Dnf Question

1.1k · June 23, 2004

Greetings,

Just wondered what, if anything, you do when you go search for a cache, can't find it, log a DNF and then the cache owner confirms it is MIA and replaces the cache. Is my DNF a valid DNF if the cache wasn't there to be found?

Can my <_< become a :lol: because I tried to find something that wasn't there?

Personally I don't really care if the DNF stays or not, I'm just curious to know how others have handled this situation in the past.

Zack

3k · June 23, 2004

Is my DNF a valid DNF if the cache wasn't there to be found?

Obviously, the DNF is valid, and appropriate, when someone fails to find a cache that wasn't there.

In such a situation, a "find" is invalid.

Edited June 23, 2004 by BassoonPilot

June 23, 2004

DNFs are to let cache owners know that the cache may have a problem not that you are inadequate at finding tupperware . If the owner just glances at the logs and sees a happy faces they may not realize there is a problem til later. After its placed go back look for it. find it and then edit your DNF to a Find. (Do not delete the old DNF just add to the log that you went back to find it on date such n such and that you found it.

Edited June 23, 2004 by Dream Alchemist

38.2k · June 23, 2004

Is my DNF a valid DNF if the cache wasn't there to be found?

Yes. When you head out to find a cache, two things can happen. You can find it, or not find it. The "Found It" option is there for the former and the DNF is there to cover the latter. The reason doesn't matter.

I don't understand why anybody would want a <_< when they didn't find the cache. I always thought a :lol: means "Found it". Not found the spot where it might have been, or found the spot where it was.

Anyway, even if you go back and find it, your DNF should stay. Its part of the history of the cache.

Edited June 23, 2004 by briansnat

1.1k · June 23, 2004

I agree in principle with everything posted on this thread so far. However, here's an addendum:

The CACHE OWNER can exercise discretion in allowing a Find. This has happened to me on a couple of occasions. I travel and cache very frequently, and on a couple of my No Find logs, the cache owner has verified that the cache had indeed gone missing, replaced it during his/her maintenance visit, and then Emailed me and told me to go ahead and take a Find (since it was obvious I had made the effort, and as a traveler would likely not be back in the area anytime soon).

However, let me be clear: It was AFTER I had already logged a No Find, and it was AFTER the cache owner had gone in behind me and done his/her thing as described above, and it was AFTER the hider VOLUNTEERED to let me have the Find.

Some of the frustration we've seen on this and other threads has to do with searchers TAKING the Find pre-emptively. Now THAT is not right/fair.

-Dave R. in Biloxi

3.9k · June 23, 2004

For the most part a DNF is a DNF. However there maybe certain situations where the cache owner would allow a find. If the cache is still active and you are the first and only one to report the cache is missing; and you can confirm with the cache owner that you were looking in the precise, correct location; and the cache owner give you their blessing, then you could log a Find. At least if I was the cache owner, I would and in one case did, grant a find in that situation.

June 23, 2004

Yes. When you head out to find a cache, two things can happen. You can find it, or not find it. The "Found It" option is there for the former and the DNF is there to cover the latter.

Hmmm. I always wondered how that worked!

June 23, 2004

As I have said before the only “rule” geocaching.com provides for found it logs is that both the hider and hunter agree it is a find. If the hider doesn’t consider the log is a valid find they can delete the log. If the hunter doesn’t consider it a find, they can log a note a DNF, or nothing.

So if the hunter and hider agreee that a "Found it" log is ok, then it counts as a find for them. For me, if I don't find and open the geocache, I don't count it as a find. It doesn't matter if it is my fault, (example it was there but I didn't get ahold of it), the hider's fault (example the coords were a mile off because he entered the numbers wrong), someone elses fault (example a mundane took the geocache). But I don't care what others consider a find.

2.1k · June 23, 2004

Can my become a because I tried to find something that wasn't there?

I quickly scanned the responses here and my position on this has likely been covered but here is my vote.

