+WWC-World's Worst Cacher Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I guess I would first like to say that we are all in the geocoin thing together and largely traveling uncharted waters... I disagree with this. The geocoin thing has been going on for almost 3 years now. We all know what to expect wheather people think so or not. Thank you Hmm . . well I guess I do think it is uncharted waters because the state of geocoin making and collecting has evolved hugely over just the last year. - The very fact that you state "whether people think so or not" suggests that many are in fact, in uncharted territory. Quote Link to comment
+CoinsAndPins Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I guess I would first like to say that we are all in the geocoin thing together and largely traveling uncharted waters... I disagree with this. The geocoin thing has been going on for almost 3 years now. We all know what to expect wheather people think so or not. Thank you Hmm . . well I guess I do think it is uncharted waters because the state of geocoin making and collecting has evolved hugely over just the last year. - The very fact that you state "whether people think so or not" suggests that many are in fact, in uncharted territory. Disagree again. Once you start a business, there are certain standards and ethics that must be followed; it is not a matter of feeling things out for a while. We have certain business clients that we don't even have to ask if we can use their coins as samples, because we know just by the type of business they have that their samples should not be distributed by anyone but themselves. It is the same with geocoins and has been for at least the last 2 years. Of course there have been changes in the market, but the basics of business ethics has never changed. Disclaimer: Just to clear any possible misunderstanding, none of my posts in this thread are in any way directed or intended as an attack at any coin brokers. Quote Link to comment
+Anthus Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 Below is the response I just received from the Geocoinstore. I'm posting this in case any of the other coin owners involved in this incident want to contact the mint for their dies. There was no mention of what is happening to the blank samples. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Message From The Geocoin Store 1170181976 From: "Geocoin Support Team" <info@geocoinclub.com> Date: Thu, February 01, 2007 8:51 pm Hi Stacy, If you want the physical dies you are free to take it up with the factory that minted them, www.scorpion.com.hk the order number should be on your original artwork or someone can look it up for you. You might also try asking them what the order total was and I think you will find that 9 blanks were made not 15 but that is going on memory and you don't believe me anyways so I won't waste your time. Quote Link to comment
+WWC-World's Worst Cacher Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Unfortunately there are some people who would prefer to stir the pot than resolve the issue and this is unfortunate. It hurts the forums, it hurts Geocaching and it hurts the world of geocoins. One Final thing. It is not uncommon for the factory to keep some coins that they will then send to prospective customers. I have in my possession two un-umbered geocoins that were sent to me as samples by the factory. I agree with everything you said in your post except a few things here. It's not the people who bring the issues to the forums who hurt the community and coins. It's the PRACTICE that started the whole thing that is the problem. Why blame the person who was hurt in this for airing thier grievance? This practice would have have continued on had this not come to light. And I don't think that anything that has to do with coins hurts geocaching one bit. What started off as a sig item for caching has turned into it's own hobby and money-making venture (reference the number of new coin stores and brokers popping up lately). At this point, coins and caching are becoming two seperate entities and that saddens me. As for the mint sending you (the broker) a COUPLE of sample coins - that's not a problem. Nobody here has an issue with that. It's the excess quantities. That all being said, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread locked down until the broker in question comes in to provide his POV. This could easily be spun into another generic thread (sample coins, extra coins, etc.) since this thread is supposed to be specific to Anthus's issue. Just a couple more thoughts on this: 1. It is the practice that started this thread. If I did not make myself clear before I do think that Anthus starting this thread was the right thing to do because there was a lack of communication and satisfaction. But I also think it is possible, that quick direct communication might have at least made the situation better. But I also agree that putting issues like this out in the forums makes life ultimately better for everyone. 2. I think it is unfair to suggest that geocoins and geocaching have become unlinked. The reality is that with more coins and more sellers, there are more coins in caches. I have found 5-7 over the past month. This is a good thing in my opinion. I know you and I see the state of geocoins very differently, but overall, the fact that people are still buying them, collecting them trading them and putting them out to travel suggests that it has changed from what it used to be. Change is not necessarily bad. 3. No doubt that getting samples is not a problem for anyone but I add that even with a couple, I would not feel right about selling or trading them without the owners approval. This is scary! Way too much agreement between you and me. Quote Link to comment
+footTRAX Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I don’t want to see this Forum turn into “Who’s Coin Vender has the best policy” when dealing with customers Geocoins. I think Geocoinstore did an excellent job with my coins and handled every question I had for them in a timely manner. I would recommend them! However, Anthus raised valid concerns about How and Why our Geocoin orders were exceeded past what we ordered? Why were they trading our coins that we didn’t know existed? I wanted my LE coins to be Limited! Not to exceed its limit! Quote Link to comment
+Anthus Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 If I did not make myself clear before I do think that Anthus starting this thread was the right thing to do because there was a lack of communication and satisfaction. Thanks for clarifying this. Quote Link to comment
