cooking meth. Meth can be made with common over the counter items. It just depends on the recipe the particular cook uses.

 

The article said that they identified it as a geocache, though, right? And would the containers you describe ever have just the batteries?

At what point was it determined to be a geocache? You don't know. You're just basing your "knowledge" on a couple of short paragraphs in a newspaper article. Having dealt closely with the media for years you learn very quickly that the media doesn't always report things accurately or completely even when you've given them a written release. The quoted article doesn't tell anything.

Having dealt with "suspicious packages" for 35 yrs as a LEO you don't go snooping around in a suspicious package. As I stated earlier you assume the worst and hope for the best but you don't get second chances if you were wrong. Not only do you not get second chances neither does the public.

Just yesterday the state bomb squad handled a "suspicious package" found outside a Planned Parenthood facility. It was a paper bag containing what? Who wants to volunteer to go up and open the bag? Planned Parenthood, abandoned bag containing something left out front. Only safe way to handle something like that is blow it in place. Turned out to be some homeless person's canned food. At least that's what it was this time.

It was always amazing that people who had no training whatsoever think they're experts on how to handle suspicous packages and do LE job. It doesn't take long for them to run their mouth before they embarrass themselves yet they know so little about it that they don't know they've embarrassed themselves.

Edited by Wadcutter
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Lithium ion batteries pose a fire hazard when combined with dihydrogen monoxide.

 

There's a good chance that the cops have lithium batteries in some of their electronics... which could be linked to the production of methamphetamine.

 

Yup. I tweaked the article for some perspective. You can swap in cell phone, Police radio, and MP3 player.

 

"Police officers found drug-related items in a laptop inside a patrol car last week.

 

Someone alerted the Special Projects Unit on Tuesday morning about methamphetamine-related items that were inside a the patrol car..

 

Patrolling is an activity where participants use navigational devices to find criminals and respond to calls using patrol cars..

 

Police found trash items, including portions of lithium ion batteries, that could be linked to production of methamphetamine. Lithium ion battery contents are reactive with water and could have posed a fire hazard, according to police.

 

Officers disposed of the contents and destroyed the car."

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I seem to recall reading a thread about caches being possible bomb threats..........now this?

Is there nothing safe anymore, aren't our lives cluttered enough?

I watched a child peddle his/her (couldn't tell) tricycle down a sidewalk. He/she was wearing so much protective gear they looked like the Michelin Man!

 

Anybody want to buy/trade a 60CSx for a stamp album? How much of a threat can I be?

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...Just yesterday the state bomb squad handled a "suspicious package" found outside a Planned Parenthood facility. It was a paper bag containing what? Who wants to volunteer to go up and open the bag? Planned Parenthood, abandoned bag containing something left out front. Only safe way to handle something like that is blow it in place. Turned out to be some homeless person's canned food. At least that's what it was this time....

 

The right thing to do here is this. Say flat out that you blew up some canned foods for exactly the reasons laid out. When an officer insists on calling what turned out to be food "drug related items" then they just look stupid even with the Jedi Mind Trick training they get on how to speak to elicit a certain responce from who they are talkign too (press and juries for example).

 

If they figured out it was a cache and for whatever reason it actually did have drug related items in it say as much. "Caching is a family acvitity we don't know why this particualr cache had these items in it". Of course officers have as much trouble understanding the larger world as the press.

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...Just yesterday the state bomb squad handled a "suspicious package" found outside a Planned Parenthood facility. It was a paper bag containing what? Who wants to volunteer to go up and open the bag? Planned Parenthood, abandoned bag containing something left out front. Only safe way to handle something like that is blow it in place. Turned out to be some homeless person's canned food. At least that's what it was this time....

 

The right thing to do here is this. Say flat out that you blew up some canned foods for exactly the reasons laid out. When an officer insists on calling what turned out to be food "drug related items" then they just look stupid even with the Jedi Mind Trick training they get on how to speak to elicit a certain responce from who they are talkign too (press and juries for example).

 

If they figured out it was a cache and for whatever reason it actually did have drug related items in it say as much. "Caching is a family acvitity we don't know why this particualr cache had these items in it". Of course officers have as much trouble understanding the larger world as the press.