Any time you go to a site and don't find the container, or scraps of the container the visit should be logged as a DNF. It is important to let the owner and future attempters know of the site conditions. I would not like it if people logged our caches as finds if they didn't see the container.

However... In some instances where I felt someone made a valiant and unique effort or I otherwise felt they qualified for a find I have emailed them to change their DNF to a find. :lol:

In retrospect, with our 99 caches placed, some in place for 2.5 years, I can recall only a very few find logs that I considered unqualified.

June 23, 2004

Go back and find the cache now that it's been replaced and then update your log. A couple of my finds took three tries to find. I keep the whole history on my log leading to the eventual find.

April 22 by LETaylor (18 found)

Finally found it and then felt very very stupid. I'll mark this one up to being fairly new to this.

4/21: Third visit - So, now I don't have any eyes. . . and still haven't figured it out. Brought a friend with me to help find it. No luck. Arrrgh!

4/20: 2nd visit: Spent way too much time here after work today. Think I'll gouge out my eyes and try again soon as a blind man.

4/20: 1st Visit: I'll have to make a second journey to catch this one. - sigh

Putt's Button Cache

Edited June 23, 2004 by LETaylor

2.3k · June 23, 2004

Simple test to determine a DNF

-------------------------------------

1. Did you find the cache? Y or N

- If No ---> Its a DNF

The only exception to this rule is posting an IBB (I'll be back).

June 23, 2004

You can also edit a DNF to a note or a NA, depending on your preference, once it is confirmed that you were, in fact, hunting for an MIA cache--always being respectful of the history of the cache, and mindful of the cache owner's wishes.

Edited June 23, 2004 by prettynwitty

June 23, 2004

We could argue this until we all drop dead. I still think it's pretty danged hard to find something that is not there to begin with.

For me:

Found it = FOUND IT

Cache missing = Write a Note

Cache there but I didn't find it = DNF

If I write a note saying that the cache is possibly missing and someone comes behind me with a FOUND IT or the cache owner confirms it's still there, I will change my note to a DNF. I will go back out and find it later and post another log. If I don't go back after it, my DNF stands.

I just can't log a DNF on something that is not there to begin with, and until it's confirmed that the cache was indeed there and I didn't find it, I won't log a DNF. I log notes instead if I believe the cache is missing. It's just not fair to spend an hour looking for something that is not there and have to log a DNF for it.

I'm sorry that notes don't show up on PQ's for those that use them. Even if they did, I would still be checking the logs before I go. Those that go after a cache blindly by not using clues or logs, probably spend more time looking for a cache that isn't there than I do. I like to go completely prepared. I'd rather spend more time checking out the location and wondering why the cache owner brought me to that location than spending most of my time looking for a cache that isn't there. So I check the logs before I go, no matter what.

Not everyone agrees with me on this. But this game gives so much leeway in how things are done that until it becomes a rule that you have to do it one way or the other, this is how I am going to do it.

June 23, 2004

I think I handle them the same way PandyBat does. I usually just post notes saying I'll try again. And then I keep trying until I find it. I've got one DNF, which just frustrated me enough to make me quit. Of course it's been a while now, the coordinates have been adjusted... and I'll be searching for it again soon. Will probably leave my DNF on the log since it was the first log entered for that cache.

5.6k · June 23, 2004

(tongue firmly in cheek)

But isn't not finding something that's not there a success? And would that rate a :lol: ?

7.2k · June 23, 2004

[500 word rant deleted]

If you looked and didn't find it, it's a DNF. It stays a DNF forever and ever, amen. No matter the reason. Even if the owner says you can take the find.

You Didn't Find It means you log a DNF and nothing else. No excuses are acceptable, IMNSHO.

[EDIT: spelling goof.]

Edited June 23, 2004 by CoyoteRed

38.2k · June 23, 2004

For the most part a DNF is a DNF. However there maybe certain situations where the cache owner would allow a find. If the cache is still active and you are the first and only one to report the cache is missing; and you can confirm with the cache owner that you were looking in the precise, correct location; and the cache owner give you their blessing, then you could log a Find. At least if I was the cache owner, I would and in one case did, grant a find in that situation.

