Stakes In Trees

June 28, 2006

Recently, I found a very fine cache, well hidden in the lower branches of a ponderosa pine. However, the ammo box was hung on the end of a fresh ten inch metal tent stake that had been driven into the tree. My daughter was sad because of potential damage to the tree, which I know may or may not be an issue, but I'll bet it will be an issue to the logger that hits the stake with his chainsaw long after the cache has been forgotten. Not sure if I'm being AR about this, but I wonder if there are any guidelines other than common sense.

June 28, 2006

I've thought about drilling a small hole into a tree to hide a nano cache.. but I just can't bring myself to do it...I'm sure someone would complain if i did that... if you guys don't think it's a problem.. tell me..

June 28, 2006

In the real world I care for trees. The bark of a tree is like our skin, it keeps the good in and the bad out. When we break the bark by cutting or drilling we create an opening for problems. If we poked holes in you it wouldn't do you any good. Why would we harm our cache hiding spot?

Bluenose Climbers

2.8k · June 28, 2006

I would never do anything like that. Unfortunately, the guidelines really don't address it. The closest thing is:

Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

...

* Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method.

...

I think the guidelines need to plug the lopphole, and disallow any caches that purposely damage trees as you mention.

1.2k · June 28, 2006

I would never do anything like that. Unfortunately, the guidelines really don't address it. The closest thing is:

Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

...

* Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method.

...

I think the guidelines need to plug the lopphole, and disallow any caches that purposely damage trees as you mention.

HS5235

The NGS does it. Im not saying its right but adding another rule ?

At least it wasn't a copper nail.

June 28, 2006

I would not intentionally harm a good tree .... but all the trees I pounded nails into as a kid to build tree forts are still standing 40 + years later. A good bungee strap would have been a better alternative. ImpalaBob

38.2k · June 28, 2006

I think the guidelines need to plug the lopphole, and disallow any caches that purposely damage trees as you mention.

There is no loophole in the guidelines. They are quite specific about this.

Off Limits Caches

Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method.

These kinds of caches are not allowed. If the reviewer knew about the spike, the cache would not have been listed. Anyone who discovers a cache like this should report it immediately to his local reviewer.

Will it hurt the tree? Probably not. But it just doesn't look good for our sport. As we've already learned, it only takes one cache to give our sport a bad name.

Edited June 28, 2006 by briansnat

June 28, 2006

Hey, what about simply hanging something over a branch? Like attaching a small bottle (micro or nano) to fishing line and slinging it over a high branch and tying it off on a lower one? I'm wondering if the line (fishing line or any other kind) would eventually dig into the branch. Help me out on this one....

June 28, 2006

Hey, what about simply hanging something over a branch? Like attaching a small bottle (micro or nano) to fishing line and slinging it over a high branch and tying it off on a lower one? I'm wondering if the line (fishing line or any other kind) would eventually dig into the branch. Help me out on this one....

And what about all of the caches that are sitting directly ON THE GROUND? These caches are often senselessly killing grass. And hollow logs? That ammo can is cruelly and inhumanely suffocating all sorts of funguses, lichens and mushrooms. At least with a spike the tree doesn't DIE. I think we need to address this issue IMMEDIATELY!

38.2k · June 28, 2006

Hey, what about simply hanging something over a branch? Like attaching a small bottle (micro or nano) to fishing line and slinging it over a high branch and tying it off on a lower one? I'm wondering if the line (fishing line or any other kind) would eventually dig into the branch. Help me out on this one....

As long as you're not altering the tree you're fine. If you hang a carabiner from the tree and run the line through that you don't have to worry about digging into the branch.

3.9k · June 28, 2006

If trees could scream this wouldn't happen nearly as often.

38.2k · June 28, 2006

If trees could scream this wouldn't happen nearly as often.

Or a lot more often. There are a lot of sadistic people out there .

June 28, 2006

Thanks for the caribiner idea.

And what about all of the caches that are sitting directly ON THE GROUND? These caches are often senselessly killing grass. And hollow logs? That ammo can is cruelly and inhumanely suffocating all sorts of funguses, lichens and mushrooms. At least with a spike the tree doesn't DIE. I think we need to address this issue IMMEDIATELY!

lol! I agree, it can get ridiculous. My concern has more to do with longevity (ease of movement up and down over time), than with suffering trees.

