Bear Spray stops charging Grizzly

June 8, 2003

By CRAIG MEDRED

Anchorage Daily News

(Published: June 8, 2003)

In the blink of an eye, a defensive grizzly bear sow was rolling like a freight train through the willows along Peters Creek.

Then the brush was bathed in an orange-gray mist.

And in that instant, hiker Carl Ramm saw the sow's eye go wide "and it was gone," he said.

Neither Ramm nor his wife, Susan Alexander, clearly saw the bear leave. They heard it crashing through the brush as it beat a retreat with a cub trailing behind.

"It sounded like a small cub," Ramm said.

The couple hadn't known until almost the last moment that they had somehow walked between a grizzly sow and her cub along the Peters Creek Trail, eight or nine miles into Chugach State Park last weekend.

Similar situations have prompted nasty encounters with brown bears. Grizzly sows are extremely protective of their young. Statistics on bear attacks show a predominance of sows with cubs ripping into people, though they don't often kill.

Almost always, bear experts say, their goal appears to be to neutralize the human by getting them on the ground. That's why standard advice for unarmed people is to get down and cover up, linking the fingers behind the neck so the bear can't grab you.

Unless, of course, you have some way to defend yourself.

Ramm and Alexander did.

Ramm was packing pepper spray. He admits he wasn't a true believer, but he had decided years ago that it was a lot easier to carry a lightweight canister of Counter Assault than a heavy shotgun.

"Up until about three or four years ago," he said, "I needed to take a 12-gauge, but I got tired of lugging that thing."

Besides, he admitted, he wasn't sure of his ability to hit a charging bear with the shotgun if the need arose.

Bear attacks happen so fast that to be effective one's shooting must be instinctive. There is no time to take careful aim.

"It takes a lot of practice," Ramm said.

"I have a significant amount of experience with firearms, both during my time in the infantry and out. There is no way that with a heavy pack in thick brush (with) a bear coming in fast from my side (I could have) done anything other than wound that bear -- if I had even gotten a round off, which I doubt.''

He could, however, fire off a burst from a can of the pepper spray called Counter Assault, which he ripped from a holster at his hip, because no aiming was required.

Like most other red-pepper-based bear repellents, Counter Assault fans out from the nozzle of a spray can in an ever-widening arc.

One need only point the can in the general direction of the bear and squeeze the trigger.

"We've been carrying it for about two years now," Ramm said. "I did some research. We were both reasonably confident of bear spray."

Now, he said, they are "evangelical true believers."

He confesses to being astounded at how the spray instantaneously stopped the bear and turned her away.

"I don't think this was a bluff charge," he added, "because we were between her and her cub.

"The spray hit, and she turned and was gone. That's what amazed me."

Still, Ramm and Alexander could have lived without the exciting weekend experience. Veterans of 20 years of tromping through the Alaska backcountry, they've been contemplating for days how it might have been avoided.

"The whole thing is kind of embarrassing," said Ramm, who is convinced that if the couple had made more noise and paid more attention while working their way up the Peters Creek Trail, they could have avoided the encounter.

"It was the classic bear-charge scenario, I guess," he said. "We were walking into the wind, in dense willows, near a loud, fast-running creek. We should have been shouting at regular intervals, but weren't. ... We might not even have been talking at the time.

"Anyway, we startled her, and we were quite close."

The Ramms did get a quick warning from the sow.

"I heard her woofing," Ramm said, "though woofing seems like a trivial word for the intensity ... and force of it."

The sound alerted him to grab for the pepper spray. He had it in his hand and ready by the time he actually saw the sow crashing through the brush.

He remembers turning to his right, pointing the pepper spray, thinking "This is really bad,'' and pulling the trigger.

Then the bear was gone.

"The point I want to make is that all this happened in no more than six seconds," he added. "The bear was certainly within 20 feet by then. There wasn't a big margin of error. It was a very serious screw-up for us to have gotten into a situation with so little room for error and such serious consequences."

The encounter, he added, wrecked the rest of the outing.

Ramm and Alexander continued on into the high country above Peters Creek, but they had the bears on their minds the whole time.

"We both should have been carrying pepper spray," Ramm said. "Not that we should have both been using it then, definitely not. One was enough. (But) with another full canister we would have felt fine about staying back there for the full length we'd planned. Instead, we hiked back in another four miles or so, spent the night and packed back out the same way the next day.

"There weren't," he added, "a lot of alternatives for ways back out."

Peters Creek has one trail and lots of brush. The bushwhacking is miserable.

"We would have liked to stay longer," Ramm said, "but we just weren't sure how much spray, in practical terms, we had left."

Pepper-spray aerosols are considered a one-shot deterrent. All companies recommend replacing the cans if they are used. The Ramms are now replacing theirs.

Ramm hopes never to need Counter Assault again but adds that he's now confident that it will work if he needs it.

"We'd be happy to proselytize for pepper spray," he said.

Outdoors editor Craig Medred writes a weekly opinion column. He can be reached at cmedred@adn.com or 257-4588.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

24.7k · June 8, 2003

Impressive stuff.

However as a side bar:

"...We'd be happy to proselytize for pepper spray," he said...."

That would land you in big trouble in certain Islamic Republics.

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

3.8k · June 8, 2003

Good to know that it works. I've been packing around a canister for years.

PDOP's GPS Pages

June 8, 2003

Thanks for the post and the good article. I agree that it is wise to carry bear pepper spray in the backcountry. We have carried it for years backpacking while in Glacier Park and on every other trip too. Now we carry it geocaching as you don't want to wish you had it with you if you ever really need it. We carry Counter Assault and through our feelings it is one of the best. Better safe that sorry.

sidewinder

LOST AND FOUND DEPT.

