Holiday (vacation) caches

[+riviouveur]

Hi,

 

I'm the main reviewer for France, although much of what I have to say in this post is applicable to Spain, Italy, etc.

 

It's coming round to that time of year again, when people start to go on holiday, with thoughts of finding caches... and sometimes, leaving one behind, to immortalise a romantic view, etc etc.

 

If that last bit sounds like you, please re-read the relevant section of the cache placement guidelines.

 

Got that? If not, let me recap some of the points in there:

 

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically

"Periodically" means "more than once a year". Quite a bit more than once a year, in fact. Our rule of thumb is: if the cache is found once every X months, you should be able to get to maintain it within X months. (This is a rule of thumb, not a point for legal-style discussion!)

 

... caches may not be published unless you are able to demonstrate an acceptable maintenance plan.

Examples of unacceptable maintenance plans include:

• "Our friends who live nearby will maintain the cache" (I always thought most cachers were level-headed people, but I'm amazed how many of them have "friends" who turn out to exist only in their heads)
  
• "No need for maintenance, the cache is muggle-proof" (puh-leeze)
  
• "My mother-in-law lives only 10 miles away and I'm sure she will maintain the cache, although she has no e-mail address" (And does she have a GPSr to go back and find the 2-mile error in the coordinates?)
  

For example, if you have made arrangements with a local geocacher to watch over your distant cache for you, that geocacher’s name should be mentioned on your cache page.

Having a local geocacher maintain your cache is a good idea. It helps if the local geocacher really exists. From time to time I get submissions which will be maintained by a "cacher" whose account has been created the same day as the cache, has no hides or finds, has not logged in since the day the account was created, and can't understand the e-mails which I send them in French. Funny that.

 

Oh, and please don't try this old favourite: "The cache has someone else's TB in it, so if you don't publish it, the TB's owner will be unhappy, and it will be your fault". It's up to you to explain to the TB's owner why you placed their TB in a cache that didn't have a chance of being published. (In fact, formally, you shouldn't drop a TB in a cache until it's been published anyway.)

 

Most of the above applies to any destination. For the specific case of France, yes, there aren't that many caches (we have about the same density that the UK did in June 2003), but we're doing fine growing our numbers of local caches and cachers by ourselves (350 cachers signed up on the French site, with only 3 or 4 UK ex-pats). I archive several vacation caches per month before publication, and 80% of the caches which I archive because they have gone missing or become trash, were placed by holidaymakers - most of whom probably started off with very good intentions.

 

If you have any questions about this, please feel free to ask me (or the reviewer for the country which you will be visiting) at any time - but preferably before you place your cache.

 

Thanks for your time spent reading this!

riviouveur - "Groundspeak Volunteer Reviewer" pour la France.

 

PS: I appreciate that a large percentage of cachers never come to the forums, but I'm posting this here anyway in the hope that it will make some difference. Please feel free to talk about this issue during any dull moments which may arise at the next event you attend.

Edited May 16, 2007 by riviouveur

[+Mr'D]

Sorry, I am unsure what your point is? You have obviosuly spent a lot of time in typing your post but I cannot see what 'difference' you are trying to achieve.

 

Jon

[+walkergeoff and wife]

Sorry, I am unsure what your point is? You have obviosuly spent a lot of time in typing your post but I cannot see what 'difference' you are trying to achieve.

 

Jon

Isn't he complaining about thoughtless cache setting by holidaymakers, and, by posting here, he must have had a few experiences with UK cachers?

Edited May 16, 2007 by walkergeoff

[+davy boy]

Unusual to see a french reviewer on here!!!

There are i think some genuine holiday caches out there also with genuine real people who will maintain them,i have real people looking after mine!!!!!

[+Wadders]

PS: I appreciate that a large percentage of cachers never come to the forums, but I'm posting this here anyway in the hope that it will make some difference. Please feel free to talk about this issue during any dull moments which may arise at the next event you attend.

 

The only thing i think this post will do is wind people up, oh and Puh...leeese believe me i'm sure it will!!!

[+riviouveur]

Sorry, I am unsure what your point is? You have obviosuly spent a lot of time in typing your post but I cannot see what 'difference' you are trying to achieve.

 

Jon

Isn't he complaining about thoughtless cache setting by holidaymakers, and, by posting here, he must have ahd a few experiences with UK cachers?