I don't understand this logic. The point is to find caches, not where they were. I wouldn't remotely consider asking for credit for a find in this situation (and I've been in it) and would never allow a found it log to remain on my cache page if I knew the person didn't find it.

This is the way I do it. I set out to find a cache and if I find the cache I log a "found it". If I don't I log a "DNF". I really don't understand the nuances and grey areas that others use to log their finds. Is the smiley all that freakin' important to some people that they have to stretch the definition of a find?

Edited June 23, 2004 by briansnat

June 23, 2004

To each his own, I guess. :lol:

2.3k · June 23, 2004

[500 word rant deleted]

If you looked and didn't find it, it's a DNF. It stays a DNF forever and ever, amen. No matter the reason. Even if the owner says you can take the find.

You Din't Find It means you log a DNF and nothing else. No excuses are acceptable, IMNSHO.

Can you clarify that a bit better for me? :lol:

June 23, 2004

If you found it, you found it.

If you didn't find it, you didn't find it.

If it was missing, you never had a chance to find it or not find it in the first place.

7.2k · June 23, 2004

PandyBat, you're really reaching there.

If there was an unsuccessful search, if you looked for and failed to find the cache, it doesn't matter if it was there or not. You didn't find the cache!

You could extend your logic to it being a find if your going to find it. Afterall, it's there to be found, right?

June 23, 2004

A DNF doesn't count against you so what does it matter if I post a DNF explaining that the cache is possibly missing or a note stating the same thing? Some people don't log DNFs or any type of log until they find it no matter how many times they go after a cache. At least I post a note. My notes are like a journal of my search for the cache. If I posted a DNF everytime, it would be misleading other cachers into thinking that the cache wasn't there and it could influence their decision in attempting it. Especially those using GSAK, PQ's or don't read logs before they go. If I did write a Note saying that I believed the cache was missing, and someone came behind me and logged that it was still there, then I would change my previous Note to a DNF. I won't cheat on DNF if in fact the cache really was there and I didn't find it.

Like I said, because there is so much leeway given by GC's setup and cache owners that don't maintain log entries, a person can define a find anyway they desire.

DNFs and Note logs are nothing compared to FOUND IT logs. I would never cheat on a FOUND IT log by posting anything other than I signed the logbook. Since everything else is irrelevant because it doesn't count against your stats, what does it matter whether its a DNF or a Note?

Edited June 23, 2004 by PandyBat

7.2k · June 23, 2004

...what does it matter whether its a DNF or a Note?

Because it is lying.

Look, a DNF does not mean it is missing. It has nothing to do with the condition of the cache. A DNF is a log type of your actions on a hunt for that particular cache.

In fact, a cache in poor or trashed condition is, in fact, a find and then possibly an SBA. Quite frankly, a DNF in and of itself is no use to anyone in regards to condition of the cache because you don't know the condition of the cache. If folks think of it that way, it might be because of people to who only log notes when they don't find a cache.

You can't tell from just from a person's DNF the condition of a cache even if they are experienced! We've posted at least 9 DNFs in the past month alone. We have over 500 finds. At least one of those caches has been found after us several times.

So why post a DNF instead of a note, then? Because you've actively looked and couldn't find it. This means there could be a problem with the cache. Not that there is a problem with the cache. By posting a note when there may be a problem is just as ilconceived as your assertion that a DNF will scare away potential finders.

Like I said, because there is so much leeway given by GC's setup and cache owners that don't maintain log entries, a person can define a find anyway they desire.

If there isn't a set way to do things then no one is on the same page and it all means nothing. How am I supposed to know what your DNF means if everyone else is doing something different? I can't unless I read the log and then log type is useless--might as well not have them.

24.7k · June 23, 2004

You know, I have found the nothing there was to find before and gotten a find out of it. I've also gotten a DNF out of the same situation. It depends on the owners take on the situation.

Until there is the definitive guide to tournament geocaching, it's a gray area.

