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Google Earth add-in removed


adrian.rutter

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Well, I'm also one of the "200".

As you can tell by my post number I rarely visit/post to the forums. This might be my 3rd time visiting them this year. I don't remember ever posting anything in these forums before so I'll do my best to vent then be gone.

 

I mainly use the forums to search for solutions to problems that I come across.

My problem is that I use Google Earth all the time for caching. So when I loaded my PC with Windows 7 RC last night I wanted to setup my GSAK and grab the KML file for Google Earth. To my surprise it's not there. Am I losing my mind? It used to be right here on my account page! Better check the forums and find out what's up.

 

Well, here I am!!

I have read every post on the thread. Some more than once. I've come to the conclusion that something is not right.

 

Let's start with the number "200". If they (Groundspeak) didn't want us to "get hung up on the number 200" then why make the statement "only about 200 users regularly accessed the Google Earth KML"?

Was this their attempt to makes us think we're the only ones using it so we better adapt to the new way?

When I first read that I thought it was a typo. I know for a fact that I can draw a 20 mile circle around my house and find 50 cachers that use the Google Earth KML. In fact a group of us were just talking about how nice the KML is at the last event I attended on the 18th of April.

 

So the question is, if they really think that only 200 of us use it regularly, why is that? Is their method of counting us wrong? If that's the case then is it possible that the true impact on the servers/network could be measured wrong also?

 

If the impact on the network is correct but instead of 200 customers using it there were 200,000 using it then is the impact justified? Should it then be assumed that they should be looking at a break/fix issue rather than pulling the plug and telling their clients that it's going away and not coming back so live with it? While this method of problem solving is 100% effective in fixing this bandwidth/server issue, it's not really good from a PR standpoint.

 

I've made a quick count of clients on this thread alone and have counted around 50 users that say they use the GE KML feature and will miss it. That's 25% of the 200 number quoted from the Release note. Since the feature isn't even dead yet I'm sure that this number will rise dramatically over the next 2 weeks as users like me want to know why a feature they used doesn't work anymore.

 

I guess what I'm eluding to is I feel that I'm being lied to and that the number of users and the user to impact ratio to the system has little to do with the reason for pulling the feature.

Could there be another underlying issue? Politics maybe? Money? Groundspeak wanting us touse their Google maps exclusively? I don't know and hesitate to even speculate since I know nothing of Groundspeak and their business. I think either their method of counting actual users of the feature is wrong or we're being hoodwinked on the true reason.

 

As far as some of the posts I've read, some of them do not make any sense to me.

One is from post # 83 referring to users that will miss the KML.

"It doesn't matter to them. They don't want to adapt, they just want it the way it was so they don't have to think...and no matter what we say, they don't want to listen."

Well I’m one of those that question the reason and will miss the KML. If the facts are I don't want to adapt to new procedures and methods, why is it I'm a BETA tester for Windows 7? Shouldn't I just sit back and let others hack out the issues and then upgrade only when they stop supporting my DOS 5.0? I’m taking this time to respond to this post because I am a thinker and I question this action because I want more info.

I love to learn new things and am always looking for better way to do tasks. That doesn't mean that I like throwing away perfectly good methods.

 

I will learn to use the other features and will adapt. But I try not to be a Lemming and follow a path just because I'm told to. The first thing I do is ask "Why" and listen to the explanation. If the explanation doesn't make sense to me or I hear something fishy like "only 200 users" when I know that’s not the truth, I want a better explanation.

 

I fully understand that Groundspeak does not owe me or anyone else an explanation as to why they want to do something with their website; they are free to do what they wish. I also understand that they are running a business and if they don't listen to their clients it will negatively impact their business.

I personally prefer to give my business to a company that is interested in my opinion and doesn't try to con me.

 

The other post that made me scratch my head was # 93

"I never used the KML filter that some seem to have loved. I didn't need to, I've always done other things that worked just as well for me and didn't rely on the resource pig Google Earth to work."

If you never used it then how did you know that your method "worked just as well"? Maybe it was faster. Maybe it wasn't, but until you worked with both it’s hard, if not impossible to make an educated comparison.

Another thing I find interesting in this thread is there seems to be only a handful of people that don’t care about the network KML file being put to rest. Yet they seem to be the most vocal. Again, I have to ask myself why? If they have no interest in it, why do they put so much effort in this thread? Will the increase in performance on the site after it’s shutdown be so great that it’s worth all the time and effort they put into monitoring something that in the long run won’t affect them much at all? IMO some comments were downright condescending and really added no value to this thread. If we question Groundspeak and have to change our ways we’re non-thinkers and deaf? That’s harsh.

