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Misha

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

Edited by Misha
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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

 

:ph34r:

 

Actually, the Geocaching.com web site and the Groundspeak forums are part of a business, so the political analogy really doesn't fit too well. While I think I understand where you're coming from, it might help if you're a little more specific as to what you'd like to see from the user community in terms of responses to your initial post.

 

BTW, isn't letting the geocachers review the moderators something like letting the prisoners review the guards? :)

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You have the right to agree to the terms of use. Had you actually read them instead of just checking the box, "yes I agree" it would have dawned on you that this is a private company, not a "democratic organization". You aren't an owner.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

 

If after reading them, you don't agree, then don't agree. Which means you can't use the site.

I occasionally visit websites and skim the TOU and don't agree (usually over privacy issues). I don't use those sites...

Edited by Isonzo Karst
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If you have any complaints about cache reviewers or forum moderators, write to Groundspeak at the special address for this purpose: appeals @ geocaching.com. Your complaint will be received and evaluated by one of the Groundspeak employees who are responsible for supervising the work of the volunteers.

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This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

 

I don't disagree that it is somewhat dictatorial, but I don't know that I can agree that it must change. It's a business, not a democracy.

 

If enough voices are heard by TPTB and requests make sense to them and their business model, they'll act accordingly.

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

 

Cripes! :ph34r:

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

 

This is a privately owned business. There are no public stockholders, and the owners do not have to have your permission/blessing/agreement about anything.

 

If you don't like it, go play in another sandlot.

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

 

Oh stop it, I'll give you an Autocracy at best. And

being a military guy, Autocracies aren't all that bad. :ph34r:

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

 

I have one thing to say beyond all of the other replies (click to play, with speakers on).

 

- Mark

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

Yeah!!! I deserve the right to move into Bill Gates' house for a month and make sure that we get our rights and that he finally answers all the questions that never get answered even after flushing hours of our lives down the toilet with computer issues and being on the phone with "tech support".

 

Wooh, hoo! Power to the people!!!

 

:ph34r:

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This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

I agree !

 

We deserve the right to not have our DNFs deleted by retentive cache owners!

We deserve the right to powercache 150 finds in a day without retribution or deletion!

 

End the dictatorship !

 

:ph34r:

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

Lemme guess; Patriots fan?

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

M

From a call last night he sait that Keystone had revoked his posting rights, EEK!

 

Anyhow,

 

This is not a real business; it is an organization, a group, or an association or maybe just a click. He is right things need to open up; even businesses have an elected board. For some reason this Groundspeak lists as a private company, nothing is really private. Obviously the officials are worried about these actions because it equals a loss of control of the flock, or loss of loyal followers, or a loss of income. I have rebelled from the church for similar reasons that he states.

 

I hope a positive change results from this issue!

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This is not a real business; it is an organization, a group, or an association or maybe just a click. He is right things need to open up; even businesses have an elected board

 

:ph34r::):)

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I miss Auntie Weasel - anyone else thinking about how she would handle that post?)

 

note to WR_Treehugger - it is a "real business" and privately held companies don't have elected boards...

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note to WR_Treehugger - it is a "real business" and privately held companies don't have elected boards...

Actually, it depends on the legal structure of the company, but many privately held companies do have elected boards. However, board members are normally elected by the shareholders, not by customers or forum posters. :)

 

And I miss AuntieWeasel too. :ph34r:

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This is not a real business; it is an organization, a group, or an association or maybe just a click. He is right things need to open up; even businesses have an elected board
:ph34r::):)

 

(I miss Auntie Weasel - anyone else thinking about how she would handle that post?)

 

note to WR_Treehugger - it is a "real business" and privately held companies don't have elected boards...

I like to think that she might mention that it's 'clique'.

 

I also miss AW.

 

You know, since the same topics keep coming back over and over again, we should just pull up old threads with the same issues and cite AW's responses.

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

You also have the right to remain silent... Wait, wrong rights.

 

Umm... when you hold a majority of the stock of this company, you may change these and any other rules you see fit. What's that? it's a privately held company? Oh, guess that means Jeremy has all the stock, and he sets the rules. Sorry about your luck.

Now, take that big old chip off your shoulder, and move along.

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

Did you read the user agreement or just sign it?

Link to post

Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

Are you serious? you got picked last allot in sports didn't you.