June 8, 2003

quote:
That's why standard advice for unarmed people is to get down and cover up, linking the fingers behind the neck so the bear can't grab you.

"You! Down on the ground! Put your hands behind your head, lace your fingers! Now!"

I'm trying to visualize how a bear can't grab you with laced fingers, but I keep imagining some kind of grizzly cop drama from the 70s.

1.6k · June 8, 2003

Appears as though these folks were lucky enough to have won the lottery, of life...

canadazuuk

June 8, 2003

Seems to me that he wasn't hiking properly. In bear country you should always make lots of noise when you are hiking. When the bears hear you, given enough time, they run away and don't bother you. Normally they only charge or attack if you don't make noise (which means you surprise them in THEIR TERRITORY), get near their food, or approach a cub. All instances can be avoided, except for guarding food, by making noise. In the event you approach a bear guarding food. Simply walk backwards slowly and find a long route around the food.

I've been backpacking and hiking for 20 years and I've never had a problem with bears, ever. Pepper spray is for the uneducated hiker. I know other hikers who have been hiking over 50 years and have never needed it and never been attacked. Counterassault wasn't even invented until 1997 I think.

Practice proper techniques and you'll never have a problem. And always remember it's you invading their space, not the other way around.

________________________

I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people in the world. I'm just saying we should remove all the warning labels and let the problem take care of itself.

4.1k · June 8, 2003

Forgive me, please, but I have to say that the best way to stop a charging bear is to take away his credit cards!

9.5k · June 8, 2003

RIM SHOT!

Cheers!

TL

June 8, 2003

...and give it some clothes

(oh wait thats "bare")

The Department of Redundancy Department

June 8, 2003

Pepper spray...be careful people. I had to do a report on an article concerning this in college. The area the scientists research was performed in was Alaska. The scientists set up areas and sprayed them with the pepper spray, and then obseerved the behavior of the bears.

Their results were quite puzzling... some bears stayed away from the sprayed areas. However, some bears loved the spray, even got right down in it and rolled like it was catnip. I forget which science researrch journal i read this in, but be careful, don't put all your eggs in a basket when it comes to the pepper spray.

"The more I study nature, the more I am amazed at the Creator."

- Louis Pasteur

June 8, 2003

In a related matter, I had been carrying pepper spray on me as I walked to work every day. I had to go past a very aggressive dog. Sure enough one day it was off the leash and came at me. I thought I would see if the stuff really works. The can I had ended up being defective. I had never sprayed or partially used it either. But the nozzle just fell off and a very tiny short stream of the fluid came out just for about 1 second and it quit. Luckily the dog did not finish the attack anyhow. But I was not much of a believer in the stuff after that. I realize that the bear type is probably much stronger and maybe a bigger can. But it would not make me feel too protected.

June 8, 2003

You are more likely to be struck by lightening than to be attacked by a bear and that is a fact. And lightening isn't as dangerous as a car. The only thing you have to fear in the woods are people.

________________________

I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people in the world. I'm just saying we should remove all the warning labels and let the problem take care of itself.

2.8k · June 9, 2003

quote:
The only thing you have to fear in the woods are people.

Did you not see the article at the beginning of this thread

June 9, 2003

quote:
I've been backpacking and hiking for 20 years and I've never had a problem with bears, ever. Pepper spray is for the uneducated hiker. I know other hikers who have been hiking over 50 years and have never needed it and never been attacked. Counterassault wasn't even invented until 1997 I think.

The article was from Alaska, to my knowledge there aren't any grizzleys in Ohio.

What is the bear population in Ohio anyway? I think that the likelyhood of running into a bear should greatly enhance the likelyhood of carrying some sort of protection. Everyone should should do what they think is necessary.

OG

Prophetically Challenged

June 9, 2003

quote:
The article was from Alaska, to my knowledge there aren't any grizzleys in Ohio.
What is the bear population in Ohio anyway? I think that the likelyhood of running into a bear should greatly enhance the likelyhood of carrying some sort of protection. Everyone should should do what they think is necessary.

OG

Prophetically Challenged

Well duh there aren't any grizzley's in Ohio, heck there are hardly any black bears in Ohio. However, I have hiked in locations, such as Yellowstone, which is overflowing with Grizzly's. Last summer I hiked a trail at Yellowstone that often gets closed due to "excessive grizzly activity." No problems.

I also have a cabin in WV where black bears are in abundance and I've encountered them many times--no problems.

Most problems with bear encounters is directly related to inexperience and no education on what to do in the backcountry. Most people see a bear and run...NOT the proper thing to do. A bear can jog faster than the fastest human can run (with the exception of a polar bear which a human can outrun). And if you run it triggers a predatory response in the bear that makes it think you are prey--thus increasing your chances of being mauled or killed.

If taking a can of pepper spray or a gun into the backcountry makes you feel safer, then by all means take it. But the funny thing about pepper spray...many people don't consider which direction the wind is blowing before they discharge it. They see a bear, even bears that are non-threatening, and they discharge the pepper spray...the wind blows it back in their face--so what good does that do? Others get so scared at the site of a bear and discharge immediately--out of the range of the can. And in National Parks you are prohibited from carrying a firearm, it's a felony if you're caught. If you shot a bear you'd go to jail for a long long time as you would be breaking more then 4 laws, self defense or not. If you can't think before discharing a can of pepper spray then you have no business in the backcountry, hike with a friend.

