A Smiley Indeed? Not!

July 1, 2006

Two "found it" logs {with grammar/spelling errors intact) posted on one of my caches 2 days after I confirmed it was there:

Cacher1:Found the spot with Cacher2. Lifeline said we had the correct s-pot. This one's meggled.

Cacher2:Were logging it as a Find but it is MIA.We found the spot it was but nothing there but a hole in the Pine needles.We did a Lifeline and confirmed that was the spot,Thanks

I went into surgery the day I confirmed it was there, and was so irked at basically being called a liar, that I had my wife stop by on the way home from the hospital to double check it. It was there, and of course no sigs in new log book.Cachers 1 and 2 have over 4,000 finds between themselves, and I guess it is completely a numbers game for them.

I let them know that they could repost logs when they legitimately found it, and not until then, and deleted those logs pronto. Too extreme?! Am I being too anal retentive? :unsure:

3.8k · July 1, 2006

You done good

July 1, 2006

Excellent!

July 1, 2006

What did they mean by "lifeline"?

July 1, 2006

I don't understand how somebody can claim a smilie without finding the cache but assuming they are at the correct hiding spot. Yes, it certainly would be easy to rack up a lot of "finds" with that logic.

July 1, 2006

I don't know, maybe we are too new and nieve to this game, but we never log a find until we have signed a log book, never thought about doing it any other way. But that is ok with us, we like doing it that way.

You did the right thing.

July 1, 2006

What did they mean by "lifeline"?

When out on a hunt, you can call a friend who has found the cache before, and can help you find it if you're stumped.. This usually prevents a DNF, and the cacher gets to log a smiley instead.

2.4k · July 1, 2006

If only more people would delete bogus finds like that.

The bigger problem is, I've seen cache owners encouraging folks to change the DNF log on their cache to a find, because the cache was missing.

6.4k · July 1, 2006

Too extreme?! Am I being too anal retentive?

Nope. You're doing exactly what you agreed to do when you listed the cache on GC.com:

The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

Good job!

July 1, 2006

What did they mean by "lifeline"?

They phoned another cacher to ask for help - might range from something as basic as confirming coords, or having someone read the description or hint if the calling cacher forgot to bring a copy of the cache page, up through detailed descriptions of exactly where/how the cache is hidden. (As you can see from this case, the other cacher's memory might not always be right, or the person out in the field may misinterpret what they're being told. :unsure: )

I believe the term originates from one of the TV quiz shows where a contestant could phone a friend for assistance. (Maybe "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire"?)

July 1, 2006

Two "found it" logs {with grammar/spelling errors intact) posted on one of my caches 2 days after I confirmed it was there:

Cacher1:Found the spot with Cacher2. Lifeline said we had the correct s-pot. This one's meggled.

Cacher2:Were logging it as a Find but it is MIA.We found the spot it was but nothing there but a hole in the Pine needles.We did a Lifeline and confirmed that was the spot,Thanks

I went into surgery the day I confirmed it was there, and was so irked at basically being called a liar, that I had my wife stop by on the way home from the hospital to double check it. It was there, and of course no sigs in new log book.Cachers 1 and 2 have over 4,000 finds between themselves, and I guess it is completely a numbers game for them.

I let them know that they could repost logs when they legitimately found it, and not until then, and deleted those logs pronto. Too extreme?!

By removing the logs, no not at all.

Am I being too anal retentive?

By posting about it here, probably. Everyone knows it happens. It gets discussed here all the time. Delete the logs and move on. It just seems like by this you might be starting yet another "it's all about the numbers" fire. What difference does it make who it is or how many logs they had between them?

July 1, 2006

When out on a hunt, you can call a friend who has found the cache before, and can help you find it if you're stumped.. This usually prevents a DNF, and the cacher gets to log a smiley instead.

They phoned another cacher to ask for help - might range from something as basic as confirming coords, or having someone read the description or hint if the calling cacher forgot to bring a copy of the cache page, up through detailed descriptions of exactly where/how the cache is hidden. (As you can see from this case, the other cacher's memory might not always be right, or the person out in the field may misinterpret what they're being told. )

I believe the term originates from one of the TV quiz shows where a contestant could phone a friend for assistance. (Maybe "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire"?)

Thank you both.

I thought that was what they meant, but the way it was phrased seemed almost like a specific method or device (ie. WAAS) of which I was unaware.

July 1, 2006

An issue I have with the "lifeline" option!