 

I didn't see anywhere, not even in the sparse little article, where the police ever said it was meth related - the PRESS said it, the caller reported it, but the cops cited "fire hazard" ... according to the sparse little article that the PRESS wrote.

 

Don't forget ... we're not reading the police report here.

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Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

And maybe not. Can we just deal with what the situation actually is, rather than some wild strawman fantasy?

Fantasy? Not so. We find just such containers with those type items all the time just like he described. Meth cooks will pitch it along the roadside when they're done with making their meth. The stuff is a hazmat and requires a special cleanup team to dispose of it. You definitely don't want to be in contact with it or the vapors.

Lithium batteries are used in some methods of cooking meth. Meth can be made with common over the counter items. It just depends on the recipe the particular cook uses.

 

The article said that they identified it as a geocache, though, right? And would the containers you describe ever have just the batteries?

At what point was it determined to be a geocache? You don't know. You're just basing your "knowledge" on a couple of short paragraphs in a newspaper article. Having dealt closely with the media for years you learn very quickly that the media doesn't always report things accurately or completely even when you've given them a written release. The quoted article doesn't tell anything.

Having dealt with "suspicious packages" for 35 yrs as a LEO you don't go snooping around in a suspicious package. As I stated earlier you assume the worst and hope for the best but you don't get second chances if you were wrong. Not only do you not get second chances neither does the public.

Just yesterday the state bomb squad handled a "suspicious package" found outside a Planned Parenthood facility. It was a paper bag containing what? Who wants to volunteer to go up and open the bag? Planned Parenthood, abandoned bag containing something left out front. Only safe way to handle something like that is blow it in place. Turned out to be some homeless person's canned food. At least that's what it was this time.

It was always amazing that people who had no training whatsoever think they're experts on how to handle suspicous packages and do LE job. It doesn't take long for them to run their mouth before they embarrass themselves yet they know so little about it that they don't know they've embarrassed themselves.

 

 

Ummmm... we are not talking about blowing up a suspected bomb in this case. We're talking about destroying a container containing some batteries. And yes... we don't have full information. We are discussing what we know based on our limited information. I think we're all aware of that.

 

 

I was serious when I asked you if "...the containers you describe ever have just the batteries?" Would they? Or would there be other meth lab related items in it as well?

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Maybe next time some will dispose of a thermous container of Anhydrous ammonia, Acetone, Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid), Engine starter (ether), Iodine, Heet/gasoline additives (methanol/alcohol), Muriatic acid, Red Devil lye, Sodium metal, Trichloroethane (gun cleaning solvent), Toluene, etc.

 

And maybe not. Can we just deal with what the situation actually is, rather than some wild strawman fantasy?

Fantasy? Not so. We find just such containers with those type items all the time just like he described. Meth cooks will pitch it along the roadside when they're done with making their meth. The stuff is a hazmat and requires a special cleanup team to dispose of it. You definitely don't want to be in contact with it or the vapors.

Lithium batteries are used in some methods of cooking meth. Meth can be made with common over the counter items. It just depends on the recipe the particular cook uses.

 

The article said that they identified it as a geocache, though, right? And would the containers you describe ever have just the batteries?

At what point was it determined to be a geocache? You don't know. You're just basing your "knowledge" on a couple of short paragraphs in a newspaper article. Having dealt closely with the media for years you learn very quickly that the media doesn't always report things accurately or completely even when you've given them a written release. The quoted article doesn't tell anything.

Having dealt with "suspicious packages" for 35 yrs as a LEO you don't go snooping around in a suspicious package. As I stated earlier you assume the worst and hope for the best but you don't get second chances if you were wrong. Not only do you not get second chances neither does the public.

Just yesterday the state bomb squad handled a "suspicious package" found outside a Planned Parenthood facility. It was a paper bag containing what? Who wants to volunteer to go up and open the bag? Planned Parenthood, abandoned bag containing something left out front. Only safe way to handle something like that is blow it in place. Turned out to be some homeless person's canned food. At least that's what it was this time.

