+JustAFan Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I read the following blurb on an event cache page among the reasons to attend: "You might get the inside scoop on upcoming caches! " This is kind of disturbing to me. I always knew that some people may have friends who told them things about new hides, but an advertised way to get inside information? I just don't know about this. I'd like to think that the moment I see a cache on my notification, I am getting this at the same time everyone else does. If I had inside information, I definitely would not try to use that to be first to find. What do you think? Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I read the following blurb on an event cache page among the reasons to attend: "You might get the inside scoop on upcoming caches! " This is kind of disturbing to me. I always knew that some people may have friends who told them things about new hides, but an advertised way to get inside information? I just don't know about this. I'd like to think that the moment I see a cache on my notification, I am getting this at the same time everyone else does. If I had inside information, I definitely would not try to use that to be first to find. What do you think? I think that any time I go to an event, I might get the 'inside scoop on upcoming caches'. I might also get information regarding current caches that I haven't yet found. An event is held to discuss geocaching, after all. Quote Link to comment
+Shawn&Holly Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Some place caches for an event that are not listed yet and hand them out at the event for those in attendance. Usually they are listed soon after the event for everyone to find, this sounds like what they meant. Recently I attended an event that also had a handout, I did not nab a find until later that day as directly after the event, I had to go into work I did find it that night soon after it was listed, it was a puzzle and there were only 3 finders from the event. Quote Link to comment
+JoesBar Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 What you will probably hear if you attend is that a new cache will soon be in this park, or that cemetery. I doubt that coords for yet to be published caches will be handed out. Even if that were the case, there is no prize money for FTFs, just braging rights. I recommened attending the event simply because you'll have a good time. You get to meet with other cachers and learn some tricks of the trade. Quote Link to comment
+Vinny & Sue Team Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I read the following blurb on an event cache page among the reasons to attend: "You might get the inside scoop on upcoming caches! " This is kind of disturbing to me. I always knew that some people may have friends who told them things about new hides, but an advertised way to get inside information? I just don't know about this. I'd like to think that the moment I see a cache on my notification, I am getting this at the same time everyone else does. If I had inside information, I definitely would not try to use that to be first to find. What do you think? Numerous past threads have raised this question or similar related issues. This practice does not bother me at all (of course, neither Sue nor I are FTF hounds....!) and it is also a quite widely-accepted practice. Sounds like fun to me! Quote Link to comment
Neos2 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Hey! I went to a caching event just last Saturday. While I was there, a few folks told me about caches they had recently decided to place, and the areas they would be in if they were published. They asked me if I had anything special planned to come out soon. We also recommended a few "must do" caches to some people from out of town. We also ate, traded pathtags, admired TBs, and went out afterward to find a few caches. In general, I have to say I had a really great time. Thanks for asking what I think. I think it was all good fun! Quote Link to comment
+Sono/Rad Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Go to the event, meet more cachers, and have a good time! Quote Link to comment
+Team Cotati Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 It's all about having fun. Don't worry about it. So long as there is fun being had, all is well. Quote Link to comment
+Stargazer22 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Attend the event and have a good time meeting some faces to go with those names you see in the logs. Take the 'advertising' with a grain of salt. Most of all, have FUN! Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I read the following blurb on an event cache page among the reasons to attend: "You might get the inside scoop on upcoming caches! " This is kind of disturbing to me. I always knew that some people may have friends who told them things about new hides, but an advertised way to get inside information? I just don't know about this. I'd like to think that the moment I see a cache on my notification, I am getting this at the same time everyone else does. If I had inside information, I definitely would not try to use that to be first to find. What do you think? I think it's fine. Talking about geocaching is part of what events are about. Quote Link to comment
+Prime Suspect Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I read the following blurb on an event cache page among the reasons to attend: "You might get the inside scoop on upcoming caches! " This is kind of disturbing to me. I always knew that some people may have friends who told them things about new hides, but an advertised way to get inside information? I just don't know about this. I'd like to think that the moment I see a cache on my notification, I am getting this at the same time everyone else does. If I had inside information, I definitely would not try to use that to be first to find. What do you think? It's common for people to put out new caches near events, ask for the caches to not be published until after the event, and pass out the coordinates to those in attendance. Nothing wrong with that. What happens to a cache prior to it being published, is no ones business but the owner's. Quote Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Frequent at events I have been to. Somebody has hidden a few new caches and they hand out the coordinates to those that attend. The caches get published another day or two later. I see nothing wrong with that. Quote Link to comment