 

What’s the true reason for their interests? Groundspeak flag wavers? Forum squatters? Or just wanting to add their comments and be heard? Questions that will never be answered. It just raises a thought in my mind as to why the effort.

 

Thankfully Geocaching is just a hobby for me and while I do love it, I could do without it. I love getting outside and going places I’ve never been to nor would have ever gone to had it not been for a cache hidden there. I’d still cache even if I couldn’t log my finds. I know a couple of people that do just that.

The numbers are not what are important to me. It’s the search. I would rather spend more time in the field searching for the cache than in front of the computer loading caches onto the GPS’er. I’ll live, I’ll learn a new way, no problem there. It’s just that my old way didn’t appear to be broken. Perhaps it is, but no one has convinced me of that yet so I question it.

 

I guess the bottom line is do I want to spend my $30 a year with Groundspeak or not? Will they miss me if I don't? I doubt it; they won't even notice that I'm missing other than the canned e-mails reminding me that my membership has expired.

Is the lack of a network KML file the deal breaker between GC.com and myself? Dunno yet. I do know that this issue has raised more questions in my mind than just a missing KML file. I won't repeat them at the risk of being redundant. I have until September to find an answer to this question.

 

BTW, these questions I ask are rhetorical. Just me… thinking out loud. I’ve already spent more time that I ever wanted to in regards to this issue and have wasted a lot of your time. No need to answer any of them for my sake. I don’t even know If I’ll return to this thread. I guess I wanted my thoughts known and needed to vent. :blink:

 

Since I found the old KML file on one of my old ‘puters and have installed it on my Windows 7 ‘puter, and…. It’s working just fine... right now, I think I’ll load up some caches and go hunting. It sure beats typing. :)

 

Happy caching to all and I hope to see you in the field, regardless of what method you use to search for your new caches.

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The system would generate the KML file for the PQ which shouldn't cost any more than generating the preview in Google Maps that is currently available.

 

That was similar to my thought as well.

I'd really be interested to know how generating a KML on the fly is more expensive then generating a view for Google Maps.

I quote myself from the release notes thread:

I'm having trouble seeing how it would be less efficient than the Google Maps interface.

They seem to both involve:

  • Client sends viewing rectangle to server
  • Server returns names, IDs, types of caches within that window

For Google Earth, the server does have to wrap the data in the proper KML. That shouldn't be processor-intensive; some structure has to be given to the data returned for Google Maps requests as well.

Then there's the randomization. That could be coded inefficiently, but I believe it's really unnecessary.

 

I made a few other points in that thread as well...

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Has not the history of Groundspeak and how controversy is handled taught us that we are beating a dead horse. They spoke - we have no choice. There is no competition to alter the thought process. Maybe congress should look into this.... hahaha that was a joke folks.

 

I still think going backwards is wrong for many reasons. Does it not show a lack of ability to be innovative in the IT department or management's decision to not give them a chance or am I all wet? Again I am not putting down any individual only fishing for some answers.

 

In truth, I think they are working on a solution that will make us all happy! Raine and the boys have done a great job up to this point, why not again - unless being held back because of cost (which I understand).

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I, for one, used Google Earth a great deal. I especially liked it for hiding new caches, as everything was on the screen at once: Any and all caches in the area, paths of clearings in the woods, etc... And it showed everything "as the crow flies", which helped a lot while planning for new caches.

 

I can't understand why Groundspeak decided to discontinue it's support of Google Earth. I know I'm definately going to miss it.

 

-= Dewski =-

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For the last year or so I've opened "My Account" and clicked on "Download Geocache browser in Google Earth" as my favorite way to plan trips and caching days.

Yesterday I tried to do that and discovered that the link IS GONE! ;)

Has it "moved" somewhere? Can we "get it back"?

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I've been looking through "postings" again, and, if I understand correctly, we can expect a "improved/enhanced" "Cache Along a Route" function.

 

I have tried that feature several times and found it cumbersome and limited, since we quite often choose "our route" AFTER looking at caches in the area we're passing through/around.

 

It used to be quick and straightforward to download the KML and "scan" for caches.

 

For now, I guess my best bet is to start with a ZIP or COORD search and MAP>Satellite and scan around, but those maps take FOREVER to update after you you move sideways or zoom.

 

PLEASE! May we have our "Download Geocache browser in Google Earth" link back? PLEASE!

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Mine seems to be working again, I know that it wasn't last time I checked?

 

I have GE running with the GC KML on a desktop, laptop and netbook. The laptop kml stpped working a day or 2 ago and the other 2 still work.