All cachers, regardless of how hard they try, tend to place the cache back in a different position/location, therefore causing the cache to move. Sure, it may only seem like a few inches to you, but...it adds up. And there are always the ones that will move it further than a few inches. Yes, it may HAVE BEEN exactly where your "lifeline" is telling you it was, but, get off your phone and look around, it very well could now be 10 feet to your left!

38.2k · July 1, 2006

They're playing their own game. How dare you spoil it for them. Who do you think you are? What nerve!

July 1, 2006

They're playing their own game. How dare you spoil it for them. Who do you think you are? What nerve!

Coming from you,briansnat, I feel so ashamed now :laughing: NOT. Thanks folks, for the moral support. I will probably be a pariah around these parts now, as these were/are well known and respected local cachers who apparently dabble a bit on the dark side. Oh well, my conscience is clear at least.

38.2k · July 1, 2006

They're playing their own game. How dare you spoil it for them. Who do you think you are? What nerve!

Coming from you,briansnat, I feel so ashamed now NOT. Thanks folks, for the moral support. I will probably be a pariah around these parts now, as these were/are well known and respected local cachers who apparently dabble a bit on the dark side. Oh well, my conscience is clear at least.

It would be a sad thing indeed if you were to become a pariah because you called out cheaters. In some area its the cheaters who are pariahs.

2k · July 1, 2006

This is about the most obvious reason to delete a log I have ever seen.

If it's muggled (or meggled) or in any way not there - then finding it is impossible is it not? Sheesh... what's next: "I'm logging every caching in North America, because I am in North America - so really I was there"

In this case, it's even WORSE -- the cache WAS there. Either way -- it's not a find at all.

Edited July 1, 2006 by Lemon Fresh Dog

July 1, 2006

Wait a second? all you have to do is get near where the cache is hidden but not find it to get a smilie? Well then I have about 1500 finds then. I mean I drove by a few and saw where it could be, and then there are the ones that are out in those nasty "Woods" and as you know there are ticks and snakes, could be dangerous, but I was near and my GPS pointed towards it, so that a find right?

I have seen people post logs like that all the time." I got close, but didn't find it, was in area so I'm calling it a find" logs. Just post a DNF people, it doesn't mean you failed.

July 1, 2006

They're playing their own game. How dare you spoil it for them. Who do you think you are? What nerve!

Brian, you always have just the right thing to say! You're the best!

July 1, 2006

It would be a sad thing indeed if you were to become a pariah because you called out cheaters. In some area its the cheaters who are pariahs.

Brian, you always have just the right thing to say! You're the best!

3.9k · July 1, 2006

Two "found it" logs {with grammar/spelling errors intact) posted on one of my caches 2 days after I confirmed it was there:

Cacher1:Found the spot with Cacher2. Lifeline said we had the correct s-pot. This one's meggled.

Cacher2:Were logging it as a Find but it is MIA.We found the spot it was but nothing there but a hole in the Pine needles.We did a Lifeline and confirmed that was the spot,Thanks

I went into surgery the day I confirmed it was there, and was so irked at basically being called a liar, that I had my wife stop by on the way home from the hospital to double check it. It was there, and of course no sigs in new log book.Cachers 1 and 2 have over 4,000 finds between themselves, and I guess it is completely a numbers game for them.

I let them know that they could repost logs when they legitimately found it, and not until then, and deleted those logs pronto. Too extreme?! Am I being too anal retentive?

I would delete those logs in a hearbeat, with a quick note to the putative finders explaining why, or alternatively, I would post a note to the cache listing page immediately adjacent to their log entry explaining that their find entry was fraudulent.

3.9k · July 1, 2006

Wait a second? all you have to do is get near where the cache is hidden but not find it to get a smilie? Well then I have about 1500 finds then. I mean I drove by a few and saw where it could be, and then there are the ones that are out in those nasty "Woods" and as you know there are ticks and snakes, could be dangerous, but I was near and my GPS pointed towards it, so that a find right?

I have seen people post logs like that all the time." I got close, but didn't find it, was in area so I'm calling it a find" logs. Just post a DNF people, it doesn't mean you failed.

Last time I flew across the country in a commercial jetliner, I was able to log over 56,800 finds, because I was able to see the terrain where they were hidden, and besides, I thought about each of those caches as well. :laughing:

3.9k · July 1, 2006

An issue I have with the "lifeline" option!