+Kealia Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Below is the response I just received from the Geocoinstore. I'm posting this in case any of the other coin owners involved in this incident want to contact the mint for their dies. There was no mention of what is happening to the blank samples. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Message From The Geocoin Store 1170181976 From: "Geocoin Support Team" <info@geocoinclub.com> Date: Thu, February 01, 2007 8:51 pm Hi Stacy, If you want the physical dies you are free to take it up with the factory that minted them, www.scorpion.com.hk the order number should be on your original artwork or someone can look it up for you. You might also try asking them what the order total was and I think you will find that 9 blanks were made not 15 but that is going on memory and you don't believe me anyways so I won't waste your time. (Added bold for emphasis) Why aren't they contacting the mint for you?? The whole reason to work with a broker is to make it so the customer (you) doesn't have to deal directly with the mint. In a normal situation this would be the expectation - in THIS case it's somewhat shocking that they aren't willing to even help out to try and make things right I'm not sure what will happen to your "9" blanks/floaters/whatever - but I hope you get some of them back and the others are never seen again. Off topic: I just noticed that one of your coins (owned by someone else) is in a cache near me. Maybe I'l lgo move it along this w/e just to feel like I helped you out. Quote Link to comment
+prntr1 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Below is the response I just received from the Geocoinstore. I'm posting this in case any of the other coin owners involved in this incident want to contact the mint for their dies. There was no mention of what is happening to the blank samples. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Message From The Geocoin Store 1170181976 From: "Geocoin Support Team" <info@geocoinclub.com> Date: Thu, February 01, 2007 8:51 pm Hi Stacy, If you want the physical dies you are free to take it up with the factory that minted them, www.scorpion.com.hk the order number should be on your original artwork or someone can look it up for you. You might also try asking them what the order total was and I think you will find that 9 blanks were made not 15 but that is going on memory and you don't believe me anyways so I won't waste your time. Ouch Quote Link to comment
+Cornerstone4 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Oh boy...two more weeks, and a lot of us are going to be in the same room together! Oh BOY! Quote Link to comment
+Anthus Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 Below is the response I just received from the Geocoinstore. I'm posting this in case any of the other coin owners involved in this incident want to contact the mint for their dies. There was no mention of what is happening to the blank samples. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Message From The Geocoin Store 1170181976 From: "Geocoin Support Team" <info@geocoinclub.com> Date: Thu, February 01, 2007 8:51 pm Hi Stacy, If you want the physical dies you are free to take it up with the factory that minted them, www.scorpion.com.hk the order number should be on your original artwork or someone can look it up for you. You might also try asking them what the order total was and I think you will find that 9 blanks were made not 15 but that is going on memory and you don't believe me anyways so I won't waste your time. (Added bold for emphasis) Why aren't they contacting the mint for you?? The whole reason to work with a broker is to make it so the customer (you) doesn't have to deal directly with the mint. In a normal situation this would be the expectation - in THIS case it's somewhat shocking that they aren't willing to even help out to try and make things right I'm not sure what will happen to your "9" blanks/floaters/whatever - but I hope you get some of them back and the others are never seen again. Off topic: I just noticed that one of your coins (owned by someone else) is in a cache near me. Maybe I'l lgo move it along this w/e just to feel like I helped you out. I asked them to send me the mint information so that I could contact them myself. I also asked them to send me the blanks. Thanks so much for moving one of my coins along! I love to see them travel. Quote Link to comment
+fox-and-the-hound Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 (Added bold for emphasis) Why aren't they contacting the mint for you?? The whole reason to work with a broker is to make it so the customer (you) doesn't have to deal directly with the mint. In a normal situation this would be the expectation - in THIS case it's somewhat shocking that they aren't willing to even help out to try and make things right I'm not sure what will happen to your "9" blanks/floaters/whatever - but I hope you get some of them back and the others are never seen again. Let me get this straight... one cacher exercised some questionable judgement (apparently as far back as spring of last year although it didn't seem to bother anyone until just now), was just now called on it and is attempting to retract their actions all within a day of being called on it. It seems readily apparent that other coin companies also keep extras on hand for various promotional uses, too. So at what point did we jump to blaming the entire company and wanting them to go track down the old mints (who they don't use anymore) to locate dies (that may not even exist anymore) because of one single person's actions? Seriously, do you think half as many coins as are out there would ever have been made if we never saw samples? Do you really not want any production samples to ever be seen again? Can you really keep a straight face and say you're not stirring the pot? I suppose next we should send someone over to shake-down the factory workers to make sure we've found all these dangerous rogue coins that are upsetting the balance of our delicate geocoin universe. I'm just curious at what would be quite enough to "make things right" for you? Quote Link to comment
+Kealia Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 (edited) Basic customer service. When a company does something wrong they are obligated to make it right. Not tell you to go and make it right yourself. If you go back and read my comments, I fully expect companies to keep a sample or two to show. This was never a sticky point. My comment was directed at the perceived lack of customer service by saying "go to the mint and find it yourself". Anthus has replied and stated that she (Stacy, right?) asked for the contact information herself so it's a moot point now. Stirring the pot? Nope. I wasn't even involved in this thread during the "good parts". Edit: Adding - sounds like it's been "resolved" to the best point it's going to be. Anything left to say on this one? Edited February 2, 2007 by kealia Quote Link to comment