3.9k · June 28, 2006

Recently, I found a very fine cache, well hidden in the lower branches of a ponderosa pine. However, the ammo box was hung on the end of a fresh ten inch metal tent stake that had been driven into the tree. My daughter was sad because of potential damage to the tree, which I know may or may not be an issue, but I'll bet it will be an issue to the logger that hits the stake with his chainsaw long after the cache has been forgotten. Not sure if I'm being AR about this, but I wonder if there are any guidelines other than common sense.

I strongly dislike this hide attachment method. Period.

5.9k · June 28, 2006

Recently, I found a very fine cache, well hidden in the lower branches of a ponderosa pine. However, the ammo box was hung on the end of a fresh ten inch metal tent stake that had been driven into the tree. My daughter was sad because of potential damage to the tree, which I know may or may not be an issue, but I'll bet it will be an issue to the logger that hits the stake with his chainsaw long after the cache has been forgotten. Not sure if I'm being AR about this, but I wonder if there are any guidelines other than common sense.

It'll serve the logger right for harming the tree. I'm going to go buy a bunch of those tent pegs.

Edited June 28, 2006 by Criminal

June 28, 2006

I always like the bumper sticker "If you don't like logging try wiping your A** with plastic ! "

38.2k · June 28, 2006

Hey, what about simply hanging something over a branch? Like attaching a small bottle (micro or nano) to fishing line and slinging it over a high branch and tying it off on a lower one? I'm wondering if the line (fishing line or any other kind) would eventually dig into the branch. Help me out on this one....

And what about all of the caches that are sitting directly ON THE GROUND? These caches are often senselessly killing grass. And hollow logs? That ammo can is cruelly and inhumanely suffocating all sorts of funguses, lichens and mushrooms. At least with a spike the tree doesn't DIE. I think we need to address this issue IMMEDIATELY!

Cute. Until some ranger comes by, sees the stake and it results in a park system wide ban on geocaching. Its not a matter of whether the stake does real harm (the jury is out on whether it does), but of perception.

Digging a hole to place a cache really doesn't really damage anything, but park managers don't want us digging holes in their parks. Nor do they want us driving stakes and nails or drilling into live trees.

June 28, 2006

Hey, what about simply hanging something over a branch? Like attaching a small bottle (micro or nano) to fishing line and slinging it over a high branch and tying it off on a lower one? I'm wondering if the line (fishing line or any other kind) would eventually dig into the branch. Help me out on this one....

And what about all of the caches that are sitting directly ON THE GROUND? These caches are often senselessly killing grass. And hollow logs? That ammo can is cruelly and inhumanely suffocating all sorts of funguses, lichens and mushrooms. At least with a spike the tree doesn't DIE. I think we need to address this issue IMMEDIATELY!

Cute. Until some ranger comes by, sees the stake and it results in a park system wide ban on geocaching. Its not a matter of whether the stake does real harm (the jury is out on whether it does), but of perception.

Digging a hole to place a cache really doesn't really damage anything, but park managers don't want us digging holes in their parks. Nor do they want us driving stakes and nails or drilling into live trees.

I'll bet they don't want us leaving crap on the ground or in hollow logs, either, but we still do it, don't we? We're just better at hiding THOSE from the ranger than we are spikes in trees.

June 28, 2006

If trees could scream this wouldn't happen nearly as often.
Or a lot more often. There are a lot of sadistic people out there.

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down?

We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.

- Jack Handy.

1.1k · June 28, 2006

Okay everyone that has EVER broken a branch of a tree raise there hand. Okay now get off it. When I worked surverying we would cut notches in trees or just cut a tree down for a line of sight. Your not causing deforestation.

cheers

June 28, 2006

Ok let's take all the PC arguments out of this issue and look at some facts. Trees can benifit from proper maintenance such as pruning. So cutting is not as detrimental as we once thought. Poking holes in trees? Well humans have been doing it for centuries once we discovered you could get maple syrup, gum, rubber and many other products.