All cachers, regardless of how hard they try, tend to place the cache back in a different position/location, therefore causing the cache to move. Sure, it may only seem like a few inches to you, but...it adds up. And there are always the ones that will move it further than a few inches. Yes, it may HAVE BEEN exactly where your "lifeline" is telling you it was, but, get off your phone and look around, it very well could now be 10 feet to your left!

Or it may just be hidden so well, or camoflagued so well, that the hide is well beyond the abilities of a particular cache hunter that day, and so they will simply not be able to find it.

5.7k · July 1, 2006

I wonder, was that surgery 'stress' related. Crimminie! :laughing:

Edited July 1, 2006 by Team Cotati

July 1, 2006

Am I being too anal retentive?

By posting about it here, probably. Everyone knows it happens. It gets discussed here all the time. Delete the logs and move on. It just seems like by this you might be starting yet another "it's all about the numbers" fire. What difference does it make who it is or how many logs they had between them?

I disagree. The more this kind of game is hidden from the forums, the more some will find an excuse to legitimize this kind of play. A situation like this should be regularly called out, as should all the other recent 'revelations" of less than, well, let's say, rule-bending practices to inflate numbers -- pocket caching, logging your own caches to circumvent rules, cheesy cache vandalism for speed purposes, moving caches from coordinates to facillitate fake logs... these weren't very well-known until the forums exploded last month. Some may want to play this way, but I'll bet that of a majority of geocachers will find any of this distasteful.

Sort of a "checks and balances" system -- heck, even the Supreme Court would agree to keep it out in the open... :laughing:

Edited July 1, 2006 by Metaphor

July 1, 2006

Am I being too anal retentive?

By posting about it here, probably. Everyone knows it happens. It gets discussed here all the time. Delete the logs and move on. It just seems like by this you might be starting yet another "it's all about the numbers" fire. What difference does it make who it is or how many logs they had between them?

Actually posts like these, that of the op's, help those of us new to the game get a good idea of how it really should be done. I read the forums alot for do's and dont's. Yes most of them are common sense and I a little confused as to how some think it is OK to log a find when it is clearly not a find. :laughing:

2.7k · July 1, 2006

Wait a second? all you have to do is get near where the cache is hidden but not find it to get a smilie? Well then I have about 1500 finds then. I mean I drove by a few and saw where it could be, and then there are the ones that are out in those nasty "Woods" and as you know there are ticks and snakes, could be dangerous, but I was near and my GPS pointed towards it, so that a find right?

I have seen people post logs like that all the time." I got close, but didn't find it, was in area so I'm calling it a find" logs. Just post a DNF people, it doesn't mean you failed.

Last time I flew across the country in a commercial jetliner, I was able to log over 56,800 finds, because I was able to see the terrain where they were hidden, and besides, I thought about each of those caches as well.

I just downloaded and installed Google Earth. All your caches are belong to us. :laughing:

2.3k · July 1, 2006

Well, that will just about do it for me, then...looks like I got 'em all...

Gee, I never knew it would be so easy!

Does that mean I won?

2.7k · July 1, 2006

Two "found it" logs {with grammar/spelling errors intact) posted on one of my caches 2 days after I confirmed it was there:

Cacher1:Found the spot with Cacher2. Lifeline said we had the correct s-pot. This one's meggled.

Cacher2:Were logging it as a Find but it is MIA.We found the spot it was but nothing there but a hole in the Pine needles.We did a Lifeline and confirmed that was the spot,Thanks

I went into surgery the day I confirmed it was there, and was so irked at basically being called a liar, that I had my wife stop by on the way home from the hospital to double check it. It was there, and of course no sigs in new log book.Cachers 1 and 2 have over 4,000 finds between themselves, and I guess it is completely a numbers game for them.

I let them know that they could repost logs when they legitimately found it, and not until then, and deleted those logs pronto. Too extreme?! Am I being too anal retentive?

I would have deleted the finds too. I've learned that the number of finds isn't a direct indication of someones geocache experience. I would encourage them to leave a proper DNF log. A kind email should also help them understand what they did or didn't do to have their finds deleted.

1.1k · July 1, 2006

Yes, and using the same logic, my mortgage payment is due Monday. I intend to pay it, the money is waiting in my checking account, I even know where the checkbook is, so I'll simply claim the payment has been made and demand my receipt.

Now to pay off the credit card :laughing:

July 1, 2006

All your caches are belong to us.