+IC1 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I just contacted the original designer of a coin that I currently have that fits this thread ( I won't say which coin ). If it weren't for this thread I would have just kept thinking that it was a mistake coin. I am thankful for this coming up! Now I know to discuss this issue when my coins are minted. Thanks Anthus for putting this in the light of day. Quote Link to comment
Jake - Team A.I. Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Let me get this straight... one cacher exercised some questionable judgement (apparently as far back as spring of last year although it didn't seem to bother anyone until just now), was just now called on it and is attempting to retract their actions all within a day of being called on it. It seems readily apparent that other coin companies also keep extras on hand for various promotional uses, too. So at what point did we jump to blaming the entire company and wanting them to go track down the old mints (who they don't use anymore) to locate dies (that may not even exist anymore) because of one single person's actions? Seriously, do you think half as many coins as are out there would ever have been made if we never saw samples? Do you really not want any production samples to ever be seen again? Can you really keep a straight face and say you're not stirring the pot? I suppose next we should send someone over to shake-down the factory workers to make sure we've found all these dangerous rogue coins that are upsetting the balance of our delicate geocoin universe. I'm just curious at what would be quite enough to "make things right" for you? Actually, It was a broker who is also a cacher and a geocoin collector that was offering coins for trade that were outside the intended minting of the coin originator. What upset the originator of the coin was that the brokerage that he got his coins through ordered a number of coins that were not trackable. These coins were distributed among the principles of the brokerage, and one of them was using them as trade items for his personal collection. The coin originator found that there were coins of his design, but not following his intent of being trackable... and being released without his consent. They were also being "marketed" as rare due to the fact that they did not have tracking numbers inscribed. In this situation, the coin originator felt that this practice was "devalueing" his investment. The bottom line is not that the broker has un-scribed coins in their possession, it's that they then used said coins for their personal benefit. Quote Link to comment
+Anthus Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 For our part, this is what we hoped to accomplish from this thread. 1. We thought the community needed to know about the existence of these unauthorized coins, and that they were beginning to be circulated in trades. 2. We wanted our unauthorized coins to be removed from circulation. 3. We’d like some guarantee that our coins were indeed removed from circulation; this is why we asked they be returned to us, and why we wanted control of our dies. 4. Future customers of any broker know to ask about that broker’s policy as it relates to samples and the creation and distribution of them. There are a few things that we did NOT want. 1. We never intended to make this a witch hunt, nor did we want anyone’s reputation to be damaged. We only released names once we received confirmation from the broker that this was indeed the practice. We thought everyone else involved with them deserved the right to know about this. 2. We never intended to profit in any way from this. If these coins are indeed returned to us they will never be traded, sold, nor see the light of day. 3. We never intended to have anyone’s feelings hurt. It looks like this has happened, and it’s unfortunate. So far, of the 4 things that we were looking to accomplish, we have accomplished at least 2 of them. We still hold out hope that the rest can be achieved. Thanks Anthus for putting this in the light of day. You are quite welcome! [checks off one item from the list] Quote Link to comment
+Eartha Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Actually, It was a broker who is also a cacher and a geocoin collector that was offering coins for trade that were outside the intended minting of the coin originator. What upset the originator of the coin was that the brokerage that he got his coins through ordered a number of coins that were not trackable. These coins were distributed among the principles of the brokerage, and one of them was using them as trade items for his personal collection. The coin originator found that there were coins of his design, but not following his intent of being trackable... and being released without his consent. They were also being "marketed" as rare due to the fact that they did not have tracking numbers inscribed. In this situation, the coin originator felt that this practice was "devalueing" his investment. The bottom line is not that the broker has un-scribed coins in their possession, it's that they then used said coins for their personal benefit. He also showed that there are other coins out there in this same situation, including Groundspeak's Signal Coin. It wasn't just one coin on that list. The coins have since been removed from the trading list. That's been settled. Consumers need to communicate with the vendors, and READ THE FINE PRINT before signing on the dotted line. If you do not understand your contract with the company, do not sign it/accept it until it is clearly explained to you. Let someone you trust go over it with you. If you want control of your design, be on top of it, save your paperwork, or emails, into a file. Otherwise, you haven't a leg to stand on when the time comes that you need to file a complaint. Quote Link to comment
+Anthus Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 The bottom line is not that the broker has un-scribed coins in their possession, it's that they then used said coins for their personal benefit. You have summed it up quite nicely! Thank you! Quote Link to comment
+forthferalz Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I was just going to remain in shocked silence but here's my 2 cents: re: "One Final thing. It is not uncommon for the factory to keep some coins that they will then send to prospective customers. I have in my possession two un-umbered geocoins that were sent to me as samples by the factory." Learn something every day - I had just assumed that as with landsharkz and some of their coins the broker and the client would BOTH be contacted FIRST by a reputable mint for permission to use a coin in a portfolio other wise they would supply their OWN designs cheaply as samples - eg. coinsandpins.com to name but one brokerwho has these for sale at a dollar a piece. Otherwise a PHOTO of past work is supplied - that's all I have ever been aksed for or sent! Quote Link to comment
