Now You're Getting Nasty

2.8k · June 28, 2004

This is such trivial drivel that all I've gotten from this thread is that some people don't have enough to do (not that I didn't know that already).

This entire discussion is no different then getting pulled over by a cop because of something suspicious, given a warning, and being let go. No harm done. And certainly not something that warrants the cop or his Chief of Police posting on the Internet why he stopped you and why he let you go.

Go caching folks. Read a book. Watch TV. Just walk away from the computer and stop thinking that you are Ralph Nader protecting the public from every entity on the planet.

3k · June 28, 2004

This entire discussion is no different then getting pulled over by a cop because of something suspicious, given a warning, and being let go. No harm done. And certainly not something that warrants the cop or his Chief of Police posting on the Internet why he stopped you and why he let you go.

I remember a news item from a couple years back where, late at night, a cop would pull over women he suspected of being drunk. He would give them the option of being taken in for drunk driving or stripping and walking home partially naked.

When one of the women spoke up, the situation caused a great deal of public outrage and a very public trial.

The preceding is an example of the abuse of power/authority and public trust. Being pulled over by a cop and given a warning is not.

2.8k · June 28, 2004

And I don't think in this case (this thread) anyone was made to walk home naked. Actually, I think the civilians in this case are trying to make the cop walk home naked!

38.2k · June 28, 2004

Sheesh, I'm glad I stayed out of this thread. There are going to be a lot of hard feelings between certain people long after this issue is forgotten. As far as my feelings on the original issue, I'll uncharacteristically refrain from mentioning them. People have covered the issue from every angle and there is nothing I can add.

I'm closing this thread before things get worse. Wait, where is my moderator option? I can't close this.

3k · June 28, 2004

And I don't think in this case (this thread) anyone was made to walk home naked.

The main issue of this thread has been the perceived abuse of power/authority (clearly, several of those that have posted to the thread would substitute the word "deliberate" for "perceived") by a site volunteer. This thread would have quickly fallen to oblivion if people viewed the action taken by the volunteer to have been: A. a normal part of his job or B. a simple, honest mistake.

That's why there would be no "public uproar" if any of us were pulled over by a cop under reasonable conditions and released with a warning. That cop was merely doing his job. Is that what happened here? Obviously, a number of people don't think so.

It is clear from the opening post of this thread and many of the less-incendiary responses that real harm has been done, regardless of the perspective one cares to examine it. Some will say the volunteer has been unfairly/unjustly maligned. Some will say the volunteer abused his position. Some will say the situation has engendered a feeling of distrust towards all of the site volunteers. Some will say the situation is merely indicative of much larger problems at the website. I suspect that there may be a grain of truth in most, if not all, of those viewpoints ... and that is why the situation needs to be addressed by the highest echelon of the Groundspeak staff.

Edited June 28, 2004 by BassoonPilot

June 28, 2004

Will you look at that? The sun DID come up today. I was really worried there for a second. :mad:

Count me as:

Curious
Patient
Respectful of TPTB
Thankful for TPTB
Glad the cache is unarchived.

3k · June 28, 2004

I'm a little disappointed your list didn't extend thanks to the real driving force behind the sport ... all those geocachers who go out and actually place caches for us to find. :mad:

1.8k · June 28, 2004

Well, if that's your opinion, then so be it. I must say, however, you couldn't be more wrong, and I resent you trying to tell me and others what my intent in the thread is. dry.gif There you have failed yourself and the community, and nothing you can say now should be respected by anyone. Once you cross the line from stating your opinions and beliefs to start telling me what my opinions and beliefs are, you have lost. So sad.

I had another quote picked out, claiming to know the heart of Co. Then I saw this one. Hey, give the other guy the same break YOU ask for. It's a wise man who can see into the heart of another. What was his intent.....? I'm gonna wait. I'm gonna go away for about a week and reclaim my life, so someone please email me if any real information becomes available. I had to read for an hour after one day away.

1.2k · June 28, 2004

I think there should be more of a feeling of community and helping out each other's caches. A good portion of us do. We replace pens, logs, swag, you name it--sometimes even the container.

Yup... there are caches out there which are completely neglected by their owners, but popular enough so that visiting cachers maintain the cache instead. It's irritating in my opinion, but it happens. Case in point: the "Grand Central Station" cache near the Los Angeles airport. The owner placed it, then basically abandoned it's maintenance from the get-go.

