South Carolina Legislation Meeting

April 14, 2005

From the year 2002 SOMEwhere on these forums is an IMPRESSIVE photo of a HUGE pile of CITO-gathered garbage... impressive enough so that a land manager in my area saw it and became very pro-caching. If I remember right, it was on the bed of a flatbed truck.

Darned if I know how to find it now... but it would be a good weapon for this particular fight if you can find it.

This cache cleanup event occured in 2002 right here in South Carolina. It has a picture similar to what you describe.

1.2k · April 14, 2005

HA! :lol:

Ban THIS, ya bleepin' politics-types! :huh:

1.7k · April 14, 2005

I hope the SC cachers dealing with the committee plan on making some visual aids of their own for the next meeting. In this case the picture above is worth a thousand words.

Edited April 14, 2005 by magellan315

9.8k · April 14, 2005

I sure hope someone from OUR SIDE plans to write a letter to the editor of that paper.

April 14, 2005

There is another story in the Beaufort Gazette today:

Letter to the Editor

I thought a letter to the editor would have the name of the writer at the bottom.

April 14, 2005

No writers name and they reference the wrong bill near the top of the article.

April 14, 2005

HA!

Ban THIS, ya bleepin' politics-types!

Wow, thats quite the haul!

April 14, 2005

I have read every post in this thread. I live in Syracuse but go to Myrtle Beach, SC every year and have done so for many years. Last year I cached while on vacation and even did a cemetary cache. The discussion here seems that residents (ie Voters) seem to have the greatest impact on the final vote of the legislature. Would it help if I, as a tourist that drops several thousand dollars in SC every year, write to the legislator(s) of the district that I vacation in to let them know this may impact some of their constituents' pocketbooks? Granted, my dollars are trivial to a billion dollar industry but would it help or hurt the cause? I will do what TS and others want.

Good luck

7.2k · April 14, 2005

Wow, thats quite the haul!

Even though I stepped into a yellowjackets nest, I came away feeling good about what we did. We even did a little the next day.

There was another flatbed half-full, too.

A couple of weeks ago, Sissy organized a cleanup locally and we picked up 4500 lbs of trash and 2500 lbs of scrap metal. Feels good doing stuff like that. So much so, we had planned on doing one once a quarter.

Now...

38.2k · April 14, 2005

There is another story in the Beaufort Gazette today:

Letter to the Editor

If I were uninformed about geocaching and read this, I'd be all for banning it. Unfortunately it's loaded with falsehoods, half truths and inflammitory words and written by someone who obviously has no firsthand experience with the sport.

In other words its a load of CODSWALLOP.

Edited April 14, 2005 by briansnat

1.5k · April 14, 2005

I think WaterBaron needs to copyright "bone yard" cause he would be making some serious money right now.

Could we use the one Rep who pulled his name off the bill to talk to some other members and see if they would follow his leadership?

4.8k · April 14, 2005

Since cachers are not the ones who are vandalizing cemetaries and such, banning caching will simply put less eyes in ears in such places to report problems. I would guess that some of these places are not regularly visited and cachers tend to be the type who will notify authorities if there are problems. So the legislation will not solve any of the problems they have had and will place less people around to report or prevent future problems.

I am curious: Why does the judiciary committee have this bill? Here in Nebraska, the judiciary commitee tends to spend its time on more important things such as revising the code of civil procedure, providing for new drug courts, working to computerize the court system etc. It would not be a judiciary committee item here. Well actually..... I don't think it would be a legislative item of any kind here. Caching regulations are left up to park systems and local agencies here, just as they are in other states for a reason. Statewide regulation of an activity that can vary widely from one locale to another is usually unreasonable and often inefficient or ineffective. Plus who is going to pay for the enforcement budget? Or perhaps SC doesn't have some of the budget problems that many states have had? Or perhaps as was pointed out the whole thing is cosmetic for political motivations and there are no intentions to actually enforce anything. If that is the case, I am glad that I live in a less politically driven and more sincere state (a piece of triva: Nebraska is the only state with a non-partisan unicameral legislature).

1.5k · April 14, 2005

Cause they want to make it a law.

:huh:

1.5k · April 14, 2005

So when are they suppose to support the updated bill? The website is pretty good at being up-to-date

7.2k · April 14, 2005

So when are they suppose to support the updated bill? The website is pretty good at being up-to-date

Don't know. I've been hitting refresh over there about every 5 minutes. Still nothing.

