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FOLLOW THE RULES


Bergie Bunch
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According to the rules/guidelines of geocaching, you cache at your own risk. I want to thank the unknown cacher who has made caching Western PA look bad. I recently placed this cache Wally

at our local Big Box store after gaining permission from the local manager. A few days later, according to the log, cachers were chased off. I called the store, and the manager said a cacher fell out back and wanted the store to pay their medical bills. Now, the cache has to be removed and she stated that the regional manager was going to see all caches are removed from corporate property. Thanks to this mindless person looking for a payday from a store with deep pockets, we are going to loose caches and look bad. Thanks folks!

Edited by Bergie Bunch
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According to the rules/guidelines of geocaching, you cache at your own risk. I want to thank the unknown cacher who has made caching Western PA look bad. I recently placed this cache Wally

at our local Big Box store after gaining permission from the local manager. A few days later, according to the log, cachers were chased off. I called the store, and the manager said a cacher fell out back and wanted the store to pay their medical bills. Now, the cache has to be removed and she stated that the regional manager was going to see all caches are removed from corporate property. Thanks to this mindless person looking for a payday from a store with deep pockets, we are going to loose caches and look bad. Thanks folks!

 

People are stupid and its getting worse by the day. Welcome to the world.!

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I think I hurt my leg on that cache. Is it too late to get some compensation? :(

 

Wait a minute.....I just checked and it was an arm-chair cache. Does that still count? :D

 

I'm not greedy or anything, but I think I really did bust my knee on that 3 position lever thingy. :huh:

 

Oh well, that's what I deserve for getting in a hurry....trying to be a ...........CONTENDER!! :D

 

(I'm almost up to 22 caches already! :D )

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According to the rules/guidelines of geocaching, you cache at your own risk. I want to thank the unknown cacher who has made caching Western PA look bad. I recently placed this cache Wally at our local Big Box store after gaining permission from the local manager. A few days later, according to the log, cachers were chased off. I called the store, and the manager said a cacher fell out back and wanted the store to pay their medical bills. Now, the cache has to be removed and she stated that the regional manager was going to see all caches are removed from corporate property. Thanks to this mindless person looking for a payday from a store with deep pockets, we are going to loose caches and look bad. Thanks folks!

I'm not so sure the cacher has a leg to stand on if the store had given you permission. Recreational use statutes might be stretched to cover this situation.

 

If this is true, that is. Sounds like BS to me. If someone is going to get hurt on a PnG then maybe geocaching is not the hobby for them.

 

And now for the obligatory anti-trache comment:

...we are going to loose caches and look bad.
I'm not so sure that is exactly accurate. :huh: Loosing those types of caches might make the hobby look better. Edited by CoyoteRed
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Well here it goes! Rules are for conformists and are not really intended for most people so don’t expect everyone to follow them. Caching at a commercial establishmen; Baaaaaaa. I have no sympathy for anyone involved! At least if one falls in the woods they may be able to sue the bears or maybe the forest service if it happens in a national forest.

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*shakes head*

 

Ahh, America. The land of lawyers. Thankfully, there are as many lawyers trying to pass stupid crap as there are trying to stop it... which sadly makes for a vicious cycle of there being more and more leech... uhh... lawyers around.

 

Y'know what'll happen if someone sues (or attempts to, anyway) a store because they got hurt in their parking lot? The same thing that'll happen when someone attempts to ban all geocaching for X reason or in X locations.

 

Absolutely nothing.

 

Because that's what people do best, when it comes to having to take action that involves putting themselves anywhere remotely close to the line of fire. Nothing. And those that try Mr. "sue the store for my own stupidity", that'll get thrown out of court 5 seconds after it gets in. Otherwise Canadian Tire would have paid my deductable when someone T-boned my car in their parking lot a while back.

Edited by Kabuthunk
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Similar bad-apple attitude to the cachers who think its ok to steal a neat TB, just cuz they found it. Steal the game pieces often enough and there wont be any....good ones, at least. I get no joy from a long hike just to find a Mickey D's toy. Show me a sharp coin, or unique TB! But, then just because its sharp, I'm NOT gonna STEAL it! A few bad apples in every sport/game/activity seems to be the norm, now. And thats a shame since caching is such simple fun.