Educate yourself on bears and their environment before you go and you won't need a gun or pepper spray. Don't run, don't look a bear in the eyes ever. Back off slowly if you encounter a bear. If a bear charges you, stand your ground, most likely it is a bluff charge. Stay away from sows and cubs. If you see a bear guarding food or smell something dead, leave the area immediately. Most bears are afraid of people and don't want to run into you anymore than you want to run into them. They do not like confrontations and they especially do not like groups of people. Studies show that bears will not even approach a group of 4 or more people (with the exception of a sow protecting a cub--worse kind of encounter to have). For someone like me, hiking alone in bear country is acceptable. For someone inexperienced it is not--hike with 1-3 friends.

Bears like the trails that people use. If you are not comfortable with a bear encounter, look for signs along the trail. Scat, tracks, scratching. If you see any of this and are uncomfortable running into a bear, immediately go home. It's not worth the risk.

As I stated before you are more likely to get struck by lightening than to be attacked by a bear. You are also more likely to die in a car on the way to the trail than to be killed by a bear. The woods are way safer than any urban area IF you have the knowledge to make it safe.

If anyone has any bear questions, just ask. Really, if you practice the above mentioned techniques you'll have nothing to worry about, however, don't be cocky about it. Lots of information on bear encounters and avoidance techniques can be found on the forums at backpacker.com (http://forums.backpacker.com). There are hikers there that live in bear country and have hiked there for decades with no problems. Learn from what they have posted on the forums.

The most important thing to remember: It is their country you are entering when you enter bear country; they are not invading your country, you are the alien.

________________________

I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people in the world. I'm just saying we should remove all the warning labels and let the problem take care of itself.

June 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Ce'Nedra:
Pepper spray...be careful people. I had to do a report on an article concerning this in college. The area the scientists research was performed in was Alaska. The scientists set up areas and sprayed them with the pepper spray, and then obseerved the behavior of the bears.

Their results were quite puzzling... some bears stayed away from the sprayed areas. However, some bears loved the spray, even got right down in it and rolled like it was catnip. I forget which science researrch journal i read this in, but be careful, don't put all your eggs in a basket when it comes to the pepper spray.

"The more I study nature, the more I am amazed at the Creator."

- Louis Pasteur

I am not a big fan of peper sprays, but there is a problem with that particular study. The sprays are not meant to be used as an area spray. They can only be used as a defensive response to an attack in progress. In fact, spraying the area (or your cloths,as some instructionally challenged have done) will actually ATTRACT bears, as they will interpret the smell as food. The spray must only be used when it is to be directly aimed at the attacker's face. The effectiveness of the spray is directly related to the amount of OC that is applied directly to nose and eye tissue. BTW, that is why the article's insinuation that the spray need not be aimed is also incorrect.

When OC sprays first came into use with policee departments, there were many stories of it's complete failure to stop criminals. It was determined in many of these cases that the spray was used improperly. The officers in these incidents applied the spray in the same manner that they had been trained to use tear gass or "Mace" sprays - that is, spray the chest and let the gas waft up into the face. This doesn't work with the pepper sprays on people any more than "general direction" with bears. The spray blast must go directly into the face so the OC can inflame the soft tissues of the nose and eyes (and hopefully the throat), or it just won't work.

Also BTW - if the hikers had been carrying a more effective defensive tool, they could have had readily available reloads []

June 10, 2003

"Many of the various different State Department of Fish and Wildlife Services around

the country where bears are found have started sending out this advisory to all

hikers, hunters, fishermen, and golfers to take extra precautions and be on the alert

for bears while in those areas that have had recent bear activity.

1) They advise people to wear noise-producing devices such as little bells on

their clothing to alert but not startle the bears unexpectedly.

2)They also advise you to carry pepper spray in case of an encounter with a

bear.

3)It is also a good idea to watch for signs of bear activity. People should be able to

recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear droppings. Black bear

droppings are smaller and contain berries and possibly squirrel fur.

Grizzly bear droppings on the other hand have little bells in them and smell like

pepper spray."

June 10, 2003

We have been hiking with two cans of Counter Assault for years, one in the holster and one in the pack. We hike in the Northeast, where there are only black bears. We have gotten some strange looks/comments from people regarding the bear spray being "overkill". The way we look at is better safe than sorry. It does give us a measure of confidence when out hiking/camping. Plus, if worse came to worse, if it can stop a Grizzly, it sure as hell can stop a human.

The stuff has a shelf life of around three years. When our first can of spray was nearing the expiration date, we took it into a wooded area for a test. Pretty impressive. It makes a spray approx. 4 ft wide and 20 feet long, covering a good sized area. We got around 5 seconds of spray from the can.

Also, there is a pamphlet that comes with the spray waring not to spray around campsite, on clothing, etc. It clearly states that the sole purpose of the spray is to repel a charging bear.

Hopefully we will never have to use the stuff, but as I said earlier, it does make us feel more comfortable having it.

5.9k · June 10, 2003

A couple years ago while riding my bike, I thought I was following a road on my GPS III+ but was actually paralleling a longitude line. (The III+ only overlays the maps) Anyhow, I rode by a house where a large dog was on the porch barking. When I realized the error with the longitude line, I turned around. This time the dog came off the porch like a freight train and was coming up fast from behind me. I opened up on him with 10% pepper spray and he stopped instantly. Not a bear but a threat nonetheless.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

June 10, 2003

Black bears are VERY timid and most likely you'll never have to use the spray on one (mother/cub exception). I would like to mention that the level of capsacin (the stuff that makes the spray worse than normal pepper spray) in counter assault is equal to that of a police issued grade of pepper spray. However, counter assault costs $40-50 and you can get the police pepper spray for $20.

________________________

I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people in the world. I'm just saying we should remove all the warning labels and let the problem take care of itself.