The page desperately needs updating with parking coords, for instance. The logs are full of pleas for parking coords (parking is flat-out impossible there unless you know the secret) and the owner does not seem to care. I provided much-needed pics and directions in my log, asked the owner to take advantage of it to post on the page and help other cachers, and no response.

On a lesser complaint, the write-up STILL says "whoops, forgot the pens!" (duh, there have been pens in the cache since maybe the 3rd cacher's visit). When it needed a new logbook, I put one in when I swung by, since it was not being maintained otherwise.

Seems the cache owner doesn't respond to emails either asking for maintenance, nor requests the cache logs.

I really hate caches when the owner just does not give a bleepin' rip to put in the care and maintenance of a cache, so the rest of us has to do it. However I don't think I can ask the admins to take away Grand Central Station from J-Man for this reason. That would be just too rude, and that particular cache is too valuable and active to archive. :mad:

Still, it begs a question related to this topic:

What is worse, a cacher which is too far away for maintenance of their cache, or one who is perfectly in the same town, and does not do much of anything to maintain their cache, so everyone else has to? What a conundrum... :huh:

Edited June 28, 2004 by Sparrowhawk

June 28, 2004

FWIW - If CO Admin is still in the mood to archive caches that haven't been maintained for a few weeks we have plenty of other ones in the NW that fit that category. If that truly were the reason it was archived we need a little consistency here.

Now that's a constructive approach. I'd be happy to contribute a few to the list!

Just log a Needs to be archived and claim you're invoking the 360 rule! :mad:

Edited June 28, 2004 by Stump

1.4k · June 28, 2004

Okay, I stepped away from this topic for 2 1/2 pages worth. I'm pretty disappointed to see the closest thing to an offical reply is a post from a forum leader saying we shouldn't expect a response from TPTB because this is an issue between 360 and CO. Well the archiving and unarchiving IS between them, but the apparent power abuse from an approver is an issue for the whole community. While it is true that the forums represent a small part of the community, it doesn't hold true that if people that didn't read the forums knew what happened they wouldn't be upset as well. Not knowing is different from not caring.

Lastly, if you're a leader of a community it is certainly within your power to decide when you do and do not want to address others, but sometimes doing only what you HAVE to do isn't the right choice.

5.7k · June 28, 2004

I'm sure that even if those who don't come into the forums had one of their caches archived out of what appeared to be a retalitory and unwarranted strike by an approver, they would care. If they don't care, then their passion for geocaching isn't high enough to be placing caches in the first place.

I think that most people who know me know that my passion for geocaching is high enough to be placing caches.

All I care about in this particular situation is that the problem, if there is one, is being addressed. I trust that it will be handled in a timely and fair manner. I have faith in the volunteers and TPTB. I don't need to know the outcome, or need to know any details. It's not because I don't care, but because I trust this group of people, who are good people, to work any problems out.

And for the people in my area: I hope you enjoy our latest caches. Joani and I have been enjoying yours. :huh: Hemlock, my appologies for making so much work for you... :mad:

--Marky

1.8k · June 28, 2004

All I care about in this particular situation is that the problem, if there is one, is being addressed. I trust that it will be handled in a timely and fair manner. I have faith in the volunteers and TPTB. I don't need to know the outcome, or need to know any details. It's not because I don't care, but because I trust this group of people, who are good people, to work any problems out.

Very well said, Marky. My thoughts exactly.

7.2k · June 28, 2004

Rightly or wrongly, one thing this has done is polarize many in the forums. That's for sure.

June 28, 2004

All I care about in this particular situation is that the problem, if there is one, is being addressed. I trust that it will be handled in a timely and fair manner. I have faith in the volunteers and TPTB. I don't need to know the outcome, or need to know any details. It's not because I don't care, but because I trust this group of people, who are good people, to work any problems out.

--Marky

Thanks Marky for putting my thoughts into words.

June 28, 2004

Simple. That was a statement of my opinion about the magazine, not a personal attack.

But unnecessary. You could have just said as the editor of an on-line magazine. But by criticizing the magazine as you did, it could very much be conceived as a personal attack.

You comment would have garnered more respect had you just called him an editor.

You are correct, and I apologize to the other staff of the magazine; Carleenp, Huntnlady, Sept1c_Tank, Criminal, just to name a few......please accept my apologies. I could have and should have phrased that differently.

Gained some respect for that one Sparks.