 

Got it in one. I'm hoping that people who might otherwise place vacation caches, thus wasting their time and the reviewers', will at least think about not doing so, or checking with a reviewer before they set out, or putting together a proper maintenance plan. If I didn't make that sufficiently clear, I apologise.

[+Mr'D]

Yes however the lack of a specific plea makes this hard reading.

 

The jist is read the guidelines before placing a holiday cache.

 

Jon

[+Mr'D]

riviouveur - have you done only 8 posts since Nov 06 as a reviewer?

 

Jon

[+riviouveur]

Yes however the lack of a specific plea makes this hard reading.

 

The jist is read the guidelines before placing a holiday cache.

 

The gist I had in my head at the time of writing it was more like "Thinking of placing a holiday cache? Think again!" (or "Just Say No"), but I suspect this would have wound the people Wadders was referring to up, even more.

 

riviouveur - have you done only 8 posts since Nov 06 as a reviewer?

 

Yes, but that's mainly because the French cachers hang out in a forum on their national site (geocaching-france.com), so I don't have much rapping of knuckles to do. Although they have recently started having fights, and we came close to our first-ever public geocide the other day, so it feels like we're becoming a proper geocaching community now.

Edited May 16, 2007 by riviouveur

[NickPick]

riviouveur - have you done only 8 posts since Nov 06 as a reviewer?

 

Jon

 

The 'french speaking' forum is quite low volume. Especially when compared to the UK one.

 

Yes however the lack of a specific plea makes this hard reading.

 

The jist is read the guidelines before placing a holiday cache.

 

Jon

 

I thought that aswell, but since an awful lot of people probably don't, I also thought it was a well intentioned reminder together with a humourous list of the ways in which people try to pretend that they are meeting the guidelines, and how the local reviewer will check things such as the 'local cacher' really exist.

 

I also found it particularly funny as I'm working in Folkestone for 2 weeks and was thinking about a quick daytrip to Calais, but when I noticed there are not many caches there (mostly virtuals set by holiday makers), I had a momentary thought of "I could set one, pretend a local is looking after it.... etc. etc."

[Alan White]

I've looked around the other country-specific forums and I can't see this message in any of the others. So why is this apparent French reviewer trying to wind up just UK cachers?

 

Or is this really just a troll I'm helping to feed?

[+Team Sieni]

The gist I had in my head at the time of writing it was more like "Thinking of placing a holiday cache? Think again!" (or "Just Say No")

Yup, that came across pretty clearly to me on first reading. I thought you put it quite well.

 

I remember, when I first discovered geocaching, thinking how great it would be to place a cache at some of the nice places that I visit from time to time. Then I read the boring practical details of what you really have to do when placing a cache (landowner permission, maintenance visits ...) and it didn't seem such a grand idea.

[+riviouveur]

I've looked around the other country-specific forums and I can't see this message in any of the others. So why is this apparent French reviewer trying to wind up just UK cachers?

 

Or is this really just a troll I'm helping to feed?

 

I'll let you work out from the published notices on the last 900 French caches if I'm a troll or not.

 

If it's only here for now, it's partly because I'm working on the translations into Dutch and German (the languages of the countries which, along with the UK and Ireland give the most problems), partly because those forums are not the best way to contact cachers in .de/.nl/.be, partly because I forgot Ireland, and partly because I thought I'd test it out here first.

 

However, I'm really not sure why I'm being accused of winding people up here. If you are the kind of person who reads and respects the guidelines, please feel free to ignore this whole thread; but you might be surprised how many people don't.

[+careygang]

So do French cachers get a lot of trouble with Truffle seeking Pigs muggling their caches????

[+Simply Paul]

While the guidelines are being quoted:

If you have special circumstances, please describe your maintenance plan on your cache page. For example, if you have made arrangements with a local geocacher to watch over your distant cache for you, that geocacher’s name should be mentioned on your cache page.

If you must place a cache in France, make sure a nice French cacher is happy to look after it for you, include their name on the page and let the reviewer know the details via a reviewers note. In the spirit of Imperialism, there are parts of the world where caching may never have taken off if it wasn't for vacation caches set by a national of another country. France isn't one of those places though

 

Edit: Now the original poster has amended their post, mine is less relevant. Please pay it no heed.