June 10, 2003

I only encountered a black bear once; years ago on a Boy Scout camping trip, me and two other guys were just hiking along in the woods and I heard a noise behind us. Turned around, and there was a black bear. We knew there were bears in the area, and thankfully we'd been warned to never run (I know it sounds easy, but when you actually come face to face with a bear that's your first instinct!).

Anyway, wvbackpacker is 100% correct - this guy was more timid than most cats! He just kind of stood there, sniffed around us, and ambled away. I almost wonder if he was tame; it was a relatively high-traffic camping area, so I'm sure he got plenty of handouts. He sure did act like a dog, but a lot more nervous.

Now, if I came face-to-face with a grizzly...

June 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by wvabackpacker:
Black bears are VERY timid and most likely you'll never have to use the spray on one (mother/cub exception). I would like to mention that the level of capsacin (the stuff that makes the spray worse than normal pepper spray) in counter assault is equal to that of a police issued grade of pepper spray. However, counter assault costs $40-50 and you can get the police pepper spray for $20.

This has been generally true - however, in recent years there have been accounts of some of the larger black bear boars exhibiting behaviour that suggests they do sometimes stalk and hunt humans as prey. Add that to the fact that some of those northeastern blacks have been documented in the 600lbs+ range, and CT Trampers' habit of carrying double bear spray starts to make a lot of sense.

6.5k · June 10, 2003

Two bear thoughts to share here. The first is from when we were silly bored teenagers away at summer camp in NE PA. The oldest groups slept in 4 man army surplus tents up on platforms. One night we snuck into the camp lodge and removed the stuffed bear head from the wall. Crept up to the tent of the kids who always got picked last and stuck it between the flaps! Flashlights were shone from the other end of the tent and we made some noises to awaken the residents.

Second thought is the punch line of a bear joke that had something to do with bells found in the spoor of bears near hiking trails.!

These changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes;

Nothing remains quite the same.

Through all of the islands and all of the highlands,

If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane

June 10, 2003

Well bear spray is not for the uneducated backpacker but for living backpacker. I have backpacked for 35 years and never had to use my bearspray either BUT. We have more grizzly bears where we hike and geocache than other parts of the country. Points are well documented about not spraying bear spray around your camp or on your clothes to keep bears away as it will attract them. If it comes to the choice of carrying a gun or a less lethal form of deterent I will carry the bear spray everytime. Most police pepper spray that I have seen comes in a smaller containers that the ones used for counter assult bear spray.

sidewinde

LOST AND FOUND DEPT.

June 11, 2003

Since nobody's mentioned this, I thought I'd bring it up for discussion. I had previously heard that grizzly's and black bears require totally different types of reactions.

(The curl up versus back away theories...) Thoughts? Opinions?

On the other hand, when I was seven, I was coming down a trail ahead of my father and brother one summer when we were travelling in the NW. I came around a corner and a black bear was near brush by the trail. I was SO excited to see a bear in the wild (versus up a tree at a campground w/a tranq in his butt)! I turned and shouted for my dad and brother to come quick to see the bear.

My little 7-year old voice caused that big ol' brown bear to immediately TAKE OFF faster than my family could arrive to see it...pesky bear.

So do you curl up w/black bears and back away from grizzlies or visa-versa?

Randy

PS: Around here, black bears come up on our porches for those neat 'disposable' plastic containers of bird seed we hang out for them! Fast food for birds and bears!

June 11, 2003

Regarding what to do in a Black Bear attack, I have been taught the following:

Fight it! Curling up as you would do during a Grizzly attack will only make you a submissive food item to the Black Bear. Once you show any resistance, the bear will usually back off.

From the website www.nwtwildlife.rwed.gov.nt.ca:

"If a Bear Charges

A bear charges at high speed on all four legs. Many charges are bluffs. Bears often stop or veer to the side at the last minute. However, if contact appears unavoidable, you have three options: shoot to kill if you have a gun; play dead if you are attacked by a grizzly; or fight back if attacked by a black bear.

Shooting a Bear

The right moment to squeeze the trigger depends on your nerve, experience with a firearm, and how fast the bear is approaching. The decision can be made only by the person facing the bear, and must be made quickly.

An accurate shot fired at close range has a greater chance of killing a bear than one fired from farther away. The first shot is the most important. If you must kill a bear, aim for the shoulder if the bear is broadside, or the back of the neck between the shoulders if the bear is facing you. Avoid head shots - they often do not kill a bear. Do not stop to check the results of your shot. Keep firing until the bear is still. Try to kill the bear cleanly and quickly - a wounded bear is very dangerous.

Playing Dead

Playing dead may prevent serious injury if you are attacked by a grizzly bear. Do not play dead during a black bear attack or if a grizzly bear is treating you as prey. Playing dead will help protect your vital areas, and the bear may leave if you appear harmless. There are two recommended positions:

lie on your side, curled into a ball, legs drawn tightly to your chest, hands clasped behind your neck;

lie flat on the ground, face down, fingers intertwined behind your neck.

Stay in these positions even if moved. Do not resist or struggle - it may intensify the attack. Look around cautiously, and be sure the bear is gone before moving.

Fighting Back

If a black bear attacks you or a grizzly bear shows signs that it considers you prey, and you do not have a firearm, do not play dead. Act aggressively. Defend yourself with whatever means are available. You want to appear dominant and frighten the bear. Jump up and down, shout, and wave your arms. It may help to raise your jacket or pack to make you look bigger."

Hope this helps,

Al.

PS- The only encounter I have ever had with a black bear is very similar to RJ's experience.