Edited June 23, 2004 by Renegade Knight

3.8k · June 23, 2004

Yes. When you head out to find a cache, two things can happen. You can find it, or not find it.

Dan Quayle was thinking the same thing when he said, "If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure." :blink:

In my opinion, Brian's opinion is correct:

...Anyway, even if you go back and find it, your DNF should stay. Its part of the history of the cache.

You wouldn't want to make Mr. Quayle a liar, would you? :lol:

June 23, 2004

If you don't log your DNF's, you could wind up making things tough for people who do PQ'S and geocache on the go... not everyone has time or ability to read logs on the go--especially people with really slow internet connections, or people far from home, without a PDA. So, if someone logs a false find, or a note, rather than a DNF, people will assume the MIA cache is there and go for it, under these circumstances, and spend a lot of frustrating time looking.

Why not log a DNF, and then edit it to a note or a SBA when the the cache indeed is confirmed missing? That way, you don't risk the chance of messing with someone's valuable time, you don't disrespect the history of the cache, and you let the cache owner and other cachers know promptly that something might be really wrong.

June 23, 2004

It's partly a matter of communication, partly consideration.

First, a "Find" is verifiable via a signed logbook or other evidence validated by finder.

If a cache has been muggled, and I've detected/described the appropriate spot to the hiders satisfaction, I log the DNF to let them know, and when they've verified it's gone and suggest I edit my log to a find, I will. The log explains/documents the situation.

I have suggested the same to those who've found any cache of mine muggled. One experienced cacher took it, a newbie didn't feel they wanted to but did after I replaced it.

As a finder, I choose to log DNF's. As a hider, I suggest the seekers log finds since they would have signed the log were it available.

Enjoy either way,

Randy

2k · June 23, 2004

I would never allow a find to stay on one of my caches if a cacher didn't find the cache. I don't care if they were in the exact spot where a cache got muggled.

I would never claim a find on a cache, even if I knew I was in the exact spot where it went missing.

I must be missing something.

2k · June 23, 2004

Is my DNF a valid DNF if the cache wasn't there to be found?

Yes. When you head out to find a cache, two things can happen. You can find it, or not find it. The "Found It" option is there for the former and the DNF is there to cover the latter. The reason doesn't matter.

I don't understand why anybody would want a when they didn't find the cache. I always thought a means "Found it". Not found the spot where it might have been, or found the spot where it was.

Anyway, even if you go back and find it, your DNF should stay. Its part of the history of the cache.

There is a cache I looked for on serveral occasions. It is hidden in a great place to sit and eat lunch and read a book. Which is half the rerason it took serveral tries, I would eat and read before searching and loose track of time.

Any way to the point, are you saying that I should have posted a DNF for every visit? I post one after the first visit, I actually looked around that time, after seeing found it logs after my DNF I didn't log again until I found it. This was not an Ego thing I just didn't want to clutter the on line log and owners box with a stream of DNF's.;

1.4k · June 23, 2004

Greetings,

Just wondered what, if anything, you do when you go search for a cache, can't find it, log a DNF

<<SNIP>>

Yes.

June 23, 2004

Yeah, like, take a look at this:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...2a-613bf680eba5

This was appearing as recently found on the PQ's for two weeks, which means that, if you're unable to read the logs, you'd happily go there and waste an hour of your time, digging through weeds at a site that had been completely bulldozed

(by the way, my SBA was a DNF for about a month).

7.2k · June 23, 2004

Found it gone....

Funny.

June 23, 2004

If you found it, you found it.
If you didn't find it, you didn't find it.

If it was missing, you never had a chance to find it or not find it in the first place.

If you found it, you found it.

If you didn't find it, you didn't find it.

If it was missing, you never had a chance to find it or not find it in the first place. Which means you STILL didn't find it.

1k · June 23, 2004

If I reach GZ and look for the cache without success, I'll be sure to log a DNF. If I hit the trail and have to abandon my hike for whatever reason, I'll post a note. I have no problem posting DNF's, but if I have not physically reached GZ, why post a DNF? How do I know if it is/was there or not?