Edited May 16, 2007 by Simply Paul

[Lactodorum]

Riviouveur is a well known and respected reviewer covering France. I'm guessing he felt it more appropriate to approach UK geocachers directly rather than involve the UK reviewers. I wonder if it would make sense to post similar messages in the German and other national forums covering countries where holidaymakers to France tend to come from.

 

I also wonder if I should make a similar posting on the USA regional forums as we tend to get a number of holiday caches placed by predominently American cachers. Although thinking about it further, maybe I'll let the American reviewers remind their own people as it could easily get out of hand.

Edited May 16, 2007 by Lactodorum

[+careygang]

Riviouveur is a well known and respected reviewer covering France. I'm guessing he felt it more appropriate to approach UK geocachers directly rather than involve the UK reviewers. I wonder if it would make sense to post similar messages in the German and other national forums covering countries where holidaymakers to France tend to come from.

 

I also wonder if I should make a similar posting on the USA regional forums as we tend to get a number of holiday caches placed by predominently American cachers.

 

Could be. I guess that the big holiday attraction areas like Windsor and central London might suffer with a lot, but I've not seen any up here in the forgotten wastelands of the Mast Midlands.

I think Riviouveur deserves praise for his command of English if nothing else. I've seen worse writing from people who have it as a first language. And nobody has risen to the bait of my Truffle Pigs yet, it must be a quite night.

Of course the danger is that we end up making such posts everywhere. How do we decide which National/Regional Forum deserves the input? Perhaps who should just get the main guidelines more prominently posted so that people actually read them...

Edited May 16, 2007 by careygang

[+Mr'D]

I think Riviouveur deserves praise for his command of English if nothing else.

I agree. However I do wonder if his email is a frustrated response to one particular cache placed by a UK cacher?

[+sTeamTraen]

In the spirit of Imperialism, there are parts of the world where caching may never have taken off if it wasn't for vacation caches set by a national of another country. France isn't one of those places though

 

<Poor analogy alert>

 

When my son was 2, he used to think it was fun if Daddy helped him to put his jumper on. Now he's nearly 18, I don't think he would take too kindly to me offering.

 

<End of poor analogy>

[+third-degree-witch]

[+Jimblonduk]

Wouldn't it have been easier for a note to have been posted to all of the nations reviewers to post a reminder for this in their own forums rather than one reviewer having to translate into many differing languages. At least then the reminder would come from someone we are all familiar with and it would have been taken in the correct context. Just my tuppenny worth

[+riviouveur]

Wouldn't it have been easier for a note to have been posted to all of the nations reviewers to post a reminder for this in their own forums rather than one reviewer having to translate into many differing languages. At least then the reminder would come from someone we are all familiar with and it would have been taken in the correct context. Just my tuppenny worth

 

It would... had this been an initiative of Groundspeak. But it isn't. It was just an idea I had, after reviewing two "difficult" vacation caches this week. One comment I received was "be glad I don't know where you live". That wasn't from a UK cacher, you'll be glad to hear.

[Alan White]

However, I'm really not sure why I'm being accused of winding people up here.

You need to look at it from the point of view of a reader. You post, in another country's forum, a long, insulting and accusatory "reminder" about the guidelines, without any apparent justification, from a relatively new account which sounds a little bit like a translation of "reviewer" and with only a handful of posts.

 

Worse, you aim it only at one particular country and implicitly accuse everyone in that country of being liars because you won't believe them if they tell you that their holiday cache is being looked after by someone in that country.

 

Sorry, but the whole tone of your OP stinks, and is just bound to wind people up. It tars an entire nation (well, four actually) with the same brush just because you've had a problem with a couple of holiday caches this week.

 

I'm no diplomat (you can probably tell ) but here's a suggested rephrasing:

"Hi, I'm riviouveur, one of the French reviewers. I know that many of you will be visiting France during the holidays and I'm sure you'll want to do some caching and maybe even place one. If you do place one, I'll be happy to review it for you. Do please remember that I must be satisfied that there's adequate maintenance arrangements in place. Thanks for visiting France, and thank you in advance for helping to make my task easier."

[+riviouveur]

here's a suggested rephrasing:

 

Thanks for your input - I've made some changes to the original post along those lines, which I hope will make things clearer.

[+rutson]

If I didn't know said reviewer quite well (OK, only online and in his other persona) I'd've taken it exactly like most other people. But I do, and I understand his sentiments. I do agree the wording could be better though.