Maybe, it's like watching a pot boil. "Okay, everybody, stops looking at it!"

Edited April 14, 2005 by CoyoteRed

4.8k · April 14, 2005

Cause they want to make it a law.

Well any bill is introduced because someone wants to make it a law. The committee doesn't make a difference there.

It just seems like a strange committee for it to be in. Perhaps things work differently in SC. Here the bill would likely be in the general affairs or natural resources committee. The judiciary committee here deals with the judiciary and various legal system issues and procedure. It seems backwards to me. Here it would be as odd as the natural resources committee overseeing a bill to change the rules of evidence.

Perhaps someone knew that the appropriate committee, which might have members more in tune with outdoor hobbies, would reject the bill? I am just theorizing, since I am not very familiar with the SC legislature.

Edited April 14, 2005 by carleenp

April 14, 2005

I am curious: Why does the judiciary committee have this bill?

Not exactly sure, but the primary sponsor is also a member of this committee.

Interesting, no?

24.7k · April 14, 2005

That's a good letter to the editor. It's well worded and crafted for a specific response. If you replace the word "geocacher" with the word "Citizen" or "person" you have the same rant, with the same meaning and the same buzzwords.

Nothing in it is specific and the complete ignorance of reality does demand a response. How many members of the public know they walk on archaolgical sites and never know it? How many fisherman, hikers, and so on? 99.9% or more is how many.

The responce the letter is designed to elicit helps the average citizen cut their own throat because they don't know any better.

The letter does demand a responce and I hope a few dozen locals provide it.

9.2k · April 14, 2005

I am curious: Why does the judiciary committee have this bill?

Perhaps it is because the Judiciary Committee has responsibility for criminal laws, and the bill seeks to make hiding a geocache a criminal offense?

4.8k · April 14, 2005

I am curious: Why does the judiciary committee have this bill?

Perhaps it is because the Judiciary Committee has responsibility for criminal laws, and the bill seeks to make hiding a geocache a criminal offense?

That appears to be it. Criminal code is not often handled in our Judiciary committee here (that often goes to general), but glancing through the SC commitee, they seem to have alot of that type of thing.

April 14, 2005

Have any letterboxers come to the meetings? Do any of the letterboxing groups even know about this legislation? I posted a message on one letterboxing board but as a newbie my posts are still being approved before posting. I know CR and Sissy are boxers. How about any of the others?

-Jen

April 14, 2005

A simple point by point breakdown can show that the arguements hold little to no water. Perhaps a followup letter should be written to the paper, and similar letters sent to law makers.

"Southerners still hold sacred important spaces dedicated to historic events or the people who have inhabited this earth before them."

This is true, which is why caches were placed in these locations. Several cachers that vistited the caches in question logged an excellent educational experience.

[attach relevant log entries]

"...activities are irreverent and potentially destructive to sites that the public has spent vast sums of money improving and protecting."

No vandalism, defacement, or excessive wear due to geocachers in the locations in question has ever been reported or substantiated. And while some cachers may seem irreverant, their actions are no less reverant then most other visitors to the locations in question. In fact, drawing adventure seekers to these locations in order to educate is probably the most reverant activity possible.

Also, there is documented proof that cachers not only uphold the condition of cache locations, but improve it at no cost to tax payers. [site CITO stats] In fact, several cachers have reported a concern for the run down condition of these areas and lack of acceptable monuments/memorials. [site logs and provide pics]

"They have no right to climb on property and they have no right to trespass on private property. Many cemeteries are private."

This is true, and as a community, we actively enforce this regulation. If a cache is accused of not having permission from a private land owner, it is forcably removed by the community and GC.com owners.

"but when cemeteries are referred to as 'bone yards' and described as a wealth of places to have fun"

The term 'bone yard' has been in public usage for several decades. Citing a person's choice of vocabular is no reason to deem an action immoral when that vocabular does not contain vulgarities of swear words. And at what point was fun outlawed in cemeteries? Everyone grieves different, and perhaps the cache owners grieve by celebrating a person's life. What better way to celebrate those before us then to draw more attention to them and make it an enjoyable experience.

"Geocaching is no way to honor the memory of people in cemeteries, especially those in the National Cemetery."

Says who? A local priest here in Indiana actually held a carnival in his backyard as a funeral for his wife. The dead can be celebrated, and I highly doubt that anyone would be arrogant enough to wish that everyone, world wide, cry and mourne their death.