I will be back eventually, and when I return I will always leave my Notes/DNF's as I do believe they are a part of the cache history.

Kar of TS!!

June 23, 2004

...what does it matter whether its a DNF or a Note?

Because it is lying.

I beg to differ.

A DNF means something differently to me than it does to you. A DNF (to me) means the cache owner stumped me with a hide and I couldn't find it. Depends mainly on if they hide a micro in the forest or maybe it was a very good hide in an obvious place that I didn't check. A DNF does not mean (to me) that I couldn't find it because of muggles, high water, animals or whatever else happens to caches. Either way, whether I post a DNF or a Note, you are going to know what is going on with that cache and why I posted like I did if you read the logs.

Go read my logs. You'll see that I have posted DNF's on caches that were there but I did not find them. I was stumped by the cache hider for whatever reason. Those caches I will not be going back to find. A DNF is a finality to the cache adventure to me.

Notes on other caches I have attempted are mainly just confirmations of notes or DNF's left by previous cachers saying that the cache was missing. I am not doing anything wrong by anybody logging caches the way I do...except when I post a DNF on a cache that is actually there. Then that screws up the PQs for everybody else.

You're right. We aren't all on the same page. That's not surprising to me after reading hundreds of logs and seeing how everyone posts logs differently. I've seen the same cacher post two FOUND IT logs on the same cache. But the cache owners aren't doing anything about it, so those people think it's ok to do it that way. I've also seen a different person post 5 logs from 5 different trips to a cache saying they couldn't find it. Now to a person that scans the logs without reading them or uses PQ's, that would indicate that 5 different people couldn't find a cache and they will think that it's not there and not attempt it, when in fact, it was only one person that couldn't find the cache. Yes, maybe we should at least minimize the options down to a FOUND IT, a DNF and nothing else but the SBA option. That way people can't log anything else other than whether they found it or not. But then, not many people would log at all if that's the only options they had. Because no matter whether a DNF counts against your stats or not, people still do not like to admit defeat and will not log them. Me included. I will keep looking for a cache until I find it or until the cache owner says it's missing or until I've looked all over and give up. If I give up or the cache gets archived, I will post a DNF.

There's a difference, albeit small, between "Can Not Find" and "Did Not Find". Maybe we should have a CNF (Can Not Find) option instead of the Note option. Problem solved! LOL (I am being a smart a**...I'm not that nitpicky.)

7.2k · June 24, 2004

I fail to see how it messes up the PQ by posting a DNF.

First off, with your reasoning no one would post a DNF on a missing cache until the owner or a previous finder confirms the cache is missing. ...or you just give up. You'd just have strings of notes instead of DNFs and nothing jumping out at you saying the cache maybe missing unless you read the logs.

Look, a lot of folks don't want to read the logs. They can contain spoilers. It's the same as not looking at the hint until you need it. Spoilers defeat the hunt the owner intended. You go by what the owner wants you to go by until it no longer helpful and then you start looking at logs. After that, you look at hints. While not everyone likes the challenge, I'd say most of us real enthusiasts do. (Trying to discount those who are not fully engaged in the hobby.)

Quite frankly, I'd be very upset if I went on a hunt and the PQ only had notes, and after failing to find the cache I read these notes to discover the cache may be missing. Everyone who had done that just wasted my time. If I'm out of town, I don't want to be going after caches that may be missing, I want to enjoy myself. I'm not there to sightsee, I there to cache.

So, you see, by you posting notes on caches you have not found, you are the one messing up the PQs and those who rely on them.

Yeah, I know, people will do whatever the heck they want. That is until TPTB have to clamp down and make another rule that affects all of us.

Edited June 24, 2004 by CoyoteRed

5.3k · June 24, 2004

Greetings,

Just wondered what, if anything, you do when you go search for a cache, can't find it, log a DNF and then the cache owner confirms it is MIA and replaces the cache. Is my DNF a valid DNF if the cache wasn't there to be found?