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I'll try to read through this entire thread AGAIN to see why this feature was removed to begin with. There must be some logical reasoning?? Being among the thousands of the "200", I would at least like to know why this feature was removed.

 

I also want to try any other avenue that I can that might work. Would similar programs be something that GC might consider using - like World Wind or ArcGIS Explorer???

 

-= Dewski =-

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I'll try to read through this entire thread AGAIN to see why this feature was removed to begin with. There must be some logical reasoning?? Being among the thousands of the "200", I would at least like to know why this feature was removed.

 

I also want to try any other avenue that I can that might work. Would similar programs be something that GC might consider using - like World Wind or ArcGIS Explorer???

 

-= Dewski =-

 

According to TBTB the cache database was taking too many hits to justify the low amount of users that used the tool. In other word's - it is a resource hog on Groundspeak's servers.

 

ArcGIS would have the same problem associated with it.

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I'll try to read through this entire thread AGAIN to see why this feature was removed to begin with. There must be some logical reasoning?? Being among the thousands of the "200", I would at least like to know why this feature was removed.

 

I also want to try any other avenue that I can that might work. Would similar programs be something that GC might consider using - like World Wind or ArcGIS Explorer???

 

-= Dewski =-

In post #26 of this thread, robertlipe posted a link to the official announcement.

 

Here is the link again.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=219908

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You could always sign the petition here.

 

[Link removed by moderator, because the linked site requires the creation of an account. Do not promote this site in the Groundspeak Forums without permission.]

 

The site does not require the creation of an account to post on the petition. The goal is to let Groundspeak know we want them to bring back the kml, and to show that the contrived "200" member figure is completely false!

Edited by miniwhip
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One of the 200 as well that want to be able to keep using it.

 

I don't use it every day, more like once a week. But it is a good tool to have when I want to see an area. I hope the genius GSAK macro creators are working on this already, and creating a export macro to show caches using Google Earth.

 

Once its gone and people can use it any more, this topic is going to explode.

 

Why not have a notice placed in the weekly mass e-mail that gets sent to everyone and see what everyone thinks of it.

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I hope the genius GSAK macro creators are working on this already, and creating a export macro to show caches using Google Earth.

Any GPX file exported from GSAK can be viewed in Google Earth.

 

Any GPX file sent to you from Geocaching.com can be viewed in Google Earth.

 

No further development work is necessary.

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When I first posted I didn't realize how many other people missed the KML as much as I do.

 

While I know that there are other ways to see an "area", I've found that designing and creating a "one-time" query is sometimes limited compared to opening the KML and scanning around an area.

 

For multiple areas it's a no-brainer -- the KML wins every time as a planning tool.

 

I'm certainly one of "the 200" that really would appreciate the return of the KML download/open link.

 

I'd sign the petition, but now I see that THAT link is gone.

 

PLEASE! Restore the KML feature! PLEASE!

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If you guys seriously think Groundspeak is going to give a rats patootie what the petition says than you've been smoking way too much wacky tabacky.

 

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the KML will never come back. That is if it ever completely disappears in the first place :anitongue:

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If you guys seriously think Groundspeak is going to give a rats patootie what the petition says than you've been smoking way too much wacky tabacky.

 

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the KML will never come back. That is if it ever completely disappears in the first place :anitongue:

 

Spoken like a true Charter Member. Thanks for trying to set me straight, but I think I'll give it the old college try.

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Any GPX file exported from GSAK can be viewed in Google Earth.

 

Any GPX file sent to you from Geocaching.com can be viewed in Google Earth.

 

No further development work is necessary.

Tell me, is there any chance that the GPX export functionality, severely limited though it is, will become too much of a strain; will be removed in favour of a paper-based system that doesn't achieve the functionality which people rely on, expect, and pay a premium fee for - and that will occasion no further development work?

 

Your customers are speaking loudly here. There is a very strong need for further development work. The GS response to a clear outcry from paying customers has been horrendous. (No doubt several loyalists will point out the irrelevant lack of unanimousness.)

 

Hopefully TPTB are not so thin skinned that this, too, is censored. Hopefully, TPTB start to behave like a responsible commercial endeavour - for a commercial endeavour GS certainly is; one that strives to maintain a monopolistic hold on its industry. So be it; I have no qualms with the business model. I do expect better customer service. That some are willing to volunteer their time in support of a commercial enterprise does not obviate the customer's right to expect adherence to standards.

 

Removal of the GE KML marks a significant devaluation of the product. It's stunning how many deniers of this simple truth exist. We could do something easily and well, and now we can't. And many of us aren't happy. And the reply from the vendor has been terse, bordering on rude.

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I'm just curious about something and that's all really.

