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Is it morally acceptable?


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Well

 

Too bad you're from MI because I was going to be a smart @$$ and say that it is ok but pretty soon gc.com will be banning them.

 

Anyway there are several cemetary caches and I really enjoy them because they are out of the ordinary.

 

Come on over to http://www.mi-geocaching.org and check out our local group who is losing popularity here. frog.gif frog for the point.

 

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So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

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NO

 

"Topic: Is it morally acceptable?

To place a cache in an old cemetary."

After reading the question again, I notice you say the cemetery is not fenced. But your question Reads "in an old cemetary".

I have visited many an old cemetery while working on my genealogy hobby and it is usally not difficult to tell where the pyshical boundry is. Just try to stay well outside the suspected boundry and I don't think most people would object. At least, I would not.

Old cemeteries are a wonderful place to visit, make it a night only cache for some real fun.

Is it against the rules here at GC.com to place a cache inside the boundry of a cemetery? I don't know, but maybe someone will tell us.

 

I have flouted the wild, I have followed its lure, fearless. familar, alone; yet the wild must win,

and a day will come when I shall be overthrown. By: Robert Servic

 

[This message was edited by Dersu on March 27, 2003 at 06:00 PM.]

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I've got one that's hidden in a wooded area just to the side of an old cemetery, another that's an offset where you have to find a certain stone first then walk to the cache, and another that's a micro hidden near a gravesite.

 

All three are very old cemeteries and very old graves, two of them are the stuff of local legends and have received a lot of positive comments.

 

I'd never do one in a new cemetery or anywhere near a new grave . . well . .except for my own . . . I'm still trying to find a tupperware container big enough.

 

Bret

 

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.

When a man found it, he hid it again." Mt. 13:44

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...only a couple that were physical.

 

The latest one I did was in a modern cemetary...the cache was in foliage along the cemetary border.

 

The other was in an old and forgotten cemetary. Again, this was towards the edges of the cemetary in an old brush pile.

 

I don't see any moral problem with caches in cemetaries, but I'd draw the line hiding physical caches in and around headstones and crypts.

 

I've seen some old broken up crypts that just beg for someone to hide something inside, but it just isn't something I feel comfortable doing.

 

George

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Just a question....but if you do.....why do you post a question here? If you have permission, state so on the cache page....that should be enough. If you and the caretaker don't have a problem with it.....then the individual cachers can either deciede for themselves to do it, or not to do it.

 

Earth First!!! We'll cache the other planets later!!

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In the interest of full disclosure I have a virtual in a cemetery. The person buried at the coordinates spent her life having people gawk at her so I figured it was OK.

 

That being said, personally, I place little sentimental, emotional or spiritual value on cemeteries. Others do, however. If the cemetery is one that people still visit for the purpose of mourning their dead I would think the chances of offending someone are pretty high.

 

If YOU thought a place was sacred would you want a bunch of young punks (or old farts) poking around with a GPS looking for used McDonalds toys?

 

On the other hand, virtuals seem OK -- assuming there is some reason to want to visit the cemetery. Also, if nobody still alive remembers anyone buried there and the place no longer has a hold on the grieving I don't really see much of a problem. But how would you know?

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quote:
That being said, personally, I place little sentimental, emotional or spiritual value on cemeteries. Others do, however. If the cemetery is one that people still visit for the purpose of mourning their dead I would think the chances of offending someone are pretty high.


 

I place a lot of sentimental, emotional, and spiritural value on cemeteries, that's their entire purpose!

 

That being said, I see nothing wrong with a respectfull cache being placed there as long as the goal of the cache is to get people more familiar with some one or some thing at the cemetery.

 

For example although I haven't yet done so, I would consider a cache at a cemetery that had Civil War soldiers buried there as a way to point them out to people and therefore not let them be forgotten.

 

"The hardest thing to find is something that's not there!"

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quote:
Originally posted by MuzzleBlast!:

I place a lot of sentimental, emotional, and spiritural value on cemeteries, that's their entire purpose!

 

That being said, I see nothing wrong with a respectfull cache being placed there as long as the goal of the cache is to get people more familiar with some one or some thing at the cemetery.


 

I agree with MuzzleBlast. As a genealogist and geocacher, there are benefits to getting people to visit a cemetery to consider the people buried there, what their life might have been like, etc. I'm considering a cache in a rural cemetery where my wife's grandparents are buried (who died long before we were married). Just outside the corner from where their graves are is the land where they lived, an area now totally overgrown. I think it would be interesting to show people how quickly land can be overtaken by vegatation, in addition to reading about the people that lived on it.