+kdgreene Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 ...just that this cool way of leaving your mark and sharing your story with others is becoming so much more complex with the collecting side of it. Well said, Chris. This reflects my own frustration with the way the "hobby" is going as well. I'd really encourage people to consider rethinking where (for some) the "enjoyment" of collecting geocoins has evolved into an overwhelming "obsession". There have been a few notable instances recently of alleged impropriety, indicating that individuals can take their obsession too far. There should be no question whatsoever in the minds of any customer what will become of their project once they entrust it to a coin broker. There should be no surprises, no extra coins minted for trade, no extra coins minted in unapproved colors or finishes...without the express consent of the originator of said project. Period. Being open and upfront with your practices is the key to maintaining trust and operating a successful business. The same can easily be said for individual traders and sellers. Hey, we're all in this together. I'm sure we've all learned some valuable lessons from these instances, and I hope it puts into perspective just how important it is for us all to uphold that innocent trust we welcomed way back when we started collecting these addictive little bits of shiny metal. These coins are meant to be FUN...so let's keep it that way? Yime I agree... this has become an obsession. Maybe, the stock market or a Roth IRA would be a better place to invest money! Buy a few coins, and put the rest in a better "investment" if you are worried about the future value of your money. Ever heard of Beanie Babies? Quote Link to comment
oakcoins Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Since we have been asked by a few people to post here, I would like to just highlight a few of our policies. We are working on the final wording which will be posted on our website. Oakcoins produces 2 samples of the product (coins/pins) in order to show potential clients the work we do. Oakcoins keeps all Samples coins at our location. Oakcoins does not send out Customer Coins/pins as samples to other potential clients. Oakcoins designs and produces its own Sample Coins which can be purchased anytime. Oakcoins will also send out sample coins/pins of its own designs to potential clients. If an employee of Oakcoins would like a coin/pin, they have to contact the person making the coin and purchase/trade for that coin. As an example, one employee bought a complete set of Decoder coins for person use. Oakcoins Employees have bought more than one coin and given those coins away or traded them. Examples to this would be the CA/KS Micro 10 packs. If there are any questions, please feel free to email us. Thanks! Quote Link to comment
+Anthus Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 If an employee of Oakcoins would like a coin/pin, they have to contact the person making the coin and purchase/trade for that coin. As an example, one employee bought a complete set of Decoder coins for person use. I can verify that an employee of Oakcoins has indeed purchased our coins. This is good business practice and I was quite pleased when I saw their order come through. I also want to clear this up --in case there is any confusion -- that the only coin of mine that has unauthorized blanks is the Firefighter (my personal coin) which was done by the GeocoinStore/PersonalGeocoins. Oakcoins brokered my Decoders and the geoAgents and I've never had a problem with Oakcoins. I made the decision to switch to Oakcoins last year due to price, option offerings, and email response times. I'm now everso glad that I made that switch. Thanks for posting your policy. ....Anthus Quote Link to comment
Parrolet Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 If an employee of Oakcoins would like a coin/pin, they have to contact the person making the coin and purchase/trade for that coin. As an example, one employee bought a complete set of Decoder coins for person use. I can verify that an employee of Oakcoins has indeed purchased our coins. This is good business practice and I was quite pleased when I saw their order come through. I also want to clear this up --in case there is any confusion -- that the only coin of mine that has unauthorized blanks is the Firefighter (my personal coin) which was done by the GeocoinStore/PersonalGeocoins. Oakcoins brokered my Decoders and the geoAgents and I've never had a problem with Oakcoins. I made the decision to switch to Oakcoins last year due to price, option offerings, and email response times. I'm now everso glad that I made that switch. Thanks for posting your policy. ....Anthus I also can say that Oakcoins and Hogwild Stuff both do purchase coins that they wish to use for personal use for trading, collecting and so on. I have brokered with both of these companies, have been very pleased with both companies, could not ask for better service, and highly recommend them both. Thank you both! Thank you Anthus for shedding light on this, I hope all of your issues, and everyone else that this involves gets resolved. Quote Link to comment
+The Blind Acorn Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Interesting thread you have here. I will say that I worked with Rusty on my Blind Acorn. I didn't have any problems with him. He told me he was going to have "one" acorn without a tracking number on it and that he did this with each coin he did. I found this out when I asked if I could send him a trackable coin. He also mentioned that he would send me his personal coin when they were made. I never got it, but I figure he had made this offer to many. In his defense here, I've never emailed and inquired about the trade. It doesn't really matter to me anymore. I've decided to end my collecting soon. I am thankful for all those people who traded with me and I have enjoyed communicating with everyone. On a side note, I've never had any troubles from any of the vendors out there. Many of who have posted notes in this forum. Good luck to all. I'm going caching.... even if I freeze. Quote Link to comment
+geoSquid Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 These are not VERY RARE coins as these collectors put it these are ILLEGAL coins. What law would it be that is broken? Quote Link to comment
+paulandstacey Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 What law would it be that is broken? I'm guessing copyright maybe? Quote Link to comment