1.8k · June 28, 2004

Rightly or wrongly, one thing this has done is polarize many in the forums. That's for sure.

I'm not polarized ... I still respect people on both sides of the issue.

1.8k · June 28, 2004

Team 360:

Before I even placed this Plaque, I contacted Jeremy directly and asked for approval, which was given.

Pobre Rico:

Hey, Jeremy! Any explanation? I know you must be reading...

Norbu:

Has it occurred to anyone to be patient for a response, or comment from above?

Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking:

I would hope the PTB will address the community with some sort of response, whether it is only Jeremy or CO Admin, or both.

Spzzmoose:

What is your opinion Jeremy, Hydee and...most importantly, CO Admin? Curious minds want to know!

Dampeoples:

I'd really like to have Groundspeak weigh in on this

IV_Warrior:

Jeremy should weigh-in on the issue here as well

As if it's needed: bump.

7.2k · June 28, 2004

And since statements have been bumped...

By the way, if any of you do dish out any further personal attacks in this topic expect a warning from me. You might get a 24 hour cool down break from the forums as well.

Please keep up the good behavior.

June 28, 2004

When a cache submission is archived, the reviewers provide a written explanation to the cache owner. If you do not agree with that decision, you, as a community, have a few options. You may ask for a cache to be reviewed by additional reviewers, your local volunteer will post the cache to a private forum to allow other reviewers to comment. You may appeal the decision on the cache listing in the forums, and allow the community at large to comment. Or if you feel you were treated unfairly you may send me an email to approvers@Groundspeak.com, and I will look into it.

This issue as well as any other issue that is brought to my attention that involves Groundspeak or a site volunteer, during the time they are acting in a volunteer capacity, will be addressed directly with those parties involved. The concerns of those directly involved will be heard, the community concerns will be heard, the actions taken by the volunteer and the motives behind those actions will be weighed. Actions by Groundspeak will be taken based on that information. Those decisions are between Groundspeak, the community member/members directly involved and the volunteer team.

9.4k · June 28, 2004

When a cache submission is archived, the reviewers provide a written explanation to the cache owner. If you do not agree with that decision, you, as a community, have a few options. You may ask for a cache to be reviewed by additional reviewers, your local volunteer will post the cache to a private forum to allow other reviewers to comment. You may appeal the decision on the cache listing in the forums, and allow the community at large to comment. Or if you feel you were treated unfairly you may send me an email to approvers@Groundspeak.com, and I will look into it.

This issue as well as any other issue that is brought to my attention that involves Groundspeak or a site volunteer, during the time they are acting in a volunteer capacity, will be addressed directly with those parties involved. The concerns of those directly involved will be heard, the community concerns will be heard, the actions taken by the volunteer and the motives behind those actions will be weighed. Actions by Groundspeak will be taken based on that information. Those decisions are between Groundspeak, the community member/members directly involved and the volunteer team.

...and if Team360 or any other involved party wishes to share this information with the larger community, that is still ok?

1.4k · June 28, 2004

8.4k · June 28, 2004

Well, it's too late for me to weigh in here. Suffice it to say I'm disappointed that this even occurred. RK covered most of my thoughts on this. Briansnat covered the rest.

This whole mess is not image enhancing! Infer what you will.

Sn gans

Edited June 28, 2004 by Snoogans

June 28, 2004

That was a very professional response from the PR department as expected.

It hits the main priority: it placates and mollifies.

However, when I wrong someone--I apologize.

I know, I know, it's supposedly bad PR to admit to fallibility in corporate America.

I would hope that our community, geocachers AND volunteer geocache approvers AND staff of Groundspeak would hold themselves to a higher standard of integrity when dealing with ourselves and ask forgiveness/express regret.

Sure, private discussions take place first, but then the practice is to bring it to the community and the act was public.

If the results aren't public, that both indicates some level of deceit and an unwillingness to appear fallible.

I hope Groundspeak holds itself to a higher standard.

At the very least, I presume Team 360 will indicate they are satisfied with the outcome.

However, in my mind, the onus is truely on Groundspeak, Inc.

Thanks,

Randy

PS: There are no "sides"--there's either "us" or a rift.

PPS: Which leads me to this concept, either Groundspeak, Inc. is perceived as geocachers operating a wonderful tool for geocachers (ourselves), or it's perceived as a corporate entity using geocaching to generate income/revenue.