[+Team Sieni]

You need to look at it from the point of view of a reader. You post, in another country's forum, a long, insulting and accusatory "reminder" about the guidelines, without any apparent justification, from a relatively new account which sounds a little bit like a translation of "reviewer" and with only a handful of posts.

Well, everyone's free to hold their own opinions but I read the OP and did not feel insulted or accused. Not in the least.

 

I understood where the OP was coming from. I smiled a bit at the hyperbole. I smiled a bit at my own foolishness of having thought up impractical vacation caches.

 

implicitly accuse everyone in that country of being liars

Did I read that correctly? Accuse everyone in that country of being liars

 

Calm down a bit, please.

 

By the way, to check if the OP really is a reviewer I decided to guess a co-ordinate in France. I figured that N50 W1 is probably in France. It wasn't a great guess, being in the sea off the Normandy coast, but it turned out I that the 2nd 3rd and 4th caches closest to this point are all published by him. Not difficut.

 

Some people have reacted badly, which reflects both on the OP and, in my very humble opinion, on them.

[+harrogate hunters]

May I please make a comment re 'holiday caches'.

 

A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of having a work contract in Nice, Southern France that asked me to attend Nice over a period of 2 years roughly every two to three months. (e.g. 8 times in two years)

 

I asked to place a cache in Nice and eventually persuaded the reviewer at the time it was not a standard Holiday Cache.

 

My main aim was introduce caching into that part of the world... prior to my placement there was no caches at all within 30 miles.

 

A year after placement I had the pleasure of transferring ownership of the cache to a new local cacher....

 

Today the cache has been visited by over 200 cachers from countries all over the world, and more importatly there is now an active group of cachers in the area.... purely started from one of the cachers who found out about caching... and went out to find my cache.... hooked !

 

Today there are over 40 caches in 20 miles !!

 

So although I understand about about holiday caches... but reviewers please dont just discount caches placed in France by English cachers !!!!

[+The Blorenges]

You need to look at it from the point of view of a reader. You post, in another country's forum, a long, insulting and accusatory "reminder" about the guidelines, without any apparent justification, from a relatively new account which sounds a little bit like a translation of "reviewer" and with only a handful of posts.

 

Worse, you aim it only at one particular country and implicitly accuse everyone in that country of being liars because you won't believe them if they tell you that their holiday cache is being looked after by someone in that country.

 

Sorry, but the whole tone of your OP stinks, and is just bound to wind people up. It tars an entire nation (well, four actually) with the same brush just because you've had a problem with a couple of holiday caches this week.

 

From the POV of this reader, who has read through the OP carefully (twice) I would like to put on record that I disagree with all the above comments.

 

I consider that the OP addressed an important issue in an amusing "tongue in cheek" manner. It gave me cause to chuckle and I found nothing offensive in the "reminder".

 

MrsB

[+riviouveur]

Today the cache has been visited by over 200 cachers from countries all over the world, and more importatly there is now an active group of cachers in the area.... purely started from one of the cachers who found out about caching... and went out to find my cache.... hooked !

 

I want to say here, "that's my point entirely": you had a coherent maintenance plan which was followed up (the cache in question, GCJX2H, has already been replaced at least twice) and you were able to convince the reviewer of this. Also, you were already a well-established cacher.

 

To make you feel more proud still: on Saturday there will be "the" annual French event (yes, we only have one major event per year - but there are 22 new caches for it) and it will be held in the South of France, about 200km from Nice. Some of the Nice area cachers will be there.

 

It could be that the people who I want to read the guidelines more carefully, are not in this forum. I wish I could show you some of the caches which we have to reject; it amounts to nearly 10% of the caches which are submitted. And on the occasions when such a cache gets through, it's very, very common that it is never found, even one time, because there was a coordinate error, or the cache was made of a cardboard coffee jar and got wet (vacation caches are often "improvised").

 

I'm sorry if my "ironic" approach in my original posting upset anyone. In France we are used to a very informal approach in online forums (even if the rest of the time we sometimes seem to have a very stiff way of working); for example, everyone is called "tu" straight away in a forum, whereas it is always "vous" in real life.

[+Us 4 and Jess]

One comment I received was "be glad I don't know where you live". That wasn't from a UK cacher, you'll be glad to hear.

