What would you do

February 25, 2016

How would you handle this

I have a cache that I placed to replace another cache of mine that had gone missing a couple of times so I moved it to a new location close by. After 10 finds I received the following two messages from two different cache names

"Regarding (cache# and cache name removed)

Bye bye cache"

And

"Regarding (cache# and cache name removed)”

and a photo of the log sheet with the written message "Muggled in the name of Gerald Roman [blue Hood]"

After 2 DNF’s I checked on the cache and the cache was indeed missing and I replaced it logging the following note on the cache page.

“When by to check on this cache early this morning and it was indeed missing.

Replaced with a new container so it's ready to go again.

Hopefully the jerks who took the last one will leave this one alone.”

Last night I received the following message

"You called me a jerk, yeah eh? Gl finding the next one"

One of the senders has logged 2 finds including mine and the other has no finds logged.

So I suspect that the cache is missing again and it gives them some kind of perverse pleasure in ruining the game for others.

I will check on the cache within a few days when I am in the area again.

If it is missing again, I will archive the cache and forget about replacing it and not place any new caches in the area.

My question is

Should I report this to the powers that be or just forget about it and move on?

February 25, 2016

How would you handle this

I have a cache that I placed to replace another cache of mine that had gone missing a couple of times so I moved it to a new location close by. After 10 finds I received the following two messages from two different cache names

"Regarding (cache# and cache name removed)

Bye bye cache"

And

"Regarding (cache# and cache name removed)”

and a photo of the log sheet with the written message "Muggled in the name of Gerald Roman [blue Hood]"

After 2 DNF’s I checked on the cache and the cache was indeed missing and I replaced it logging the following note on the cache page.

“When by to check on this cache early this morning and it was indeed missing.

Replaced with a new container so it's ready to go again.

Hopefully the jerks who took the last one will leave this one alone.”

Last night I received the following message

"You called me a jerk, yeah eh? Gl finding the next one"

One of the senders has logged 2 finds including mine and the other has no finds logged.

So I suspect that the cache is missing again and it gives them some kind of perverse pleasure in ruining the game for others.

I will check on the cache within a few days when I am in the area again.

If it is missing again, I will archive the cache and forget about replacing it and not place any new caches in the area.

My question is

Should I report this to the powers that be or just forget about it and move on?

You can report it. However, that wont stop them. I would either give up that general area or try premium only

Edited February 25, 2016 by ottieolsen

4.8k · February 25, 2016

You could conceivably report the user to Groundspeak as being in violation of the Terms Of Use on the website (I.e.harassment), but most of the time, ignoring them is just as effective. Most bullies don't have the stamina to continue that sort of behavior over the long term.

4.5k · February 25, 2016

No doubt the person who logged, "found It forever", is one of the culprits. Moving the cache a bit and making it premium may help. Whether you do this or archive, i'd still report it, with a copy of the email, to GS. As mentioned, the jerks may eventually move along if you ignore them.

1.5k · February 25, 2016

Make your caches PMO for a time. Cache maggots won't pay to play. Your maggot is a Basic Member. I'd leave them disabled for a couple of weeks, before replacing and enabling again.

You change the status of the cache to PMO from the edit form, it's a check box under the cache owner name field. You can go UNCHECK this in a couple of weeks or months, your local maggot will have moved on to some other form of delinquency.

I'd report these users to staff (not a reviewer).

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=request

Use the Help Center contact form, and call this 16. Geocacher Disagreement.

3.7k · February 25, 2016

Personally, I'd call them out on the cache page by geo-name. I'd report their message to Groundspeak...and then I'd probably just archive the cache since it's obviously now a target. Perhaps you could bring it back at a later date...but people like that enjoy making trouble.

But that's just what I would do. You do what you feel is best.

February 25, 2016

I agree with temporarily switching to PMO and then (when already in PMO) change the cache location so that they don't know it. I suppose those nicks are basic members.