Geocachers everywhere celebrate exactly what our parks and monuments are about. We help maintain them and draw national attention to them. Banning an activity in parks simply to spite a group of outstanding and law abiding citizens is no way to pay proper tribute to our land and our forefathers. So, while others are simply paying lip service to those before us, geocachers are using our land and technology for the purpose that they were created for.

As Allen Chamberlain(Appalachian Mountain Club, 1911) so beatufully stated,

"If more Americans could be induced to visit these scenic treasure houses the public will come to appreciate their value and stand firmly in their defense."

24.7k · April 14, 2005

My stab at a letter to the editor. I'm not local so this is as good as it gets.

Dear editor:

There was a recent letter in support of House Bill XXXXX. Lets take a look at geocaching then the bill. Geocachers are walkers, hikers, bikers, horseback riders, motorists, and pedestrians just like everyone else. The only difference between a geocachers and a picnicker is that when you get to where you are going instead of laying out a blanket and having a picnic, you look for a container containing a log book that you can sign. Then you might have a picnic or you might eat out at a local restaurant that was recommended.

Because geocachers are doing the same things as everyone else but for the container and because we have laws already in place for the protection of our environment you really need to look at what the house bill really accomplishes.

First it defines geocaching as the placement of the container with a log book. That’s it. It’s like banning the placement of a blanket that people who picnic might use. Both the owner of the blanket and the owner of a container are subject to a myriad of laws that protect our environment from harm. Geocahers more so than others because their hobby is online and they are easy to track down. They are motivated to do the right thing.

Geocacachers are just trying to have fun, see the world and stop and smell the roses in their own way. If the house bill is really about protecting cultural resources perhaps it should do more in the way of enabling the enforcement of laws that already exist to do exactly that. Doing more to find and prevent grave robbers, artifact hunters, and vandals would go far more good for us all than banning Tupperware.

Edited April 14, 2005 by Renegade Knight

9.4k · April 14, 2005

You should take a bow, cexshun. That was very well written.

4.8k · April 14, 2005

You should take a bow, cexshun. That was very well written.

I agree. That would be a good letter to send to the committee members. Just edit it into letter format and send.

Edited April 14, 2005 by carleenp

April 14, 2005

Wow, thanks for the compliments guys. While I'm not a professional writer, I do write articles and papers as a hobby. I also spent a brief stint as a speech writer for a local politician (who will remain nameless), so I've been told I have a way with words and can be quite convincing if the subject matter suits me.

Sadly (or perhaps thankfully), I'm not a local to SC so MY words will fall of deaf ears. If someone chooses to use my ideas/writting above, feel free to do so and alter the format/content as needed.

I hope this can be worked out. It's very sad to see this stance in SC because the DNR in Indiana was more then generous with GC restrictions and permits. Our biggest detractor seems to be that people think we cache for the trickets/treasure. However, I'm confident that most do it for the outdoors and adventure. I think the take/put is probably the worst thing to ever happen to GC, as far as PR goes. It's sad when a great event like CITO is overshadowed by the fact that participants of GC get to trade a McToy as a prize. If they only knew how many people carry a garbage bag as standard EQ in their cache pack.

38.2k · April 14, 2005

Have any letterboxers come to the meetings? Do any of the letterboxing groups even know about this legislation? I posted a message on one letterboxing board but as a newbie my posts are still being approved before posting. I know CR and Sissy are boxers. How about any of the others?
-Jen

Its being discussed on their board.

Here is a copy of my letter from the other thread. Its geared towards being sent to representatves, but feel free to slice it and dice it and send it as a rebuttal to that ridiculious editorial - or crumple it up and toss it in the trash. Wait, you can't do that, this is the Internet. In that case just use a marker to black it out on your screen if you don't like it .

Dear __________:

I’m writing to express my opposition to bill H.3777, which bans geocaching and letterboxing in cemeteries, archaeological sites and historic sites in South Carolina. Geocaching is a relatively new sport where a geocache - usually a waterproof container containing a logbook and trinkets - is carefully hidden (but never buried) and the map coordinates are published on the Internet for GPS users to find. Often the point is to introduce people to a place of scenic, historic, geological, or other interest. Letterboxing is a similar activity which originated in England in the late 1800s.