Can my become a because I tried to find something that wasn't there?

Personally I don't really care if the DNF stays or not, I'm just curious to know how others have handled this situation in the past.

Zack

Just because a cacher does not find it cache it does not mean it is missing, maybe the cacher did not look in the right place. A DNF is a DNF. I have a couple of camouflaged micro caches that are very hard to find, one of them I have a hard time seeing and I know were it is. I have seen cachers with triples digit finds. log DNFs on this one, but when I check it, the cache is were I left it. So I now rate it as a 5 for difficulty. Lets face some are harder to find than others. I have seen cachers with just a few finds post a DNF with a note saying the cache is missing when it is not.

38.2k · June 24, 2004

Why not log a DNF, and then edit it to a note or a SBA when the the cache indeed is confirmed missing?

Because if you edit a log, the owner and admins don't get the SBA notification. They only get notification for a new log.

June 24, 2004

A DNF means something differently to me than it does to you. A DNF (to me) means the cache owner stumped me with a hide and I couldn't find it. Depends mainly on if they hide a micro in the forest or maybe it was a very good hide in an obvious place that I didn't check. A DNF does not mean (to me) that I couldn't find it because of muggles, high water, animals or whatever else happens to caches.

DNF mean Did Not Find. Does not mean Did Not Find Because Cache Hidden Too Well. That is DNFBCHTW.

American schools must not so good be if such bad understanding of English language. In Russia speaking so sends to Siberia.

3.9k · June 24, 2004

It's partly a matter of communication, partly consideration.

First, a "Find" is verifiable via a signed logbook or other evidence validated by finder.

If a cache has been muggled, and I've detected/described the appropriate spot to the hiders satisfaction, I log the DNF to let them know, and when they've verified it's gone and suggest I edit my log to a find, I will. The log explains/documents the situation.

I have suggested the same to those who've found any cache of mine muggled. One experienced cacher took it, a newbie didn't feel they wanted to but did after I replaced it.

As a finder, I choose to log DNF's. As a hider, I suggest the seekers log finds since they would have signed the log were it available.

Enjoy either way,

Randy

I'm agreeing with Randy. Holy Crap!! :blink: It's not always a black and white issue. It's entirely up to the cache owner. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those that doesn't log a DNF, I've logged plenty and they're usually some of my favorite adventures.

Example:

I hid a 2 part multi. The cache was muggled within a day or 2 before anyone even found it. The cache was an easy find, hidden under a pile of rocks. The first two people logged DNFs. I emailed them, they verified they were looking in the correct location. Is it their fault the cache wasn't there? Of course not, had it been there it would have been an easy grab and they would have sign the log.

Think about it like this: You've found AND accessed the correct location of the cache, but the cache was missing. Isn't this more of a legitimate find than, (and we know this is done all the time) I spotted the cache 15 feet up in the tree so it's a find right? or; I saw the cache when I looked through the railroad ties 70 feet above the water. I didn't have the nerve to go get but it's still a find right? or; so and so hanged me the logbook and I signed it.

Some caches are easy finds but the point is getting to them is the challenge, IE, "Wheretogo?Vertigo!". Some are meant to be challenging hides where accessing the location is easy but actually finding the cache is a challenge IE, "Palisades Surprise."

Every case is different. It's up to the cache owner.

Edited June 24, 2004 by JMBella

June 24, 2004

So, you see, by you posting notes on caches you have not found, you are the one messing up the PQs and those who rely on them.

Ok....so I guess I'll just not post anything until I find the cache like most everyone else does. No notes, no DNFs, nothing. Nah...that's not how I like to play. I like to make a story out of my cache adventure. I'm not into this game to accomodate the people that use PQ's or other types of software programs to take with them on a hunt. Especially when they state that they don't use the logs or clues to help them on their initial trip.