+-Rusty- Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I have been asked to read and reply to this thread in my capacity as sole owner of Personal Geocoins Personal Geocoins produces 1 sample for each coin/plating minted and those are kept on hand as a physical reference. I pay for these samples myself and with margins that are already low I certainly don't order more than I need. This is still a fun and friendly endevour for me so if someone is having names engraved on coins like Pennypacker posted earlier I sometimes ask permission to to engrave my sample coin but it still stays in my personal collection. In exchange I offer one of my own personal geocoins. Quote Link to comment
+-Rusty- Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Interesting thread you have here. I will say that I worked with Rusty on my Blind Acorn. I didn't have any problems with him. He told me he was going to have "one" acorn without a tracking number on it and that he did this with each coin he did. I found this out when I asked if I could send him a trackable coin. He also mentioned that he would send me his personal coin when they were made. I never got it, but I figure he had made this offer to many. In his defense here, I've never emailed and inquired about the trade. It doesn't really matter to me anymore. I've decided to end my collecting soon. I am thankful for all those people who traded with me and I have enjoyed communicating with everyone. On a side note, I've never had any troubles from any of the vendors out there. Many of who have posted notes in this forum. Good luck to all. I'm going caching.... even if I freeze. Hey, you posted while I was typing. Send me an email I got my coins a few months ago and knew there were people I had promised them too but didn't keep a record. I'm not on any trading lists. Quote Link to comment
+pghlooking Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 So have we heard from the geocoin store here yet? Quote Link to comment
+Anthus Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 (edited) So have we heard from the geocoin store here yet? Unfortunately, I haven't received anything more than what was posted in this thread. None of the partners of the Geocoinstore has appologized for their actions. Not one of the partners has offered to send the blank coins to me to ensure they are out of circulation-- after all they just wanted to "thin their herd" so why not send them back to the coin owners. Not one of the partners has even offered to distory the unauthorized coins (although not the best solution to ensure they are out of circulation). Not one the partners has mentioned anything about changing their "practice" of ordering 15 extra blank samples. One or two samples would be all that would be needed to show potential customers and they should never be traded for other coins. I have not heard one word from Bjorn74 who is one of the partners of the Geocoinstore and who was actively trading these unauthorized coins. ....Anthus Edited to fix grammar. Edited February 3, 2007 by Anthus Quote Link to comment
+forthferalz Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 In exchange I offer one of my own personal geocoins. and a lovely personal coin it is too - a most worthy trade Quote Link to comment
+D24G0N Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 (edited) Just want to thank you Anthus for bringing this problem to light. As someone just breaking into the coin scene, I'm finding this very educational. Perhaps I missed a post, but have you managed to get your dies? (I know you said that you'd not heard from Geocoin store) Edited February 4, 2007 by DRAG0N Quote Link to comment
Son of Cyclops Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Unfortunately, I haven't received anything more than what was posted in this thread. None of the partners of the Geocoinstore has appologized for their actions. Not one of the partners has offered to send the blank coins to me to ensure they are out of circulation-- after all they just wanted to "thin their herd" so why not send them back to the coin owners. Not one of the partners has even offered to distory the unauthorized coins (although not the best solution to ensure they are out of circulation). Not one the partners has mentioned anything about changing their "practice" of ordering 15 extra blank samples. One or two samples would be all that would be needed to show potential customers and they should never be traded for other coins. I have not heard one word from Bjorn74 who is one of the partners of the Geocoinstore and who was actively trading these unauthorized coins. Anthus, I would like to make some corrections with the above. Each one of the members is not getting 15 coins they are only getting 2-4 coins each. And the reason Bjorn74 has not replied is because he has been busy with his job and his family and has not been able to answer his emails so that is why he has not answered his emails and not because he is not wanting to talk. Quote Link to comment
hirlas Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 *snip Second (and far more likley) it is our practice for each of the three partners of the Geocoin Club to receive 5 un-numbered coins of every coin we produce for their portfolio/use.. *snip It was already disclosed that they each got 5. (5 coins each X 3 is 15 coins) Anthus, I would like to make some corrections with the above. Each one of the members is not getting 15 coins they are only getting 2-4 coins each. And the reason Bjorn74 has not replied is because he has been busy with his job and his family and has not been able to answer his emails so that is why he has not answered his emails and not because he is not wanting to talk. Did Bjorn74 request you to pass this information on to us? Just curious... Quote Link to comment
+Anthus Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 Anthus, I would like to make some corrections with the above. Each one of the members is not getting 15 coins they are only getting 2-4 coins each. And the reason Bjorn74 has not replied is because he has been busy with his job and his family and has not been able to answer his emails so that is why he has not answered his emails and not because he is not wanting to talk. First off, I never said each partner got 15 coin each. Please make sure you read posts correctly before you misquote someone. Second (and far more likley) it is our practice for each of the three partners of the Geocoin Club to receive 5 un-numbered coins of every coin we produce for their portfolio/use. Secondly, I'd like to show you Mike's (partner of Geocoinstore) quote from this thread. He stated that 5 coins a piece as their practice. And the reason Bjorn74 has not replied is because he has been busy with his job and his family and has not been able to answer his emails so that is why he has not answered his emails and not because he is not wanting to talk. Thirdly, 5 days and still no response from the Geocoinstore partners on a means to ensure that these coins are no longer in circulation and not one word from Bjorn74. Finally, I find it interesting that the Geocoinstore partners haven't responded to resolve this issue but that you continue to speak for some of them. All I ever wanted was for the geocoin community to be aware of the trading of unauthorized "blank" coins and for assurance that the coins are taken out of circulation. ...Anthus Quote Link to comment