My wife and I were hiking up Mt. Tecumseh in New Hampshire. We were approx. 1/2 mile from the trailhead, with the ski area still in view. I heard a noise to my right. Thinking it was a chipmunk due to the "little" sound it made moving, I was quite shocked to see a black bear that weighed around 250 lbs. The only thing I could think of doing was to yell, "BEAR!" As soon as it heard me, it took off into the woods as fast as it could. I had my camera in my front pocket, but the bear took off so quickly that I was unable to get a picture. Amazing sighting. It did, however, make us a bit paranoid during the rest of the hike. We talked much louder from then on, and whenever we'd approach a blind curve we'd shout, "Hey Bear, humans here!"

June 11, 2003

Katoomer, what kind of pepper spray did you have? Those tiny keyring bottles are pretty worthless. I had one in college because I was worried about walking at night. My roommate who also had one, had the sense to test it out one day, and discovered that it only sprayed a tiny stream... almost a trickle. After that, I tried my own and found that it did the same thing. My roommate ended up going to a gun store and bought a rather large, hair-spray sized bottle, which actually sprays. Although I'm not sure how much good that will do in a backpack (which is how she carried her around campus), I'm sure it'd be handy in a holster while hiking. I personally never bought one because I knew I wouldn't walk around campus holding it the whole way... So after that, I just elected to find friends or people walking back to my dorm if it was after dark. In terms of hiking, luckily, I live in N.C. The worst we have are black bears, and only in the mountains, which I don't get to visit often.

June 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by RJFerret:
Since nobody's mentioned this, I thought I'd bring it up for discussion. I had previously heard that grizzly's and black bears require totally different types of reactions.

(The curl up versus back away theories...) Thoughts? Opinions?

CT Trampers is correct. Fight a black bear, be the agressor during an encounter. Most of the time (other than sow/cub encounters) a black bear will be VERY timid. They will run as soon as they see you. If not, just make some loud noise, bang some pots and pans together if you have them, or throw some rocks...then they'll go crashing through the woods.

Fighting a grizzly is just plain dumb...it's gonna win no matter what. Lay on the ground face down with your legs together and your hands clasped around your neck. If you have a backpack on, leave it on.

Also, if you're ever camping and your campsite is approached by a black bear: make noise, it will go away. grizzly bear: be quiet, it will go away. Either way, in bear country, never sleep with food in your tent and never sleep in the clothes that you cooked and ate in. Bears have been known to enter tents over candy bar wrappers and chapstick. No smellables inside a tent, ever!

________________________

I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people in the world. I'm just saying we should remove all the warning labels and let the problem take care of itself.

3.8k · June 11, 2003

quote:
Bears have been known to enter tents over candy bar wrappers and chapstick. No smellables inside a tent, ever!

A good rule for cache items too!

PDOP's GPS Pages

June 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by wvabackpacker:
...and never sleep in the clothes that you cooked and ate in.

I knew the storing food issue (even seen evidence myself) and have that habit everywhere, but the clothing concept is new to me--great thought!

(Not that I camp often in bear country, or even camp much anymore but hey--I'd rather not be ignorant when it comes into play.)

Thanks all you guys for the enlightenment. With a grizzly that can kill you, play dead. Beat up that dumb ol' brown bear. I can manage that.

I don't seem to have trouble intimidating or befriending mammals when I want to...do I Al??? (Inside joke..)

{grin},

Randy

June 11, 2003

Interesting thread... I happen to be in bear country pretty much every day at the office and I do see quite a few.

Some things to remember, bears in general are pretty self absorbed. Basically they are blind and deaf or act that way. I have had them wander by just a few feet away and not pay any attention or basically just ignore me. This has even happened while using the pro model GPS's that dinging, donging and pinging and basically sound like a video game.

Yearling black bears have a habit of being very curious and tolerant of your presents. This becomes a problem in very dense brush where a fellow I work with actually landed on one while stepping over a log. I personally have had them follow me around most of the day kind of like a puppy.

Browns and Gizz can be more aggressive but so far I have never had problem with them. Some of my coworkers haven't been so lucky (long story).

I don't bother carrying anything for bear protection outside of Alaska. Its just extra weight. I know two people that have used the bear sprays. It worked for one and the other was marginal... works just long enough to climb back down out of the tree to get the radio and climb back up the tree to and call for help. The limiting factor with the spray is the weather. Rain and wind limits its effectiveness and in the case of wind it can have more effect on you than the target. Also srays are frowned upon by bush pilots, some will not allow them on the aircraft. A can of bear mace discharges on a helicopter... you crash.

June 11, 2003

Like wvabackpacker, I too am an experienced backpacker, for over 36 years now. I have never had a problem with bears. I make lots of noise, etc. Geocachers should also make noise in bear country. But what works best for me is to bring along a friend. That way if a bear attacks, I have a 50 -50 chance of getting away! And if he is slower than me, better yet...

[This message was edited by Slower Pace on June 11, 2003 at 09:17 PM.]

[This message was edited by Slower Pace on June 11, 2003 at 09:18 PM.]

June 12, 2003

The bear study mentioned above was done about 4 years ago. It proved that some bears like spicy food and that is about all.

Some stupid campers up here spray the campsite with pepper spray and think that it will repel any bears that get near. That is not the case. Just like people, pepper will not hurt a bear unless it is sprayed in the eyes or nose. Many of us like some red peppers on our pizza, yet we would hate it if that same pepper was sprayed as a fine mist and entered our eyes and nose.

Wvabackpacker is right about MOST bears being afraid of people. Yet there are some bears, both black and brown that have no fear of humans. No amount to noise will get rid of those bears. They have learned that humans and what is associated with humans equals food. There have been bears in downtown Anchorage as well as in the hills. Things are a bit different up here than they are in the lower 48.