4k · June 28, 2004

When a cache submission is archived, the reviewers provide a written explanation to the cache owner. If you do not agree with that decision, you, as a community, have a few options. You may ask for a cache to be reviewed by additional reviewers, your local volunteer will post the cache to a private forum to allow other reviewers to comment. You may appeal the decision on the cache listing in the forums, and allow the community at large to comment. Or if you feel you were treated unfairly you may send me an email to approvers@Groundspeak.com, and I will look into it.

This issue as well as any other issue that is brought to my attention that involves Groundspeak or a site volunteer, during the time they are acting in a volunteer capacity, will be addressed directly with those parties involved. The concerns of those directly involved will be heard, the community concerns will be heard, the actions taken by the volunteer and the motives behind those actions will be weighed. Actions by Groundspeak will be taken based on that information. Those decisions are between Groundspeak, the community member/members directly involved and the volunteer team.

Not the response I wanted, but the response I expected.

One note: Since this cache is special as a landmark for the entire community, doesn't the decision pretty much affect the entire community? Yeah, it's been said that a cache is a cache, and they all must fit within the guidelines, but come on.....this is no ordinary cache! This is the grandaddy of all caches. The cache to start all caches. The one, the only. I will most likely never get to log this cache, I had nothing to do with it's implementation, and I wasn't even caching when it was placed, but it's special to me, and despite the reasons, I was affected when it was archived the other night. Sure, if it had been just another cache, I would have spoken out. Perhaps not as vehemently as I did, but still would have spoken out. I wouldn't have cried fowl and asked for an explanation, as I know that is between TPTB and the owner. However, this cache is a part of each and every one of us here, and that is why it had such an impact. My beliefs as to the cause and effect on this matter have not changed a bit, and that saddens me, because now I have lost some of the respect for the approvers as a result. If TPTB had come clean with an answer to the questions being asked, and they were exactly what I believed had happened, at least I would have the full respect in my mind and in my heart that I had 3 days ago. Now I don't have that. It will take a long time to regain that trust and respect, or it may never be regained. Disappointed? Yes. Surprised by the outcome and canned PR answer? Not in the least. Will I continue caching and hiding caches? Caching, yes. Hiding? Undecided now, as I'm not sure my caches will go to an approver that I know and trust to be fair and honest.

Thank you anyway, Hydee. Because of people like me, I don't envy your position in the least. So far you have been honest and fair when I've dealt with you in private, and hope you, at least, will continue that trend.

Edited June 28, 2004 by Sparky-Watts

2.3k · June 28, 2004

Good grief. I read the first page and the last page and a half, and I can't believe I wasted that much time.

Pouting, whining, etc, ad nauseum. I'd prefer yet ANOTHER forum suicide to another page of this! This is something that should've been handled via private messages or email, instead of flapping dirty laundry around the forum.

Just my 2¢.

8.4k · June 28, 2004

This is something that should've been handled via private messages or email, instead of flapping dirty laundry around the forum.

Just my 2¢.

Normally, I'd agree, but that particular cache is special to the ENTIRE community. This is one complaint thread that NEEDED to be posted.

1.8k · June 28, 2004

Not the response I wanted, but the response I expected.

One note: Since this cache is special as a landmark for the entire community, doesn't the decision pretty much affect the entire community? Yeah, it's been said that a cache is a cache, and they all must fit within the guidelines, but come on.....this is no ordinary cache! This is the grandaddy of all caches. The cache to start all caches. The one, the only. I will most likely never get to log this cache, I had nothing to do with it's implementation, and I wasn't even caching when it was placed, but it's special to me, and despite the reasons, I was affected when it was archived the other night. Sure, if it had been just another cache, I would have spoken out. Perhaps not as vehemently as I did, but still would have spoken out. I wouldn't have cried fowl and asked for an explanation, as I know that is between TPTB and the owner. However, this cache is a part of each and every one of us here, and that is why it had such an impact. My beliefs as to the cause and effect on this matter have not changed a bit, and that saddens me, because now I have lost some of the respect for the approvers as a result. If TPTB had come clean with an answer to the questions being asked, and they were exactly what I believed had happened, at least I would have the full respect in my mind and in my heart that I had 3 days ago. Now I don't have that. It will take a long time to regain that trust and respect, or it may never be regained. Disappointed? Yes. Surprised by the outcome and canned PR answer? Not in the least. Will I continue caching and hiding caches? Caching, yes. Hiding? Undecided now, as I'm not sure my caches will go to an approver that I know and trust to be fair and honest.