So lets go to a more Public Relations standpoint. Poking big holes in trees in parks is probably not a good idea. Small hides are probably ok since they are not as intrusive, but a big ammo can hanging in a tree may make a bad impression. Hunters have been getting a bad rap for years because of the few jerks that break the rules and leave garbage in the woods and don't respect the sport. let's not head down that road

June 28, 2006

i think it is inappropriate to be driving stakes into trees to hide a cache. the guideline, provided by a couple posters already, seems pretty clear to me.

Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method.

i don't think it is unreasonable to expect that this guideline be followed.

parrotrob, it seems like you are just trying to be argumentative. and N2ZPY, logging really isn't at issue here.

briansnat makes some excellent points about why it is in the geocaching community's best interest to not deface trees. if you'd like to do that to a tree in your own front yard, knock yourself out though.

June 28, 2006

Tree damage aside for a moment, I see this as being akin to digging a hole to place a cache.

It's not so much the actual damage we may be causing that concerns me so much as the perception it generates in those not familiar with our hobby.

Edited June 28, 2006 by wandererrob

24.7k · June 28, 2006

The tree will be fine with the stake. The real issue is that the stake was placed to begin with. There are a lot of ways to place the cache in a tree without the stake. The reason the stake is an issue is that even though it won't do any real harm, is that perception is reality. As wandererrob said, it's about how others percieve geocaching. In the long run those perceptions will drive this activity. They will drive it as much if not more than our own evolution.

June 28, 2006

Being that we're an "outdoorsy" bunch, I'll bet there are some rock climbers here. The NPS has been agressively pursuing bans on pounding metal stakes into rocks (bolting) and climbers have had to move to "non-permenant" placements. This has lead to what is called "clean" climbing where no permenant fixtures are attached to the rock and everything is removed when you're done.

Sounds like the same thing could be done here.

You could absolutely wrap a piece of nylon webbing over a branch, loop it through itself and snap a 'biner on the end. Problem solved, no spike and the cache could be completely "erased" if ever necessary.

I'm not against cutting down a tree for the right purpose, but this spike just isn't needed to begin with.

Driver Carries Cache

(madmike)

June 28, 2006

Recently, I found a very fine cache, well hidden in the lower branches of a ponderosa pine. However, the ammo box was hung on the end of a fresh ten inch metal tent stake that had been driven into the tree. My daughter was sad because of potential damage to the tree, which I know may or may not be an issue, but I'll bet it will be an issue to the logger that hits the stake with his chainsaw long after the cache has been forgotten. Not sure if I'm being AR about this, but I wonder if there are any guidelines other than common sense.

It'll serve the logger right for harming the tree. I'm going to go buy a bunch of those tent pegs.

I really hope you are jokeing.

5.6k · June 28, 2006

I always like the bumper sticker "If you don't like logging try wiping your A** with plastic ! "

Or use that TP that's made of cotton...

2.3k · June 28, 2006

I see nothing wrong with it the tree will not die from it and who cares about the logger 20 years from now thats a risk they will just have to take when leveling a forest!

1.2k · June 28, 2006

I always like the bumper sticker "If you don't like logging try wiping your A** with plastic ! "

LOL

June 28, 2006

I use screw-in tree stand steps while deer hunting, call out the army and the navy. The trees I first used them on 2 years ago my drop dead from the wounds at any minute.

Mellow out people, in most areas this isn't going to have too much effect on the tree. One park where I've got a few caches has trees that have dates as far back as the 1940's carved into them. Guess what? The trees are just fine today.

While we are at it, we have to find a way to stop all lightning. dadgum that lightning, hitting thousands, perhaps millions of trees each year, how dare mother nature!

38.2k · June 28, 2006

I see nothing wrong with it the tree will not die from it and who cares about the logger 20 years from now thats a risk they will just have to take when leveling a forest!

Well if you copy the method for one of your hides, just make sure you mention the spike in your "note to reviewer".

June 28, 2006

I always like the bumper sticker "If you don't like logging try wiping your A** with plastic ! "

Or use that TP that's made of cotton...

Regardless, no one wants to go through high school -- much less college -- having to carry text books written on stone.

5.9k · June 28, 2006

Recently, I found a very fine cache, well hidden in the lower branches of a ponderosa pine. However, the ammo box was hung on the end of a fresh ten inch metal tent stake that had been driven into the tree. My daughter was sad because of potential damage to the tree, which I know may or may not be an issue, but I'll bet it will be an issue to the logger that hits the stake with his chainsaw long after the cache has been forgotten. Not sure if I'm being AR about this, but I wonder if there are any guidelines other than common sense.