+tozainamboku Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 What is it about FTF hounds? Why do they feel that they are entitled to a level playing field to have an equal chance to get a FTF on every cache? FTF is a made up competition that a few people participate in. They want the rest of the world to modify they way they hide caches to comply with their made up rules. Other than listing the acronym FTF in the glossary, Geocaching.com has nothing to say about the first to find. They don't record this in the online logs. It's even generally conceded that first to log online does not equal FTF. There isn't an accepted rule about when you can claim FTF. If a cache owner wishes to give the coordinates for an unpublished cache at an event that is their prerogative. You can attend the event and have a chance to be FTF like everyone else who attends or you can whine about it being unfair in the forum. I won't tell you that you shouldn't have fun running out at all hours to beat the other FTF'ers to a cache, if that is what you enjoy. I suspect that you still have plenty of opportunities to do this. Perhaps its just easier to view the caches that might get announced at the event as being ineligible for your FTF game; although someone will probably claim FTF on them. Quote Link to comment
+Okiebryan Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 (edited) My wife and I hosted an event in Western OK last year. One of the local cachers handed out coordinates for 2 caches that had not been approved yet. He wanted the opinions of "beta testers". We all went and found them, and gave our opinion. As a result, he changed those 2 into a 2 stage multi. We signed the log "BETA TESTERS-NOT FTF" and indicated that on the logs on GC.com. Others got to claim the FTF once the cache was published. I hide caches all the time and my wife and kids are not there when I hide them. However, since they have heads up that I am hiding something, and they often saw me camo the container and know what they are looking for, they never claim FTF on my caches. They can find them and log them, but only after a few other cachers have found and logged them. That's how we roll... I hope this helps. Above all, remember...it's JUST a game. Edited February 12, 2008 by Okiebryan Quote Link to comment
+StumpWater Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I feel a long stretch in the gulag is warranted. Maybe the one at N 65 21.444, E 131 34.697. Scoop: I'll be placing a cache there soon! StumpWater Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 We signed the log "BETA TESTERS-NOT FTF" and indicated that on the logs on GC.com. Others got to claim the FTF once the cache was published. Beta tester or not, it doesn't change the fact that they were the second to find the cache. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 We signed the log "BETA TESTERS-NOT FTF" and indicated that on the logs on GC.com. Others got to claim the FTF once the cache was published. Beta tester or not, it doesn't change the fact that they were the second to find the cache. I disagree. I suspect that most people do. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 We signed the log "BETA TESTERS-NOT FTF" and indicated that on the logs on GC.com. Others got to claim the FTF once the cache was published. Beta tester or not, it doesn't change the fact that they were the second to find the cache. I disagree. I suspect that most people do. Then most people don't know the definition of first. Quote Link to comment
+KRnlKilR Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I have been told, by those who attend the same events that I attend, that only at the events will they share additionaly hints or clues about difficult caches they have hidden. If you don't attend the event, then you can't really ask for additional hints. I think this somewhat promotes the social aspects of Geocaching. I recently attended the same event that Neos 2 attended, and let me tell you, inside information or not, I wouldn't have missed the event for anything. Good food, good conversation, good friends, good times! Always remember that this is just a sport/hobby/obsession, and have a good time! Just my $0.02. Keep the change. Quote Link to comment
Guyute1210 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) We've had CITO's the past two years in one of the State parks in our area, and we've worked with another cacher to have a couple new caches placed just for the event. It's a good way to give other cachers that have cleared the area some new caches to look forward to. That area wasn't as cache rich as some places, and were usually some great hikes to a vista or cool rock formation that was not usually visited by park goers. Last years the caches placed were there to highlight a few awesome little known waterfalls. These were all published the day after the event or later that evening. It's all about fun, and nothing nefarious. Edited February 13, 2008 by Guyute1210 Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 What is it about FTF hounds? Why do they feel that they are entitled to a level playing field to have an equal chance to get a FTF on every cache? I don't think that you can call the OP a "FTF hound" exactly. If you will take a look at his profile, he's reasonably new at the game. I do, however, sense a FTF hound in the making, otherwise I don't think that he'd be asking this question. Quote Link to comment