Thank you anyway, Hydee. Because of people like me, I don't envy your position in the least. So far you have been honest and fair when I've dealt with you in private, and hope you, at least, will continue that trend.

Because I don't know the true and honest facts, and haven't been privy to any discussions among the TPTB, I don't believe I can come to an informed opinion as to how this is being/has been handled. I will say that I have never had a negative interaction with Team360, CO Admin, or any of the GC.com staff.

However, I will add this: In my non-geocaching profession, I deal with investigating alleged noncompliance/violations of federal and state regulations. It is our institutional policy not to divulge ANY information or provide ANY commentary on an ongoing investigation, until all the facts have been received and our department has made a final decision. In response to inquiries, we simply refer people to our policy on investigating such allegations.

In that light, I would say that providing any further commentary than Hydee has already made is (at this point) unwise and (because Groundspeak IS a corporate entity) legally questionnable, at least until all sides have been heard and final decisions made. Making a rash judgment without fully considering all sides, issues, and ramifications to satisfy the cries of the masses is the worst thing Jeremy et al could do.

As a geocacher, I am anxious to see the outcome of this. But as a professional investigator and ethicist, I am equally willing to wait for a thoroughly considered verdict.

I have no plans to stop hiding or finding based on the decision. I have had nothing but outstanding personal experiences with the approvers in California and appreciate the hard work they do and the abuse they endure for the benefit of our enjoyment.

June 28, 2004

When a cache submission is archived, the reviewers provide a written explanation to the cache owner. If you do not agree with that decision, you, as a community, have a few options. You may ask for a cache to be reviewed by additional reviewers, your local volunteer will post the cache to a private forum to allow other reviewers to comment. You may appeal the decision on the cache listing in the forums, and allow the community at large to comment. Or if you feel you were treated unfairly you may send me an email to approvers@Groundspeak.com, and I will look into it.

This issue as well as any other issue that is brought to my attention that involves Groundspeak or a site volunteer, during the time they are acting in a volunteer capacity, will be addressed directly with those parties involved. The concerns of those directly involved will be heard, the community concerns will be heard, the actions taken by the volunteer and the motives behind those actions will be weighed. Actions by Groundspeak will be taken based on that information. Those decisions are between Groundspeak, the community member/members directly involved and the volunteer team.

THANK YOU Hydee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is exactly as it should be handled and I know many of us, even most of us, trust that it will be handled properly and we can continue caching and enjoying the friendships we have here.

And GPSSax IMHO NO 360 should not bring the results of the matter that is handled privately (as it should be) back into the forums. We have 2 topics and over 7 pages of alot of pure nastiness because the matter was brought prematurely to the forums when discussions that were being held privately were ongoing. I think that if 360 or anyone else besides the GC staff shares openly the matter that should be done privately, then we will have more pages of nastiness and more mess. I dont think that we, or the community, or the GC staff need anymore of that. They have enough work to do without having to act like babysitters and referees in the forums.

This is supposed to be a game/hobby for FUN and RELAXATION and ENJOYMENT. Lets keep it that way and lets lets leave the attitudes and meanness at home before you get to the keyboard.

And Sparky Watts, I wanted to also say thanks for your apology for a couple of the comments. I'll echo what another cacher said in that you have gained some of that respect back that was lost because of things said in the heat and passion of the moment.

MH

7.2k · June 28, 2004

...in other words, "TPTB can do no wrong and you keep your dagburn mouth shut! You hear me!"

June 28, 2004

Look, here's my two cents:

If you can't maintain it, get someone else to or remove the cache.

That's that. :-D

7.2k · June 28, 2004

One note: Since this cache is special as a landmark for the entire community, doesn't the decision pretty much affect the entire community? Yeah, it's been said that a cache is a cache, and they all must fit within the guidelines, but come on.....this is no ordinary cache! This is the grandaddy of all caches. The cache to start all caches. The one, the only. I will most likely never get to log this cache, I had nothing to do with it's implementation, and I wasn't even caching when it was placed, but it's special to me, and despite the reasons, I was affected when it was archived the other night.

Just a point of clarity here... this is not the "cache to start all caches". This is a plaque placed at the location of the very first hidden cache. Please understand that I am NOT saying that the cache is not an important one, but I am only clarifying that it was not the first cache ever hidden. The first cache ever hidden has been archived for quite some time.