It was always amazing that people who had no training whatsoever think they're experts on how to handle suspicous packages and do LE job. It doesn't take long for them to run their mouth before they embarrass themselves yet they know so little about it that they don't know they've embarrassed themselves.

 

This is good info!

 

A lot of you sure are acting all up-in-arms and just irrational over something you pretty much seem to know little about. I think I could probably fill you in on a bit, but what good will it do considering most of you assume mean ol LEO have overstepped their bounds once again? Oh well, let me try...

 

Anyone here a realtor? Know what happens when a house has been identified as a meth house?

 

I knew a family (a good family, the wife was a nurse and made good money) that started using meth and then decided to skip the middleman and make the meth so they didn't have to steal every time they needed a high. The stories I could tell you...they ended up losing everything along with their kids and their freedom, but the house was left empty and unsellable for several years. It came up for sale a year or so ago and, after my realtor brother by chance described it to me, I let him know it was a meth house and guess what, back off the market. They literally condemn such buildings AND properties (that's right, some druggies bury their hazmat material in their backyards). Most of the time, I hear it's easier to tear down the house and clean up the property than to try to save the house...

 

Meth byproducts and ingredients are hazardous and treated as such for good reason. I believe the info I have seen suggests the officers acted properly. But, we won't know for certain without more info which I would venture won't be forthcoming.

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Know what happens when a house has been identified as a meth house?

 

Good grief!! For all we know, the container had swag and batteries in it. Just as "we" have been accused of, Wadcutter and you also don't have enough information to make a judgement.

 

 

Besides... I DO know what its like to be a cop... I watched the geocaching episode of Law & Order just tonight. :D

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Know what happens when a house has been identified as a meth house?

 

Good grief!! For all we know, the container had swag and batteries in it. Just as "we" have been accused of, Wadcutter and you also don't have enough information to make a judgement.

 

 

Besides... I DO know what its like to be a cop... I watched the geocaching episode of Law & Order just tonight. B)

 

Yeah, I believe I said that we didn't have all the info? I also said that, with the info presented, I believe the cops did the right thing. The article said trash items including parts of batteries. Would you be interested in knowing what meth makers use to boil down their drug? Coffee filters are one, rags, lady hygeine products etc. Other "trash items" are used for various stages, too.

 

Do yu know what they had in that container?? Neither do I, but I'm not going to sit here and play armchair quarterback either... :D

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Yeah, I believe I said that we didn't have all the info? I also said that, with the info presented, I believe the cops did the right thing. The article said trash items including parts of batteries. Would you be interested in knowing what meth makers use to boil down their drug? Coffee filters are one, rags, lady hygeine products etc. Other "trash items" are used for various stages, too.

 

Do yu know what they had in that container?? Neither do I, but I'm not going to sit here and play armchair quarterback either... :D

 

"Trash items" more likely (in this case, where the container has been identified as a geocache) means McToys, a used golf ball or two, maybe a carabiner or keychain , a few rocks picked up nearby. We've had more than enough discussions about "trash items" in caches. If it had those things that you named, I think they would have added that to the report just as they mentioned the batteries. But they didn't.

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Yeah, I believe I said that we didn't have all the info? I also said that, with the info presented, I believe the cops did the right thing. The article said trash items including parts of batteries. Would you be interested in knowing what meth makers use to boil down their drug? Coffee filters are one, rags, lady hygeine products etc. Other "trash items" are used for various stages, too.

 

Do yu know what they had in that container?? Neither do I, but I'm not going to sit here and play armchair quarterback either... :D

 

"Trash items" more likely (in this case, where the container has been identified as a geocache) means McToys, a used golf ball or two, maybe a carabiner or keychain , a few rocks picked up nearby. We've had more than enough discussions about "trash items" in caches. If it had those things that you named, I think they would have added that to the report just as they mentioned the batteries. But they didn't.

 

Making conclusions without sufficient evidence? You have as little knowledge as to the trash items as I do...one thing for certain, the battery parts sounds very suspicious. Tends to lead me to think differently than McToys etc...

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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Making conclusions without sufficient evidence? You have as little knowledge as to the trash items as I do...one thing for certain, the battery parts sounds very suspicious. Tends to lead me to think differently than McToys etc...