 

 

That's awful reviewers shouldn't have to take that crap

 

But on a lighter not we in the UK are glad we don't know where our reviewers live or it would cost us a fortune in beer/wine/backhanders

 

M

Edited May 16, 2007 by Us 4 and Jess

[+scottpa100]

I struggle to understand how people are getting frustrated by the French reviewers post. Targeting the UK does make sense. France is the second most popular tourist destination for Britons, after all lots of people may well drive through it on their way to the most popular tourist destination. Spain.

 

I digress. The reviewer was just doing a request of asking people to abide to the rules. And if had just done that, would have come across as short and rude. By outlining with examples and some mild humour, I think its a perfectly acceptable posting.

[+wizard1974uk]

[+Birdman-of-liskatraz]

I totally agree with MrsB. I read the original post and wasn't in the least bit offended. France is a quick trip across the sea and no doubt a popular holiday destination for many Brits. Seemed a fair enough request to me.

 

And like others, I've thought of placing a holiday cache.. in face I'm off to a small far distant island over the sea this coming weekend and would love to leave a cache behind - but had enough sense to check with a local how feasible that would be - the answer "Not very", so no holiday cache for me.

[+Bambography]

I realise that I have only read the OPs amended post but I fail to see how several people are taking this out of all proportion.

I read a well intended, polite, slightly amusing request for holiday makers to carefully consider whether the cache they wish to place before they leave is a good idea. The point was quite clear that pretending to have someone local to maintain the cache is not good for the cache, or caching in general and that unless you have a varified local cacher to maintain then you are very likely to have the cache archived. Therefore to avoid geolitter don't leave it there in the first place. Shame people always have to get on their high-horse and assume everything is a dig/negative!

[+wizard1974uk]

[+Hobo2]

Sorry, I am unsure what your point is? You have obviosuly spent a lot of time in typing your post but I cannot see what 'difference' you are trying to achieve.

 

Jon

 

He is trying to express the fact that too many people place caches just for the fun of it, without regard to the rules. If you place a cache, you must be able to maintain it.

 

riviouvevr, don’t listen to the smart as*** here, I know and agree with what you are saying. I have also seen people who have as many as 50 or more (we wont say who), caches. How in the heck could someone maintain that many? Do they spend 50 days out of the year looking after all there caches, instead of out finding some? I have already ran across some caches that obviously aren’t maintained at all. I think you are right, if your not going to fallow the rules by taking the responsibility of maintaining your cache, don’t play the game.

[+Stuey]

I think Riviouveur deserves praise for his command of English if nothing else.

 

Either Google translate or Bablefish are much improved since I last used them, or something else........ Vive La France, Mange Tout, L'Arc de Triomphe.

[+Simply Paul]

Can I request Wizard1974uk has his popcorn smiley confiscated please?

[+sssss]

i think more holiday caches should be placed abroad by the english/british/scotish/welsh and northern irish,

 

mainly because the cache page might be in english and would save me having to translate it ....

[+Skadhi]

riviouveur Yesterday, 08:28 PM Post #24

 

Thanks for your input - I've made some changes to the original post along those lines, which I hope will make things clearer.

 

 

 

En mon avie, c'etait bien fait, c'etait bien dit...

Tu es bienvenue ici, Riviouveur.

 

Je crois qu'il ya des nez trop fragiles ici, Il pleut toujours, c'est difficile aller chasser les caches quand il pleut!!

 

Skadhi

Edited May 17, 2007 by Skadhi

[markandlynn]

 

En mon avie, c'etait bien fait, c'etait bien dit...

Tu es bienvenue ici, Riviouveur.

 

Je crois qu'il ya des nez trop fragiles ici, Il pleut toujours, c'est difficile aller chasser les caches quand il pleut!!

 

Skadhi

Easy for you to say.

 

We only have one experience of a holiday cache it was 0.3 miles from the stated co ordinates and we were first to find over a year after it had been hidden.

 

Kind of made the point for us

Edited May 17, 2007 by markandlynn

[+Skadhi]

Edited previous post to clarify meaning....

[Deceangi]

i think more holiday caches should be placed abroad by the english/british/scotish/welsh and northern irish,

 

mainly because the cache page might be in english and would save me having to translate it ....