LMAO! But seriously, why do people think they can log a find for a cache when they clearly haven't found it...sheesh... :laughing:

11.3k · July 1, 2006

All your caches are belong to us.

LMAO! But seriously, why do people think they can log a find for a cache when they clearly haven't found it...sheesh...

Who knows, but here is a long-running thread about the practice . . . :laughing:

2.3k · July 1, 2006

Cacher1:Found the spot with Cacher2. Lifeline said we had the correct s-pot. This one's meggled.

Cacher2:Were logging it as a Find but it is MIA.We found the spot it was but nothing there but a hole in the Pine needles.We did a Lifeline and confirmed that was the spot,Thanks

I could have sworn this is what DNF is for. My son and I went caching yesterday and we were pretty sure that we were on top of the places where 2 caches should have been. We DNF'ed them and then shot off an email explaining in detail where we looked so that the owner could decide whether or not they needed checking.

As it was, we got an email back stating that both caches were indeed missing and would be taken care of. We already have plans to go back and find those later. We didn't find anything, so there definitely was no reason to post a find log.

I DNF'ed one cache that was a 1/1 three times. We kept going back because it was still being found by other cachers. Had these cachers been logging finds for the sake of a smilie and not really finding it, I would have been ticked off when I found out that it was actually missing.

We finally found it on our fourth attempt.

I don't really care how someone else plays their game as long as it doesn't harm others. Claiming a find when you haven't found anything, however, can cause a lot of problems for cachers coming behind you and trusting that it is there.

July 1, 2006

Use of the word, "meggled" warrants an immediate deletion. HTH.

July 1, 2006

On a diffrent note, I logged one as a find and a SBA at the same time. The cache had been muggled, container smashed, swag all over the place, but I did find the log nearby. I gathered up what I could of the container, and all the contents I couuld find as well as the log. Signed the log and took the whole mess with me when I left. The first thing I did when I got home was contact the owner and let him know what happened and that I had the log and some of the contents. that was the first one I logged so other cachers would know it was gone. But I did find the cache container, and sign the log. So I have no problem with that smillie.

July 1, 2006

I think you did right by deleting, and telling them why. And it never hurts to refresh in the forums, how most of us like to play. It drives us crazy when we look for a cache that was found recently with smilies only to read the logs after searching for 20 minutes. "We found the spot but its not there". In your case you did great to varify that it is still there. Well done.

14.3k · July 1, 2006

I let them know that they could repost logs when they legitimately found it, and not until then, and deleted those logs pronto. Too extreme?! Am I being too anal retentive?

Not extreme at all! :laughing:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ... Edmund Burke

July 1, 2006

All your caches are belong to us.

Heh, heh. Nice. (although some moronic translater somewhere is probably annoyed you misquoted him - "caches" should be singular :laughing:

)

As for the logs, I would have deleted them and e-mailed the loggers to post a DNF, without a second thought.

9.3k · July 1, 2006

these were/are well known and respected local cachers who apparently dabble a bit on the dark side.

You mean they cache with Magellans? The nerve of those lying, cheating &%$#@! :laughing:

2.3k · July 2, 2006

The simple fact is they did not find the cache....delete! I had a cacher email me and say that he found the spot but the cache was missing, and he was sure that he had found the spot. He then emailed me back and asked if he could log it as a find and I said sure if you want. Two days later I went to check on the cache and it was in the right spot with out his sig so I email he and let him know that the cache was there so I was deleting his log, and I did. I have go to spots and was really sure that I found the location but I have logged those as DNF's NOT as found it, if you dont find the cache then you dont log it as a find! IMO

-TJ

July 2, 2006

It was the right thing to do. I have done it a few times under very similar circumstances. I have one cache that is not all that hard to find, but it can be tricky of you don't think a little bit. There have been "numbers runners" come through and say they were in the right spot, but it was gone, so they logged it as a find. When I would go check, it was still there, so I emailed them and told them I was deleting their logs. In only one case did the person get indignant and in fact called me a liar. I didn't respond as I didn't think it worth it.

In another case, I had a local DNF the same cache twice over three days. So I emailed and asked where they were looking. She emailed back and told me, so I gave her a hint to guide her. She still couldn't find it, so I emailed her and gave her some ideas on how to look for it...I noticed she was a new cacher, so tried to include some hints and ideas on caching itself. She finally found it and was so elated she called me on the phone to thank me for all the help and for making it fun. She has since gone on to find a lot of caches, but has told me that one is her favorite still.