It'll serve the logger right for harming the tree. I'm going to go buy a bunch of those tent pegs.

I really hope you are jokeing.

...sigh...

5.7k · June 28, 2006

"I'll bet they don't want us leaving crap on the ground or in hollow logs, either, but we still do it, don't we? We're just better at hiding THOSE from the ranger than we are spikes in trees." And of course this makes it a perfectly fine thing to do. Amazing.

June 28, 2006

For those of you who are concerned about the tree:

Don't be. The tree will be fine, or at least as fine as any other trees in the area. Granted, damage to the bark does increase the chance of disease getting into the tree, but that increase is minuscule. Trees put up with a lot more abuse than having a stake driven into them.

For those of you who are not concerned about a logger's safety:

Shame on you. Whether you agree with logging or not, you're talking about the life and health of a human being.

And how do you know that it would be a logger that is cutting the tree? It could be a park employee putting in a new trail, or clearing an existing trail if the tree falls across it.

As for Criminal's comment, which I believe was made in jest, there are eco-terrorists out there who do just that. They'll go into an area that's scheduled to be logged and drive spikes into the trees hoping that enough loggers get injured to keep the rest out.

Others have said it, but let me repeat:

It's not the actual damage to the tree, it's how the non-geocaching public views the sport that is the concern.

Just a few months ago I had a long discussion with a park volunteer about geocaching. Not knowing that I was a cacher, she started telling me about all of the damage that was being done to the park. The examples that she gave me were either there before the cache was placed, or in an area that had no caches. I was able to change her mind about caching, but I couldn't have done that if one of her examples had been a tent spike driven into a tree to hang the cache.

5.7k · June 28, 2006

My my my, the rationalizations that we can come up with to make excuses for bad behavior: "I use screw-in tree stand steps while deer hunting, call out the army and the navy. The trees I first used them on 2 years ago my drop dead from the wounds at any minute.

Mellow out people, in most areas this isn't going to have too much effect on the tree. One park where I've got a few caches has trees that have dates as far back as the 1940's carved into them. Guess what? The trees are just fine today.

While we are at it, we have to find a way to stop all lightning. dadgum that lightning, hitting thousands, perhaps millions of trees each year, how dare mother nature!" Just one poorly placed cache can refelect poorly on our activities, I suppose that one 'poorly' educated, self-gratifying cacher could possibly have the same effect. Just a wild eyed guess though. Driving stakes into trees which reside on property which you do not own is just wrong, get over it. Actually I personally believe that doing that for frivolous reasons such as geocaching is even wrong on your own property. The difference is that I don't really care much what someone does on their own property so long as it does not affect me, my wallet or my family.

Edited June 28, 2006 by Team Cotati

June 28, 2006

For those of you who believe that there might be a very good reason for driving a stake into a tree, check out this book.

I have a copy and it doesn't mention trees.

June 28, 2006

I see nothing wrong with it the tree will not die from it and who cares about the logger 20 years from now thats a risk they will just have to take when leveling a forest!

Ouch! That's a pretty tough one for loggers.

Do you not use / have wood products?

38.2k · June 28, 2006

For those of you who are concerned about the tree:

Don't be. The tree will be fine, or at least as fine as any other trees in the area. Granted, damage to the bark does increase the chance of disease getting into the tree, but that increase is minuscule. Trees put up with a lot more abuse than having a stake driven into them.

For those of you who are not concerned about a logger's safety:

Shame on you. Whether you agree with logging or not, you're talking about the life and health of a human being.

And how do you know that it would be a logger that is cutting the tree? It could be a park employee putting in a new trail, or clearing an existing trail if the tree falls across it.

As for Criminal's comment, which I believe was made in jest, there are eco-terrorists out there who do just that. They'll go into an area that's scheduled to be logged and drive spikes into the trees hoping that enough loggers get injured to keep the rest out.

Others have said it, but let me repeat:

It's not the actual damage to the tree, it's how the non-geocaching public views the sport that is the concern.