 

What so the reviewers for the area of the cache placement have their workload increased reviewing caches placed in a location which might have a permission agreement or has banned caches altogether. By someone who will never return to the area, and which if published could affect caching in the area for local cachers?

 

Works both ways, Non UK cachers coming into the UK and possibly placing a cache in a area which has banned caching altogether, and on discovery by the landowner who vocally makes a complaint. Has the knock on result on other landowner agreements currently in progress or one that has to be renegotiated at set periods.

 

In the UK we're lucky in that we don't see many caches placed by Non UK Vacationers, and a large majority of them are Virtual cache submissions.

 

You'd be annoyed if a vacationer placed a cache in your area which then caused a major landowner to pull all the caches on their land. Do a search on the New Forest or look at Banned Cache area for areas affected by caches placed by UK cachers. Now imagine the affect if it was a cache placed by a Vacationer on a once in a lifetime visit.

 

Reviewers in all areas work hard to protect the area that they are responsible for from caches causing major issues.

[+Haggis Hunter]

Sorry, I am unsure what your point is? You have obviosuly spent a lot of time in typing your post but I cannot see what 'difference' you are trying to achieve.

 

Jon

snip...................................

 

riviouvevr, don’t listen to the smart as*** here, I know and agree with what you are saying ..............snip

It really doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with Mr Dewdrop or not! His point was put across politely. There is certainly no requirement to address someone or people as such in the forums. Even if you have inserted *'s the meaning is still there.

 

Edit for spelling

Edited May 17, 2007 by Haggis Hunter

[+wizard1974uk]

[+purple_pineapple]

i think more holiday caches should be placed abroad by the english/british/scotish/welsh and northern irish,

 

mainly because the cache page might be in english and would save me having to translate it ....

 

What so the reviewers for the area of the cache placement have their workload increased reviewing caches placed in a location which might have a permission agreement or has banned caches altogether. By someone who will never return to the area, and which if published could affect caching in the area for local cachers?

 

Works both ways, Non UK cachers coming into the UK and possibly placing a cache in a area which has banned caching altogether, and on discovery by the landowner who vocally makes a complaint. Has the knock on result on other landowner agreements currently in progress or one that has to be renegotiated at set periods.

 

In the UK we're lucky in that we don't see many caches placed by Non UK Vacationers, and a large majority of them are Virtual cache submissions.

 

You'd be annoyed if a vacationer placed a cache in your area which then caused a major landowner to pull all the caches on their land. Do a search on the New Forest or look at Banned Cache area for areas affected by caches placed by UK cachers. Now imagine the affect if it was a cache placed by a Vacationer on a once in a lifetime visit.

 

Reviewers in all areas work hard to protect the area that they are responsible for from caches causing major issues.

 

I think ssssss was joking

 

Personally, I'm in favour of ALL cache pages requiring an english description, preferably at the top. After all, English is the international language of 'navigation' in air and on sea... All in favour, say 'aye'!!

[+Kryten]

Personally, I'm in favour of ALL cache pages requiring an english description, preferably at the top. After all, English is the international language of 'navigation' in air and on sea... All in favour, say 'aye'!!

 

Non

[Lactodorum]

I think ssssss was joking

 

Personally, I'm in favour of ALL cache pages requiring an english description, preferably at the top. After all, English is the international language of 'navigation' in air and on sea... All in favour, say 'aye'!!

Now I hope YOU are joking!

[+PopUpPirate]

 

There's an amnesty for that kind of thing

[+Happy Humphrey]

Having just read through this thread, I admire riviouveur's sangfroid when replying to the puzzlingly hostile reaction I observed.

 

I've found quite a few French caches over the last few years (including the Harrogate Hunters' excellent micro in Nice), and agree that it is definitely time to put an end to the holiday cache in this part of the world. As Simply Paul mentioned (I think), caching in France has developed beyond the point where encouragement by foreigners is required.

 

I must say that I quite like the holiday cache in places where there are hardly any geocaches: there's an extra challenge in attempting to locate a cracked ice-cream container in a thorn bush at the back of a beach somewhere obscure in Kefalonia or somewhere. Particularly when no-one has logged it in a year, the coordinates are dodgy and the description is badly translated from the original - but even a bad cache can sow a seed of interest in the pastime. Once there's a healthy interest in the area it's time to retire the lame old-timers though and encourage the holidaymakers to find but not hide.

 

HH