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Cemetaries are great places for caches. You end up walking past many names that are part of the history of an area.

 

There is a really large and ineresting in Sacrmento that has about 5 caches in it. It's always fun to go back. There are many places in this cemetary with historical markers detailing the history of the people burried there.

 

Some of the old gold mining towns in california have nothing much left but the cemetary.

 

george

 

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Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

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i figure it's really boring, laying there all the time. think of the dead when you go. don't interfere with mourners. you'll be fine.

 

sometimes you can get permission from superintendents.

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

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Why not?

 

This cache: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=23485

 

is in a graveyard, and its one of the best cache sites i ever went to. It was very quaint, and someone had planted daffodils everywhere around the tombstones, along with some kind of little purple flower that lined the trail that weaved though this area as well. It was very pretty, and the cache doesn't disrupt any of the stones or graves, (which dated back to 1802!). In fact many of the cornfields within 40 miles of this cache have tiny graveyards in them that have been fenced off, and you can see them from the roads.

 

True-North

 

"The more I study nature, the more I am amazed at the Creator."

- Louis Pasteur

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quote:
It's disrespectful to the dead and insulting to the people who have family buried there.

Alan


 

"The dead know not any thing" but you're right, the families may take offense. Assuming there are families. I believe the original question had to do with a very old, and I assume, more or less abandoned, cemetery.

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I found a cache on the edge of a VERY old cemetery the other day. Because of the way the cache was hidden, I didn't have to enter the cemetery but look in the woods around it. After finding the cache I headed back through it to see what I missed. There, under a pine tree on the top of a hill, I found a grave of a Revolutionary War soldier. This is the second one I've found while caching. So now I'm starting to get more and more interested in paying attention to these old graves . . . I sure hope this doesn't lead to a NEW obsession!

 

On another note, the cache I have hidden in our family cemetery has brought me a lot of joy. My whole family (sisters and others who don't cache) ask me to read the cache reports to them whenever we get together.

 

One of the most rewarding things that has happened was a log from a husband and wife team that mentioned my brother's stone and how beautiful it was. The husband had seen it, and when he told his wife about it she made him drive back and show it to her. My sister-in-law was in tears when she read their comments and even wrote them to thank them for what they had written.

 

I think my brother would think that's pretty cool. icon_smile.gif

 

Bret

 

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.

When a man found it, he hid it again." Mt. 13:44

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There's a multi-stage cache I've logged, which takes you through one of the oldest cemetaries in Phoenix. I probably spent more time walking through the cemetary admiring the intricate headstones from over 130 years ago. It was clear who was more prominent at the time, based on the size of the plot, iron gating surrounding it, as well as some of the obvious names I noted. Oddly enough, I've passed by this place at least twice daily for the last few years, but never really 'knew' what was there. This cache gave me the chance to peek in on a little bit of the history from the area I call home.

 

If the cache doesn't lead to anything grotesque or defiling of graves, so I don't see a problem with it. It's just like the rural caches I enjoy in a number of ways. If it wasn't for those caches, I probably never would have discovered some truly wonderful areas in this state.

 

Brian

Team A.I.

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icon_biggrin.gif I think this kind of cache must be handled on a cache by cache basis. There are many variables. Size, density of the plits, frequency of visitors, how notcable will a geocacher be, etc etc. I would say that generally speaking there should be a secluded area fsar enough away from any graves so as to not disturb them (remembering that many older graves are obscured by grass and bushes, we wouldnt want anyone walking on someones grave just for the hunt). But I also think there should a good reason to put it there. Perhaps an unusual grave, or the age or location of the graveyard would make in interesting. But to put one there just for the sake of putting one there? That'd be a negative if you ask me.

 

alt.gif

 

www.gpswnj.com

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I don't do "morals", as I prefer "ethics", but I see no problem with caching in places of the dead. I've done three or four caches that were in graveyards, and they were all handled very well. The problem I run into at these caches is that I never have enough room to carry away all of the trash (empty glass candle holders, torn up wreaths, etc.) from the woods nearby. That goes for caches behind churches as well.

 

I live fairly close to a large cemetary, and frequently take long walks through it, both for the exercise and to take in the beautiful scenery. It is much nicer than any of the parks in town, and something that could be shared with others by placing a cache, though I haven't done it yet.