+Anthus Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 Just want to thank you Anthus for bringing this problem to light. As someone just breaking into the coin scene, I'm finding this very educational. Perhaps I missed a post, but have you managed to get your dies? (I know you said that you'd not heard from Geocoin store) You are welcome. I've been informed that once the dies leave the mint, the mint will not use them again for fear that they were damaged once they left the mint. I'm currently seeking out my options for having a coin broker other than the Geocoinstore maintain them while they are at the mint. That way they do not have to leave the mint. I don't plan on making any more of my personal coins with the front die, but I had planned on reusing the back die for any future versions of my personal coin. ....Anthus Quote Link to comment
+Lemon Fresh Dog Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 (edited) Oh my....what a thread! Here's my 2 cents: 1) I have no problem with a mint taking 1-3 copies for the following: archive copy, tradeshow copy - this seems a reasonable way to track work and show specifics of their production ability on a controlled basis 2) I DO have a problem with my design/coin being used as a mailout sample - mint or broker - once they leave these locations they cannot be controlled and become a rarity/unique item that may have value. This is an UNcontrolled use. - If there is a need to demonstrate production ability (mint or broker) then use their OWN design(s). In fact, this is a BETTER way of demonstrating their ability as they can show specific features in metal type, images, etc. Sorry. 5 copies to each of three "partners" to do what they see fit with (such as trading - which done for cash or coins is still done for the purpose of gain) is not a practice which I feel is ethical or defensible. Especially if not explicitely stated and arranged in advance. Compounded by the fact that the coins are in a different variety than the original is also a concern. While I try to understand both sides to everything - I cannot understand what thought process legitimizes the taking of someones design that they paid to produce and not executing their instructions to the letter (mint 500 of this design - not mint 500 of this design trackable and 15 of this design for limited distribution). In fact, telling the public that purchased the coin that they are buying a coin which is within a limited series of 500 trackable coins and then having it revealed that a rarer, non-trackable version exists is a little questionable. If a reserve is held for refunds, exchanges, etc - then this reserve must be destroyed following a reasonable time-frame. Edited February 4, 2007 by Lemon Fresh Dog Quote Link to comment
+pghlooking Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Anthus, I would like to make some corrections with the above. Each one of the members is not getting 15 coins they are only getting 2-4 coins each. And the reason Bjorn74 has not replied is because he has been busy with his job and his family and has not been able to answer his emails so that is why he has not answered his emails and not because he is not wanting to talk. You are wrong about the 15 coins. Anthus stated it correctly and said 15 were made, not 15 by each. This is what is believed to have been made and the amount admitted to. Who knows what the real amount is since they obviously they have the ability to mint any over run amount they so choose to. As for you speaking on Bjorn74's behalf. Did he tell you personally that he is not speaking in this thread for those reasons or have you taken it upon yourself to come here in his defense and make this statements based on nothing but pure speculation? If this is what you did then you have done no good to the thread but instead just are starting more issues that need not started. If in fact he did ask you to do this then that is just sad. Asking a high school student to come to the defense of an adult in a business transaction gone bad is poor business and manipulative. Either way this isn't the way to handle it and isn't offering anything positive to these three behind the deal. Quote Link to comment
+Prairiepartners Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 . Second (and far more likley) it is our practice for each of the three partners of the Geocoin Club to receive 5 un-numbered coins of every coin we produce for their portfolio/use. I don't think this is out of line. Especially on a project which we footed the bill for. We simply ask the factory for them not to engrave ours. I personally think this is totally wrong and immoral, especially since this isn't publicly known until now. I was going to have my new personal coin made by you all and a couple of other projects in the future. After this coming to light, there is no way that I will consider having them done by you guys. Keeping my other comments to myself. Quote Link to comment
+crake Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Beating a dying thread... but I promsied I would follow up if I had info from the factory. I confirmed with the factory that there is a "no-show" list of companies. The factory won't make samples from items produced for companies on that list. Needless to say, Crake is now on that list Quote Link to comment
+Nero Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 . Second (and far more likley) it is our practice for each of the three partners of the Geocoin Club to receive 5 un-numbered coins of every coin we produce for their portfolio/use. I don't think this is out of line. Especially on a project which we footed the bill for. We simply ask the factory for them not to engrave ours. I personally think this is totally wrong and immoral, especially since this isn't publicly known until now. I was going to have my new personal coin made by you all and a couple of other projects in the future. After this coming to light, there is no way that I will consider having them done by you guys. Keeping my other comments to myself. Keep in mind that the geocoin store and personalgeocoins are 2 different things, while rusty may be one of the partners, he is only 1/3 of the geocoinstore. and he responded to this thread.. I have been asked to read and reply to this thread in my capacity as sole owner of Personal Geocoins Personal Geocoins produces 1 sample for each coin/plating minted and those are kept on hand as a physical reference. I pay for these samples myself and with margins that are already low I certainly don't order more than I need. This is still a fun and friendly endevour for me so if someone is having names engraved on coins like Pennypacker posted earlier I sometimes ask permission to to engrave my sample coin but it still stays in my personal collection. In exchange I offer one of my own personal geocoins. I have used him twice and would use him again. Quote Link to comment
