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South Carolina Legislation Meeting


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This bill is specific to Letter Boxing and Geocaching, it does not prohibit people fro using GPSes for other reasons such as surveying and other applications.

The bill was amended to define geocaching to include the use of a GPS to find a location. So use of a GPS in other activities (such as surveying) to locate anything in one of the areas would be considered "geocaching" and be banned. I doubt that was the intent of the bill, but it is how it reads. Basically the amendment was probably drafted without much thought or knowledge of how it could be overbroad.

Edited by carleenp
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So when granny punches her doctor's office into her car's nav system, she will be geocaching and therefore breaking the law in the great state of South Carolina.

 

I guess GM will also be breaking the law if they use a vehicle's onStar system to locate a stolen or car jacked vehicle.

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The archeologist has been working with Hydee for a while now and now supports the side of geocaching and is impressed with our communication channels. We have provided a direct line of contact for any offical with concerns the emails are recvied by the local reviewer, Hydee and a member of the SCGA steering committee.  No communication will fall through the cracks.

 

You can take issue #1 off your list.

Jeremy I am very relieved to hear this and this should be mentioned in every letter that gets mailed out on this issue.

 

#1 is based on my conversation with one of the authors of the bill, she was very adamant that the 1 year with no responses to the State Archeologist was an example that we(geocachers) can not police ourselves. The fact that the State Archeologist has changed his position on this issue was of no real concern to her.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that point #1 is a lie, but there is certainly no proof of a registered letter that I know of. At the minimum the whole idea that we were inaccessible is a complete crock and proven time and again to be untrue. If the person wants to live the lie there isn't much we can do about it. I agree with that point. I'm just disgusted about point #1 given how open we are at geocaching.com with our information and contact points.

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Maybe CR you could explain exactly how you were able to get in touch with your Representative so that others could follow in your footsteps.

It's pretty simple. You find out who represents you here and call them up. Just be polite and state that you oppose this bill as the reasons why.

 

Everyone I've talked to so far, including the sponsor of the bill, was very easy to talk to. Of course, the sponsor and I didn't agree on many things, but it was a nice conversation anyway.

 

This has actually been a learning exprience for me. I can't say a fully pleasant one because of how dear geocaching is to me and the threat involved, but still I think I will walk away from it with at least some pleasant experiences.

 

I think everyone should give it a try!

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I've disabled all of my caches except for the upcoming CITO cache and posted the information listed below. My caches only cover a small portion of SC. Hopefully, those planning a visit to my area will take notice and contact the individuals listed. A volume of contact and the potential loss of money those individuals spend should at least pique the interest of politicians and those encouraging tourism.

 

April 20 by Swamp Thing

This cache is disabled pending the outcome of bill H.3777 in the South Carolina Legislature.

If this is an inconvenience, especially if you are planning to visit the area, please contact your South Carolina representative AND senator or Ms. Mullis, South Carolina's Tourism Development Manager.

 

Ms. Carole Mullis

Tourism Development Manager

South Carolina Dept. of Parks, Recreation & Tourism

1205 Pendleton St.

Suite 225

Columbia, SC 29201

 

April 20 by Swamp Thing

Additional contact information:

Ms. Mullis at:

803 734-1449

cmullis@scprt.com

 

and

 

Chad Prosser

Director of Parks, Recreation and Tourism

cprosser@scprt.com

803-734-0166

Edited by Swamp Thing
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"The fact that the State Archeologist has changed his position on this issue was of no real concern to her."

 

What Dr. Leader (State Archeologist) said was that so long as specific written permissions were obtained from the appropriate landowner, that if we Geocache there was and should be of no concern to him. He is in support of the bill with the amendments. I would not say he is anti-Geocache or against us. He only wishes to protect what is his job to protect but I would also not say he is on our side.

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The archeologist has been working with Hydee for a while now and now supports the side of geocaching and is impressed with our communication channels. We have provided a direct line of contact for any offical with concerns the emails are recvied by the local reviewer, Hydee and a member of the SCGA steering committee.  No communication will fall through the cracks.

 

You can take issue #1 off your list.

Jeremy I am very relieved to hear this and this should be mentioned in every letter that gets mailed out on this issue.

 

#1 is based on my conversation with one of the authors of the bill, she was very adamant that the 1 year with no responses to the State Archeologist was an example that we(geocachers) can not police ourselves. The fact that the State Archeologist has changed his position on this issue was of no real concern to her.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that point #1 is a lie, but there is certainly no proof of a registered letter that I know of. At the minimum the whole idea that we were inaccessible is a complete crock and proven time and again to be untrue. If the person wants to live the lie there isn't much we can do about it. I agree with that point. I'm just disgusted about point #1 given how open we are at geocaching.com with our information and contact points.