 

Based on what evidence? They said that it was a geocache! What on earth would lead you to believe that it was anything but some McToys and golf balls and a pair of batteries that someone left for the next cacher to find? Come on, Roddy...

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I agree that the information from the article was very limited on what brought about the conclusion that this was an actual geocache container. I agree that media doesnt always get the facts correct before reporting information and that often information is "embellished" to make a better story.

 

The facts as I understand from the limited information giving are that somehow LEO 's attention was brought to a suspicious container. To me, this means that a concerned citizen placed the call to 911 and the authorities arrived on scene. I am not going to speculate on what methods they used to determine what the contents were i.e . robot, camera, xray or physically opening the container and looking at the contents. It may have been based only on what the 911 caller reported.

 

As all of you, I do have an opinion. I will base my opinion not on being new to this sport. I will not base this opinion on the few posts that I have in place or at this time the two hides I have or the under one hundred caches I have found.

 

I am an LEO. I have been for almost 23 years now. If you will allow me to qualify myself, please. If you are reading this , it is because you have an interest in what this post was about. I work for a large police department. Prior 9/11 , LEO was very limited on their handling of "suspicious packages" and bomb threats. With no formal training on these items, basically we would look around , hopefully find whatever someone called in on and either "poke" at it or "give it a nudge"and see what happens. Often times, a package would be opened up and inspected. Training in these areas was very limited as described. If it wasnt the obvious fragmentation grenade or something with wires and a battery attached to it, we really didnt know the difference.

 

Until recently, I did not know what geocaching was. The shift that I work with didnt know what geocaching was until I started to talk about it. Some are actually doing this on their days off now too. I will get back to this..

 

Please dont take this as bragging. Again, I am trying to qualify myself and give another perspective.

Prior to 9/11 , I worked for my department as a Federally licensed DOT inspector. I recieved the federally mandated training required to do department of transportation inspections on commercial motor vehicles. This included doing hazardous materials inspections on cargo tankers. I was certified to inspect hazardous materials on board these vehicles. I was certified to respond to accidents involving hazardous materials that were being transported. I was certified as a hazmat technician for five years. This included extensive training with the local fire department hazmat crews.

 

Post 9/11, Our department initiated its counter terrorism / wmd response team. I trained on the federal level and was a member of our WMD response team. This training was very very detailed and included training in Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear and Explosives fields. Foreign and domestic terrorism intelligence and training were what I was trained in. I have been to several parts of the country where I received this training in all areas of CBRNE. I am instructor qualified at the federal level. My specialties were in receiving training in these fields and how to respond to these incidents, how to maintain incident command, train officers within our department as well as other city departments on terrorism/weapons of mass destruction. I was one of a few that would don the various protective incapsulated suits and go in where the suspicious powder or device was. I would gather this up to the FBIs standards in evidence collection in order to prosecute correctly, if possible. I have dealt with "face to face" ,things that you read about or see on the news and often seem to arm chair quarterback about. This is my chosen career and this is what I do. I have declared suspicious items as explosives and/or hazardous materials. I have located explosive devices/ IEDs at our local infrastructures. I have responded to and located explosive devices at abortion clinics, churches , schools, etc...anywhere there is controversy.

 

We dont just walk up to it and place a charge next to it and blow it up. We gather as much information on what we have and talk to as many witnesses as possible. When there is an indication that this item is capable of causing injury or death to the public, the item will be destroyed. It is what is done by visual inspection if possible, robot, remote camera, xray and whatever intelligence is available.

 

A side note, yes caches are your private property. When an item is out of your direct control and I mean there are no readily available means to know that this is yours, it is considered abandoned or in this case, a suspicious package. You know that when you place a cache that it is fair game to be stolen or vandalized. Statements like what right do LEO have....etc. I mentioned earlier that none of the shift members had any idea what geocaching was until I mentioned it recently. Yes , do I know how to find out who it belongs to etc , utilize coordinates to verify etc, yes. Unfortunately, this is not known throughout the department as is with other departments. The right is to protect people from death or serious injury. If an officer walked up and opened every suspicious package that someone called in on, there would be alot of related officer injuries and deaths. What confidence would you have in your emergency reponders? I do understand not all are fans of LEO's.