Several years ago 2 people were killed by a bear at a very popular hiking area just 15 minutes from Anchorage. Thousands hike that trail each year and yet bears are still in the area and will attack if you get too close to a cub or their food stash. In this case the hikers came across a fresh moose kill that was right next to the trail. I doubt that there was little they could have done to prevent that encounter. They were on an established trail that was loaded with human scent. Yet the bear was still in the area.

Up here I would pack a can of pepper spray and my pistol when going anywhere in the woods. Make noise and such, but you never know when a momma bear or momma moose will come out of nowhere and run you down. Better to be prepared than dead or chewed up.

Momma moose are more dangerous than bears if you want my opinion. Moose in and around town have absolutely no fear of humans. Toss in a young calf and things can get really ugly really fast.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

June 12, 2003

On the lighter side of things here is a joke that makes the rounds every now and then.

Enjoy.......

The Alaska Department of Fish and Game recently issued this bulletin... "Warning: In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear conflicts, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.

We advise outdoorsmen to wear noisy little bells on their clothing, so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear. It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear manure: Black bear manure is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear manure has little bells in it and smells like pepper."

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I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

June 12, 2003

There's a lot of good information in this thread. The part I liked about the beginning article was the fact that he didn't have to shoot the bear. By using the Bear Repellent, both the sow and cub lived. If he would of had the shot gun he mentioned, he would of shot the sow and the cub probably would of starved to death. Something to think about, especially when dealing with a endangered species.

I live, hike and geocache in an area that has the highest density of black bears in the world! I have a fishing camp that is a 7 km hike through bear country. I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BEAR while hiking! I've smelt them, saw very fresh sign, but have never seen a bear.

Every hour spent geocaching is added to the end of your life

June 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by wvabackpacker:
No smellables inside a tent, ever!

What about my feet?...

...clear as mud?

June 12, 2003

Oh!...Oh!

Recurring joke goes around about "what is the best handgun for protection from bears?". Punch line is "A .22. All you need is to shoot your partner in the foot and run.."

I just had the thought that this could apply to pepper sprays as well. No need to carry the big canister of bear spray. Just carry the pocket size unit. If the bear attacks, spray your partner....and run!

...clear as mud?

June 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:
What about my feet?...

...clear as mud?

Okay, no food smellables inside a tent, ever! The stinkier a human, the more likely a bear to be repelled! Bears and other animals learn the human smell and dislike it. The worse the better. A lot of hikers will not, self included, wear deoderant in bear country. It attracts bears for one. Two, 3 days without a bath and deoderant will make you stink more. Three, the human smell tends to repel animals, the worse, the better.

Really, after a couple days in the wilderness you stink anyway and you don't notice it, so it's not a big deal. Who's going to smell you? A deer?

Someone mentioned that MOST bears are afraid of humans, but not all. This is true too. Fortuneately I've never encountered a "tame" bear or a bear that is comfortable around humans. However, whatever you do don't let it have your food! It will then associate more people with food and could attack innocent people and if you notice a bear being comfortable around humans, notify a ranger immediately. The lives of other hikers, and yourself, could be saved by informing a ranger.

________________________

I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people in the world. I'm just saying we should remove all the warning labels and let the problem take care of itself.

June 13, 2003

Here is an excellent link to a USGS study of bears with pepper spray. http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm

The top paragraph caught my attention:

quote:
Bear pepper spray is no substitute for appropriate conduct in bear country. It should only be relied on as a last resort and if you are typical of the vast majority of outdoor enthusiasts, you will never need to rely on it to resolve a bear-human encounter.

It also stated that during a study, bear spray was quite effective, however, in three cases the bears attacked after being sprayed in the face. Two of the attacks were encounters with sow and cub.

Also, firearms don't increase your chances very much. According to the 14 year study, 44 people carrying firearms were fatally wounded. 56 individuals carrying nothing were also fatally wounded. Just because you have pepper spray or a gun doesn't mean you'll live.

With that, I refer to the original quote which states that "pepper spray [or a firearm] is no substitute for appropriate conduct in bear country."

BE EDUCATED first as that is the most important factor for staying alive in bear country. Be armed if you like, but first and foremost be educated.

________________________

I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people in the world. I'm just saying we should remove all the warning labels and let the problem take care of itself.

June 13, 2003

Bears out at Lake Illiamna up here have taken to mugging fishermen for their catch.

You are required to take your fish to a cleaning station and clean it immediatly after you bring it in. A few bears each year learn that all they have to do is step onto the trail between the lake and the cleaning shed as a fisherman approaches. They get a free meal and the fisherman gets scared.

I have run into bears a number of times up here. Most simply turn and go the other way. A few have just stood there and watched me pass by (from a distance). Two that I know of actually followed me for a couple hundred yards before turning and heading off in another direction. The followers were young black bears. Curious things they are.

I hope to never get attacked. I make noise and use common sense, yet I always carry a means to defend myself just in case. It is pretty neat to watch a momma bear and her cub from a distance. I wish everyone could see that sight at least once in thier lifetime.

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I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

June 13, 2003

Fascinating topic, but for every piece of advice of seen sited, I can find a study that would tell you to do the opposite.

For example, common wisdom has been to wear bright colored clothing and bear bells when hiking, so as to alert the bears to your presence. This should send the bears packing long before you ever see them. However some studies showed that many bears are very curious, and are ATTRACTED by bright colors and odd sounds (like bells). Of course, how they react when they realize a person is the cause is another story, but if a bear is looking to kill someone (unusual, but not unheard of) then you've basically strapped a dinner bell to your brightly-colored buffet.

Anyone who believes that a gun is their best protection, however, is sorely mistaken. The odds of being able to hit a charging bear are very small, whereas with pepper spray you generally have to only spray in the general direction for it to be effective. Still, as everywhere else in life, there are no guarantees.

The best thing you can do before hiking in an area where there are bears? Keep your will updated.

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by wimseyguy:
Two bear thoughts to share here. The first is from when we were silly bored teenagers away at summer camp in NE PA. The oldest groups slept in 4 man army surplus tents up on platforms. One night we snuck into the camp lodge and removed the stuffed bear head from the wall. Crept up to the tent of the kids who always got picked last and stuck it between the flaps! Flashlights were shone from the other end of the tent and we made some noises to awaken the residents.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*Ahem* Kids, don't try this at home.

4.5k · July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:...Grizzly bear droppings on the other hand have little bells in them and smell like
pepper spray."

That's funny Trooper. Actually I got so nervous reading this topic I plan I taken a can of this stuff nect time I go to the Bronx Zoo.!

Alan

2k · July 28, 2003

I have talked to several people who have had encounters with bears and one theme was repeated. Don't look to kill a bear with just any gun. The preferred weapon was a 44 magnum. It seems that lesser guns just **** the bear off. I have also been told that using a walking stick with a bell on it would eliminate this problem most of the time.

July 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Indiana Cojones:
...The odds of being able to hit a charging bear are very small...

Depends on who you are. Speak for yourself only. Some of us actually CAN and DO shoot well under pressure.

quote:
...whereas with pepper spray you generally have to only spray in the general direction for it to be effective...

Never mind that this ain't quite true - besides the fact that it is reminiscent of the myth about shotguns and burglars, it also doesn't take wind or rain into account - even it it were, it doesn't make the spray a substitute for an effective firearm. It's just another tool - you decide whether it's worth carrying.

Regarding calibers:

Last summer a fisherman in Alaska who was charged by a griz shot and killed it with a 9mm. He was either very lucky or an exceptional marksman or both. Either way, he was one cool customer - he stood firm and made the shot.

For handguns in griz country, 44mag is accepted by most as the bare (bear?) minimum. 480 Ruger might be better. 454 Casull is preferred if you can handle it. Most of you mortals would be better off with a carbine in .308 or better, with dangerous-game loads. Most of the rest of you sheeple should stick to the bells, spray, and good fortune. []

Oh yeah...good habits go a long way...

"...clear as mud?"

July 28, 2003

Okay, let me expel some myths here. It's obvious that a lot of you guys are greenhorns.

Since 1900 there have been 45 fatal bear attacks in North America

Dogs kill 20 people per year. Dogs killed more people between 1979 and 1994 than bears did in 100 years. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm

Deer are responsible for 130 human deaths per year.

http://www.marion.ohio-state.edu/SpiderWeb/Spider%20Bites.htm

Between 1959 and 1994 Lightning has killed over 5,000 people. http://www.erh.noaa.gov/er/cae/svrwx/lightningdeaths.htm

In the year 2000 lightning killed more people than bears have in 100 years. http://www.wxresearch.org/press/light2002.htm

The biggest killer: Cars. In 2001 and 2002 over 43,000 people were killed in car accidents. http://www.womanmotorist.com/index.php/news/main/1864/event=view

So really...what are you people afraid of? Bears don't want anything to do with people. You're more likely to die on your way to go geocaching in a car than you are to die from a bear in the backcountry...heck, you have a greater chance of being electrocuted by lightning than attacked, killed, or maimed by a bear. Again I ask, why are you people still afraid of bears? Start fearing what's more likely to kill you like a DEER or a car.

________________________

I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people in the world. I'm just saying that we should remove all the warning labels from everything and let the problem take care of itself. http://jeremy.qn.net/

July 29, 2003

I think it's a matter of the environment you are in. Of course more people are killed by dogs and cars, most people spend a large portion of their lives around dogs and cars. Back east deer are everywhere, and lightning is too. Bears aren't, and Bears don't normally live in high (human) population density areas. So yes, bears don't kill a whole lot of people.

Do you have any magical statistics for what percentage of people that walk through bear habitat are killed by bears? I bet car deaths would be pretty small by comparison in those areas.

If you're in bear country, it makes sense to consider a means of protection from bears, but on the freeway, a seatbelt may be more help.

Funny thing about statistics, alone, they don't mean squat.

_________________________________________________________

If trees could scream, would we still cut them down?

Well, maybe if they screamed all the time, for no reason.

Click here for my Geocaching pictures and Here (newest)

July 29, 2003

I thought this thread had died.

quote:
wvabackpacker said:

Since 1900 there have been 45 fatal bear attacks in North America

Funny, I can remember 5 deaths in recent memory up here. And that is just local stuff, not sure about the rest of the country. That number of 45 seems a bit low.

About 9 years ago a guy was killed on the north slope by a polar bear.

7 years ago, 2 people were killed on one of the most popular hiking trails in Alaska by a Brown.

Year after that a guy was killed by a brown bear while hunting.

2 Years ago a surveyor was killed in a brown bear attack.

8 weeks ago a teenager was mauled by a brown bear while hunting.

2 weeks ago a fisherman was nearly killed by a brown bear. Only reason he lived is because others were nearby to help him.

Last week a forest service worker fought off a couple bears for a couple hours in a very rare occurance of a black bear stalking a human.

There are lots of maulings that happen each year up here. Point is that if you are going to be in bear country you had best be prepared as well as educated in what to do if you should encounter a bear.

So far this summer I have encountered three bears on local trails. Two ran off when they saw me, the other stood up to get a better look and then ran off. This is typical bear reaction. They dont like humans and will run off when they see or smell you.