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The dead know not any thing

 

Then why do we show respect and honor the dead in a military cemetary? Don't civlian dead deserve respect as well? All people want to show respect for their dead. One can think of the Indian burial grounds of the past or even more recently, the way the dead, many still buried as lost at the World Trade Center, are going to be honored and respected when they rebuild the WTC. That area will be preserved as a monument and all new buildings will be built beyond the area where they died. There was enormous discussion here in NYC about how that should be handled. Don't others dead people and their families elsewhere have the same right to expect respect?

 

I still stay it's tacky to cache where people are buried. I hunted one (a virtual) myself and just didn't feel good during and afterwards. And it was Babe Ruth's gravesite, something one could say had "historic" value. But a grave is a grave.

 

Alan

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i agree with those who feel this is tacky, to say the least. im not a religous person but i can see how some wouldnt want to desecrate the spirituality of the burial grounds of kin.

 

and on top of that admission to a burial ground may be restricted in such a way that persons entering for any reason other than to honor those interred there may be considered trespassing.

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there's a very much active cemetery near me where people picnic, play frisbee, walk dogs.. the cemetery is famous for it sculpture and the super encourages people to visit.

 

nobody conducts frivoulous activities near fresh graves, and people are respectful. every visitor i have ever seen takes time to visit with and remember the dead. nobody plays ON the graves.

 

the dead here include state governors, supreme court judges, and medal of honor recipients.

 

by golly, i hope i get to be buried somewhere VIBRANT!

 

and i hope somebody is playing poker on my grandmother's grave. she'd really enjoy that.

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

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I'm in Victoria BC. We actually have cemetary tours! We have a very old and historical cemetary here, in which there is a great deal of history. Think of why you would want to place a cache in a cemetary. If you think its simply a cool location, its probably in poor taste. However, a virtual or a multi cache in which there is a lesson learned, a bit of knowledge gleaned or an appreciation for local history, I don't see a problem with. Think of your reasons, and if in doubt, don't.

 

MMmmmmm pie!

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quote:
posted March 29, 2003 06:40 AM

The dead know not any thing

Then why do we show respect and honor the dead in a military cemetary? Don't civlian dead deserve respect as well? . . .


 

Although I wrote the earlier comment about the dead not knowing anything, I am not the originator of that comment. It comes from Solomon. You can find it in the Bible (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

 

Again, cemeteries don't hold much attraction for me. I consider them a waste of good real estate. But I understand that MOST people revere cemeteries and consider them sacred. I respect their feelings generally. Although I have located a virtual cache in an old country cemetery I would be reluctant to place a regular cache in an active cemetery because I wouldn't want an over-eager or insensative cacher to offend a mourner. Hopefully, most cachers would have the sense to wait until mourners left before whipping out their GPS.

 

On the other hand, old homeplace cemeteries that no one cares for and few if anyone visits seem OK, though. I found a cache recently that was hidden within the rock wall of an old cemetery (now part of state forest land) that I thought was pretty cool.

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This is yet another example of people trying to impose their moral values on others.

 

The solution is very simple:

 

1. If you have permission to place the cache, by all means place it wherever it is 'legal'. to do so.

 

and (most importantly)

 

2. If you don't like the description of the cache - DON'T LOOK FOR IT.

 

 

I would like to say I thought this was a rather strange comment:

quote:
I still stay it's tacky to cache where people are buried. I hunted one (a virtual) myself and just didn't feel good during and afterwards. And it was Babe Ruth's gravesite, something one could say had "historic" value. But a grave is a grave

If you'd visited Babe's Grave for the reason of visiting him only, would you have felt bad? I'm not sure how a virtual cache letting people know about the grave is any different than a city or state tourism guide.

 

SouthDeltan

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I didn't start this thread. My answer was in response to the question asked by the starter: "Is it morally responsible... any thoughts would be appreciated." Others including you gave their moral viewpoint; don't I have the right to give mine?

 

I'm not telling you not to go to these caches. That's your choice. On the other hand it would be improper to place a conventional cache without permission. Your item no 1.