 

If the GS server is under a lot of strain, why not ask all of the Geocaching website Groups out there if they could help out by lending GS some of there (geocaching groups) server space as a way to help offset the strain on your server?

 

As compensation to the groups, why not offer them a few PM's to give away at there functions or some of the products that you sell.

 

I'm not sure how securing the info would be done, but I am sure that there are a lot of smart people out there that could figure it out.

I for one would be willing to help out if this is something that could be done.

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Removal of the GE KML marks a significant devaluation of the product. It's stunning how many deniers of this simple truth exist. We could do something easily and well, and now we can't. And many of us aren't happy. And the reply from the vendor has been terse, bordering on rude.

Groundspeak DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE 200 CHINDLREN!

 

This is not the first, nor will it be the last, time that Groundspeak has made a change to the features provided on Geocaching.com. There is no doubt that they realized the removal of the KML file would adversely reflect some users. This is why OpinioNate put a long explanation of reasons for the is decision in his release notes. Perhaps that only mistake he made was to make the claim that only 200 users regularly accessed this feature. Clearly many more than 200 made use of this feature on at least an occasional basis.

 

Since the KML file was first realeased, Groundspeak has made significant improvement to the Geocaching Google Maps functionality on the website. The ability to search using this maps now has capabilities that Groundspeak envisioned for the KML file, i.e., you can pan and zoom the maps to explore and find areas where there are caches you are interested in finding. In many ways, the Google Maps are "better" than the Google Earth KML file. Caches you have found are identified as are the caches you own and caches that are temporarily disabled. The caches are shown in their proper location, without the fudge factor in the KML file. Premium members can hide caches they have found or owned as well as hiding caches by types; and they can create a PQ for the caches on the map with one click.

 

Still there may be features on Google Earth that are "better". These include a easier to use interface for pan and zoom, 3D view, ability to show other overlays on the map such as GPS tracks or county boundaries, showing 150 caches selected randomly when you had more than 150 in the area instead of showing no caches when you have more that 500 and instead showing a message to adjust your zoom level. In addition, some people find Google Earth to be faster and more responsive. The Google Maps are Javascript based and on some browsers it takes a long time for the screen to refresh; some people report the Javascript locks up or they get a message that the script is taking too long to respond. Some browsers also appear to have problems printing the Google Maps.

 

I doubt that Groundspeak will bring back the KML file - at least not in the form it previously existed. In the past there have been a few times when they reversed a decision to remove a feature (most famously when they took away the found counts on the logs for a brief period). But in generally they realize that while there is an initial outcry, most people will adapt so long as there is a reasonable alternative. If the feature was costing them too much time in maintenance or had a disproportionate load on resources, they may decide to drop it and promote an alternative that may not be as good for some people. Rather than accusing Groundspeak of being insensitive to their customers, it would be more productive to point out the shortcomings of the alternatives they are proposing. This way they could apply the resources to improve these alternatives. I, for one, am hoping they see my suggestion for PQ preview in Google Earth and provide this alternative.

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hmmm, all kinds of posts deleted from this topic! Anyway, there is a petition out there. Google it, it should come up very soon. This forum is completely useless. Heaven forbid we disagree with the powers that be!

 

My postings were deleted too. Even got a warning from a mod!

Discussionforum? I don't think so :-(

 

What is GC afraid of?

 

BTW, webpages get found by search engines faster if linked too from other sites.

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I signed the petition. Does that mean my membership will be revoked or my downloads messed up.

 

A note to Groundspeak. Most of us users dont go on the message boards unless there is a problem...the more time i spend on the board the less time I spend geocaching....the Greatest hobby out there.

 

Cant we all just get along......

Edited by fsubartender
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I haven't got time to read this entire thread but, I do know that my 'premium membership' dues were to be coming up in the near future.

 

I use this feature very often, it is critical to my enjoyment of the hobby. This was the feature that interested me most since I am able to travel on a moments notice I would often open the kml in GE and grab site info for the area I was going to be in.

 

Wouldn't it be a simple matter to change this kml to a 'normally off' that would allow users to turn it on when desired?

 

How many pocket queries are we permitted daily?

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Hello,

 

I am a regular user (#300?) and Premium up to last february (too late with renewal).

I use the KML often! It is so fast for locating caches near work holiday or other destination.

After that I will plan the caches detailed. (The new map is not a replacement).

 

On my new computer I could not find the KML link anywhere. I noticed a KML link on the Waypoint site

telling me to become a Premium. I did that immediatly. Even than could not find the KML.

 

That was the time to log in the forum! Because I needed help!

 

Give us the KML back (after repairing it) and place it somewhere visible please.