And completely ignore them as angry reactions are what they're after. No reactions = no fun for them. It won't last more that a few months.

13.8k · February 25, 2016

I'd definately report to Groundspeak, maybe they'll lock those accounts.

Realize the jerks can simply create another.

If you're not gonna move the cache outta the way quite a bit, I wouldn't bother making it pmo.

- The location is well-known now to these cache maggots, and compromised.

1.5k · February 25, 2016

I'd report them to Groundspeak... Can't hurt. Although with Groundspeak's not even requiring a validated email, all they'll do it lock the account, and the slugs will register,(and I use the word loosely), a new account and carry on. Make the cache PM, and then move it while it is PM. Probably change all your caches to PM, at least for a while.

Sad little slugs. They need to go back to whatever cess pool they crawled out of.

February 25, 2016

Is it possible that this person could be an established cacher in the area who you have fallen out with? This could be a sock puppet account that they use to steal other people's caches. I noticed that on the other cache that they found they also wrote "found it forever" and that hasn't been found since. (It also hasn't been DNF'd either.)

22k · February 25, 2016

If you change a cache to Premium Members Only:

(1) I recommend moving the cache to a new location at least 50 feet away so the maggot can't just keep looking in the same spot.

(2) Note that a basic member maggot could have your cache on their watchlist, or if that maggot account is a sock for a premium account, the premium member could have your cache bookmarked or included in a pocket query. So, the notification log for a coordinate update would spill the beans.

(3) Generally, changing to PMO is ineffective against a determined Premium Member maggot. They can monitor your cache via pocket queries and their name will never show up in the Audit Log, so resist the urge to point fingers at any names appearing on the Audit Log.

I also advise against posting logs to the cache page that confront the maggot. Their psychological profile is to seek attention and get a rise out of the cache owner and the local community. If you quietly go on with the business of hiding and maintaining quality caches with no attention being paid to the maggot, they eventually get bored and go away.

February 25, 2016

Personally, I'd call them out on the cache page by geo-name.

Are we actually allowed to do that?

I've been tempted to do something similar with a missing trackable which has been held by a now-inactive cacher for several years, when I re-release it.

7.4k · February 25, 2016

From what I've seen, the only thing that really works in the long run is to keep replacing the cache, but don't acknowledge or confront the person doing it. It's just a bad person who wants to cause drama and get attention. As soon as you acknowledge them in any way, you're giving them exactly what they want and it motivates them to keep it up. If you ignore them, they get bored and go away eventually.

11.7k · February 25, 2016

I also advise against posting logs to the cache page that confront the maggot. Their psychological profile is to seek attention and get a rise out of the cache owner and the local community.

+1. And such person's behavior certainly is not limited to Gecaching.

One of my caches was especially well-muggled by the 2nd person to find it. A poop in the ammo box. Yep. Not only did they not log the muggling, they set it all back up for the next cacher, who understandably wrote a horrified log. I wrote to the cacher, who changed the Find Log to something benign, and I archived it with no fanfare. Then I spent about an hour at a car wash with the power nozzle.

5.7k · February 25, 2016

My question is

Should I report this to the powers that be or just forget about it and move on?

I would report it and temp disable the cache until I could check on it. Make it PMO before you enable it.

7.5k · February 25, 2016

My question is

Should I report this to the powers that be or just forget about it and move on?

I would report it and temp disable the cache until I could check on it. Make it PMO before you enable it.

This is good. Perhaps wait about a month after you temporary disable it before you enable it as PMO. The cache thief will likely get bored waiting.

2k · February 25, 2016

.... local maggot will have moved on to some other form of delinquency.

No doubt abusing caches won't satisfy him long, he'll be torturing small animals and lighting fires soon enough, all the while his mummy changing his wet bed sheets every morning.....

2.7k · February 26, 2016

Perhaps you could post an owner maintenance log that the cache has been replaced with extra camo but don't put anything out.