If you prefer not to read logs or clues before you go on a cache hunt, then that's your perogative. You are going after a cache blindly. That's fine. I don't see how it makes a difference for you if you don't read any of them before you go anyway, no matter what type of log I leave. If you go and you can't find a cache, you refer back to the logs and then the clues. One DNF on a cache will usually not deter the REAL enthusiasts into looking for a cache. Several DNFs will. But when you do a PQ, you only get the last log icon showing. How are you going to know if that's the only DNF or if there are several more? You can't unless you read the logs. If I post a DNF, how are you going to know that they cache is actually missing and that I didn't just overlook it? You can't unless you go look for the cache yourself and make sure, which is what most people do. Most times the cache owner will go out and confirm that a cache is missing. I prefer not to post a DNF on a cache that is missing. So then we come back to the question of posting a DNF on a cache that was never there to begin with. It's a vicious cycle..lol

If I post the first DNF on a cache, are you not going to go after it or are you going to go anyway just to make sure I didn't overlook it? I would feel really bad if I posted a DNF on a cache that was really there and somebody said they didn't go after it because of the DNF icon showing up on a PQ. Ok...not really. But I'm sure it's happened to someone before. If I post a note on a cache saying that I think the cache might be missing and then you come after me and say that's still there, I would go back out and look again. If I still couldn't find it and decided to give up, I would then post a DNF. Then the next person would STILL think that the cache wasn't there because of the DNF icon showing up on a PQ. Another vicious cycle! LOL

June 24, 2004

Ok....so I guess I'll just not post anything until I find the cache like most everyone else does. No notes, no DNFs, nothing.

You just don't like having those unhappy purple faces staring back at ya, do ya? They hurt your ego, don't they? That's what it's all about It's about finding a way to say you failed, without really saying you failed.

4.2k · June 24, 2004

My two cents after skimming this topic (as it's directly related to a thread I started the other day).

No find cache and/or no sign logbook = DNF

(Doesn't matter if cache is missing, you couldn't find it, park was closed, etc.)

As far as notes and the PQ:

I DO run PQs for my Palm and rely on them when out of town, etc.

I DO also post notes/DNFs on pages as part of the experience/history of the cache.

I have been a victim, where after searching for a cache for a while, I went to the logs on my Palm only to see 3 or more notes listed. It happens. Just part of the game.

The world is imperfect.......I'll live.

June 24, 2004

There you go again....taking things out of context. Had you quoted the rest of my post, you would have seen my retraction..."Nah....that's not how I like to play."

I have no ego problem. I have a problem of claiming failure on something that I wasn't even given a fair chance at.

I have posted DNF's before. Go look at them. I just happen to use them differently than you do.

Now go comment on the rest of what I said since we've got this all cleared up.

Edited June 24, 2004 by PandyBat

7.2k · June 25, 2004

I'm not into this game to accomodate the people that use PQ's or other types of software programs to take with them on a hunt.

Is this normal antisocial behaviour? You going to not put back caches where you found them next?

I don't see how it makes a difference for you if you don't read any of them before you go anyway, no matter what type of log I leave.

Because most of the software out that handle PQs can show you the types of the most recent logs and/or flag a cache if it has a certain number of DNFs. When you log a note for your failure-to-find you break that functionality.

One DNF on a cache will usually not deter the REAL enthusiasts into looking for a cache. Several DNFs will.

Not true. A single DNF might make me look at that log. Then I'll make a decision to go for it. Say the log says, "My first hunt. How do you work this thing? LOLOLOL!!!" I'll probably hunt that cache. If it says "Searched for an hour, resorted to a lifeline and then found both sides of the velcro that held the film cannister, but it's probably gone." I'd probably skip it.

But when you do a PQ, you only get the last log icon showing. How are you going to know if that's the only DNF or if there are several more?

You get more that one log in a PQ.

If I post a DNF, how are you going to know that they cache is actually missing and that I didn't just overlook it? You can't unless you go look for the cache yourself and make sure, which is what most people do.

That's true. But if there is a string a DNFs I'd probably skip it. But there would never be a string of DNFs if everyone logged like you propose.