Geocaching and letterboxing are relatively low impact sports that allow families, scout troops, students and other individuals to get outdoors, enjoy some exercise and discover new places. There are thousands of geocaches and letterboxes hidden throughout the world and entities as diverse as the US Bureau of Land Management, the US Forest Service and numerous state, county and local park systems have deemed geocaching and letterboxing to be appropriate uses of public lands. Additionally, many museums, nature preserves and historic sites have embraced geocaching and letterboxing and found them to be an easy, inexpensive way to increase exposure and attract visitors.

In addition to drawing attention to historic sites, geocachers and letterboxers generate user and admission fees and contribute to the local economy. An added benefit is the "Cache In Trash Out (CITO)" ethic practiced by geocachers. The CITO program encourages participants to bring along a garbage bag and pick up any trash they find on their way to the geocache site. Since the sport's beginnings, hundreds of tons of litter have been removed from our parks, cemeteries and historic sites thanks to geocachers.

While I agree that it is important to protect our historic, archaeological and burial sites, geocaching and letterboxing have minimal impact on these areas - no more than that of traditional visitors. Since geocaches and letterboxes are often placed to highlight places of historic interest, a blanket ban as proposed in H 3777 would be detrimental to these sports.

Geocaching and letterboxing have attracted many tourists to South Carolina and provided them with a non-traditional way to experience our rich history. Geocaching and letterboxing have also allowed countless residents to discover our historic sites and have helped create a new generation of advocates for these sacred places.

Accordingly, I ask you to withhold (withdraw) your support for H.3777.

Edited April 14, 2005 by briansnat

1.7k · April 14, 2005

Since this thread is being visited by various South Carolina state employees and residents, I wanted to take to task the National Parks Serivce ban on Geocaching.

The Hopewell Furnace Cache is located on NPS land, scroll down you see the link to the NPS and it was placed with permission. It is possible for Geocaching and historical sites to coexsist with a little bit of communcation. Clearly there is a change in the NPS policy based on a case by case basis of caches, determined by the people who operate these facilities locally and best know what can be done.

18.9k · April 14, 2005

Way to go CEXSHUN!!!!

This is the type of response needed at all levels of this bill. Use thier own pictures, postboards and log edits to argue the weaknesses in the assumptions presented.

Break them down point by point and introduce the aspects of Geocaching that actually aid in the discovery and preservation of our history. Just isn't historical if no one knows about it or visits it or tells the story found there.

3.9k · April 14, 2005

In addition to drawing attention to historic sites, geocachers and letterboxers generate user and admission fees and contribute to the local economy.

I estimate that the forthcoming event which I'm organising will bring at least $6,000 into my local economy in lodging and food expenditures alone!

April 14, 2005

They become even more angry when an avowed goal, according to Logan, is to put a geocache in every S.C. cemetery.

HUH?!?!

Where did this come from?

X

1.7k · April 15, 2005

The question for me that remains is: What can those of us who live outside of South Carolina do to help? I'd like to see Tin Sparrow or one of the other SC cachers post what they would like us to do.

Clearly Ms. Ceips is making a strong case to the other legislators that is not entirely built on accurate facts, but rather emotional hype. Some of the pictures they used in their presentation are not what they appear to be. Other than people being in cemetaries that the local community may not want I have yet to see anything that shows that Geocaching has created the kind of damage they are effectively implying. If I were dealing with the local legislationI would be emphasising that this isssue is about reasonable access, to all the in the bill, based on mutual agreement and not about Geocaching in cemetaries.

Edited April 15, 2005 by magellan315

April 15, 2005

I think I have read all the posts on this topic and wish there was more I could do. I live here in Charleston and have really enjoyed geocaching with my whole family. I can take the time to write a letter if someone will insure it goes to the right place and to edit it for me. Unfortuneitly my plate is full and I am fighting enough battles as it is to spend much time on this one, but here is just one more angle if it helps...