We have already determined that Rep. Ceips has been less than honest with some portions of her argument as presented to the committee. This leads me to believe that she could also have been less than honest about supposed failed attempts to contact Geocaching.com.

 

I'm not calling her a liar mind you, but she may have a veracity deficiency.

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There is also this person to write to. Job description seems like a good match for letters regarding this bill:

 

S.C. Department of Parks, Recreation & Tourism

Phil Hamby, Coordinator of Legislative Affairs; Project Manager, Community &

Economic Development

(803) 734-0139 Fax: (803) 734-0670

phamby@scprt.com

Alt. Contact: Rhonda Williams (803) 734-0141

Serves as a liaison between SCPRT and members of the General Assembly. Supports

and encourages new and expanding tourism investment projects for South Carolina.

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Maybe CR you could explain exactly how you were able to get in touch with your Representative so that others could follow in your footsteps.

It's pretty simple. You find out who represents you here and call them up. Just be polite and state that you oppose this bill as the reasons why.

 

Everyone I've talked to so far, including the sponsor of the bill, was very easy to talk to. Of course, the sponsor and I didn't agree on many things, but it was a nice conversation anyway.

 

This has actually been a learning exprience for me. I can't say a fully pleasant one because of how dear geocaching is to me and the threat involved, but still I think I will walk away from it with at least some pleasant experiences.

 

I think everyone should give it a try!

Because I work in the Nebraska State Capitol, I come across State Representatives quite a bit. From my experience they are nice people who are interested in what people have to say. No one should be afraid of approaching their Representative or making a phone call. I will add that a phone call or personal visit is often more effective than a letter. I advise checking with the person's office first to see if you need an appointment and/or find out when they are available. If you just drop in, they might not be there, be busy, or you might interrupt them when they are in the middle of something important. I would guess that they are used to drop ins, but calling first is polite.

 

Just be friendly and polite. They might agree or disagree with you, but generally they will listen to you as long as you are respectful. Don't take any disagreement or questions as being unfriendly. If they ask a question it is because they want to know, and if they disagree, it is because they do, but that allows you to see where they disagree and address it. Their job is to learn about the bills before them and make decisions, so they will often have questions that might seem like they are debating with you. That is a good way for them to work through the issues. These are often busy people with many things going on, so they might not be entirely familiar with all the ins and outs of geocaching. Talking with them can help them become better informed and can provide more information than a letter.

 

I would guess that some people are uncomfortable calling or visiting a Representative, but there really is no reason to be nervous. Part of getting elected is having speaking and people skills and often an outgoing personality (I doubt many overly shy people run for office) . So rarely is a Representative unfriendly or intimidating. Also, as CR noted you can learn alot from it yourself and feel good that you did something.

 

If I lived in SC, I would guess that just about every Representative in the state would have heard from me in person or through a phone call by now (I am definitely not shy and like to meet with people). Since I live in Nebraska I went the email letter route instead.

Edited by carleenp
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if I were at that meeting tomorrow. I remember right, users posting that they said the state people gathered info stating people were digging around and placing items on tomb stones in the cemetery. in a mostly black cemetary.

 

1. I say define digging, and then did any digging disturb graves, not grave yards are 100% graves and did the property owners complain about these items and not random events linked to geocaching

2. people place items on tomb stones all the time. they are called flowers,gifts,trinkets of love, and rememberence.

3. is there any proof that one of their family members isn't buried there, and whats up with the commit that it was a mostly prodomiently black cemetary.so are they saying most geocachers are white vs black. that in itself is rules for seperation of race and is illegal. they bus white kids to black school and black kids to white schools more today then ever and the school borders are always fighting over stuff like this so. its on the grounds to be a racial issue and taken to the supreme court.

 

I know this shouldn't be said but somebody should have the guts to stand up for it and this is just going to enflame alot of people

 

pretty soon we will not able to play basketball in public area's because it brings the wrong kind of people to the area. here in nc alot of public basketball courts are gone for that reason, and I hate it. I love to play basketball out in public parks but alot of them are gone.

 

hence there always a couple of bad apples in the bunch and we just need to throw them out and continue with the good ones for great apple pie everyone can enjoy.

 

thats my 2 cents on it.

 

:laughing:

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Here is the letter I just submitted to the Beaufort Gazette. I was offered the chance to write an oped/commentary piece, rather than a much shorter Letter to the Editor. Thanks go out for those bits drawn from this forum. Let's see how much of it gets edited out before publication, IF it gets published at all. I've heard that some other people's letters have been completely ignored.