Most times the cache owner will go out and confirm that a cache is missing.

Most of the time but not always. Sometimes it takes them a while. Many owners won't check on a cache with only one DNF anyway because they know a single DNF doesn't mean it's in fact missing. (Unless the actual log gives them a clue.)

I prefer not to post a DNF on a cache that is missing.

Then you are saying you prefer for others to hunt a cache that might not be there when you are giving them no indication of it being otherwise.

So then we come back to the question of posting a DNF on a cache that was never there to begin with. It's a vicious cycle..lol

Hardly.

If I post the first DNF on a cache, are you not going to go after it or are you going to go anyway just to make sure I didn't overlook it?

Depends on what you put in the log. There is likely to not be a spoiler in a DNF log. Those I can read with little fear of anything being given away. Like in my examples above, the log will help determine if I go. A Found It might contain a spoiler. A note is supposed to be about something other than the hunt; maintenance, dropping a TB, what have you; therefore most of the time not of any real importance.

If I post a note on a cache saying that I think the cache might be missing and then you come after me and say that's still there, I would go back out and look again. If I still couldn't find it and decided to give up, I would then post a DNF. Then the next person would STILL think that the cache wasn't there because of the DNF icon showing up on a PQ. Another vicious cycle! LOL

Again, hardly. If I see a Found It log after a DNF, I can assume the cache is still there. If I see two DNFs from one person with a Found It in between, I'll still assume it's still there and you just don't have the "stuff" to find it.

In conclusion, I think I've shown that every one of your reasons for posting a note instead of a DNF is wrong-headed.

Unless, of course, you just don't want to "play well with others."

Edited June 25, 2004 by CoyoteRed

7.2k · June 25, 2004

There is a cache I looked for on serveral occasions. It is hidden in a great place to sit and eat lunch and read a book. Which is half the rerason it took serveral tries, I would eat and read before searching and loose track of time.

Any way to the point, are you saying that I should have posted a DNF for every visit? I post one after the first visit, I actually looked around that time, after seeing found it logs after my DNF I didn't log again until I found it. This was not an Ego thing I just didn't want to clutter the on line log and owners box with a stream of DNF's.;

Now this is certainly in the grey area, but I find this perfectly acceptable especially because of amount of effort put into searching.

June 25, 2004

A DNF means something differently to me than it does to you. A DNF (to me) means the cache owner stumped me with a hide and I couldn't find it. Depends mainly on if they hide a micro in the forest or maybe it was a very good hide in an obvious place that I didn't check. A DNF does not mean (to me) that I couldn't find it because of muggles, high water, animals or whatever else happens to caches.

DNF mean Did Not Find. Does not mean Did Not Find Because Cache Hidden Too Well. That is DNFBCHTW.

American schools must not so good be if such bad understanding of English language. In Russia speaking so sends to Siberia.

I love it!! Someone from Russia who understands the language better than some of us fellow American geocachers. If you get to the cache site and didn't find it. You DID NOT FIND IT.

June 25, 2004

There is a cache I looked for on serveral occasions. It is hidden in a great place to sit and eat lunch and read a book. Which is half the rerason it took serveral tries, I would eat and read before searching and loose track of time.

Any way to the point, are you saying that I should have posted a DNF for every visit? I post one after the first visit, I actually looked around that time, after seeing found it logs after my DNF I didn't log again until I found it. This was not an Ego thing I just didn't want to clutter the on line log and owners box with a stream of DNF's.;

Now this is certainly in the grey area, but I find this perfectly acceptable especially because of amount of effort put into searching.

I do this same thing only backwards. I post the notes first and then eventually a DNF. I don't see the difference.

7.2k · June 25, 2004

I do this same thing only backwards. I post the notes first and then eventually a DNF. I don't see the difference.

You're just screwing with me, now, aren't you!?

June 25, 2004

I do this same thing only backwards. I post the notes first and then eventually a DNF. I don't see the difference.

You're just screwing with me, now, aren't you!?

No. That's how I do it.

Dnf Question

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