In that light, I would say that providing any further commentary than Hydee has already made is (at this point) unwise and (because Groundspeak IS a corporate entity) legally questionnable, at least until all sides have been heard and final decisions made. Making a rash judgment without fully considering all sides, issues, and ramifications to satisfy the cries of the masses is the worst thing Jeremy et al could do.

That is very true. That is why I said you should not hold your breath waiting for a comment from the upper level site admins. I don't think it is possible to rush to a resolution so you will pass out before the issue is resolved. This is going to take some time. If they want to comment on the issue, then so be it. If Team 360 wants to comment, then so be it. I imagined any answers would come in due time and not at 9:01 AM PDT this morning.

38.2k · June 28, 2004

...in other words, "TPTB can do no wrong and you keep your dagburn mouth shut! You hear me!"

I think what they are saying is that whatever happens is between CO Admin, Team 360 and Groundspeak and its nobody else's beeswax.

7.2k · June 28, 2004

...in other words, "TPTB can do no wrong and you keep your dagburn mouth shut! You hear me!"

I think what they are saying is that whatever happens is between CO Admin, Team 360 and Groundspeak and its nobody else's beeswax.

I understand what he means. I don't agree with what he means. I was making a satirical comment.

What goes on between the providers and the users is our business when it represents what could happen to any one of us. While not nearly on the same level, hushing up this episode is similar to moving clergy around when complaints are leveled.

I do agree with an above post mentioning in will take time. Though, sometimes "giving them time" is the same has "hoping it will blow over and be forgotten."

Makes you wonder what the private moderator's forum looks like right about now.

June 28, 2004

The cache belongs to 360, if he is OK with the outcome of whatever is worked out then that is fine by me.

For many people some real damage has been done. Both by the actions of CO Admin and by this discussion that followed it. That damage occured to both the trust that we all place in gc.com and also to some individuals that participated in the back and forth of this discussion.

Should there some kind of public announcement of what happened and if there was a problem what will be done to make sure it does not happen again? Because of the nature of this cache I think so. But to be honest, it would not be right for any cache if in fact this happened out of spite. If there was wrong doing should there be a public appology? That may go a long way in mending some fences. But as we have been told earlier I will not hold my breath. But I think the damage has been done and many here will take a long time trying to rebuild relationships and that is true of the regular folks that use this site and TPTB both official and volunteer it is a knife that cuts both ways.

Earlier someone said the gc.com does not answer to us. Well then who do they answer to? At this point in time they need us and we need them -- we are both necessary evils. I think it will be a long road back but if everybody breathes and is willing to face up and tell the story straight and let the chips fall where they may then maybe we all can at least get on the road.

Am I still angry that this happened? YES! Do I want resolution to this? Yes again. What do I think that resolution should be? Don't know until I hear the whole story. I would hope this would be how people on both sides of this issue feel. But left with a void I have to fill in the blanks myself. I don't see a problem with Team360 and TPTB coming to some point of putting out a joint statement. It will stop all of the rumors and give everyone the chance to know that they for sure have all of the facts. Just because this will be resolved in some way does not mean that people will forget it. And again if there is a void then people will fill in the blanks how they see fit. Some have suggested that this should never have even been on the forums. Sorry I can't agree with that. This is a community that talks to each other. I think this playing out in the forums is better than people getting this story third or fourth hand.

But in the end if Team360 says he is OK with the end result then I am OK with it. Although I think the bigger issue concerns all of us, I think this is his problem and he gets the chance to work it out. I fully suspect that he will and will do so with an eye for what is best for the geocaching community as a whole.

3.1k · June 28, 2004

People...

This is a matter that most likely should have been dealt with in email. I would imagine that the resolution of the matter will be dealt with that way. Those of you that have called for Jeremy and CO Admin to post should not hold your breath. I feel certain that Team 360 will be contacted by the site administrators regarding resolving the issue. If a comment regarding the issue comes from the upper level admins, then so be it.

If the personal attacks don't stop I'm going to close this topic temporarily. If Team 360 wants to post again then I would re-open it. Keep the discussion rational people.

You can handle it anyway you chose but what you're missing is that this abuse of power affects us all. Each of us is affected.

A Colorado admin archived a Oregon cache is what happened. A cache that had the missing logbook replaced 4 days earlier.

It was archived because of vindictiveness, no other reason and that's obvious to everyone. This isn't a personal attack on all admins, just one that abused his authority.