That could frustrate the heck out of them. Only drawback would be for the genuine seekers.

3.5k · February 26, 2016

Along the lines of what others have said:

-- Change the cache to Premium Member Only (PMO) status.

-- Update the coords, after changing the status, to a bit away from the prior location.

-- Report the cacher to Groundspeak, and mention the messages you received beyond what's visible on the cache page.

A couple other thoughts:

-- It might be worth contacting the CO of the cacher's other 'find' to let them know that you think their cache might've been abused.

-- If the other cache that this person 'found' is nearby, then you may want to search for it yourself to see if the 'found it forever' really means that the cache has been taken.

-- After your own cache is moved and made PMO, then maybe put something messy in the place where the cache used to be. Something like a sap-covered pinecone or ink-covered rock, or whatever matches the hiding spot. Gives the muggle a little surprise the next time they go looking to mess with your cache. Be sure to retrieve the decoy after a month or so though, to avoid littering the area. Reminds me of bait packages, filled with used cat litter, that have been used recently against the many package thieves in our area. I haven't needed to do this myself, but have seen news stories about it.

2.4k · February 26, 2016

Along the lines of what others have said:

-- Change the cache to Premium Member Only (PMO) status.

-- Update the coords, after changing the status, to a bit away from the prior location.

-- Report the cacher to Groundspeak, and mention the messages you received beyond what's visible on the cache page.

A couple other thoughts:

-- It might be worth contacting the CO of the cacher's other 'find' to let them know that you think their cache might've been abused.

-- If the other cache that this person 'found' is nearby, then you may want to search for it yourself to see if the 'found it forever' really means that the cache has been taken.

-- After your own cache is moved and made PMO, then maybe put something messy in the place where the cache used to be. Something like a sap-covered pinecone or ink-covered rock, or whatever matches the hiding spot. Gives the muggle a little surprise the next time they go looking to mess with your cache. Be sure to retrieve the decoy after a month or so though, to avoid littering the area. Reminds me of bait packages, filled with used cat litter, that have been used recently against the many package thieves in our area. I haven't needed to do this myself, but have seen news stories about it.

Sap-covered pinecone or ink-covered rock. I like it!

4.6k · February 26, 2016

A wildlife camera "guarding" the cache may provide images of the culprit. A story about a (Swiss?) cachethief was once published that ended with the police talking to the guy, solving the problem.

February 26, 2016

Thanks for all the replies and an update.

I have reported the accounts to headquarters and they have replied that they will take action accordingly.

I have also changed the cache to PMO. Had not thought of doing that so thanks.

I will check on the cache this weekend and disable it for a period of time if it is missing, before moving and enabling it again.

It's just a very annoying situation.

February 26, 2016

Thanks for all the replies and an update.

I have reported the accounts to headquarters and they have replied that they will take action accordingly.

I have also changed the cache to PMO. Had not thought of doing that so thanks.

I will check on the cache this weekend and disable it for a period of time if it is missing, before moving and enabling it again.

It's just a very annoying situation.

Looks like this individual has done this to another cache in your neck of the woods, GC2XW02. Not sure if your familiar with the CO of 'Sandbagged', but looks like his is gone also, same calling card message.

7.8k · February 26, 2016

Thanks for all the replies and an update.

I have reported the accounts to headquarters and they have replied that they will take action accordingly.

I have also changed the cache to PMO. Had not thought of doing that so thanks.

I will check on the cache this weekend and disable it for a period of time if it is missing, before moving and enabling it again.

It's just a very annoying situation.

Looks like this individual has done this to another cache in your neck of the woods, GC2XW02. Not sure if your familiar with the CO of 'Sandbagged', but looks like his is gone also, same calling card message.

I think you meant GC2XW0T. GC2XW02 is a few provinces over. :laughing:

February 29, 2016

Thanks for all the replies and an update.

I have reported the accounts to headquarters and they have replied that they will take action accordingly.

I have also changed the cache to PMO. Had not thought of doing that so thanks.

I will check on the cache this weekend and disable it for a period of time if it is missing, before moving and enabling it again.

It's just a very annoying situation.

Looks like this individual has done this to another cache in your neck of the woods, GC2XW02. Not sure if your familiar with the CO of 'Sandbagged', but looks like his is gone also, same calling card message.

I think you meant GC2XW0T. GC2XW02 is a few provinces over.

Yes, thank you, my fault. I messaged the CO that he may want to check on it to see if its still there.

7.4k · March 1, 2016

A wildlife camera "guarding" the cache may provide images of the culprit. A story about a (Swiss?) cachethief was once published that ended with the police talking to the guy, solving the problem.

If the cache is on your own property, that's a great solution. I don't think many land owners would consent to these cameras being used to monitor geocaches.

4.6k · March 1, 2016

A wildlife camera "guarding" the cache may provide images of the culprit. A story about a (Swiss?) cachethief was once published that ended with the police talking to the guy, solving the problem.

If the cache is on your own property, that's a great solution. I don't think many land owners would consent to these cameras being used to monitor geocaches.

The trick is to put such a camera where it wouldn't get noticed.

August 25, 2016

This thread has not had a post in quite some time, but I'd like to encourage rovers3 to contact Groundspeak again. I found these forum topics while googling "Gerald Roman" the owner of the infamous web site site that encourages geocachers to muggle caches and either destroy the containers or hold them for ransom. That web sitet has reappeared and is still being operated by Gerald Roman. The fact that Blue Hood referenced Roman clearly connects that user with [website name removed]. I am surprised that "Blue Hood" still has an active geocaching account and may be using it to muggle other caches, but likely without such obvious logs. Hopefully that web site will get shut down a second time, but any way to connect it with specific users may be helpful to HQ.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Keystone

August 29, 2016

I'd set up a game camera and get his photo, then post the photo. He probably doesn't want that kind of attention. Who knows you might even know the maggot of know someone who does know him. Probably find other ways to embarrass him with the photo as well

7.4k · August 29, 2016

I'd set up a game camera and get his photo, then post the photo. He probably doesn't want that kind of attention. Who knows you might even know the maggot of know someone who does know him. Probably find other ways to embarrass him with the photo as well

Unless you own the land the cache is hidden on, setting up a game camera certainly requires permission of the land owner.

August 29, 2016

I'd set up a game camera and get his photo, then post the photo. He probably doesn't want that kind of attention. Who knows you might even know the maggot of know someone who does know him. Probably find other ways to embarrass him with the photo as well
Unless you own the land the cache is hidden on, setting up a game camera certainly requires permission of the land owner.

Not if it's on public land. Hunters put out these game cams all the time in state parks, state forests etc.

If your cache is on private property then donn't you need permission to put it there in the first place? Just ask the landowner who you already know if you can put a cam up. Probabably be OK

7.4k · August 29, 2016

I'd set up a game camera and get his photo, then post the photo. He probably doesn't want that kind of attention. Who knows you might even know the maggot of know someone who does know him. Probably find other ways to embarrass him with the photo as well
Unless you own the land the cache is hidden on, setting up a game camera certainly requires permission of the land owner.

Not if it's on public land. Hunters put out these game cams all the time in state parks, state forests etc.

If your cache is on private property then donn't you need permission to put it there in the first place? Just ask the landowner who you already know if you can put a cam up. Probabably be OK

It would be wise to check with the land owner or manager of any land, public or private. There are serious implications involved when someone installs a camera for the purpose of spying on other people.

August 30, 2016

I'd set up a game camera and get his photo, then post the photo. He probably doesn't want that kind of attention. Who knows you might even know the maggot of know someone who does know him. Probably find other ways to embarrass him with the photo as well
Unless you own the land the cache is hidden on, setting up a game camera certainly requires permission of the land owner.
Not if it's on public land. Hunters put out these game cams all the time in state parks, state forests etc.If your cache is on private property then donn't you need permission to put it there in the first place? Just ask the landowner who you already know if you can put a cam up. Probabably be OK
It would be wise to check with the land owner or manager of any land, public or private. There are serious implications involved when someone installs a camera for the purpose of spying on other people.