+PhxChem Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 There isn't an accepted rule about when you can claim FTF. In most cases, it's when you're the....you know, the first to find it. Quote Link to comment
+Kit Fox Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I read the following blurb on an event cache page among the reasons to attend: "You might get the inside scoop on upcoming caches! " This is kind of disturbing to me. I always knew that some people may have friends who told them things about new hides, but an advertised way to get inside information? I just don't know about this. I'd like to think that the moment I see a cache on my notification, I am getting this at the same time everyone else does. If I had inside information, I definitely would not try to use that to be first to find. What do you think? I think you should read all of these past threads +Unpublished +FTF I can't seem to find the thread, but I recall one cachers whose caches was not approved, but someone had already logged a FTF on his cache. Quote Link to comment
+Okiebryan Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 We signed the log "BETA TESTERS-NOT FTF" and indicated that on the logs on GC.com. Others got to claim the FTF once the cache was published. Beta tester or not, it doesn't change the fact that they were the second to find the cache. I disagree. I suspect that most people do. Then most people don't know the definition of first. FTF is something you gotta CLAIM. We didn't claim FTF. What subsequent finders did is not my business. Another way to look at it. Olympic event. I come in first. Then I announce to the world that I started early or took 'roids or something... anyway, I DISQUALIFY MYSELF. They give the Gold to the 2nd place finisher. FTF. I think most cachers would agree. I know that EVERYONE without exception at that meeting agreed. Quote Link to comment
+meralgia Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I was heading to an event and enabled the three caches I had hidden before the event. Unfortunately someone who wasn't going to the event was able to nab them before those at the event, so there isn't any guarantee that you'll get inside info at the events!! Quote Link to comment
+weinema Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 In our region it's also usual at events that we have cache-description handouts of 1-5 new caches. The caches will be published at the late evening or next day. Nobody is worry 'bout that. And: Anyhow, non premium members get the information ca. 7 days later by mail. Premium member directly (normally redirected to cell-phone). So you also can claim instant notification ;-) Happy hunting, Martin Quote Link to comment
+JustAFan Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 (edited) For what it is worth, at the time I had originally posted this topic, I had never even attempted a FTF. Since that time I actually tried one. I searched for 30 minutes along with a bona-fide FTF hound. No luck. Later that night, the owner double checked his posted coords. They were not posted correctly. I was searching 185 metres from the actual hide. It was 9:30 at night, the wind chill was -30C and I darn near got frostbite for my trouble. The owner nonchalantly posted a "sorry guys", and someone else got the FTF shortly after. I emailed the guy who was hunting beside me and he said it doesn't upset him. It happens all the time and it's just part of tryingto get FTF's. He should know, He hae 160 of them. If I ever had any desire to be a "FTF hound" I was broken of it that night. My only purpose to making the original post was that my curiosity was aroused. As an observer, it hardly seemed fair that there was a way to get advanced looks at actual coords for unpublished cachess. I am very new to this "sport" and would like to understand the rules and common practices. Though I have only been geocaching since Dec 9, 2007, I have made 12 hides. I thought it was imperative that I get he coords correct and give non-deceptive descriptions and hints. I did a series where the final was a calculation based on numbers collected at 10 other caches in the series. From the time I submitted it until the time someone found the final, I was on pins and needles, worrying whether the math was going to work as posted. Because of the extra concern I had, the math worked, but only because I triple and quadruple checked it before submitting. From what I have seen here, I should have eased my mind by having a few beta testers give it a try in advance. I never dreamed that this was an acceptable practice. I didn't know that it wasn't even a concern when you didn't get it right. Now I know. I will only use the basic rules for this sport as guidelines. I will squelch my tendency to participate in "fair play" practices. Uhh, I think I will also kick my golf ball back onto the fairway next time I hit it into the rough. Most times, I'm the only one who's gonna know. I think I'm gonna look for a lottery event to attend. It would be much more lucrative to get advance notice of lottery numbers than geocaching coordinates. Thanks for the readjustment of my morality. Edited February 17, 2008 by JustAFan Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 FTF is something you gotta CLAIM. FTF is a simple fact. Either you are the first to find it, or you aren't . It's not something to be claimed or awarded. If there is a sig in that logbook before mine, I ain't the first to find it no matter what I or anybody says. From what I have seen here, I should have eased my mind by having a few beta testers give it a try in advance. I never dreamed that this was an acceptable practice. I didn't know that it wasn't even a concern when you didn't get it right. This is just a listing service. As a cache owner you are free to advertise your cache any way you see fit. If you want to give out coords at an event, put them on a private website, list them on another geocaching website or hire a sky writer to spread them across the sky, that is your business. Nowhere is it written that your cache must be advertised here, or if it is, that it must be advertised here first. There is nothing unfair about publishing your cache elsewhere, or giving your coordinates out before the cache is listed here. Because a subset of geocachers choose to engage in a game within a game, that isn't your concern. FTF hounds take a chance. Maybe someone else will be a bit faster, maybe the coords are bad and maybe the cache was published a month earlier on Navicache. It's all part of the game. Quote Link to comment