As some of you know I am the mother of 2 special needs kids. Yes they walk and run so you would think we could do all the same things other familes of kids do but we can't. Geocaching is the first thing that we have found that all 4 of us enjoy and can all do together. My first son is 6 and has Extreem ADHD combined with Aspergers syndrome tendencies. While he is under controll for 6-7 hours a day while on meds he is not the rest of the time. He can not sit in a resterant, wait in line, stop talking and we never know when he may through up, poop in his pants or say or do something socially inapropreate. Our second son is 4 and is missing half of his right arm and has Autism. You never know what you are going to get but what ever it is it is usualy loud and he may and usualy does all the same as his brother. In public places he is staired at, bugged by others, kids wont stop asking "where is your arm?" even when he says "I don't know" (his speach is limited) And sometimes you just get tired of it. We don't travel much for obvous reasons. My point to all of this... Geocaching is fun not only to my husband and I for the same reasons as ya'll but to our kids it is something they enjoy doing in a safe inviroment. My 4 year old can yell all he wants out in the forest, he loves the out doors and can climb all over the downed trees without someone bugging him. Our 6 year old loves to see "whats in the box" he can spot a ammo can as well as we can. Out in the forest he can do any of thoes socially inapropreate things and its ok. We are relaxed and enjoying our selves together as a family. I have got another family "hooked" as well with 2 autisic children. They love it too. What other things can a family with members who are mentalily handicaped do together that they all enjoy??? Our boys have played in dozen's of parks we would have never knew were there. And one other plus is it is free! Wow something in America that is free! Anyway, sorry this was long but I wanted to show what other type of people enjoy this 'sport' as well.

1.7k · April 15, 2005

Thumperess, All I can say is spell check your post, print, and mail it. This is exactly the feedback that your legislators need to hear. I'm assuming that if you live in Charleston you are part of Charleston County. If thats the case than this is the list of state house and senate members. It may seem like a long list, even if you only send it to a few you've helped

Glenn F. McConnell [R]

Attorney/Businessman, Pres. Pro Tempore

Dist. No. 41 - Charleston Co.

(H) 27 Bainbridge Dr., Charleston, 29407

Bus. (843) 747-7554 Home (843) 571-3921

Bus. (803) 212-6610 Home

* Robert Ford [D]

Developer

Dist. No. 42 - Charleston Co.

(H) P.O. Box 21302, Charleston, 29413

Bus. (843) 852-0777 Home (843) 852-0777

Bus. (803) 212-6124 Home (803) 798-9220

** George E. "Chip" Campsen III [R] (2002)

Businessman/Attorney

Dist. No. 43 - Berkeley & Charleston Cos.

(H) 360 Concord St., Suite 201, Charleston, 29401

Bus. (843) 722-0123 Home (843) 886-8454

Bus. (803) 212-6016 Home

Converse A. Chellis III [R]

Certified Public Accountant

Dist. No. 94 - Charleston & Dorchester Cos.

(H) 119 Parkwood Dr., Summerville, 29483

Bus. (843) 937-9710 ext.336 Home (843) 873-8459

Bus. (803) 734-3113 Home

James H. Merrill [R]

Public Relations Consultant, Geechie Communications

Dist. No. 99 - Berkeley & Charleston Cos.

(H) 174 Etiwan Park St., Daniel Island, 29492

Bus. (843) 884-9108 Home (843) 849-7306

Bus. (803) 734-3138 Home

Vida O. Miller (Mrs. James Dores) [D]

Retailer, Grayman Gallery

Dist. No. 108 - Charleston & Georgetown Cos.

(H) P.O. Box 3157, Pawleys Island, 29585

Bus. (843) 237-2578 Home (843) 237-8603

Bus. (803) 734-2957 Home

* David J. Mack III [D]

Businessman, Health Care Consultant, Radio Talk Show Host

Dist. No. 109 - Charleston Co.

(H) P.O. Box 70337, N. Charleston, 29415

Bus. (843) 225-4869 Home (843) 760-0198

(2234 Pinehurst Rd., Columbia)

Bus. (803) 734-3192 Home (803) 771-6668

* Harry B. "Chip" Limehouse III [R]

Commercial Real Estate Broker

Dist. No. 110 - Berkeley & Charleston Cos.

(H) 8 Cumberland St., Charleston, 29401

Bus. (843) 577-6242 Home (843) 577-6242

Bus. (803) 734-2977 Home (803) 252-0845

* Floyd Breeland [D]

Retired School Administrator

Dist. No. 111 - Charleston Co.

(H) 105 Moultrie St., Charleston, 29403

Bus. Home (843) 722-1878

Bus. (803) 734-2987 Home (803) 771-8711

* Ben A. Hagood, Jr. [R]

Attorney

Dist. No. 112 - Charleston Co.