 

I have since returned to patrol as a supervisor and still respond when I hear these types of calls come out. I have a different perspective on what a suspicious items container may actually be now due to my knowledge of geocaches. We are trained though these days that if it is a suspicious package call, clear the area out and call in the specialists. We dont kick containers any more. This is what we train. This is how it is these days. If there is any indication that it contains a hazardous material or unidentifiable material, it will be rendered "safe" and then analyzed more carefully.

 

I am planning to establish my credibility just a bit more and hit my "one hundred" find mark and present this information about geocaching to my department. I will accomplish this soon.I have already begun a working on a presentation for my department regarding this information. Please understand though, larger departments implementation of training often takes time.

 

Thank you for allowing me to present my perspective. I expect that I will get my share of "non" fan mail as a result of my posting. I am not saying that our way is always the best way. Its just where we are these days as opposed to the way we used to do things.

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"Officers disposed of the contents and destroyed the container" :D

 

What right did they have to destroy the container?

 

None, in this case. They can't just going around destroying private property with no reason.

Unfortunately, there are too many people in positions of authority (police and otherwise) who believe they can.
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I agree that the information from the article was very limited on what brought about the conclusion that this was an actual geocache container. I agree that media doesnt always get the facts correct before reporting information and that often information is "embellished" to make a better story.

 

The facts as I understand from the limited information giving are that somehow LEO 's attention was brought to a suspicious container. To me, this means that a concerned citizen placed the call to 911 and the authorities arrived on scene. I am not going to speculate on what methods they used to determine what the contents were i.e . robot, camera, xray or physically opening the container and looking at the contents. It may have been based only on what the 911 caller reported.

 

As all of you, I do have an opinion. I will base my opinion not on being new to this sport. I will not base this opinion on the few posts that I have in place or at this time the two hides I have or the under one hundred caches I have found.

 

I am an LEO. I have been for almost 23 years now. If you will allow me to qualify myself, please. If you are reading this , it is because you have an interest in what this post was about. I work for a large police department. Prior 9/11 , LEO was very limited on their handling of "suspicious packages" and bomb threats. With no formal training on these items, basically we would look around , hopefully find whatever someone called in on and either "poke" at it or "give it a nudge"and see what happens. Often times, a package would be opened up and inspected. Training in these areas was very limited as described. If it wasnt the obvious fragmentation grenade or something with wires and a battery attached to it, we really didnt know the difference.

 

Until recently, I did not know what geocaching was. The shift that I work with didnt know what geocaching was until I started to talk about it. Some are actually doing this on their days off now too. I will get back to this..

 

Please dont take this as bragging. Again, I am trying to qualify myself and give another perspective.

Prior to 9/11 , I worked for my department as a Federally licensed DOT inspector. I recieved the federally mandated training required to do department of transportation inspections on commercial motor vehicles. This included doing hazardous materials inspections on cargo tankers. I was certified to inspect hazardous materials on board these vehicles. I was certified to respond to accidents involving hazardous materials that were being transported. I was certified as a hazmat technician for five years. This included extensive training with the local fire department hazmat crews.

 

Post 9/11, Our department initiated its counter terrorism / wmd response team. I trained on the federal level and was a member of our WMD response team. This training was very very detailed and included training in Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear and Explosives fields. Foreign and domestic terrorism intelligence and training were what I was trained in. I have been to several parts of the country where I received this training in all areas of CBRNE. I am instructor qualified at the federal level. My specialties were in receiving training in these fields and how to respond to these incidents, how to maintain incident command, train officers within our department as well as other city departments on terrorism/weapons of mass destruction. I was one of a few that would don the various protective incapsulated suits and go in where the suspicious powder or device was. I would gather this up to the FBIs standards in evidence collection in order to prosecute correctly, if possible. I have dealt with "face to face" ,things that you read about or see on the news and often seem to arm chair quarterback about. This is my chosen career and this is what I do. I have declared suspicious items as explosives and/or hazardous materials. I have located explosive devices/ IEDs at our local infrastructures. I have responded to and located explosive devices at abortion clinics, churches , schools, etc...anywhere there is controversy.