Link to post
Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

I thought that this post fit nicely into the thread:
I don't know that there's intrinsically more justice in a committee than an individual. I would certainly rather be ruled by a single individual I trust than a committee of individuals I don't.

 

And one participant/one vote doesn't work, either. It just means 51% of the users can make 49% miserable, if they choose. What's the old saying about democracy being two wolves and a lamb arguing over what's for lunch?

 

Bottom line in my experience, if you engage in a group activity, sooner or later you will have to acquiesce to a decision you don't like. It's not something I necessarily do gracefully, but I've never seen any way around it.

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The forums are your voice for "rule" (guideline) changes.

 

There is an address to complain about mods and reviewers.

 

There is plently of peer review among the reviewers.

 

The forums also give a voice for who you want to see as mods and reviewers.

 

Please make use of the above with far more detail than your OP.

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Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

You also have the right to remain silent...

But apparently not the ability! :ph34r:

Link to post

Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

You also have the right to remain silent...

But apparently not the ability! :ph34r:

 

Somebody watches too much Comedy Central. :)

 

- Mark

Link to post

Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

This organization is a private enterprise. No more. No less.

 

Are you willing to put your money and time where your mouth is?

Link to post

Hello Geocachers;

 

We deserve the right to review moderators!

We deserve the right to review the reviewers!

We deserve the right to elect the board of governors!

We deserve the right to review our rules!

 

People please stand up for your rights!

It should be through a standard form vote, not random mumblings in email.

 

This organization is not democratic it is a dictatorship, and that must change.

 

M

One of the funniest posts I have read in a while! :ph34r::)

Thanks!

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Jeremey's ball, Jeremey's bat, Jeremey's field. He gets to set the rules and distribute company earnings as he sees fit, whether to advance GC.com or develop new games and ideas, or buy sacks of peanuts to distribute to the players and fans. I'll pay my three bucks and enjoy myself. Never tried Waymarking, it just doesn't look like much fun to me, and Wherigo looks like RPG meets the real world and I never have cared about D&D. Nor do I want to buy even more gear in addition to GPS & PDA I already have.

like Sonny sez on Podcacher "keep on cachin'"

hairball

Edited by hairball45
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note to WR_Treehugger - it is a "real business" and privately held companies don't have elected boards...

Actually, it depends on the legal structure of the company, but many privately held companies do have elected boards. However, board members are normally elected by the shareholders, not by customers or forum posters. :ph34r:

 

And I miss AuntieWeasel too. :)

 

Groundspeak is incorporated. They have a board.

 

And I miss the weasel.

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Don't look at Groundspeak as a Political Body, it is a company. One of serveral that provide listings of Caches all over the world. The fact that it is the largest and most successfull says wonders as to how well run it is.

 

If you went in to Macys, would you demand the right to review their Sales Associates or Managers, select what stock they put on their shelfs or what the charge for it?

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I want a pony!

 

How about just some assinine demands? :blink:

 

This isn't the asinine demands thread? oops. :lol:

 

assinine demands would be if I wanted a donkey.

 

(Snide equine-related remark voluntarily removed)

Edited by markewallace
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Just because the OP was rather disrespectful in his choice of words, this does not give other posters the right to be disrespectful. Take issue with the opinions (as many have done), but resist the urge to attack the person who holds the opinion. This includes name-calling. Thank you.

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Just because the OP was rather disrespectful in his choice of words, this does not give other posters the right to be disrespectful. Take issue with the opinions (as many have done), but resist the urge to attack the person who holds the opinion. This includes name-calling. Thank you.

 

Oh, fair enough. You're right.

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I agree with the opinions stated above that support the OP's statement. There have been a number of times that the Moderators have made statements or effected actions, and in the appeals process, nothing changed or was done.

 

As a matter of fact, I can't think of one time I have ever heard of anyone indicating a decision by a moderator has been changed by TPTB. So I'm not sure if there is even a point to having that address, other than as a rubber stamp to say "Yup, what they did was fine, regardless of how it affected you".

 

Often, their "appeals process" takes longer than the suspension involved, which makes it worthless. They certainly aren't going to say "we were wrong, here... have a pass good for a free no-suspension-for-7-days since that was what you were wrongly stopped from posting for." - I don't see that happening even in the slightest.