(H) P.O. Box 220, Mount Pleasant, 29465

Bus. (843) 972-1000 Home (843) 883-9078

Bus. (803) 734-2950 Home

J. Seth Whipper [D]

Attorney

Dist. No. 113 - Charleston Co.

(H) 4592 Durant Ave., N. Charleston, 29405

Bus. (843) 740-7777 Home (843) 744-1976

Bus. (803) 734-3191 Home

* Robert W. Harrell, Jr. [R]

Businessman

Dist. No. 114 - Charleston & Dorchester Cos.

(H) 8316 Rivers Ave., Charleston, 29406

Bus. (843) 572-1500 Home (843) 556-9075

Bus. (803) 734-3144 Home

* Robert L. Brown [D]

Retired Submarine Electrical System Inspector/Businessman

Dist. No. 116 - Charleston & Colleton Cos.

(H) 5925 Hwy. 162, Hollywood, 29449

Bus. (843) 889-6440 Home (843) 889-8835

Bus. (803) 734-3170 Home

* Thomas M. "Tom" Dantzler [R]

Veterinarian

Dist. No. 117 - Berkeley & Charleston Cos.

(H) 208 Middleton Dr., Goose Creek, 29445

Bus. Home (843) 797-8449

Bus. (803) 734-2949 Home

38.2k · April 15, 2005

Though I think letters have more impact, here are the e-mail addresses:

SC House E-Mail Addrs

For your letter to be effective, keep it short. Don't ramble. Your rep's staff won't bother with something long. You don't have to cover every angle and issue in your letter. Choose a few key points and touch briefly on each one. Finish with a quick summary. Two to four paragraphs should be all.

Edited April 15, 2005 by briansnat

April 15, 2005

For out-of-staters, we might consider writing to the South Carolina Tourism Department. Let them know how much you probably won't be spending in their state.

There's a web form at http://www.discoversouthcarolina.com/tools/contactus.asp

and US Mail at:

South Carolina Department of Parks, Recreation and Tourism

1205 Pendleton Street

Columbia, South Carolina 29201

USA

(803) 734-1700

-Matt

April 15, 2005

I really hate seeing lawmakers govern every aspect of our lives. Especially when laws are already on the books in most locations that take care of the situations they are bringing up. Trespassing, vandalism, etc all have laws written already, why do politicians feel that they need to make new laws that are redundant and with the sole purpose of singling out certain members of our society?

I do worry about the domino affect that this may create if passed. What if anything is geocaching.com doing to put a stop to this? What can i do to help??

3.9k · April 15, 2005

They become even more angry when an avowed goal, according to Logan, is to put a geocache in every S.C. cemetery.

HUH?!?!

Where did this come from?

X

Can anyone say "rules of evidence" ? Why stop there ? Isn't the avowed goal of geocachers in fact just to destroy the American way of life ?

2.6k · April 15, 2005

They become even more angry when an avowed goal, according to Logan, is to put a geocache in every S.C. cemetery.

HUH?!?!

Where did this come from?

X

Can anyone say "rules of evidence" ? Why stop there ? Isn't the avowed goal of geocachers in fact just to destroy the American way of life ?

More like the way of death. <_<

38.2k · April 15, 2005

They become even more angry when an avowed goal, according to Logan, is to put a geocache in every S.C. cemetery.

HUH?!?!

Where did this come from?

X

Can anyone say "rules of evidence" ? Why stop there ? Isn't the avowed goal of geocachers in fact just to destroy the American way of life ?

I think it comes from the log entry reproduced on Rep. Ceips' storyboard that said:

"If every cemetery had a geocache I'd be greatly pleased"

But as typical of editorials meant to inflame it left out the rest of the log, which continued:

...and cachers would get some significant education."

Edited April 15, 2005 by briansnat

April 15, 2005

FYI, the Director of Parks, Recreation and Tourism is Chad Prosser, and the Deputy Director is Charles Harrison. My letters to these two gentlemen are going out today.

teamkimble

Springfield, IL

April 15, 2005

This may be completely irrevelant, but it seems to me that punishing a whole community of people who on the whole are responsible citizens for crimes that were comitted just to lay blame isn't the right way to fix anything. Bad things happen in this world and appauling things happen in graveyards.

This is something I found on the drudge report. I read the story and thought how sad it is that these things happen, but because there are people in this world who don't have common decency why is that a reason to make area "off limits" for everyone.