 

-------------------------------------------------

There are some who would have you believe that there is a lawless group of individuals who hold clandestine meetings and communicate covertly over the Internet with the intent of invading our lands with reckless abandon, leaving destruction and desecration in their wake.

 

Just who are these people and what are their true motives? They’re not thrill seekers, vandals or scofflaws, there are no rituals, illicit meetings or secret agendas. They’re just nature lovers, history buffs, hikers, bikers and tourists. They’re your family, friends, neighbors and co-workers. They come from all age groups and all professions and they all share a desire to get out and explore the world around them, to see new sights, get some exercise, learn some history and help preserve our heritage.

 

These people are GEOCACHERS!

 

We’re an international community with State and local clubs and associations. We host meetings and events that are open to the public, where we discuss geocaching policies, give classes, swap stories, and make new friends. Each year we organize an international CITO (Cache In / Trash Out) clean up day and sponsor smaller scale CITO events in communities all over the world on a regular basis. Its just one of the ways that we give back to the communities we live in. To see some amazing photos of this year’s effort, follow this link online: http://tinyurl.com/cp6ot

 

There is an archive available online at http://www.geocaching.com/press/ that consists of several hundred informative articles promoting geocaching. The articles are collected from local and national newspapers and magazines around the world, such as the National Geographic, whose business has always been to expose the wonders of the world in which we live, in an effort to perpetuate and preserve those peoples, places and things. Geocaching’s central tenets promote these very same ideals.

 

A recent editorial stated, "Southerners still hold sacred important spaces dedicated to historic events or the people who have inhabited this earth before them." This is exactly why geocaches have been placed in these locations. Our goal is to encourage others to come visit these special places, to help keep them alive, not abandoned and forgotten. Geocachers visiting these scenic and/or historical sites and cemeteries have written about how much they enjoyed the educational, thought provoking and sometimes moving experiences they provided.

 

Detractors say geocachers are irreverent and potentially destructive to sites that the public has spent vast sums of money improving and protecting. In reality, no vandalism, defacement, or excessive wear due to geocachers in the locations in question has ever been reported or substantiated and while some geocachers may seem irreverent, their actions are no less respectful than the multitude of other visitors to these same locations, just more scrutinized.

 

Another complaint was, "They have no right to climb on property and they have no right to trespass on private property. Many cemeteries are private." This is very true, and as a community, we actively enforce this regulation. If a geocache is placed without permission from a private landowner, it is forcibly removed by the community and archived from view on Geocaching.com. Unfortunately, such mistakes are sometimes made, as was the case with a local cemetery in Beaufort, which was neither gated nor posted as private. As soon as the error was discovered, the geocache was immediately removed.

 

Can we citizens stand by and allow the legislature to enact a law based on the ill-advised opinions of a few misinformed individuals? A law that will give South Carolina the dubious distinction of being the only place on Earth to criminalize an activity that, in just a handful of years, has earned the endorsement and praise of the media and has been embraced by countless thousands of individuals, families and organizations in 214 countries around the globe? The world is watching.

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Here is the letter

Good closing paragraph.

Indeed, but they're still not countries - which is rather GC.com's mistake than the author's. Mistakes like that can lead to confusion, which takes the sharpest edge away from the otherwise great statement.

 

Lasse

Finland - Land of the Free :laughing:

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Didn't see it already but here's the link to the current legislation up for consideration:

 

H 3777

 

The current bill, at least as far as I can tell, bans virtual geocaching in places where physical caches are illegal or inappropriate or otherwise already covered by an existing law. In addition the use of a GPS to locate a specific location, like Charleston or Ft Sumter would now be illegal.

 

Perhaps I missed the mark, but it certainly looks like the bill needs further amending to me.

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H.3777 is scheduled for its second reading in Fridays session (4/22/05).

 

The Calendar is off I think. The Journal from yesterday did not show that the bill was read, and it looks like they adjourned today without reading anything. So that would make it first reading. I don't think the website calendar gets updated regularly. Anyway, I am trusting the daily Journal over the Calendar.

 

Please note that for every delay in the reading, there are more opportunities for people to contact Representatives and outside parties or groups that could be affected by the legislation.

Edited by carleenp
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It's not to late to send a note to the Represenatives. I have provided all but one's e-mail address -- I couldn't find Kirsh.