I like to geocache not browsing endlessly for links.

 

Greetings,

 

Erik

The Netherlands

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Since the recent Account page updates, if you follow the instructions published on the site about google, the software is not available ?

 

If it has moved, can the instructions be updated.

If withdrawn, remove the commentary about Networked KML.

 

Yours

frustratedly...

 

Adrian

 

Please don't remove the KML connectivity to Google Earth - this is a awesome feature and I've used it extensively over the past couple of years...

 

David

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I'll try to read through this entire thread AGAIN to see why this feature was removed to begin with. There must be some logical reasoning?? Being among the thousands of the "200", I would at least like to know why this feature was removed.

 

I also want to try any other avenue that I can that might work. Would similar programs be something that GC might consider using - like World Wind or ArcGIS Explorer???

 

-= Dewski =-

In post #26 of this thread, robertlipe posted a link to the official announcement.

 

Here is the link again.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=219908

 

I read it...

Release:

9353: Remove Google Network KML Link from My Account Details

Discontinued support for Google Earth KML to improve site performance*

 

Excuse me if this sounds outta line, but the "site performance" hasn't changed one iota as far as I can tell. The only thing that is *MISSING* is the KML Link. :lol:

 

-= Dewski =-

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I'm one of the 200 as well. Seeing the caches in GE was awesome.

 

Anyone that compares requesting a PQ, waiting for it to arrive via email, then dragging it into GE... vs. being able to pan around the earth endlessly, having access to the cache icons, then left clicking, then clicking "view cache details" to bring up the web page... they must be out of touch... I mean really, are you kidding me?

 

Several ideas have been offered. One that seems to have the most promise was only allow the cache queries to the server if you are below a certain zoom level... I'm sure there were others.

 

If it's a bandwidth issue, optimize... the randomization of the caches probably took the most processing (and what was that for anyway if you don't do in in google maps?)

 

Bottom line is: it's a useful tool to way more than the 200 PAYING CUSTOMERS that you state. If it's not working well, fix it, don't abandon it.

Edited by SamSpade47
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I'll try to read through this entire thread AGAIN to see why this feature was removed to begin with. There must be some logical reasoning?? Being among the thousands of the "200", I would at least like to know why this feature was removed.

 

I also want to try any other avenue that I can that might work. Would similar programs be something that GC might consider using - like World Wind or ArcGIS Explorer???

 

-= Dewski =-

In post #26 of this thread, robertlipe posted a link to the official announcement.

 

Here is the link again.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=219908

 

I read it...

Release:

9353: Remove Google Network KML Link from My Account Details

Discontinued support for Google Earth KML to improve site performance*

 

Excuse me if this sounds outta line, but the "site performance" hasn't changed one iota as far as I can tell. The only thing that is *MISSING* is the KML Link. :lol:

 

-= Dewski =-

 

Obiwanmindtrick_small.jpg

These aren't the observations you think you see.

Move along.

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1 of 200 here.

 

No point in waiting for it to be gone to chime in. I use this a lot. It is the fastest way to do longer road trip planning. PQ's and export are really not a viable option here because of the limit on PQ's. The GC Googlemaps in the site are very nice but way too slow to look at bigger area and as has already been mentioned the ability to have my own overlays in GoogleEarth is extremely useful.

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I'll try to read through this entire thread AGAIN to see why this feature was removed to begin with. There must be some logical reasoning?? Being among the thousands of the "200", I would at least like to know why this feature was removed.

 

I also want to try any other avenue that I can that might work. Would similar programs be something that GC might consider using - like World Wind or ArcGIS Explorer???

 

-= Dewski =-

In post #26 of this thread, robertlipe posted a link to the official announcement.

 

Here is the link again.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=219908

 

I read it...

Release:

9353: Remove Google Network KML Link from My Account Details

Discontinued support for Google Earth KML to improve site performance*

 

Excuse me if this sounds outta line, but the "site performance" hasn't changed one iota as far as I can tell. The only thing that is *MISSING* is the KML Link. :lol:

 

-= Dewski =-

 

Obiwanmindtrick_small.jpg

These aren't the observations you think you see.

Move along.

 

Good one GOF! Let us just be honest with observations - to me it appears it has to do with protecting the database and thus the stranglehold. Too much data was released with the GE KML and some hacker could set up shop in some country where the laywers of GS could not touch and thus competition - no more monopoly. Oh well, perhaps not - but a real answer from TBTB besides the cryptive ones given so far would go a long way to putting this to rest. More likely I think they like controversy and are sitting back laughing good and hard watching this thread. Controvesy is part of the mystic of Groundspeak creation - no?

 

I love it!

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