I am not convinced that banning geocaching is going to solve the problems they see us as the cause of. As for what the right answer to this is I don't know, because as someone stated waaaay back it just takes more money than is available to "police" the areas and it's sad to say that is what it would take, but it's probably the truth of the matter.

Anyway, thought someone might like to see what real desecration in a graveyard was like. Thank God this didn't happen in South Carolina.

Stephanie (S of TandS)

4.8k · April 15, 2005

Unfortunately, there are people out there who do some terrible things to cemetaries. I seriously doubt they are cachers. Often vandalism is done by teenagers and robberies by adults who would be unlikely to own a GPS. The pictures and comments used at a previous hearing appear to have been presented out of context to convey the impression that cachers do such things. I find that rather offensive. I loathe things taken out of full context.

I just posted a bit ago in another thread about how I once found a kid's stash of porn in a cemetary when I was there to look for a cache. It had nothing to do with the cache and I turned it into the cemetary office, who thanked me. Adding restrictions on caches in the areas covered by the legislation is not just redundant in the sense that trespassing and vandalism laws already exist, but as I noted earlier it also acts to remove a large group of generally consciensious people from an area who would be likely to notice and report problems.

On the legal side of things, I wonder about various constitutional issues if a private property owner is unable to give permission for a cache. But if the bill passes that will be an issue for the courts. (Standard disclaimer: I am not providing legal advice and am only providing personal opinion).

There is a very nice cemetary cache near my home that is placed with the permission of the cemetary. It starts at a sundial and ends up at a park like area with wetlands behind the main cemetary area. It is an urban wetland that few know exist and the cemetary is quite proud of. I would guess that particular cemetary would be pretty annoyed if our state legislature suddenly told them that they can't have a geocache in their wetland area.

Edited April 16, 2005 by carleenp

April 15, 2005

This is something I found on the drudge report.

NOW THAT'S DISTURBING!

If only the Comittee members could see that we could be their graveyard police. Maybe we can stop things like this and lesser crimes from happening on state owned / historic properties.

X

April 16, 2005

They become even more angry when an avowed goal, according to Logan, is to put a geocache in every S.C. cemetery.

HUH?!?!

Where did this come from?

X

Can anyone say "rules of evidence" ? Why stop there ? Isn't the avowed goal of geocachers in fact just to destroy the American way of life ?

I thought our avowed goal was to destroy the Earth.

4.8k · April 16, 2005

First of all, let me start by stating that these forum messages are read by many people, not all of them Geocachers. Over the past ten days this fact has been indicated to me directly from a variety of people including State employed archeologists and State Representatives and their assistants.

I think this is likely correct considering the number of "State of South Carolina" ip addresses that have visted my profile page since I posted here. :lol:

So a post here is perhaps equivalent to a letter to the SC representatives or staff members.

April 17, 2005

hrm. i hope i'm not just missing something, but those logs way back on page two (from the poster board) are carp. if i've looked properly:

-Xangxa has never cached in SC.

-they oh, so conveniently left out the rest of the log from Crawfish Smith saying "My wife and I love history and cool graveyards. No! We are not freaks but most of the ones in our area are full of old and interesting people and gravesites." (and without putting ellipses in to indicate that the quote was not complete).

-they oh, so coveniently edited out any positive remarks from a203nitro's log - here is the log in it's entirety: "Well, we must have looked at every marker in the cemetery except the one we needed to look at. Loved the church and grounds. It was a great warm day. Took a rest room break and then walked right up the sweetest woman and the cache with no problem. I guess sometimes you have to clear your head and bladder. Left a Lexington County Sheriff Patch and took the Houston keychain." (btw, this cacher works in the sherriff's office). (i added italics to the parts they omitted) i have a problem with this little mangling of the log because if you want to read into it, they way they quote it almost implies that the cacher just decided to take a bathroom break right there in the middle of the cemetery.

- i am unable to find any caches that team desert rats has ever hit in SC and not able to find any log entry like that which was quoted.

-so Waterbaron refers to cemeteries as boneyards. i've got news for them, he'll still probably refer to them that way even if he's not caching or holding a gps. passing this bill won't change that.

i think it's bad form also that they are including at least one pic that, according to one poster who is a source of one picture, is not even taken in a cemetery or sensitive place. grr!

and it's already been said, but if the laws already on the books (trespassing and vandalism) can't be enforced, why start adding these on?