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hmmmmmm - methinks there is a bit more to this story then has been revealed thus far........

 

...and losing PNG lamppost caches at wally worlds nationwide just isn't going to exactly ruin my day.

I'll wager the injured cacher was also burned by a cup of scalding McD's coffee just before heading out for the hunt. Unfortunately stupid things like this are actually happening in the USA these days and have been for a long time. The courts and juries find all sorts of ways to make innocent indiviudals and companies pay for other people being stupid (or smart) and managing to injure themselves. Hope it doesn't add a black mark to our game.

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I recently placed this cache Wally

at our local Big Box store after gaining permission from the local manager.

 

At least you asked permission, which is more than most Walmart parking lot cache hiders do. Kudos to you for doing that.

 

I won't delve into my personal opinions of Walmart parking lot caches or sue-happy people here, except to say I feel pretty much the same way about both of them.

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Perhaps this is that cacher finally making good on that promise?

 

Well, TIB was from Pa., albeit from the other end of the State (Delaware Water Gap area). So what the OP is saying here, is permission was obtained from the store manager before placing the cache? Just curious, why wouldn't you mention that in the body of the cache description? I would never find a cache on private property if the cache description didn't tell me I was welcome to play a goofy internet game there, as it has in the two dozen or more "front yard" caches I've found. Thousands of caches tell me that that's just me though. :huh:

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel
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According to the rules/guidelines of geocaching, you cache at your own risk. I want to thank the unknown cacher who has made caching Western PA look bad. I recently placed this cache Wally

at our local Big Box store after gaining permission from the local manager. A few days later, according to the log, cachers were chased off. I called the store, and the manager said a cacher fell out back and wanted the store to pay their medical bills. Now, the cache has to be removed and she stated that the regional manager was going to see all caches are removed from corporate property. Thanks to this mindless person looking for a payday from a store with deep pockets, we are going to loose caches and look bad. Thanks folks!

 

No log. No cacher. Just a random doofie who doesn't get the concept of personal responsibility. I heard a story about a Realtor who used to furnish their demo homes with big box furnishings for that home touch. They would take everything back and get a refund before their return period expired. Then they would buy another batch. They thought this was a right. Amazing.

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I'll wager the injured cacher was also burned by a cup of scalding McD's coffee just before heading out for the hunt.

Comparing what we've heard about this alleged cacher to Stella Liebeck is unfair to Stella. McD's kept their coffee at 185F by corporate policy; most food establishments keep coffee at 140F max, and it is well known that liquids at 185F cause third-degree burns too fast to escape. McD's had previously received over 700 compaints about coffee burns. It was so bad that no less than the Shriners Burn Institute had asked McD's to cool their coffee -- and McD's ignored the top burn institute in the world. Stella Liebeck only wanted her medical bills paid and didn't sue until McD's stonewalled.

 

So maybe the subject of this thread does deserve our scorn. Or maybe we haven't heard the whole story. Oh, but that's never happened here before, or in the press before ...

 

Edward

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Perhaps this is that cacher finally making good on that promise?

 

So what the OP is saying here, is permission was obtained from the store manager before placing the cache? Just curious, why wouldn't you mention that in the body of the cache description?

Pretty much all of the OP's caches have private notes to the reviewer regarding permission. It makes the OP's caches a real pleasure to review.

 

That is quite common, actually. Lots and lots of hiders seem happy to share permission details with the reviewer privately, yet are shy about posting anything on the cache page. I don't know why that is. I just shrug my shoulders and publish. I only insist on statements of permission in limited circumstances.

 

This knowledge does make it interesting when I read all the threads where people make blanket statements about the lack of permission for parking lot caches.

 

Back on topic, I'm not at all convinced that there was an accident involving a geocacher. If I had a name and a geonick, I'd be convinced.

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I tried to get some info out of the manager Keystone, and she said I cant say much because of them HIPPE laws, assuming she meant HIPPA, which don't apply to the store, but. As for being a cacher, she told me the gentleman in question told her he was looking for the cache when he fell over a ditch in the grass. What is ironic, I tripped in the same ditch placing the cache. And it was not a lamppost hide, it was in a wooded area behind the store.