So I guess my point is that deleting those was fine, and people should not worry about putting down a DNF, it's not an admission of failure at all.

July 2, 2006

Ok, hate to sound like a newb, but what is pocket caching?

July 2, 2006

Two "found it" logs {with grammar/spelling errors intact) posted on one of my caches 2 days after I confirmed it was there:

Any chance one of the 'finders' names begins with Z?

July 2, 2006

Two "found it" logs {with grammar/spelling errors intact) posted on one of my caches 2 days after I confirmed it was there:

Any chance one of the 'finders' names begins with Z?

Team Teuton: Nope :laughing:

And furthermore, one of the heavy numbers folks busted says he won't hunt my hides anymore... boohoohoo. I guess I am supposed to beg him to please log them all, but that isn't going to happen. I cannot control much of anything in the GC world, except for my own hides, and well, I guess I did.

The crying to mutual friends has already started, as have the emails from them asking why I would do something so drastic as delete his log. I am a pariah indeed, as I highly suspected would occur, but at least my conscience is clear.

Mayhaps we should change our screen name to "Team Legal Loggers" with the mission of actually doing the clearly unneccesary task of signing the logs of caches we truthfully find. What a shocker that will be to some folks.

Anyway, I got what I wanted and needed to hear from this discussion, namely that a numbers ho is a numbers ho, and what they will do to log a smiley, and that my actions were spot on and in line with the general concensus of the GC world. Thanks to all who followed along and contributed. Cache on!

11.3k · July 2, 2006

Ok, hate to sound like a newb, but what is pocket caching?

This is a practice in some areas where people at Events have a cache page printout, or a logbook, in their pocket. If someone walks up to them and asks if they have a cache in their pocket, they are allowed to log it as a Find. It is my understanding that some of these are Archived caches that no longer exist.

Where this is done, it is "normal." :laughing: Where this practice never got started, Geocachers shake their heads and wonder how this could have ever gotten started . . . and why it is allowed.

5.3k · July 2, 2006

The crying to mutual friends has already started, as have the emails from them asking why I would do something so drastic as delete his log. I am a pariah indeed, as I highly suspected would occur...

Recently there have been several threads in which some people have quite forcefully made the claim that all the cheating that goes on doesn't hurt anyone.

Your post is a perfect illustration of why they are wrong. That you have been ostracized and abused for not allowing cheating shows why the cheating is so bad for the sport/hobby/whatever.

Edited July 2, 2006 by fizzymagic

July 2, 2006

Ok, hate to sound like a newb, but what is pocket caching?

This is a practice in some areas where people at Events have a cache page printout, or a logbook, in their pocket. If someone walks up to them and asks if they have a cache in their pocket, they are allowed to log it as a Find. It is my understanding that some of these are Archived caches that no longer exist.

Where this is done, it is "normal." Where this practice never got started, Geocachers shake their heads and wonder how this could have ever gotten started . . . and why it is allowed.

Wow. That has to be the dumbest thing I have heard of. Someone has made the game of tag a smilie. :laughing:

July 2, 2006

The crying to mutual friends has already started, as have the emails from them asking why I would do something so drastic as delete his log. I am a pariah indeed, as I highly suspected would occur, but at least my conscience is clear.

Mayhaps we should change our screen name to "Team Legal Loggers" with the mission of actually doing the clearly unneccesary task of signing the logs of caches we truthfully find. What a shocker that will be to some folks.

I guess if it were me I would send a blanket e-mail back to all who compained to you with their logs and the fact that you varified that it was still there and point blank ask them if this is the way they think the game should be played. I doubt that any of them would back of the facts of logging without finding a cache that is truely there. We would do the same thing.

July 2, 2006

And it gets even more fun....eyeball this thread while you can, I get the distinct impression it is soon to be locked and removed , as it has caught someone's eye further up the food chain, and they sent me an email about it.

The aforementioned "cacher1" went through the overtly childish step of deleting ALL of his logs on our hidden caches, which caught someone's attention, and that someone thinks that we personally deleted all of their logs on our caches in a hissy fit. IP addresses are logged,right?

This is a prime example of what can go wrong when someone cheats. My reputation has been a bit besmirched, and I guess I'll be looking for other folks to cache with in the area.

All because of a couple of blatant numbers ho's. Good gravy...what a can of worms.

July 2, 2006

which thread

A Smiley Indeed? Not!

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