[edited for clarity]

Edited April 17, 2005 by vree13

38.2k · April 17, 2005

hrm. i hope i'm not just missing something, but those logs way back on page two (from the poster board) are carp. if i've looked properly:

-Xangxa has never cached in SC.

-they oh, so conveniently left out the rest of the log from Crawfish Smith saying "My wife and I love history and cool graveyards. No! We are not freaks but most of the ones in our area are full of old and interesting people and gravesites." (and without putting ellipses in to indicate that the quote was not complete).

-they oh, so coveniently edited out any positive remarks from a203nitro's log - here is the log in it's entirety: "Well, we must have looked at every marker in the cemetery except the one we needed to look at. Loved the church and grounds. It was a great warm day. Took a rest room break and then walked right up the sweetest woman and the cache with no problem. I guess sometimes you have to clear your head and bladder. Left a Lexington County Sheriff Patch and took the Houston keychain." (btw, this cacher works in the sherriff's office). (i added italics to the parts they omitted) i have a problem with this little mangling of the log because if you want to read into it, they way they quote it almost implies that the cacher just decided to take a bathroom break right there in the middle of the cemetery.

- i am unable to find any caches that team desert rats has ever hit in SC and not able to find any log entry like that which was quoted.

-so Waterbaron refers to cemeteries as boneyards. i've got news for them, he'll still probably refer to them that way even if he's not caching or holding a gps. passing this bill won't change that.

i think it's bad form also that they are including at least one pic that, according to one poster who is a source of one picture, is not even taken in a cemetery or sensitive place. grr!

and it's already been said, but if the laws already on the books (trespassing and vandalism) can't be enforced, why start adding these on?

[edited for clarity]

I can't imagine them doing something so dishonest. It must be a mistake.

4.8k · April 17, 2005

hrm. i hope i'm not just missing something, but those logs way back on page two (from the poster board) are carp. if i've looked properly:

-Xangxa has never cached in SC.

-they oh, so conveniently left out the rest of the log from Crawfish Smith saying "My wife and I love history and cool graveyards. No! We are not freaks but most of the ones in our area are full of old and interesting people and gravesites." (and without putting ellipses in to indicate that the quote was not complete).

-they oh, so coveniently edited out any positive remarks from a203nitro's log - here is the log in it's entirety: "Well, we must have looked at every marker in the cemetery except the one we needed to look at. Loved the church and grounds. It was a great warm day. Took a rest room break and then walked right up the sweetest woman and the cache with no problem. I guess sometimes you have to clear your head and bladder. Left a Lexington County Sheriff Patch and took the Houston keychain." (btw, this cacher works in the sherriff's office). (i added italics to the parts they omitted) i have a problem with this little mangling of the log because if you want to read into it, they way they quote it almost implies that the cacher just decided to take a bathroom break right there in the middle of the cemetery.

- i am unable to find any caches that team desert rats has ever hit in SC and not able to find any log entry like that which was quoted.

-so Waterbaron refers to cemeteries as boneyards. i've got news for them, he'll still probably refer to them that way even if he's not caching or holding a gps. passing this bill won't change that.

i think it's bad form also that they are including at least one pic that, according to one poster who is a source of one picture, is not even taken in a cemetery or sensitive place. grr!

and it's already been said, but if the laws already on the books (trespassing and vandalism) can't be enforced, why start adding these on?

[edited for clarity]

I can't imagine them doing something so dishonest. It must be a mistake.

Call me naive, but I always thought that only malcontents and forum trolls mangeled logs to skew things to make a point in a dishonest manner. I am greatly saddened to see a public official do that. I would hope that they would give the plain facts. Apparently they do not always do so. :laughing:

April 17, 2005

We are proud South Carolinians and I am currently serving my 32nd year in the South Carolina Army National Guard.

This issue is about common courtesy and good manners in visiting all cache sites, not just the ones in cemeteries.

The individuals who are up in arms concerning disrespect of the dead need to divert their attention to the disrespect of the living that occurs in front of their faces every day.

If noise could penetrate several feet of red clay and dead ears could discern noise after crossing the great divide, I would hope to hear the sounds of people enjoying life and visiting the area near my final earthly resting place, even during the hours of darkness.

Regardless of the outcome of this legislative event we need to take this opportunity to reinforce the use of the Golden Rule within the caching community.

TS, please let me know if I can assist with shining a positive light on geocaching in the great state of SC.

South Carolina Legislation Meeting

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