8.4k · June 28, 2004

Makes you wonder what the private moderator's forum looks like right about now.

Yeah. I bet they have pet nicknames for all the troublemakers, whiners, and suck-ups. I work security and that's what we do to the regulars behind their backs. (Don't even ask about the guy we call "Harry and the Hendersons.") Security is just another term for adult baby-sitting. Forum moderation (especially here) isn't many shades off of that.

Hmmmm, I'd like to know if I have a nickname in that forum???

Edited June 28, 2004 by Snoogans

7.2k · June 28, 2004

I was making a satirical comment.

And I have asked everyone *specifically* NOT to do that.

I want the discussion to remain civil. I'm not going to warn you on your meter because your post was not really over the line. It was right on it though.

There has been enough angst (and sarcasm) in this topic. While the issue is being resolved we can try to heal as a community. I love seeing the post where some of you are doing that in this topic. My hat is off to those of you that are trying to "be the better man" at this point.

7.2k · June 28, 2004

You can handle it anyway you chose but what you're missing is that this abuse of power affects us all. Each of us is affected.

No LB&MM, I do get it. That is why I do not want to close the topic. I disagree with those who have called for it to be closed. That is why I stepped in so vigourously.

My only purpose is to keep the discussion civil. I want to voice no opinion in the matter since I am moderating the topic. I am moderating in an even handed manner, and you can tell that from MOCKBA's post after his slap.

Feel free to continue the discussion by all means. I think it will help the healing process. Just remember that we are all human beings and fellow cachers.

7.2k · June 28, 2004

I was making a satirical comment.

And I have asked everyone *specifically* NOT to do that.

Opps! Sorry!

Still, it irks me when someone comes in trying to stop dialog when we all are here to have dialog. While many have mentioned TPTB deafening silence, I have no doubts more than one moderator has had an eye on this thread all long. No need for anyone to self-appoint themselves as guardian--it just adds static.

3.1k · June 28, 2004

I will remain civil throughout mtn-man. Thanks for your concerns.

4k · June 28, 2004

Just a point of clarity here... this is not the "cache to start all caches". This is a plaque placed at the location of the very first hidden cache. Please understand that I am NOT saying that the cache is not an important one, but I am only clarifying that it was not the first cache ever hidden. The first cache ever hidden has been archived for quite some time.

Just for more clarimaficationism.....I'm well aware that this is not the first cache......I know it's a plaque honoring the first cache. And the fact that it's a plaque honoring the first cache is just as important. It's the idea of that cache, it's purpose. In my opinion, it's every bit as important because it's a memorial to that piece of history. Just as JFK's gravestone isn't actually JFK, people still visit that spot with reverance. It's neither the place he was born, nor the place he died, but a memorial to the man, as this plaque is a memorial to the original cache.

7.2k · June 28, 2004

Hmmmm, I'd like to know if I have a nickname in that forum???

I'm sure most of us do.

What an embarassment it would be if someone hacked the private forum and posted all of the juicy gossip. I'm not sure I'd want to know.

7.2k · June 28, 2004

I was making a satirical comment.

And I have asked everyone *specifically* NOT to do that.

Opps! Sorry!

Still, it irks me when someone comes in trying to stop dialog when we all are here to have dialog. While many have mentioned TPTB deafening silence, I have no doubts more than one moderator has had an eye on this thread all long. No need for anyone to self-appoint themselves as guardian--it just adds static.

I have not stopped dialog -- I am stopping people from insulting each other. I would hope you would know the difference. People can have a rational discussion without insulting each other.

FYI... once one moderator steps into a topic we usually allow that moderator to mod the topic from that point on unless it goes out of control.

Sparky, I understand your feelings totally. It is a feeling shared by many as has been demonstrated in this topic.

And LB&MM, you have indeed. Thanks.

Edited June 28, 2004 by mtn-man

38.2k · June 28, 2004

Should there some kind of public announcement of what happened and if there was a problem what will be done to make sure it does not happen again? Because of the nature of this cache I think so. But to be honest, it would not be right for any cache if in fact this happened out of spite. If there was wrong doing should there be a public appology? That may go a long way in mending some fences. But as we have been told earlier I will not hold my breath. But I think the damage has been done and many here will take a long time trying to rebuild relationships and that is true of the regular folks that use this site and TPTB both official and volunteer it is a knife that cuts both ways.