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If I sued for every time I tripped, hurt myself, cut my legs open on briars, got poison ivy, etc, etc while hunting a cache... I'd be rich. Caching is done at our own risk. What is wrong with some people? :D

 

This is exactly why many land owners/agencies won't allow caches on their property, the liability risk isn't worth it. :laughing:

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Perhaps this is that cacher finally making good on that promise?

 

So what the OP is saying here, is permission was obtained from the store manager before placing the cache? Just curious, why wouldn't you mention that in the body of the cache description?

Pretty much all of the OP's caches have private notes to the reviewer regarding permission. It makes the OP's caches a real pleasure to review.

 

That is quite common, actually. Lots and lots of hiders seem happy to share permission details with the reviewer privately, yet are shy about posting anything on the cache page. I don't know why that is. I just shrug my shoulders and publish. I only insist on statements of permission in limited circumstances.

 

This knowledge does make it interesting when I read all the threads where people make blanket statements about the lack of permission for parking lot caches.

 

Back on topic, I'm not at all convinced that there was an accident involving a geocacher. If I had a name and a geonick, I'd be convinced.

 

I've seen you mention this more then once in similiar threads, Keystone. I don't know why people would be "shy" about posting this information on the cache page. I know I like to see it, be it on a suburban front porch, a rural wooded property, or in a parking lot. I don't believe myself (or anyone) has ever made a blanket statement that no parking lot caches are placed with permission.

 

Yes, I'd better get on topic. Ironically, if permission was stated on this cache page, it would be more likely that an ambulance chaser would contact Wally World! I really don't think an experienced geocacher would try to pull this stunt. You assume all risks while seeking a cache.

 

I'm telling you man, could be trackinthebox. :laughing:

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I've been curious about how you get permission at a store like Wal-Mart or any of the thousands of other parking lots that hold caches? Because in most cases, the store is not the land owner. Wal-Mart is a corporation, does a store managers word override the liability insurance issue? Also who's liable when something does happen like in this story here? The land owner or the store? These places are free to the public for purposes of the business that is on the property, not outside private internet scavenger hunt games. Can Mr. Keystone give examples of what he gets for permission slips? Are they from Joe the cart collector or the store manager or the owner of the property? Just curious.

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... I'm not at all convinced that there was an accident involving a geocacher. If I had a name and a geonick, I'd be convinced.
I'm not convinced that anyone actually got injured, at all. I'm wondering if the manager didn't simply reconsider granting permission, but not want to admit that he flip/flopped.

 

I find it highly unlikely that a geocacher (or anyone, really) would trip in a ditch behind the store and then wander around to the front of the store, go in, find a manager, and whine about it. I considered sue-happy ne'er-do-wells and even professional suers, but I think that they would be more likely to simply pull the classic slip-n-fall.

 

Further, I don't believe that the regional manager will do anything. In fact, I find it highly unlikely that Wal-Mart corporate isn't already fully aware of geocaching in their parking lots and surrounding areas. This is especially true given the number of caches that have been documented to have been placed on property with permission. If they wanted these caches to be pulled, they would have been gone long before now.

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I blame gravity.

 

Anyone want to start a class action lawsuit against the National Gravity standardization network? those b@$t@rd$!

Actually, the exact strength or intensity of gravity at the earth's curface does vary across the globe from spot to spot, due to many factors, and thus I suggest that perhaps, until we know more about the WalMart incident, and to what extent gravity was involved as a culprit, that any and all new caches be placed only in those spots which exhibit significantly less (at least one or two percent less, if possible) gravitational strength than all other nearby areas. In fact, if I recall correctly, somewhere on the web the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) offers a whole series of online gravitational intensity maps, and geoachers could use them as an aid in placing their new caches.

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I blame gravity.

 

Anyone want to start a class action lawsuit against the National Gravity standardization network? those b@$t@rd$!

Actually, the exact strength or intensity of gravity at the earth's curface does vary across the globe from spot to spot, due to many factors, and thus I suggest that perhaps, until we know more about the WalMart incident, and to what extent gravity was involved as a culprit, that any and all new caches be placed only in those spots which exhibit significantly less (at least one or two percent less, if possible) gravitational strength than all other nearby areas. In fact, if I recall correctly, somewhere on the web the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) offers a whole series of online gravitational intensity maps, and geoachers could use them as an aid in placing their new caches.
Wouldn't the variance tend to cause more inadvertant trip-and-falls when departing the cache area?
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"And remember there's never a fee unless we get money for you" :D:laughing::D

 

A little inside joke, seeing as this happened in my area (Western PA)..

 

now that's funny! also from western pa and get the reference.

 

Bergie-sorry about your cache. guess this is one we can't break!!! there's not much you can do for sue happy people-hard to believe a cacher would be this way-but could be. man, to count all the bruises, cuts, scraps, PI, near fall, etc. That's just from placing the event caches at Moraine State Park recently. think I should sue the state park that allowed me to place them. it's their fault I choose a thorny area for them. it's their fault there's mud on the trail that I slipped in and almost fell. It's their fault PI is growing all around the trails. people just don't have responsiblity for their own actions anymore-it's always someone else's fault.

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... I don't know why people would be "shy" about posting this information on the cache page....

Same reason I don't post that I'm the lawful owner of my house, or that my car is fully insured, , or plaster a sign on my laptop that it's not running pirated software. Think of it in terms of "need to know". I don't post on my trash can that it has been packed in accordance with local trash can packing regulations (theyse exist, I got a ticket. the other day). The less information I share the less questions I have to deal with. Underpromise, Overdeliver. Enjoy the Cache.

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I blame gravity.

 

Anyone want to start a class action lawsuit against the National Gravity standardization network? those b@$t@rd$!

Actually, the exact strength or intensity of gravity at the earth's curface does vary across the globe from spot to spot, due to many factors, and thus I suggest that perhaps, until we know more about the WalMart incident, and to what extent gravity was involved as a culprit, that any and all new caches be placed only in those spots which exhibit significantly less (at least one or two percent less, if possible) gravitational strength than all other nearby areas. In fact, if I recall correctly, somewhere on the web the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) offers a whole series of online gravitational intensity maps, and geoachers could use them as an aid in placing their new caches.
Wouldn't the variance tend to cause more inadvertant trip-and-falls when departing the cache area?

Well, it was on a hill. Hills having mass do exert their own gravitational attraction and whould influence a persons ability to walk. I think building a store near a hill is utterly irresponsable for this reason. San Francisco should have never been settled. It also explains Hillbilly's. All that brain damage from tripping so much due to the lateral force generated by the hills mass causing bumblefootedness.

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Well, it was on a hill. Hills having mass do exert their own gravitational attraction and whould influence a persons ability to walk. I think building a store near a hill is utterly irresponsable for this reason. San Francisco should have never been settled. It also explains Hillbilly's. All that brain damage from tripping so much due to the lateral force generated by the hills mass causing bumblefootedness.

 

Could we push the GPS Sats back a little further then? Maybe we would be able to stick a few caches in orbit and still get good readings from them - That would certainly negate much of the gravity related problems us geocachers have, and make it much safer for all involved!

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I've been curious about how you get permission at a store like Wal-Mart or any of the thousands of other parking lots that hold caches? Because in most cases, the store is not the land owner. Wal-Mart is a corporation, does a store managers word override the liability insurance issue? Also who's liable when something does happen like in this story here? The land owner or the store? ...

You have several issues here.

First of all, insurance can require that their polcyholder have certain policies in place. However they are not the land manager. Then the store can own the land, or just lease it. If it's a lease the land onwer may be able to grant permission, or the terms of the lease would allow for exclusive occupation. Then the store would have the sole right to grant permission. Then you get into corporate stucture formal and informal. There is no person in charge of "caches" so you end up with the person who has assumed (or been assigned) general decision making authority for the grounds. They have a boss that can countermand any permissions. That boss has a boss and so on.

 

Real vs. Formal authority is another thing. The general manager may have the offical authority but the Janitor the actual authority since he's the go to guy for all things related to the building and it's infrastructure. The obvious chain of command isn't always the correct way to get things done.

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I'll wager the injured cacher was also burned by a cup of scalding McD's coffee just before heading out for the hunt.

Comparing what we've heard about this alleged cacher to Stella Liebeck is unfair to Stella. McD's kept their coffee at 185F by corporate policy; most food establishments keep coffee at 140F max, and it is well known that liquids at 185F cause third-degree burns too fast to escape. McD's had previously received over 700 compaints about coffee burns. It was so bad that no less than the Shriners Burn Institute had asked McD's to cool their coffee -- and McD's ignored the top burn institute in the world. Stella Liebeck only wanted her medical bills paid and didn't sue until McD's stonewalled.

 

So maybe the subject of this thread does deserve our scorn. Or maybe we haven't heard the whole story. Oh, but that's never happened here before, or in the press before ...

 

Edward

 

Sorry Edward, Couldn’t disagree more.. If you are DRIVING with any liquid in your hand then you take responsibility of what happens be it spilling boiling hot coffee in your crotch or that little old lady you just ran over because you weren't paying attention. It is people like that that cause labels on hair curlers that state, "don't use orally". It's ridiculous.

 

my .02c

 

-HHH :cry:

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Well, it was on a hill. Hills having mass do exert their own gravitational attraction and whould influence a persons ability to walk. I think building a store near a hill is utterly irresponsable for this reason. San Francisco should have never been settled. It also explains Hillbilly's. All that brain damage from tripping so much due to the lateral force generated by the hills mass causing bumblefootedness.

 

 

Sorry bout that RK! ;) It's not lateral force gravity that affects us "Hillbillys", I should know cuzzzz I are one! :D

 

The reason for our unsteady gait is not caused by anything other than the forces of the MOON!

 

"Moonshine" to be exact! ;)

 

Yeppers! When we get a snoot full of proper corn-squeezed Moonshine, we can't even FIND the building you are talking about! We can't even find the HILL! It all looks L-E-V-E-L, just like the stuff we are drinking! :cry::D

Edited by chuckwagon101
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That doesn't sound like a cacher to me. I wonder if it was just some muggle that got hurt near the cache, and the manager assumed it was a cacher.

 

I think that is probably true. Makes me wonder what the outcome of the situation would have been if the cache owner just put the cache out there without telling the manager of the store? Wonder if the manager would have "assumed" it was a geocacher? I miss the days when Geocaching was something you tried to be stealthy doing, not something that is wide-open and known by everyone.

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Well, it was on a hill. Hills having mass do exert their own gravitational attraction and whould influence a persons ability to walk. I think building a store near a hill is utterly irresponsable for this reason. San Francisco should have never been settled. It also explains Hillbilly's. All that brain damage from tripping so much due to the lateral force generated by the hills mass causing bumblefootedness.

 

 

Sorry bout that RK! :) It's not lateral force gravity that affects us "Hillbillys", I should know cuzzzz I are one! B)

 

The reason for our unsteady gait is not caused by anything other than the forces of the MOON!

 

"Moonshine" to be exact! B)

 

Yeppers! When we get a snoot full of proper corn-squeezed Moonshine, we can't even FIND the building you are talking about! We can't even find the HILL! It all looks L-E-V-E-L, just like the stuff we are drinking! ;):)

 

I doubt that the moon has anything to do with it, Snoogans. Of course, if you stare at it enough I'm sure that it will cause hallucinations. B)

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Actually, the exact strength or intensity of gravity at the earth's surface does vary across the globe from spot to spot, due to many factors

 

Wow, this is good to know. My doctor has suggested I lose weight. All I have to do is find a spot with a little less intensity of gravity than my current location. Moving there would be a lot easier than diet and exercise. :):);)

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Caching is done at our own risk.

This is exactly why many land owners/agencies won't allow caches on their property, the liability risk isn't worth it.

Here's an interesting counterpoint: If, (as every cache page claims), caching really is done at your own risk, then why would land managers worry about liability? I'm wondering if the "At Your Own Risk" adage has ever been challenged in court? If so, I wonder what the outcome was?

 

Post script: Put away the torches & pitchforks. I believe in personal responsibility.

 

Post post script: Headhardhat, thank you for pointing out the obvious. I couldn't find a response to that nonsense that was polite enough to keep me from being banned.

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I admit I only read the first 5 or so posts here but in my opinion caches shouldn't mingle with big-box corporations, and geocaching.com should not publish those caches.

 

As for the person suing the store, I think that's downright ridiculous and why this sort of thing continues to happen in North America.

 

I think that it is odd that the FTF reported that there was no logbook in it.

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i work in an emergency room...this would not surprise me in the least. People have come in and told me crazy stories, and I have to sit there and smile and nod like I believe them- for the 3rd time this month!!!

 

So- although I think it is probably the store's over-reaction to a Darwin nominee, people really do need to police themselves.

 

also- HIPPA does not have to do with the store- prev.poster correct.

 

It probably was a wally employee.

 

We have a cute little cache at our wally in the lot- felt naughty finding it, but it was one of our very first finds...still is. We're new!! Has been there a couple years- fun to find.

 

Going to find some nuclear coffee now, or use preparation H orally. Ooh, I am short on time, maybe I dry my hair while soaking in the tub??

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i work in an emergency room...this would not surprise me in the least. People have come in and told me crazy stories, and I have to sit there and smile and nod like I believe them- for the 3rd time this month!!!

 

So- although I think it is probably the store's over-reaction to a Darwin nominee, people really do need to police themselves.

 

also- HIPPA does not have to do with the store- prev.poster correct.

 

It probably was a wally employee.

 

We have a cute little cache at our wally in the lot- felt naughty finding it, but it was one of our very first finds...still is. We're new!! Has been there a couple years- fun to find.

 

Going to find some nuclear coffee now, or use preparation H orally. Ooh, I am short on time, maybe I dry my hair while soaking in the tub??

 

... and don't forget while soaking that the shampoo next to you is "for external use only".

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I'll wager the injured cacher was also burned by a cup of scalding McD's coffee just before heading out for the hunt.

Comparing what we've heard about this alleged cacher to Stella Liebeck is unfair to Stella. McD's kept their coffee at 185F by corporate policy; most food establishments keep coffee at 140F max, and it is well known that liquids at 185F cause third-degree burns too fast to escape. McD's had previously received over 700 compaints about coffee burns. It was so bad that no less than the Shriners Burn Institute had asked McD's to cool their coffee -- and McD's ignored the top burn institute in the world. Stella Liebeck only wanted her medical bills paid and didn't sue until McD's stonewalled.

 

So maybe the subject of this thread does deserve our scorn. Or maybe we haven't heard the whole story. Oh, but that's never happened here before, or in the press before ...

 

Edward

 

Sorry Edward, Couldn’t disagree more.. If you are DRIVING with any liquid in your hand then you take responsibility of what happens be it spilling boiling hot coffee in your crotch or that little old lady you just ran over because you weren't paying attention. It is people like that that cause labels on hair curlers that state, "don't use orally". It's ridiculous.

 

my .02c

 

-HHH :blink:

 

I gotta put in my disagreement here. The coffee was so hot that her burns required skin grafts. She'd have burnt her mouth anyway. The fact that she was driving is irrelevant. They [edited by moderator], and when she came back looking for help with the medical bills, the staff laughed in her face and made derogatory comments about her appearance and whether or not she'd put the burnt portion of her anatomy to use anyway.

 

[Edited by moderator to remove potty language.]

Edited by Keystone
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I gotta put in my disagreement here.

That was not the first time she purchased coffee from that Mickey-D's. She knew exactly how hot it was when she bought it. Knowing this, she still chose to place the coffee in a precarious position, while participating in a fairly dangerous activity.

 

If someone drops a bowling ball on their foot and says, "Ow", I might feel some sympathy for them. If they do it again, all they'll get is scorn.

 

Post script: The alleged comments about her anatomy, as well as the laughter, were a fiction created by her lawyer.

 

Back on topic: Follow the rules! :blink:

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I admit I only read the first 5 or so posts here but in my opinion caches shouldn't mingle with big-box corporations, and geocaching.com should not publish those caches.

 

As for the person suing the store, I think that's downright ridiculous and why this sort of thing continues to happen in North America.

I have to agree....

 

I want to spend as little time as possible at Wallyworld....but to sue is ridiculus

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