+pghlooking Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Keep in mind that the geocoin store and personalgeocoins are 2 different things, while rusty may be one of the partners, he is only 1/3 of the geocoinstore. and he responded to this thread.. I have been asked to read and reply to this thread in my capacity as sole owner of Personal Geocoins Personal Geocoins produces 1 sample for each coin/plating minted and those are kept on hand as a physical reference. I pay for these samples myself and with margins that are already low I certainly don't order more than I need. This is still a fun and friendly endevour for me so if someone is having names engraved on coins like Pennypacker posted earlier I sometimes ask permission to to engrave my sample coin but it still stays in my personal collection. In exchange I offer one of my own personal geocoins. I have used him twice and would use him again. And he chose to respond purely behind the name personalgeocoins and avoided saying a word about his relationship within the geocoin store and his actions of taking 5 coins from each minting for his own personal use which has already been stated by one of the other 3 partners. Of course there will be a bunch of people who will still use them. Heck there will even be people who don't think they did anything wrong, and some who will think this is nothing more than a big hoax because someone doesn't like them. People choose to see things different ways when they like the person involved. It also tends to skew the facts from being seen fully. Wouldn't have been much more clean and respectable to come in here and anoswer the questions from both sides of the buisnesses he is involved with? Instead we get half a story from a company that isn't even at the center of this controversy from a person who is one of three directly behind this controversy. Seems even more shady to me. Quote Link to comment
+Nero Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Keep in mind that the geocoin store and personalgeocoins are 2 different things, while rusty may be one of the partners, he is only 1/3 of the geocoinstore. and he responded to this thread.. I have been asked to read and reply to this thread in my capacity as sole owner of Personal Geocoins Personal Geocoins produces 1 sample for each coin/plating minted and those are kept on hand as a physical reference. I pay for these samples myself and with margins that are already low I certainly don't order more than I need. This is still a fun and friendly endevour for me so if someone is having names engraved on coins like Pennypacker posted earlier I sometimes ask permission to to engrave my sample coin but it still stays in my personal collection. In exchange I offer one of my own personal geocoins. I have used him twice and would use him again. And he chose to respond purely behind the name personalgeocoins and avoided saying a word about his relationship within the geocoin store and his actions of taking 5 coins from each minting for his own personal use which has already been stated by one of the other 3 partners. Of course there will be a bunch of people who will still use them. Heck there will even be people who don't think they did anything wrong, and some who will think this is nothing more than a big hoax because someone doesn't like them. People choose to see things different ways when they like the person involved. It also tends to skew the facts from being seen fully. Wouldn't have been much more clean and respectable to come in here and anoswer the questions from both sides of the buisnesses he is involved with? Instead we get half a story from a company that isn't even at the center of this controversy from a person who is one of three directly behind this controversy. Seems even more shady to me. Conspiracy Theorists will make what they want from anything, or nothing at all. I do think what was done is wrong, and the person who did it was Bjorn74, I think they are the one that needs to step up and answer. Quote Link to comment
+Eartha Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 The coins were removed from the trade list days ago. I think we have beaten this horse to a pulp. If you have any issues with the people who made your coin, take it up with them. Go back and read your contracts with them. Quote Link to comment
+pghlooking Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 The coins were removed from the trade list days ago. I think we have beaten this horse to a pulp. If you have any issues with the people who made your coin, take it up with them. Go back and read your contracts with them. There wouldn't be any beating of anything if the people resonsible would step forward and answer some questions that directly affect these coins as well as many others. The community has a right to know what is happening with this since we are the ones who are being deceived, whether it is from the actual coin being minted or being traded to us. People that have traded for this coin unknowingly have been deceived as well with an unauthorized coin. This forum, and further this thread, serves as a way to help protect the unknowing person who goes to find a company to mint a coin. Their reputation is all we have to go on. By saying that they have removed it from the trade list and to go back and read the contracts and take it up with them is nothing more than protecting them from any public backlash. Please don't do the disservice to the community by making the ones asking the questions to look like the bad guys. Lets focus together on where the real problem lies and that is with a group of three people who have been making money off of people without their knowledge or permission. They have some answers that are owed to an entire community, and we have the right to be asking them. Quote Link to comment
Parrolet Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 The coins were removed from the trade list days ago. I think we have beaten this horse to a pulp. If you have any issues with the people who made your coin, take it up with them. Go back and read your contracts with them. Just because they were removed from OUR sight on the trading list doesn't mean that it isn't still going on or won't continue. I agree with many others, these people need to address this issue. Quote Link to comment