Although Co Admins actions here were directed at Team 360, its obvious there was a ripple effect through the entire geocaching community. People realize that it could have been their cache under similar circumstances. This being said, I still don't think it's anybody else's business as to how TBTB are handling this. Hopefully TBTB will try to make sure something like this doesn't happen again and I bet they are. If that means they are putting CO Admin in stocks, hanging him, slapping his hands with a ruler, or just saying "Bad, bad boy", that's still an internal matter. They don't owe the users here a public announcement of what steps they've taken.

It's just like when someone "does a bad" at work. The offender is usually called into HR and given a talking to, warned, fired, or whatever is deemed appropriate, but there is never a public prounoucement. Similarly, GC.COM has no obligation to announce anything with regards to this matter, other than the fact that they are aware of it (and Hydee's post proves that they are).

If CO Admin thinks an apology is in order, it should be directed to Team 360 and if he feels a wider "mea culpa" is warranted then he could address it to the entire geocaching community, but he really is under no obligation to do so. For those of you who want to see his head hoisted on a pole, shame on you. Everyone makes mistakes and has occasional lapses in judgement.

As far as the incident's effect on the wider community, what we need to do is watch for similar incidents. Hopefully we won't see any more. If we do, then we'll each have to make a personal decision as to whether or not we should reconsider our association with this website.

dadgum, there I go. I knew I couldn't stay out of this one forever .

Edited June 28, 2004 by briansnat

3.1k · June 28, 2004

As far as I'm concerned I don't need to know details. If there is an apology or canning or whatever, it really isn't my business.

The cache was legal. The actions taken against the cache and cacher weren't. That's my only concern. I'm certain there are lots of conversations going on behind the scenes and that's a good thing. Let's hope this turns out to be a postive thing.

6.4k · June 28, 2004

While many have mentioned TPTB deafening silence, I have no doubts more than one moderator has had an eye on this thread all long.

Just in case most missed this post in another thread, apparently part of that "deafening silence" seems to be because TPTB were on a much-needed vacation until a few hrs ago.

June 28, 2004

You can handle it anyway you chose but what you're missing is that this abuse of power affects us all. Each of us is affected.

No LB&MM, I do get it. That is why I do not want to close the topic. I disagree with those who have called for it to be closed. That is why I stepped in so vigourously.

My only purpose is to keep the discussion civil. I want to voice no opinion in the matter since I am moderating the topic. I am moderating in an even handed manner, and you can tell that from MOCKBA's post after his slap.

Feel free to continue the discussion by all means. I think it will help the healing process. Just remember that we are all human beings and fellow cachers.

<----- goes over and hands Mtn Man and Mrs Mtn man, a case of Ice cold pepsi, and whatever else they would prefer. Thanks for the even balance, and fair guiding hand. Its very appreciated.

Also, to the cacher (I'll refer to them only as John/Jane doe) that I have spoke with that has given themselves a self imposed ban from the forums, (yes they did it on their own nobody else suggested it) for some of the comments made in the heat and passion of the moment, you have also earned some of the respect back that was lost during the posts in this thread. Thanks for stepping back, seeing some mistakes you made (regardless of others wrong actions or comments or percieved wrong actions or comments) and taking action for yourself. I hope to see inputs from you and listen to your viewpoints on things in the future. (and people dont even think of asking me for the name. You wont get it period so dont waste your time trying.)

I hope to see more things like Sparky's post, "John/jane doe's" and others as they see mistakes they made and reactions in the heat of the moment and saying or doing things they shouldnt have. Not only does this help restore some of the respect that was lost. MOST importantly it adds tremendously to the healing process that needs to, and is already taking place. Sometimes its hard to step up and say I was out of line, or I was wrong, I apologize and please forgive me for this or that. But in doing so, it helps the community heal and grow more than we may ever know. My hats off to those that are taking steps to help this and taking responsibility for their actions.

MH

7.2k · June 28, 2004

I have not stopped dialog

No, no, I'm not talking about you! You're doing a fine job! (Besides chastising me in public. , but I'm a man and I can take it.)

I'm talking about some people who takes it upon themselves to blindly wave the flag of one side, who won't hear of any dissent, and doesn't want any dissent to be voiced. A good example is the post directly above the one I got nailed for.

38.2k · June 28, 2004

Just in case most missed this post in another thread, apparently part of that "deafening silence" seems to be because TPTB were on a much-needed vacation until a few hrs ago.

He's gonna wish he didn't come back .

Now You're Getting Nasty

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment