Non Authorized Anthus Firefighter Coins

[+CoinsAndPins]

...Southbayday is correct. The "poorman's copyright" system is still legal in court; although it may take some exta lawyer power to back it up.

 

I may own the design but isn't the copyright for the dies (since they too are art) automatically vested with the coin maker? Plus when I provide a sketch, which the middleman uses to create a derivative work of art to better capture my intent, also copyrighted, which of course ends up in a die which is yet another derivative work?

 

Back on topic. would Anthus need to specify no samples and request that the die be destroyed to protect his limited run?

 

Destroying the dies is no verification that the coins will not be re-manufactured and is useless to request. This is like the US Treasury destroying their dies so that no more bills are made, but there are still plenty of counterfeits made. The coin dies are easy to duplicate from a coin copy by most tool and die makers. About 98% of coin brokers and about 80% of factories will not make more coins without permission regardless if the dies are shelved on location. It is good to keep the dies at the factory for the predetermined amount of time incase re-orders are to be done. We have had several instances of people who thought they would never make more of the same coin, but 1, 2, or 3 years later have changed their mind.

 

Most of the time coins are not counterfeited or made with a second illegal run. However, destroying dies is no guarantee the coins will not be duplicated. If you note the warning I have had on my website for years, there are some people who have counterfeited coins by taking a physical copy of a coin and having new dies made at a different factory. This has occurred several times with commemorative and military coins so the counterfeiter is able to sell the coins on Ebay. The good part about trackable geocoins is this makes it much harder to counterfeit without repercussions from the buyer and geo-community since any trackable counterfeits are too easily and quickly identified. It is basically a serial number for that particular coin.

 

Don't let the 80% factory figure I stated above scare you. Most long term experienced coin brokers know which factories to deal with and the factories that have some form of integrity.

 

Edit to clarify last line.

Edited February 9, 2007 by CoinsAndPins

[+tokencollector]

 

Funny thing. I don't allow photographers to copyright the pictures I commision them to take. They just assume that I'm paying them to copyright the photo and "just do it". All I wanted was their skill in staging a photo and most importantly the use of their better equipment.

 

 

At the risk of getting OT, if you commission a work with a "for-hire" contract, then you do own the rights to the work. If you go to Olan Mills (or JC Penny's studios, or the guy that comes and photographs your kid's soccer team) and "commission" the photo - they still own the copywrite unless a contract states otherwise. Of course, the photographer may sell you an exclusive unrestricted license to use the photo.

 

To come back on topic, in photo fourms some professional photogs don't care if their clients copy the pictures that they take. Others vigerously defend their copywrite rights. The friction between the two groups can be interesting to watch. Likewise, many coin designers aren't worried about a few sample coins being made (or even traded). Others are justifyably upset by the unauthorized trade of their designs.

 

The bottom lines, which have been expressed several times are: Buyers should understand their contract to have a coin produced and sellers should be up front with with their policies wrt to samples (As many have done).

[+pghlooking]

It seems this is just headed in so many direction, intentional or not. We are taking coins, not pictures. The differences are too vast to compare, and there really isn't a need. We also aren't dealing with replicas as I have heard. These are the real deal. They are the exact same coin physically minted by the same mint, and authorized by the coin broker. The only thing they, the coin broker did, was choose to not pay for the tracking code. Had they done this and would have placed these coins on their trader list, none of us would have ever known these coins existed. They could have made 100 extra. These coins are the real deal so comparing them or calling them anything else is not accurate. They are unauthorized of course since they did not have permission to do this.

 

One way to rotect yourself is in the numbering process. When we did the PA state coin, we settled for a number system that does as a result protect against this. We didn't do it for this reaason as we trusted our coin vendor very much and still do, but rather we did it out of uniqueness. After the tracking code we had additional letters and numbers. B for Bronze, G for gold, plus the coin number in the series. B001 was Bronze number 1, and so on. Maybe this is something simple people can do to protect themselves? Sadly it has come to this but it might be the most simple way to know a person isn't minting more coins than you allowed or agreed upon.

[+Anthus]

One way to rotect yourself is in the numbering process. When we did the PA state coin, we settled for a number system that does as a result protect against this. We didn't do it for this reaason as we trusted our coin vendor very much and still do, but rather we did it out of uniqueness. After the tracking code we had additional letters and numbers. B for Bronze, G for gold, plus the coin number in the series. B001 was Bronze number 1, and so on. Maybe this is something simple people can do to protect themselves? Sadly it has come to this but it might be the most simple way to know a person isn't minting more coins than you allowed or agreed upon.

 

Great point! My future coins will have tracking numbers on them to help prevent this (although this doesn't eliminate the problem altogether). It adds to the cost of producing a coin so in the past I didn't feel it was worth it. I now think it is worth it.

 

...Anthus

[+Haughton's Hunters]

One way to rotect yourself is in the numbering process. When we did the PA state coin, we settled for a number system that does as a result protect against this. We didn't do it for this reaason as we trusted our coin vendor very much and still do, but rather we did it out of uniqueness. After the tracking code we had additional letters and numbers. B for Bronze, G for gold, plus the coin number in the series. B001 was Bronze number 1, and so on. Maybe this is something simple people can do to protect themselves? Sadly it has come to this but it might be the most simple way to know a person isn't minting more coins than you allowed or agreed upon.

 

Great point! My future coins will have tracking numbers on them to help prevent this (although this doesn't eliminate the problem altogether). It adds to the cost of producing a coin so in the past I didn't feel it was worth it. I now think it is worth it.

 

...Anthus

I don't think it's worth the $1.50 per coin, but as far as sequentially numbering, that is a fine thing. Of course, my coins are numbered, and there were extras out there...they were trackable as well. But both areas (to the best of my knowledge) are blank on the additional coins. So, how did it protect me? It didn't. All it did do is make the person trading one state that it was un-numbered/non-trackable. Which SHOULD throw up a red flag to the person wanting to trade for it.

[+Anthus]

 

I don't think it's worth the $1.50 per coin, but as far as sequentially numbering, that is a fine thing. Of course, my coins are numbered, and there were extras out there...they were trackable as well. But both areas (to the best of my knowledge) are blank on the additional coins. So, how did it protect me? It didn't. All it did do is make the person trading one state that it was un-numbered/non-trackable. Which SHOULD throw up a red flag to the person wanting to trade for it.

 

You are right, tracking numbers and sequential numbering won't prevent but it helps altert traders of the bad ones. The unauthorized Firefighters would have gone unnoticed if they had tracking numbers on them. They too were marked as "un-numbered" and "untrackable".

 

On the bright side, 2HappyHikers has agreed to send back their blanks (which they obtained from a trade) in exchange for trackable ones.

Thank you 2HappyHikers

[+Woletrap]

well after all this, now i just GOTTA get my hands on a fully authorized Anthus Firefighter coin!!

 

 

Woletrap

[glennk721]

This thread was interesting reading. I have a take on this for future coin production runs that may be helpfull. If the coin house mint "sample" coins it should be known by all parties involved first off and formost , They should as well have tracking numbers just like any other coin, and activated in the company name/names account and named "XXX sample coin #1" and so on to have the ability to track these coins and have a firm knowlege of where they are and who has them. This is just food for thought for future minting of sample coins for portfolio use. Also think the terms of the contract when producing a coin need to be more clearly stated as to ownership of art, production rights and all related., This electronic age of ours leaves gaps, A hard copy contract (faxed) could also be signed, yes good old fashion pen and paper in place of a digital signature.

 

Glenn