However, there are bears out there that will not run off. These are the ones that worry me. Check out this story.

Or this one

This is why I go out prepared.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

July 29, 2003

Here is the text version of the links in the above post:

Girdwood hiker battles, races bears

BLACKIES: Attacking the animals is a good idea, but not if they're brown.

By CRAIG MEDRED

Anchorage Daily News

(Published: July 20, 2003)

Armed only with a big stick, U.S. Forest Service recreation technician Jeff Nissman last week waged a successful, hour-long, running battle with a black bear along the California Creek Trail in the Girdwood Valley.

Over the course of the encounter, Nissman repeatedly clubbed the bear. That drove it back, but did not curb its interest. The bear, according to Nissman, refused to give up the chase until the man reached the regularly trafficked Crow Creek Road.

"That was pretty odd,'' area wildlife biologist Rick Sinnott of the Alaska Department of Fish and Game said later.

But not unprecedented.

The bear behavior Nissman detailed in a report he posted for Forest Service employees on the Internet parallels other accounts of predatory black bears. Sinnott said he is concerned enough about this incident that he plans to hike the California Creek Trail himself to see if the bear is still hanging around, acting oddly.

Nissman, meanwhile, is frank about his own feelings regarding this particular black bear.

"If I had a gun, as we carry at work, there would be one very dead bear,'' the young hiker wrote.

Nissman has reasons to feel this way. The aggressiveness of the bear leaves the impression that it might have been sizing up the hiker as lunch.

In writing about "The Predaceous Black Bear'' in the book "Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance,'' Canadian wildlife biologist Stephen Herrero notes, "Warning signals of aggressive intent by black bears have seldom been reported to precede cases of apparent predation. Instead, a typical predation scenario might involve the bear slowly approaching a person during the day, perhaps partly circling and then rushing toward the person, trying to knock the intended prey down and inflicting injuries with jaws or paws and claws.''

Compare that to Nissman's account of meeting a pair of black bears, apparently siblings, a mile and a half from Crow Creek Road:

"I ran into these guys who were a little too interested in me. I waited for a while and then started making a lot of noise and yelling at them, but they didn't move.

"This was starting to get me concerned. ... Usually when you see two or more bears, it is a sow with cubs, which can be very dangerous. Also they could be recently abandoned 2- to 3-year-old cubs figuring out their position for dominance.

"When one of the bears slowly started walking in my direction and ignoring all my yelling, I decided to slowly start backing off and heading back in the direction I came....I made maybe 150 yards into the thick woods when I heard the bear charging through the woods at me."

Having undergone Forest Service bear training, he knew this was not a good sign.

"If predation is the motive for an attack,'' Herrero writes, "the attack typically continues until the bear is forced to back down or the person gets away or the bear gets its prey."

Nissman didn't want to become prey.

"I jumped up on a tree's root wad and made myself as big as I could,'' he wrote, "and started yelling at the bear. It stopped just behind the next tree. It was popping its jaw (a sign of aggression) and was kinda watching me from behind the tree. We were at a standstill for about five minutes doing this, and I snapped ... two photos but didn't have that steady of a hand.

"After that, my camera was in my pocket for the rest of the ordeal. (Then) I heard the other bear crashing around in the woods toward us about 100 yards away. It was huffing and watching. I thought maybe since we were at a standstill for a while now that I could slowly start making my way away from the bear, but as soon as I left the tree and slowly started backing off, the bear would charge at me till I jumped on a log and started yelling at it.

"The bear would just stop and make noises at me. I was breaking off branches throwing them at the bear, but it didn't seem to bother him. This went on for a few more times ... while making my way slowly toward the main trail. I finally realized the only way to stop the bear from coming toward me was to charge at it.

"I had stopped throwing sticks at the bear and had a large branch in my hand. I would go after the bear swinging, and it would back off, then lean up against a tree and think about climbing it. Then I would swing the stick and whack the bear in the (rear end), and it would climb up the tree. I would make more noise and whack at his feet and the tree (until) he went higher up the tree. Then, when the bear was high up in a tree, I would head toward the trail.

"The bear would climb down the tree and chase full speed after me. Then I would do the same thing. I was slowly making ground toward the main trail. When I hit the main trail, I continued doing this, but the bear stopped climbing the trees and just would back off as I was swinging at it, then turn and come after me. I finally made it to the road, and the bear didn't follow me anymore.

"I got pretty cut up and sprained my knee while doing this through the thick woods."

The encounter also ended up costing Nissman the seat on the mountain bike he'd left at the trail head.

"I'd left it there, as I was a little busy just trying to get out of there,'' he wrote. "When I went back to pick up my bike, the seat was chewed up by a bear. I have had many bear encounters here in Alaska, and this was the first time one followed me and chased me around the woods.''

Had he decided to play dead -- the recommended procedure when a brown bear attacks -- he might be dead.

Anytime a black bear "appears to be pressing an attack,'' Herrero writes, "then the unarmed person should either try to escape to a nearby hard-sided shelter or fight back. Heavy objects such as axes, stout pieces of wood or rocks are possible weapons. They can be used to hit a bear on the head with the hope of stunning it and causing it to leave. Other aggressive actions by a person might include kicking, hitting with a fist, yelling or shouting at the bear, or banging objects such as pots together in front of a bear's face."

This advice is strictly for black bears. Attacking grizzly bears, whether you are armed or unarmed, is generally not a good idea, which is why Herrero suggests that the first step toward safety in bear country -- and all of Alaska is bear country -- is learning to be able to recognize black bears from grizzly bears in the blink of an eye.

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I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

Bear Spray stops charging Grizzly

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