 

We dont just walk up to it and place a charge next to it and blow it up. We gather as much information on what we have and talk to as many witnesses as possible. When there is an indication that this item is capable of causing injury or death to the public, the item will be destroyed. It is what is done by visual inspection if possible, robot, remote camera, xray and whatever intelligence is available.

 

A side note, yes caches are your private property. When an item is out of your direct control and I mean there are no readily available means to know that this is yours, it is considered abandoned or in this case, a suspicious package. You know that when you place a cache that it is fair game to be stolen or vandalized. Statements like what right do LEO have....etc. I mentioned earlier that none of the shift members had any idea what geocaching was until I mentioned it recently. Yes , do I know how to find out who it belongs to etc , utilize coordinates to verify etc, yes. Unfortunately, this is not known throughout the department as is with other departments. The right is to protect people from death or serious injury. If an officer walked up and opened every suspicious package that someone called in on, there would be alot of related officer injuries and deaths. What confidence would you have in your emergency reponders? I do understand not all are fans of LEO's.

 

I have since returned to patrol as a supervisor and still respond when I hear these types of calls come out. I have a different perspective on what a suspicious items container may actually be now due to my knowledge of geocaches. We are trained though these days that if it is a suspicious package call, clear the area out and call in the specialists. We dont kick containers any more. This is what we train. This is how it is these days. If there is any indication that it contains a hazardous material or unidentifiable material, it will be rendered "safe" and then analyzed more carefully.

 

I am planning to establish my credibility just a bit more and hit my "one hundred" find mark and present this information about geocaching to my department. I will accomplish this soon.I have already begun a working on a presentation for my department regarding this information. Please understand though, larger departments implementation of training often takes time.

 

Thank you for allowing me to present my perspective. I expect that I will get my share of "non" fan mail as a result of my posting. I am not saying that our way is always the best way. Its just where we are these days as opposed to the way we used to do things.

 

 

Great post, and I need to re-read it. But once again... this is NOT about a suspected bomb.

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Knowschad,

 

Thanks for the polite reponse. I hope this doesnt end up double posting...if so, I apologize.

 

Your right, it didnt say it was a bomb.

 

I will only add on that there are alot of agencies that dont have the resources to respond to these types of calls. Some smaller agencies will call on county resources or an adjoining agency for help. This agency may have been more than capable of handling it. Agency to agency, protocols will vary.

 

There wasnt enough informaion given in the article, only that it was a container. Be it that it was a 50 cal ammo can or a tupperware container, I think we can agree (yes,ok maybe) that they are all not marked with geocache decals on the outside. Even so, not all that have on sticker on one side, have another on the other side (if it were laying on its side.)

 

We have the ability to "swab" the outside of a container (if possible and sometimes its just not possible due to safety protocols) or a substance. We then place the sample under a tester (IR Traveler) that will give a breakdown as to what the makeup of the substance (s) is/are. This helps in trying to figure out what your dealing with. This might have been enough for the agency to handle it the way they did. I dont know.

 

Thanks for your perspective. These posts will help me with my presentation, it is appreciated.

 

Respecfully responding.

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Making conclusions without sufficient evidence? You have as little knowledge as to the trash items as I do...one thing for certain, the battery parts sounds very suspicious. Tends to lead me to think differently than McToys etc...

 

Based on what evidence? They said that it was a geocache! What on earth would lead you to believe that it was anything but some McToys and golf balls and a pair of batteries that someone left for the next cacher to find? Come on, Roddy...

 

GEEZ KC, you yourself said the LEO have enough sense to spell out the "trash items", do you think they're NOT smart enough to say TOYS instead of trash items? I'm guessing the LEO know the difference between trash items and a golf ball. And, they said BATTERY PARTS...right? Do you suppose they're smart enough that, if they said geocache, they might be able to also state "caching related trash"? On the GEOCACHE thought, can we prove it was even a geocache? Were the LEO making an assumption there? Can someone point out which cache this was? For all we know, this was just meth trash being thrown out somewhere public! But, since they said geocache, we'll have to assume they know what they're talking about (funny though, we've already seen they have difficulty identifying geocaches as evidenced by the exploded ones in the past).