 

I had an issue months back - I even ended up calling the company, and never received the calls back that I was promised through Email. I understand the site has a set of rules we agree to. But so did AT&T - just because they said it was this specific way, when they got to the point where they had a monopoly, the government finally stepped in and said "nope - you gotta follow our rules".

 

I would have to say at this point that GC.com has a monopoly. Yes, there are other listing sites, but none come close to comparing to the size of the database that GC.com maintains (or stores, or keeps to themselves, (referencing the recent PQ size and number limit thread)).

 

And yes, this is a game site, not a utility like a phone company. But that doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want to. If they get enough people mad, they lose business, and this isn't a good business model. (yes, some of you will say "Its their business, they can do what they want", and yes they can - but no business should ever ignore their customers...)

 

The OP has a legitimate point. Leaving doesn't address that point - it just lets TPTB continue to do whatever they want that people disagree with.

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I read the other thread until my eyes bled.

 

Glad to see that the overwhelming sense of entitlement that I see lately isn't isolated to the US. :D

 

It was a simple request/directive given with explanations on other ways they could do things.

 

Anybody interested in the menu could find it easily enough if the OP didn't want to use one of the methods listed. Those that can't find the menu online, aren't likely to be able to program coords into a GPS and navigate to GZ anyway...

 

This reads to me like the "cause of the week". It's not that big of an issue, really. Pick your battles and spend your energy where it is worth it.

 

And yeah, it's easy to say "if you don't like it, leave". It's the truth. People choose to use this website, and the argument that "it's the only one" is just a cop-out. If you feel that strongly, take a stand and take your membership fees and leave.

 

It's easy to take a stand with words. Nobody is going to stop using this site because of this issue. Heck, they won't even stop paying their membership fees because the majority can't live without the PM benefits.

 

Jump off the bandwagon and put some effort towards something worthwhile arguing over.

 

</rant>

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I would have to say at this point that GC.com has a monopoly.

 

Oh boy, this one got me going. GC.com is NOT a monopoly.. A monopoly is a situation where there is only 1 option for a particular product in a marketplace. For instance, the early days of telephones. There was only one telephone provider, and it was impossible for any other companies to get into the market and compete.

 

1) How does GC.com prevent other companies from competing in the market?

2) How can GC.com be considered a monopoly when there are clearly other companies competing in the market? (not very well mind you).

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1) How does GC.com prevent other companies from competing in the market?

 

By deleting your cache listing if you also list it on one of the competitive sites. That is akin to the days of when Ma Bell refused to allow competitive phone companies to use their lines. Until the government stepped in and forced them to.

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1) How does GC.com prevent other companies from competing in the market?

 

By deleting your cache listing if you also list it on one of the competitive sites. That is akin to the days of when Ma Bell refused to allow competitive phone companies to use their lines. Until the government stepped in and forced them to.

So Terracaching.com is a monopoly? News to me. That is the only cache listing site with a reputation for archiving caches that are cross-listed. There is nothing in the Geocaching.com listing guidelines which mandate the archival of a listing for the sole reason that it is cross-listed. There would have to be another problem with the listing.

Edited by Keystone
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I agree with the opinions stated above that support the OP's statement. There have been a number of times that the Moderators have made statements or effected actions, and in the appeals process, nothing changed or was done.

If the moderator or cache reviewer acted correctly and in accordance with Groundspeak's wishes, then it follows logically that nothing would change or nothing would be done.

 

As a matter of fact, I can't think of one time I have ever heard of anyone indicating a decision by a moderator has been changed by TPTB. So I'm not sure if there is even a point to having that address, other than as a rubber stamp to say "Yup, what they did was fine, regardless of how it affected you".

I have seen several decisions, including my own, overturned or modified as a result of the appeals process. The forum guidelines and cache listing guidelines can be complex and subject to varying interpretations. It is nice to have Groundspeak easily accessible via a special address for the purpose of double-checking these situations.

 

When my decision is reversed by Groundspeak, I treat it as a learning experience. I do what I'm asked to do, and I don't hold a grudge against the person who exercised their appeal rights. The right to appeal is very important.

 

You tend to see forum threads complaining when a decision is not reversed by Groundspeak. Rarely is there a thread where someone comes in to say that they exercised their appeal rights and were very happy that Groundspeak reversed the decision of the volunteer cache reviewer. That is human nature. Just because you don't see forum threads about it, doesn't mean that the appeals process isn't working to make corrections when necessary.

Edited by Keystone
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