There's serious implications for vandalizing someone's cache as well.

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries. I can't do the same if I climb a tree and shoot into your back bedroom window

August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.

Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help.

(just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).

August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).

Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public

7.4k · August 30, 2016

I'd set up a game camera and get his photo, then post the photo. He probably doesn't want that kind of attention. Who knows you might even know the maggot of know someone who does know him. Probably find other ways to embarrass him with the photo as well
Unless you own the land the cache is hidden on, setting up a game camera certainly requires permission of the land owner.
Not if it's on public land. Hunters put out these game cams all the time in state parks, state forests etc.If your cache is on private property then donn't you need permission to put it there in the first place? Just ask the landowner who you already know if you can put a cam up. Probabably be OK
It would be wise to check with the land owner or manager of any land, public or private. There are serious implications involved when someone installs a camera for the purpose of spying on other people.

There's serious implications for vandalizing someone's cache as well.

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries. I can't do the same if I climb a tree and shoot into your back bedroom window

Installing a surveillance camera on someone else's property is quite serious and could lead to very serious consequences for the person responsible. It is reckless to recommend this course of action.

Nobody likes a cache thief, but this is over-the-top and has the potential to do serious harm to geocaching's reputation with land managers.

7.4k · August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).

Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public

There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.

August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).
Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public
There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.

The Ten Legal Commandments of Photography

I. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public space

No difference, ANYONE can photograph ANYONE else in a public place.

Of course if the cache is on private property you should get permission from the landowner, that goes without saying, you had to get permission to place the cache, common sense dictactes you'd need permission for anything including cameras

August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).
Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public
There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.
The Ten Legal Commandments of PhotographyI. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public spaceNo difference, ANYONE can photograph ANYONE else in a public place.Of course if the cache is on private property you should get permission from the landowner, that goes without saying, you had to get permission to place the cache, common sense dictactes you'd need permission for anything including cameras

United States

Local, state, and national laws govern still and motion photography. Laws vary between jurisdictions, and what is not illegal in one place may be illegal in another. Typical laws in the United States are as follows:

Public property

It is legal to photograph or videotape anything and anyone on any public property.[39]

Photographing or videotaping a tourist attraction, whether publicly or privately owned, is generally considered legal, unless explicitly prohibited by a specific law or statute.

Private property

Photography may be prohibited or restricted by a property owner on their property.[39] However, a property owner generally cannot restrict the photographing of the property by individuals who are not within the bounds of the property.[39]

Photography on private property that is generally open to the public (e.g., a shopping mall) is usually permitted unless explicitly prohibited by posted signs. Even if no such signs are posted, the property owner or agent can ask a person to stop photographing, and if the person refuses to do so, the owner or agent can ask the person to leave; in some jurisdictions, a person who refuses to leave can be arrested for criminal trespass, and many jurisdictions recognize the common-law right to use reasonable force to remove a trespasser; a person who forcibly resists a lawful removal may be liable for battery, assault, or both.[40]

Entry onto private property not normally open to the public usually requires permission from the property owner.

Some jurisdictions have laws regarding filming while in a hospital or health care facility. Where permitted, such filming may be useful in gathering evidence in cases of abuse, neglect, or malpractice

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Edited August 30, 2016 by eosxt

7.4k · August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).
Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public
There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.

The Ten Legal Commandments of Photography

I. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public space

No difference, ANYONE can photograph ANYONE else in a public place.

Of course if the cache is on private property you should get permission from the landowner, that goes without saying, you had to get permission to place the cache, common sense dictactes you'd need permission for anything including cameras

Installing a surveillance camera on someone else's property is not the same thing as taking a photograph of someone.