 

Going to a gravesite like Babe Ruth's is fine - if it's done with respect. But I don't think what I did had anything to do with paying homage to Babe. I was playing a game -the caching game. I tromped around in the snow stepping all over ground where other graves probably were located looking for the coordinates. (What would the relatives of those people think if they saw what I was doing and for the reason I was doing it? So that I could add a point to my geocaching score!). On top of that there had been a Travel Bug placed against Babe's head stone. Yeeks! And I went back to recover it after I relized it was there. There was all sort of stuff leaning against the stone left by other non-geocachers. Little flags, baseball cards, geegaws, trinkets, a bat, gee wiz! It was like a carnival and I was part of it. Why don't we let the poor guy rest in peace? Also his wife, she was buried there too.

 

Would you want caching going on where your family is buried?

 

Alan

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quote:
There was all sort of stuff leaning against the stone left by other non-geocachers. Little flags, baseball cards, geegaws, trinkets, a bat, gee wiz! It was like a carnival and I was part of it. Why don't we let the poor guy rest in peace?

 

Call me crazy but I don't imagine that any amount of tromping around is going to wake him up . . .

 

But seriously, I see your point. Can you imagine how the family of the poor guy buried next to The Babe feels?

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

Would you want caching going on where your family is buried?


 

I am being 100% serious when I say this.

 

When i kick the bucket I want a headstone shaped like a gps and the instripction simply reads my name and the inscription: born: 40 37.128 died 42 52.878 (or whatever the coordinates are for the hospital where I was born, and for wherever I died.)

 

either that or else it'll be shaped like the state of NJ.

 

william

 

alt.gif

 

www.gpswnj.com

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

 

I tromped around in the snow stepping all over ground where other graves probably were located looking for the coordinates. (What would the relatives of those people think if they saw what I was doing and for the reason I was doing it? So that I could add a point to my geocaching score!).


 

If you are so concerned about what survivors of those buried think/feel, why did you do the cache? Clearly, the find was more important to you. Egads.

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

 

If you are so concerned about what survivors of those buried think/feel, why did you do the cache? Clearly, the find was more important to you. Egads.


 

good point. well played, that.

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

[...

If you are so concerned about what survivors of those buried think/feel, why did you do the cache? Clearly, the find was more important to you. Egads.


 

I thought my post here was obvious that I was just as disgusted with myself for doing it. The whole thing was tawdry. Didn't you ever do something that afterward you wished you hadn't done?

 

Alan

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It is apparently illegal to geocache in certain cemetaries in KY.

 

quote:
KRS 381.690 Protection of burial grounds by cities

 

Whenever any burial grounds lie within the corporate limits of a city the governing authorities of the city shall protect the burial grounds from being used for dumping grounds, building sites, playgrounds, places of entertainment and amusement, public parks, athletic fields or parking grounds.

 

HISTORY: KS 2741p-1

Penalty, 381.8990(2)


 

That said...if there is a cemetery that you think others would find interesting, why not make it a virtual and ask that they leave a flower on a grave that doesn't have one?

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

 

I thought my post here was obvious that I was just as disgusted with myself for doing it. The whole thing was tawdry. Didn't you ever do something that afterward you wished you hadn't done?


 

And my point was that hindsight is usually 20/20, and people should think things through before acting.

 

I suggest you stop and read a few headstones along the way; odds are that except for the landscapers, you would be the first visitor most of those folk had in a long time.

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If placing the cache does not violate any laws or other restrictions, I don't think there is much of an issue, especially if placing the cache is fine with the cemetary owners or caretakers (if any). Just be respectful in the treatment of locating the cache.

 

Comic relief - Know why they put fences around a cemetary? Because people are dying to get in. Ugh.

 

Veni, Vidi, Cachi ...

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quote:
originally posted by GroundClutter

 

... Think of why you would want to place a cache in a cemetary. If you think its simply a cool location, its probably in poor taste. However, a virtual or a multi cache in which there is a lesson learned, a bit of knowledge gleaned or an appreciation for local history, I don't see a problem with. Think of your reasons, and if in doubt, don't.


 

I would agree with GroundClutter, unless the cemetary is designated off-limits to visitors, a virtual/multi that highlights some local history or offers some knowledge to be gained is OK. I know in my town, that there are several monuments in our various cemetaries that are actually listed as points of interest on the local chamber of commerce website.

 

However, I would NOT, under ANY circumstances, place a traditional cache in a cemetary. Cemetaries are not meant as places of entertainment, and the deceased should be shown proper respect, and even in virtuals, people should pay their respect to those buried there. Even though there are lots of potential hiding spots (and they've been put to good use by spies, for instance, in the past), I just feel that leaving something permanent in a cemetary (other than the marker to show the grave) desecrates the ground they are buried in.

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