 

e-Mail of the Reps on the bill. <snipped list>

It would likely be good to email those not listed on the bill. The ones listed are less likely to change their mind, while people not sponoring it are more likely to oppose it. So if a person is only going to send a few letters then targeting members of the house that might not be familair with the bill is a good a idea.

 

My solution was to write to all of them.

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I just had an interesting phone call with my representative. He says he will oposse the bill. Why? Not for a vote. He sees no harm in what we do. He actually sees the good we do. This is our second phone conversation and in the first one all I asked him to do was educate himself on the sport/hobby. Try it with your rep. It might work might not but at least they'll know more about it. He wasn't a supporter of the bill originally anyway. You never know where you allies are.

 

X :rolleyes:

 

Oh AWESOME letter HL!

 

Edited for content.

Edited by Clan X-Man
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There is one thing that bothers me, the state archeologist. He said that he tried to make contact with people to get issues regarding caches in sensitive areas resolved and no one responed. I'm finding that hard to believe, even if every cache owner did not respond to e-mails he sent, did he make no effort to contact GC.com. I have no doubt that Jeremy would have repsonded. I would be very curious to see his documentation to how he proceeded with this process.

 

I had not thought about the archeological impact some of the caches might have until I was taking a class at IUPUI. The professor was an archeoligist for the state and said there were hundreds of sites around that were still being studied and were sensative. When I heard this, my first thought was of geocachers. I have, on a number of occasions, asked to speak to the state archeologist for the State of Indiana concerning placement of caches. The office will not acknowledge a site for fear of looters and scavengers. But, when they do find something (a cache) placed near a site, they get all up in arms.

 

As with any activity, skiing, snowboarding, off-roading, surfing, etc, you will get the dregs of society. The thing is, a rotten apple will ruin a pie and it is so hard to police activities like this. I am one of those who likes walking through old cemetaries, day or night. I like the history and he educational caches that bring me there. I don't showboat though, I walk with respect.

 

Peace and good luck,

 

Bear

 

P.S. Wile I am in indiana, my folks live in Elgin and love to cache with us. My dad is a retired army officer and retired from civil service as well. I cannot speak for him, but if you need more support, I will ask him.

Edited by Bear and Ting
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:lol: I knew it would only be a matter of time before this came up...I don't even have to look at the link to know what it is.

 

When I saw it on tv Tuesday night, I figured it would create a backlash. I hope that it might cause our legislators to be a little more sensitive and receptive to thier constituents.

 

We e-mailed our letter to our representative, Mac Toole, last night and mailed hard copies to his home and office addresses; we haven't heard back yet...maybe we might have an positive impact on the representative, especially since he is listed as a sponsor of the bill.

 

J.

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...I had not thought about the archeological impact some of the caches might have until I was taking a class at IUPUI. The professor was an archeoligist for the state and said there were hundreds of sites around that were still being studied and were sensative. When I heard this, my first thought was of geocachers. I have, on a number of occasions, asked to speak to the state archeologist for the State of Indiana concerning placement of caches. The office will not acknowledge a site for fear of looters and scavengers. But, when they do find something (a cache) placed near a site, they get all up in arms. ...

The goal is to protect the sites. That's fine. Secrecy works, that's why they do that. It also means that we walk, hike, bike, picknic, and yes geocache in on and around these sites on occasion and don't know it.

 

If by chance that should happen the best way to protect the site and maintain the secrecy is for the land manager to contact the cache owner or the listing site and ask them to pull the cache. It's simple it's effective and it leaves the secrecy of these locations more intact than any other method.

 

The truth is on most sites they could leave the cache and it's no more of an issue than if a hiker should happen through. We come, we sign the log we go, and the cache eventually goes away. These are not permanent by any stretch of the word. If secrecy works, it works. Why change it?

 

Ironicly if the law passes, nobody sworn to secrecy is going to give written permission, and here is the kicker, Nor will they tell you that you need it, because to do that, they have to reveal that that location is something more than beautiful scenery.

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Please don't consider this bashing, but the link below will demonstrate for non-SC residents the thing of beauty (sarcasm) that our legislature can be.....

 

SC Legislative talents on display

 

Pop-up blockers may interfere with this link ... if so try holding down the CTRL key while clicking. There is a short advert before the news story.

Well, that (and a few other related news stories on that page) explain everything. Sorry SC, you're screwed. :lol:

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OH MY GOD. That was absolutely disgusting. He says the reporter is stupid when she asks him a question regarding his position and than he says that he is not blaming the victims of spousal abuse. But then he says no one in their right mind would go back to an abusive spouse, so therefore anyone who goes back to an abusive spouse is getting what they deserve.

Edited by magellan315
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