The photography isn't the issue. Installing equipment on someone else's property is the issue.

Spamming the forum with "commandments" you've copied from someone's blog doesn't change the fact that it is reckless to recommend this sort of behaviour. Placing a geocache does not give the cache owner carte blanche to modify the land or install surveillance equipment on it.

August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).
Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public
There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.
The Ten Legal Commandments of PhotographyI. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public spaceNo difference, ANYONE can photograph ANYONE else in a public place.Of course if the cache is on private property you should get permission from the landowner, that goes without saying, you had to get permission to place the cache, common sense dictactes you'd need permission for anything including cameras
Installing a surveillance camera on someone else's property is not the same thing as taking a photograph of someone.The photography isn't the issue. Installing equipment on someone else's property is the issue.Spamming the forum with "commandments" you've copied from someone's blog doesn't change the fact that it is reckless to recommend this sort of behaviour. Placing a geocache does not give the cache owner carte blanche to modify the land or install surveillance equipment on it.

I never said to "modify the land" or to place a camera without permission on private property. All I said was that it IS legal to photograph the vandals and that's what I would do. I just did a quick Google to try to support what I knew to be true, you can Google it yourself and find your own sources.

I DID say to ask permission if it's on private property.

I don't understand why you don't believe it is legal when it clearly is

August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).
Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public
There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.

The Ten Legal Commandments of Photography

I. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public space

No difference, ANYONE can photograph ANYONE else in a public place.

(sticking to the US legal environment): Except of course where you can't. Restrooms are public places...can you spell "sex offender registry?"

ATM machines are often public places, but if you are caught recording someone punching in their PIN, you will be charged with a felony.

It may be a public elementary school. Yep, it's public. But you are not going to even get inside the door, never mind get a chance to take pictures.

But the issue here is not whether you can take photos. It's whether you can install equipment on property you don't own.

7.4k · August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).
Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public
There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.
The Ten Legal Commandments of PhotographyI. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public spaceNo difference, ANYONE can photograph ANYONE else in a public place.Of course if the cache is on private property you should get permission from the landowner, that goes without saying, you had to get permission to place the cache, common sense dictactes you'd need permission for anything including cameras
Installing a surveillance camera on someone else's property is not the same thing as taking a photograph of someone.The photography isn't the issue. Installing equipment on someone else's property is the issue.Spamming the forum with "commandments" you've copied from someone's blog doesn't change the fact that it is reckless to recommend this sort of behaviour. Placing a geocache does not give the cache owner carte blanche to modify the land or install surveillance equipment on it.

I never said to "modify the land" or to place a camera without permission on private property. All I said was that it IS legal to photograph the vandals and that's what I would do. I just did a quick Google to try to support what I knew to be true, you can Google it yourself and find your own sources.

I DID say to ask permission if it's on private property.

I don't understand why you don't believe it is legal when it clearly is

Even so-called "public" property is governed by laws and regulations depending on the jurisdiction. It would not be prudent to install any sort of surveillance equipment at a geocache without clear and explicit permission from the appropriate authority.

Googling this silliness is rather pointless as the specific rules and laws vary widely, and the rules about public photography are not the point. Placing a geocache on public or private land is a privilege that requires permission. It would be reckless to add surveillance equipment to a geocache site without getting explicit permission.

I haven't commented on the legality as that isn't the point either.

Edited August 30, 2016 by narcissa

13.8k · August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.

Yep ... well ... sorta...

- Hopefully got a good pic of that big guy who saw you take pics of him and his "escort" just before he punches you in the nose.

You may "have a right", but good luck explaining that to someone...

August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).
Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public
There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.
The Ten Legal Commandments of PhotographyI. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public spaceNo difference, ANYONE can photograph ANYONE else in a public place.
(sticking to the US legal environment): Except of course where you can't. Restrooms are public places...can you spell "sex offender registry?"ATM machines are often public places, but if you are caught recording someone punching in their PIN, you will be charged with a felony.It may be a public elementary school. Yep, it's public. But you are not going to even get inside the door, never mind get a chance to take pictures.But the issue here is not whether you can take photos. It's whether you can install equipment on property you don't own.