 

Again, NO evidence (please read my post more carefully), not enough info has been given. My ASSUMPTION is that, since they said BATTERY PARTS (not batteries, not exploded batteries...I would guess they're also smart enough to know the difference there since they knew enough to say "trash items" as you pointed out), that's a good indicator of METH MAKING! After all, the LEO also reported to the press they found drug related items?

 

So, going by the info contained in that report AND my knowledge of how meth is made and what meth makers do, I would say (again) the LEO acted appropriately!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
Link to comment
I agree that the information from the article was very limited on what brought about the conclusion that this was an actual geocache container. I agree that media doesnt always get the facts correct before reporting information and that often information is "embellished" to make a better story.

 

The facts as I understand from the limited information giving are that somehow LEO 's attention was brought to a suspicious container. To me, this means that a concerned citizen placed the call to 911 and the authorities arrived on scene. I am not going to speculate on what methods they used to determine what the contents were i.e . robot, camera, xray or physically opening the container and looking at the contents. It may have been based only on what the 911 caller reported.

 

As all of you, I do have an opinion. I will base my opinion not on being new to this sport. I will not base this opinion on the few posts that I have in place or at this time the two hides I have or the under one hundred caches I have found.

 

I am an LEO. I have been for almost 23 years now. If you will allow me to qualify myself, please. If you are reading this , it is because you have an interest in what this post was about. I work for a large police department. Prior 9/11 , LEO was very limited on their handling of "suspicious packages" and bomb threats. With no formal training on these items, basically we would look around , hopefully find whatever someone called in on and either "poke" at it or "give it a nudge"and see what happens. Often times, a package would be opened up and inspected. Training in these areas was very limited as described. If it wasnt the obvious fragmentation grenade or something with wires and a battery attached to it, we really didnt know the difference.

 

Until recently, I did not know what geocaching was. The shift that I work with didnt know what geocaching was until I started to talk about it. Some are actually doing this on their days off now too. I will get back to this..

 

Please dont take this as bragging. Again, I am trying to qualify myself and give another perspective.

Prior to 9/11 , I worked for my department as a Federally licensed DOT inspector. I recieved the federally mandated training required to do department of transportation inspections on commercial motor vehicles. This included doing hazardous materials inspections on cargo tankers. I was certified to inspect hazardous materials on board these vehicles. I was certified to respond to accidents involving hazardous materials that were being transported. I was certified as a hazmat technician for five years. This included extensive training with the local fire department hazmat crews.

 

Post 9/11, Our department initiated its counter terrorism / wmd response team. I trained on the federal level and was a member of our WMD response team. This training was very very detailed and included training in Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear and Explosives fields. Foreign and domestic terrorism intelligence and training were what I was trained in. I have been to several parts of the country where I received this training in all areas of CBRNE. I am instructor qualified at the federal level. My specialties were in receiving training in these fields and how to respond to these incidents, how to maintain incident command, train officers within our department as well as other city departments on terrorism/weapons of mass destruction. I was one of a few that would don the various protective incapsulated suits and go in where the suspicious powder or device was. I would gather this up to the FBIs standards in evidence collection in order to prosecute correctly, if possible. I have dealt with "face to face" ,things that you read about or see on the news and often seem to arm chair quarterback about. This is my chosen career and this is what I do. I have declared suspicious items as explosives and/or hazardous materials. I have located explosive devices/ IEDs at our local infrastructures. I have responded to and located explosive devices at abortion clinics, churches , schools, etc...anywhere there is controversy.

 

We dont just walk up to it and place a charge next to it and blow it up. We gather as much information on what we have and talk to as many witnesses as possible. When there is an indication that this item is capable of causing injury or death to the public, the item will be destroyed. It is what is done by visual inspection if possible, robot, remote camera, xray and whatever intelligence is available.