+Trucker Lee Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 A few of us in the area met today for lunch and to get aquainted. While there, containers changed hands and I got a peek at one that will appear soon near me. Is this the inside scoop? Quote Link to comment
CoyoteRed Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 FTF is something you gotta CLAIM. FTF is a simple fact. Either you are the first to find it, or you aren't . It's not something to be claimed or awarded. If there is a sig in that logbook before mine, I ain't the first to find it no matter what I or anybody says. From what I have seen here, I should have eased my mind by having a few beta testers give it a try in advance. I never dreamed that this was an acceptable practice. I didn't know that it wasn't even a concern when you didn't get it right. This is just a listing service. As a cache owner you are free to advertise your cache any way you see fit. If you want to give out coords at an event, put them on a private website, list them on another geocaching website or hire a sky writer to spread them across the sky, that is your business. Nowhere is it written that your cache must be advertised here, or if it is, that it must be advertised here first. There is nothing unfair about publishing your cache elsewhere, or giving your coordinates out before the cache is listed here. Because a subset of geocachers choose to engage in a game within a game, that isn't your concern. FTF hounds take a chance. Maybe someone else will be a bit faster, maybe the coords are bad and maybe the cache was published a month earlier on Navicache. It's all part of the game. NAILED! Quote Link to comment
cowcreekgeeks Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 FTF is a simple fact. Either you are the first to find it, or you aren't . It's not something to be claimed or awarded. If there is a sig in that logbook before mine, I ain't the first to find it no matter what I or anybody says. I'd have to agree with Briansnat. IMHO, FTF is FTF or CO-FTF. What would stop me from showing up at a 4 year old cache and CLAIMING "This is the first time I've found this cache...therefore...I'm FTF!" The cache owner would say I'm bonkers and delete my smiley. Perhaps if you want to be a beta tester, don't sign the log or post on the online log. Then, just like the CIA , you were "never there." Just email the cache owner and give him/her your opinions of the cache. Once it's listed on GC.com (if it will be), go back and get your . BTW...I like the idea of beta testers. I plan on using my nongeocaching brothers to test my caches. They will be handed my GPS and some clues. Of course, that may just turn them into cachers... ...then I'll have to find new testers and my brothers will be borrowing my GPS all the time. I'd never get to cache! Quote Link to comment
Mushtang Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 FTF is something you gotta CLAIM. We didn't claim FTF. I tried to CLAIM to the officer that I wasn't really going 90 mph. He said it didn't matter if I claimed I did or not, the fact is that I was driving that fast and he was still going to give me a ticket. I tried to CLAIM to my boss that I'd been working hard all week. He said it didn't matter if I claimed I did or not, my posts were still all over this forum and he was still going to fire me. I tried to CLAIM to my wife that the woman she saw me with.... [story deleted by moderators] I actually claimed FTF once on a just published cache, the log in the cache was empty when I signed it, and I was first to log it online too. Someone else claimed FTF on the cache page shortly after I did. At first I was a little miffed and upset because I'm not a FTF hound so the few that I actually get are by chance. Later I realized that the actual FTF signed the back of the last page of the log book on accident, several hours before I got there. They were waiting for someone else to log it online because the cache owner hid the cache specifically for them to be FTF and gave them the coords before it was listed. This was strange to me, but I immediately understood that I was not actually the FTF (and that nobody except the people finding it could have been). The cache owner felt a little bad about it and decided to award co-FTF to both of us. I protested because I wanted no part of such a silly thing. How can someone give a FTF to the second finder regardless of how the first finder got the coords? The things that FTF hounds do in order to "claim" however many FTFs they have are amazing. No wonder the website doesn't get involved with the FTF side of the game. Quote Link to comment
+linuxxpert Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 What you will probably hear if you attend is that a new cache will soon be in this park, or that cemetery. I doubt that coords for yet to be published caches will be handed out. Even if that were the case, there is no prize money for FTFs, just braging rights. I recommened attending the event simply because you'll have a good time. You get to meet with other cachers and learn some tricks of the trade. Most of my new caches hold "prize money" Quote Link to comment