Just a few months ago I had a long discussion with a park volunteer about geocaching. Not knowing that I was a cacher, she started telling me about all of the damage that was being done to the park. The examples that she gave me were either there before the cache was placed, or in an area that had no caches. I was able to change her mind about caching, but I couldn't have done that if one of her examples had been a tent spike driven into a tree to hang the cache.

I think you said it very well.

June 28, 2006

This thread's going nowhere and really fast.

I personally don't use any wood, or stone, or plastic products. I only use space age aluminum--that actually came from outer space--even to wipe. That way I make sure not to use any of our natural resources for natural purposes.

June 28, 2006

"I'll bet they don't want us leaving crap on the ground or in hollow logs, either, but we still do it, don't we? We're just better at hiding THOSE from the ranger than we are spikes in trees." And of course this makes it a perfectly fine thing to do. Amazing.

Did I *say* it was a perfectly fine thing to do? That was YOUR little addition. You wouldn't be trying to, say, put words into my mouth, now would you?

June 28, 2006

Hey guys I can solve this right now. Certain hunting equipment companies make a non invasive climbing step. It uses a nylon strap and that wraps around the tree and is tightened. The step has a broad back to rest against the tree. It does no damage and can be moved or loosened as the tree grows. Just hang the cache from that. There ya go, Bob's yer uncle, problem solved.

On to next topic that will bring the caching world crashing down causing a worldwide panic and the end of the civilized world

2.3k · June 28, 2006

Well if you copy the method for one of your hides, just make sure you mention the spike in your "note to reviewer".

Of course!

3.3k · June 29, 2006

Nails in Trees? Not Allowed? Nov 18 2004

10.1k · June 29, 2006

Perhaps, if it were a Vampire Tree, a wooden stake would be permitted?

9.4k · June 29, 2006

Recently, I found a very fine cache, well hidden in the lower branches of a ponderosa pine. However, the ammo box was hung on the end of a fresh ten inch metal tent stake that had been driven into the tree. My daughter was sad because of potential damage to the tree, which I know may or may not be an issue, but I'll bet it will be an issue to the logger that hits the stake with his chainsaw long after the cache has been forgotten. Not sure if I'm being AR about this, but I wonder if there are any guidelines other than common sense.

It'll serve the logger right for harming the tree. I'm going to go buy a bunch of those tent pegs.

I really hope you are jokeing.

Criminal would never do that. I think he's joking though

3.9k · June 29, 2006

The stake won't harm the tree...but is a bad reflection on caching as a whole. We need to refrain from altering nature in anyway possible.

Criminal if you don't believe in loggers...move out of your house...it contains wood that came from guess where??

El Diablo

5.9k · June 29, 2006

Recently, I found a very fine cache, well hidden in the lower branches of a ponderosa pine. However, the ammo box was hung on the end of a fresh ten inch metal tent stake that had been driven into the tree. My daughter was sad because of potential damage to the tree, which I know may or may not be an issue, but I'll bet it will be an issue to the logger that hits the stake with his chainsaw long after the cache has been forgotten. Not sure if I'm being AR about this, but I wonder if there are any guidelines other than common sense.

It'll serve the logger right for harming the tree. I'm going to go buy a bunch of those tent pegs.

I really hope you are jokeing.

Criminal would never do that. I think he's joking though

Yes, it's irony, get it? To prevent the tree from being harmed we're going to harm the tree...eh, fugget it. :wub:

That does remind me though, I have some ironing to do.

June 30, 2006

NM.. thought it said "snakes in trees"

9.4k · June 30, 2006

Recently, I found a very fine cache, well hidden in the lower branches of a ponderosa pine. However, the ammo box was hung on the end of a fresh ten inch metal tent stake that had been driven into the tree. My daughter was sad because of potential damage to the tree, which I know may or may not be an issue, but I'll bet it will be an issue to the logger that hits the stake with his chainsaw long after the cache has been forgotten. Not sure if I'm being AR about this, but I wonder if there are any guidelines other than common sense.

It'll serve the logger right for harming the tree. I'm going to go buy a bunch of those tent pegs.

I really hope you are jokeing.

Criminal would never do that. I think he's joking though

Yes, it's irony, get it? To prevent the tree from being harmed we're going to harm the tree...eh, fugget it.

That does remind me though, I have some ironing to do.

jokeing/joking...ah, nevermind

Stakes In Trees

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