 

A side note, yes caches are your private property. When an item is out of your direct control and I mean there are no readily available means to know that this is yours, it is considered abandoned or in this case, a suspicious package. You know that when you place a cache that it is fair game to be stolen or vandalized. Statements like what right do LEO have....etc. I mentioned earlier that none of the shift members had any idea what geocaching was until I mentioned it recently. Yes , do I know how to find out who it belongs to etc , utilize coordinates to verify etc, yes. Unfortunately, this is not known throughout the department as is with other departments. The right is to protect people from death or serious injury. If an officer walked up and opened every suspicious package that someone called in on, there would be alot of related officer injuries and deaths. What confidence would you have in your emergency reponders? I do understand not all are fans of LEO's.

 

I have since returned to patrol as a supervisor and still respond when I hear these types of calls come out. I have a different perspective on what a suspicious items container may actually be now due to my knowledge of geocaches. We are trained though these days that if it is a suspicious package call, clear the area out and call in the specialists. We dont kick containers any more. This is what we train. This is how it is these days. If there is any indication that it contains a hazardous material or unidentifiable material, it will be rendered "safe" and then analyzed more carefully.

 

I am planning to establish my credibility just a bit more and hit my "one hundred" find mark and present this information about geocaching to my department. I will accomplish this soon.I have already begun a working on a presentation for my department regarding this information. Please understand though, larger departments implementation of training often takes time.

 

Thank you for allowing me to present my perspective. I expect that I will get my share of "non" fan mail as a result of my posting. I am not saying that our way is always the best way. Its just where we are these days as opposed to the way we used to do things.

 

 

Great post, and I need to re-read it. But once again... this is NOT about a suspected bomb.

 

I believe you missed this part. And, never did I see the poster suggest this was a bomb or suspected bomb! Hazardous material CAN also be drug making items, by-products or even DRUG trash! :) The leading indicator here would be the battery parts.

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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GEEZ KC, you yourself said the LEO have enough sense to spell out the "trash items", do you think they're NOT smart enough to say TOYS instead of those trash items? I'm guessing the LEO know the difference between trash items and a golf ball. And, they said BATTERY PARTS...right? Do you suppose they're smart enough that, if they said geocache, they might be able to also state "caching related trash"? On the GEOCACHE thought, can we prove it was even a geocache? Were the LEO making an assumption there? Can someone point out which cache this was? For all we know, this was just meth trash being thrown out somewhere public! But, since they said geocache, we'll have to assume they know what they're talking about (funny though, we've already seen they have difficulty identifying geocaches as evidenced by the exploded ones in the past).

 

Again, NO evidence (please read my post more carefully), not enough info has been given. My ASSUMPTION is that, since they said BATTERY PARTS (not batteries, not exploded batteries...I would guess they're also smart enough to know the difference there since they knew enough to say "trash items" as you pointed out), that's a good indicator of METH MAKING! After all, the LEO also reported to the press they found drug related items?

 

So, going by the info contained in that report AND my knowledge of how meth is made and what meth makers do, I would say (again) the LEO acted appropriately!

 

Roddy, don't take this as a personal assault, but you're citing the article as fact when it supports your opinion and you're citing the article as speculation when it supports knowschad. You are also stating facts that do not appear in the article at all.

 

Based on the information in the new article, painfully short and vague piece of journalism that it is, I'm not convinced that this was an actual "geocache" listed under this site or any other.

But this article is all we have, so let's review...

 

Your statement "After all, the LEO also reported to the press they found drug related items?" is not supported by any account of the incident.

 

They said battery parts- they also said lithium-ion batteries. Not lithium batteries. One is associated with meth production, one is not. Police error or media error? Who knows?

 

The only "fact" attributed to the police is this single line: "Lithium ion battery contents are reactive with water and could have posed a fire hazard, according to police."

 

The police are never attributed to identifying the container and its contents as meth lab or meth related.

 

The only apparent connection to meth comes from this line: "Someone alerted the Special Projects Unit on Tuesday morning about methamphetamine-related items that were inside a geocache near the lake."

 

Sounds to me like somebody found either a cache or what they assumed to be a cache and made the connection due to the contents that it was meth related.

 

It then appears that the police removed the container due to the fire hazard.

 

 

No mention of a log. No mention of identifying labels. No mention of who found the "cache" or if the finders identified it as a cache or if the media made this jump to conclusions.

Edited by Castle Mischief
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