+JustAFan Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 One last statement from me. The truth is, NO ONE will ever get the chance to clain a FTF on my caches before it is published on GC.com. I suppose someone could get it by accident. Or a reviewer could find it. But, I will never give out information that gives anyone an advantage in finding a cache. It goes against my sense of fair play. I put nice prizes (I think) in my caches for FTF. If I give away the cords before the cache is published, I might just as well give the geocoin, or whatever, to my buddy and not bother with the cache. There are several topics about "The degradation of our game". This is just one more thing that taints the game for neophytes like myself. It reduces certain aspects of the game to an "old boys club" where you can get advantage by being buddies with fellow cachers. The experienced guys get planty of advantage just through their experience. Why do they need to set up caches just so a buddy can get a FTF? It cheapens the value of being FTF. Why not just let them log a find without actually going to the cache? From what I see on other threads, this is happening as well. Also, how is it that many cachers have statistics that show a different number of finds than unique caches? It is very disturbing that there is such a culture of acceptance of doing whatever you want to do in geocaching. I cannot quite get a handle on why it is OK to do things here that would be totally unacceprtable in any other aspect of life. Quote Link to comment
Keystone Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Or a reviewer could find it. Gee, thanks for that positive view of our ethics as volunteers. I steer well clear of the FTF game because of perceptions like that. Quote Link to comment
Mushtang Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Or a reviewer could find it. Gee, thanks for that positive view of our ethics as volunteers. I steer well clear of the FTF game because of perceptions like that. It's good that you don't go after FTFs anyway. That Leprechauns fella in your area gets darn near every FTF within 50 miles of him so you wouldn't stand a chance. Quote Link to comment
+Prime Suspect Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Or a reviewer could find it. Gee, thanks for that positive view of our ethics as volunteers. I steer well clear of the FTF game because of perceptions like that. Quote Link to comment
+Team Cotati Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) A few of us in the area met today for lunch and to get aquainted. While there, containers changed hands and I got a peek at one that will appear soon near me. Is this the inside scoop? No, I don't think so. It is merely the direct result of being one of the most special people on the planet. You're entitled. Edited February 18, 2008 by Team Cotati Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Why do they need to set up caches just so a buddy can get a FTF? It cheapens the value of being FTF. Because it's their cache and it's nobody's beeswax who they give the coordinates to and when. Quote Link to comment
+eagsc7 Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 What is it about FTF hounds? Why do they feel that they are entitled to a level playing field to have an equal chance to get a FTF on every cache? FTF is a made up competition that a few people participate in. They want the rest of the world to modify they way they hide caches to comply with their made up rules. Other than listing the acronym FTF in the glossary, Geocaching.com has nothing to say about the first to find. They don't record this in the online logs. It's even generally conceded that first to log online does not equal FTF. There isn't an accepted rule about when you can claim FTF. If a cache owner wishes to give the coordinates for an unpublished cache at an event that is their prerogative. You can attend the event and have a chance to be FTF like everyone else who attends or you can whine about it being unfair in the forum. I won't tell you that you shouldn't have fun running out at all hours to beat the other FTF'ers to a cache, if that is what you enjoy. I suspect that you still have plenty of opportunities to do this. Perhaps its just easier to view the caches that might get announced at the event as being ineligible for your FTF game; although someone will probably claim FTF on them. Out here in WA, we have a Group of FTF Hounds that go by the same rules... A FTF can only be claimed for the First person to find After the cache is Published If you have pre-publishing access to the coordinates, you can find, but not claim FTF It is NOT good Karma to give others the coordinates to a cache pre-publishing FTL is the First to Log on the website. You can log 2TF(2nd to find) and FTL. You can claim FTF, and FTL If its a puzzle that requires prepratory work to solve, then a FTS can also be claimed as a note on the website. Remember, Its a game. Don't get your pants in a knot. The Steaks Quote Link to comment
+Okiebryan Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) Out here in WA, we have a Group of FTF Hounds that go by the same rules... A FTF can only be claimed for the First person to find After the cache is Published If you have pre-publishing access to the coordinates, you can find, but not claim FTF It is NOT good Karma to give others the coordinates to a cache pre-publishing FTL is the First to Log on the website. You can log 2TF(2nd to find) and FTL. You can claim FTF, and FTL If its a puzzle that requires prepratory work to solve, then a FTS can also be claimed as a note on the website. Remember, Its a game. Don't get your pants in a knot. That's pretty much how we roll here in OK, too. Except the whole FTL and FTS stuff. Nobody here does that. The die-hard fundamentalist FTF definition is one I'll have to agree to disagree with. The most important thing to remember here, is that it's only a game. Play it how you want to play it. Edited February 18, 2008 by Okiebryan Quote Link to comment
+ProjectFred325 Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 They open their mouth, my ears are open. If is so secret, keep yur mouth shut. Quote Link to comment
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