You CAN place a camera IF you have permission like I said 10 times already, so given that I guess we ARE in agreement that taking photos is NOT an issue, just like I said.

Also, what's up with using phraseology such as "install equipment"? that deceives people who don't realize that a game camera is about the size of a shoe and is "installed" with a strap that is wrapped around a tree.

And did I miss where the OP said it was on private property? Because we keep harping on that as well, not that it even matters because I said to ask permission

3.3k · August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).

Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public

There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.

Vigilantism implies some type of "self-help" remedy, like confronting the penetrator, publishing info about him, etc. If the camera is okay under local law, and if it is placed with permission of the property owner, then the theft or vandalism images can be provided to the local police.

The police may or may not do anything - I've seen criminal charges for certain actions (not caching-related) filed in one county, while in the next county over the exact situation is considered a civil matter (leaving you to go to small claims court with a lawsuit).

7.4k · August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).
Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public
There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.
The Ten Legal Commandments of PhotographyI. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public spaceNo difference, ANYONE can photograph ANYONE else in a public place.
(sticking to the US legal environment): Except of course where you can't. Restrooms are public places...can you spell "sex offender registry?"ATM machines are often public places, but if you are caught recording someone punching in their PIN, you will be charged with a felony.It may be a public elementary school. Yep, it's public. But you are not going to even get inside the door, never mind get a chance to take pictures.But the issue here is not whether you can take photos. It's whether you can install equipment on property you don't own.

You CAN place a camera IF you have permission like I said 10 times already, so given that I guess we ARE in agreement that taking photos is NOT an issue, just like I said.

Also, what's up with using phraseology such as "install equipment"? that deceives people who don't realize that a game camera is about the size of a shoe and is "installed" with a strap that is wrapped around a tree.

And did I miss where the OP said it was on private property? Because we keep harping on that as well, not that it even matters because I said to ask permission

Permission must be granted whether it is private or public property. Installing equipment is an entirely separate issue than taking photographs. The ease of installation is not relevant. The land owner or land manager must be aware of the equipment. I can only imagine the kind of uproar this sort of nonsense could cause if one of these cameras was found at a geocache, placed without permission. We have enough trouble with bomb scares and now here's the forum recommending electronic voyeurism and vigilante justice.

7.4k · August 30, 2016

Double post, sorry everyone.

Edited August 30, 2016 by narcissa

August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).
Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public
There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.
The Ten Legal Commandments of PhotographyI. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public spaceNo difference, ANYONE can photograph ANYONE else in a public place.
(sticking to the US legal environment): Except of course where you can't. Restrooms are public places...can you spell "sex offender registry?"ATM machines are often public places, but if you are caught recording someone punching in their PIN, you will be charged with a felony.It may be a public elementary school. Yep, it's public. But you are not going to even get inside the door, never mind get a chance to take pictures.But the issue here is not whether you can take photos. It's whether you can install equipment on property you don't own.
You CAN place a camera IF you have permission like I said 10 times already, so given that I guess we ARE in agreement that taking photos is NOT an issue, just like I said.Also, what's up with using phraseology such as "install equipment"? that deceives people who don't realize that a game camera is about the size of a shoe and is "installed" with a strap that is wrapped around a tree.And did I miss where the OP said it was on private property? Because we keep harping on that as well, not that it even matters because I said to ask permission
Permission must be granted whether it is private or public property. Installing equipment is an entirely separate issue than taking photographs. The ease of installation is not relevant. The land owner or land manager must be aware of the equipment. I can only imagine the kind of uproar this sort of nonsense could cause if one of these cameras was found at a geocache, placed without permission. We have enough trouble with bomb scares and now here's the forum recommending electronic voyeurism and vigilante justice.