+Haughton's Hunters Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 As one of their customers that had unauthorized coins made, I want to state that I have personally heard nothing from Mike, Bjorn74 or Rusty. Only what was posted here. Has anyone else involved heard from one of those three personally? As with others, I invite Mike, Bjorn74 and Rusty to speak their side on this. I would like to hear how they thought what they were doing was OK. And most importantly, I would like (as I'm sure every other affected customer would) 13 of the 15 "extra" coins made. Or at the least, 12 off them, that would give each of them one. 13 would be better, giving them one for the company portfolio and one for a traveling portfolio. But I would like to hear something. At the absolute least, an apology from each of them would be nice. Quote Link to comment
Aushiker Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 The coins were removed from the trade list days ago. So does that resolve things? Somehow I don't think so. There has been no evidence presented to indicate what is actually happening with all the coins. Do you have some insights that you can share? I think we have beaten this horse to a pulp. I am not sure that is a fair call at all. It is clear that the business concerned has not responsed and the members of this forum, who are geocachers, who are geocachers who actually support this forum and the sharing of geocoins, are still expressing their concerns. Surely that is appropriate? Are they voilating the TOS of forum? Maybe we should be listening to them and respecting their desire to express their concerns? If you have any issues with the people who made your coin, take it up with them. Go back and read your contracts with them. I am not sure what point you are trying to make here, but I think it has been made very clear in posts from at least some if not all of those effected and who have commented that they have as you put "read their contracts." Furthermore what about those of us who are just buyers or potential buyers? Are we not entitled to hear about what has happened? To hear the various businesses responses? The particular businesses response? It is important to us as well you know. With the greatest respect this is a serious matter for the geocaching community, the community being the people who keep these forums going and Groundspeak in business. I would hope that the moderation would be such as to ensure that the community can express its concerns or positives in an appropriate manner. Unless the TOS have been breached I would hope that the discussion is allowed to continue in an appropriate manner. Regards Andrew Quote Link to comment
+Landsharkz Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Beating a dying thread... but I promsied I would follow up if I had info from the factory. I confirmed with the factory that there is a "no-show" list of companies. The factory won't make samples from items produced for companies on that list. Needless to say, Crake is now on that list Last fall we received a very nice letter from our mint asking permission to use images of one of our clients' coins in their upcoming catalogue and also permission to send another clients' coin out to potential customers if sample coins were requested. We checked with both customers to request their permission. I really don't think our mint would be sending out samples of any coins we've produced without following this procedure as this is how they have operated in the past. If anyone receives one of our coins as a sample from a manufacturer, we'd sure like to hear about it! Quote Link to comment
+wavector Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 With the greatest respect this is a serious matter for the geocaching community, the community being the people who keep these forums going and Groundspeak in business. I would hope that the moderation would be such as to ensure that the community can express its concerns or positives in an appropriate manner. Unless the TOS have been breached I would hope that the discussion is allowed to continue in an appropriate manner. That bears repeating. I am surprised that there has not been an extensive response. Insofar as I am concerned I think they (the geocoin store) have made a mistake and not responding quickly is compounding the error. I think most geocoin collectors and enthusiasts have an interest here and many are actually involved. The Signal and CITO geocoins did appear on the trading lists as blank geocoins, both of these are Groundspeak sponsored geocoins and are of special interest to geocachers throughout the world. Many geocoin collectors have to be concerned about any market developing for blank geocoins. Those buying blank geocoins are essentially undermining the foundation of the collection they are making. I have made one geocoin with the store (GAS Geocoin) and acted as the point man on a group geocoin (Alberta Geocoin) and as far as I am aware neither appeared as blanks on the trading lists that were linked earlier on this thread. In neither case was there a request for permission to make extra coins. In the case of the GAS geocoin I would like to know if there were 15 additional blanks made but in the case of the Alberta geocoin I need to know. If there were 2006 Alberta blanks made they need to be destroyed. I was acting as an agent for a working group and no permission was ever given for any extra coins, there were only 1000 of these coins made. Mike, you never clarified if the extra coins you each made were numbered with tracking codes but I am assuming there were not? I would also really like assurances that future geocoins I might make are not made in a number greater than authorized. Quote Link to comment
+Anthus Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 In the case of the GAS geocoin I would like to know if there were 15 additional blanks made but in the case of the Alberta geocoin I need to know. If there were 2006 Alberta blanks made they need to be destroyed. I was acting as an agent for a working group and no permission was ever given for any extra coins, there were only 1000 of these coins made. Mike, you never clarified if the extra coins you each made were numbered with tracking codes but I am assuming there were not? I would also really like assurances that future geocoins I might make are not made in a number greater than authorized. Is this the Alberta Wild Rose? If so there were blanks made. The Moop Along posted a thread in the trading portion of of these forums looking for some state coins. I emailed him since I had a PA state coin he was looking for. He emailed me a list of available coins for trade. Turns out this list contained a lot of untracable "blank" coins from the Geocoinstore. The Moop Along said he was trading them for Bjorn74. I still have that spreadsheet of tradable coins that The Moop Along sent me. On the list is 3 black nickle Alberta Wild Rose coins marked as untrackable. ....Anthus Quote Link to comment
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