YOU were the one that brought up "installing equipment and modifying the land" in order to mislead people into thinking that placing a game cam was on par with installing an oil drilling rig.

And, no, I DO NOT need permission to place a game camera on public land such as a state park or forest. Hunters do this all the time and the park rangers know about it and don't arrest the hunters because it is NOT ILLEGAL.

So, what a hunter can, but I can't?

Good grief, I'm done with this.

7.4k · August 30, 2016

Also, there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, I could stand across the street of a strip club and take pictures of people going in and out of it all day and post those pics of the net with no worries.
Yes you could. But if or if not you're in possible legal trouble depends on the jurisdiction you're in. I'd suggest to check the local laws before doing that. Excusing by other law breaking as stealing a tupperware won't help. (just for the records: over here in Germany it is mostly illegal to publically photograph people who don't want to or are not aware of beeing photographed - this includes cameras in the forests and car dash cameras. The law is more complicated to be discussed in this forum, but generally each person owns the right on his/hers picture, especially when publication of any kind is involved).
Yeah, I'm sure different countries have different laws. In the USA though it would be fine. In our country most stores and other businesses have cameras inside their store and out in their parking lot. Even the law enforcement people have cameras spying on the public
There is quite a difference between a surveillance camera installed by a land or business owner to protect his/her own property, and a game camera surreptiously placed without permission on someone else's property for the purpose of vigilantism.
The Ten Legal Commandments of PhotographyI. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though it’s technically private property, being open to the public makes it public spaceNo difference, ANYONE can photograph ANYONE else in a public place.
(sticking to the US legal environment): Except of course where you can't. Restrooms are public places...can you spell "sex offender registry?"ATM machines are often public places, but if you are caught recording someone punching in their PIN, you will be charged with a felony.It may be a public elementary school. Yep, it's public. But you are not going to even get inside the door, never mind get a chance to take pictures.But the issue here is not whether you can take photos. It's whether you can install equipment on property you don't own.
You CAN place a camera IF you have permission like I said 10 times already, so given that I guess we ARE in agreement that taking photos is NOT an issue, just like I said.Also, what's up with using phraseology such as "install equipment"? that deceives people who don't realize that a game camera is about the size of a shoe and is "installed" with a strap that is wrapped around a tree.And did I miss where the OP said it was on private property? Because we keep harping on that as well, not that it even matters because I said to ask permission
Permission must be granted whether it is private or public property. Installing equipment is an entirely separate issue than taking photographs. The ease of installation is not relevant. The land owner or land manager must be aware of the equipment. I can only imagine the kind of uproar this sort of nonsense could cause if one of these cameras was found at a geocache, placed without permission. We have enough trouble with bomb scares and now here's the forum recommending electronic voyeurism and vigilante justice.

YOU were the one that brought up "installing equipment and modifying the land" in order to mislead people into thinking that placing a game cam was on par with installing an oil drilling rig.

And, no, I DO NOT need permission to place a game camera on public land such as a state park or forest. Hunters do this all the time and the park rangers know about it and don't arrest the hunters because it is NOT ILLEGAL.

So, what a hunter can, but I can't?

Good grief, I'm done with this.

It really depends on the jurisdiction and nobody mentioned anything about being arrested. I expect that in most places where hunting is permitted, there are specific rules about the equipment that may and may not be used for hunting there. Game cameras may be permitted for hunting in some places and not others.

Geocachers need to be very mindful of the way our actions are perceived by land managers who can easily turn around and ban us (and have done so for things far less dire than unwarranted camera surveillance of park visitors).

The specific permissions and regulations vary by jurisdiction and by the intended purpose of the "public" land. What you assume to be true of land you use in one place is certainly not true everywhere. Permission to be on land and place a geocache does not necessarily imply permission to install surveillance equipment. The nature of the installation is irrelevant.

What would you do

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment