Found the cache - can't open the container...

[+tweetiepy]

I didn't log the find as found but I put a note - my son and I found the cache - we both ended up on our backs once or twice as all the paths are covered in ice & snow. We have the container in our hands but neither one of us could open it - not sure if it's frozen or if the camo tape is stuck. We'll return once it thaws a bit. My son wants to go back tomorrow but we'll have to see if it gets a bit warmer.

[+T.D.M.22]

Is there a question here somewhere?

[+JKMonkey]

Happened to me yesterday except I was able to open the cache but I couldn't get the log out. Just take a picture with it and send it to the CO to see if they think it's appropriate for you to log the find next time.

[+kunarion]

I didn't log the find as found but I put a note - my son and I found the cache - we both ended up on our backs once or twice as all the paths are covered in ice & snow. We have the container in our hands but neither one of us could open it - not sure if it's frozen or if the camo tape is stuck.

I logged a DNF on a PVC pipe cache, a couple of months ago. It just would not open. The next finder had two pairs of pliers.

 

If you go out in the snow again, plan to heat the container a little. I've thought of buying a 12V window defroster for drying log sheets, and it would also be useful for frozen containers.

Edited February 4, 2013 by kunarion

[AZcachemeister]

If you have to defrost the container to get it open...is it a D5?

 

[+wmpastor]

I didn't log the find as found but I put a note - my son and I found the cache - we both ended up on our backs once or twice as all the paths are covered in ice & snow. We have the container in our hands but neither one of us could open it - not sure if it's frozen or if the camo tape is stuck. We'll return once it thaws a bit. My son wants to go back tomorrow but we'll have to see if it gets a bit warmer.

 

You did notice the level 5 difficulty rating, didn't you ?!

[GPS-Hermit]

I would log a find and email the owner - I am sure it was easy to open at one time - if that doesn't work - I would log a needs maintence on it and leave a log saying what the problem is. Most times that is all ya got to do!

[+BlackRose67]

Given the recent freeze/thaw cycles we've had around here, it's likely frozen and that is happening to a lot of the caches in the area.

 

One option some of the local cachers do is take a photo of the cache if they can't get it open, log the find and indicate in the find log that you have a photo as proof you found the cache (but don't submit the photo when you log the find). Most COs in the area don't have an issue with that.

[+cerberus1]

Buried (in snow) and frozen containers is one of the fun experiences we prepare for when going out this time of year.

I usually carry a handheld metal detector, a length of rope with a (real) carabiner on the end (for breaking free rope-hung hides off of ice in tree limbs) and silicone jar openers for tough-to-open containers.

Smoker, I always have a lighter or two on me for heat.

Most smaller containers open okay after just a few minutes under your jacket.

- Had an ammo can with it's bottom half frozen in an icey rock crevice just a few weeks ago.

After chipping it free with my ice axe , two minutes waving a zippo around the lid freed it's top.

- Not a good idea with plastic though.

If we can't get 'em open we DNF and attempt another day.

[+L0ne.R]

Given the recent freeze/thaw cycles we've had around here, it's likely frozen and that is happening to a lot of the caches in the area.

 

One option some of the local cachers do is take a photo of the cache if they can't get it open, log the find and indicate in the find log that you have a photo as proof you found the cache (but don't submit the photo when you log the find). Most COs in the area don't have an issue with that.

 

We wouldn't have a problem with folks logging the find if the container was encased in ice. Better then trying to force the container out of the ice and breaking the container in the process. I did this to one of our own caches once. Shattered the lid by chipping away at the ice.

[+ShaunEM]

Yes, this should be respected. If you log a cache by smashing it.. you should feel pretty bad for yourself.

 

Just in the past week I called off two searches that I figured I would break the cache just as likely as finding it.

 

These things open like butter in the summer.. most of the time!

 

Shaun

[+K13]

I sure hope no one else goes looking for this cache while you have it at your house. That would really aggravate someone who had it loaded in their GPSr and didn't see your note about removing the cache.

[+-CJ-]

Once failed to get a micro magnetic container from its hiding place. The hole was very narrow and it seemed that I would most probably push it further so it would be totally inaccessible. Logged DNF with some hope that the cache owner would take care. Since he didn't pay any attention I just returned next week with a proper instrument and grabbed the container easily.

 

Frozen containers are frequent here in Russia. Geocachers come from nice warm countries at summer and place containers like they would probably do where they live. This year I tried to find a cache in Moscow near our highest TV tower. This would be an easy find in summer but is covered with thick snow carpet in winter - the CO apparently didn't think that winter in Russia might be quite snowy No seasonal attributes, no warnings. Maybe it is still possible to dig the box from snow but I cannot imagine how one could be stealthy enough because the GZ is very close to the TV tower guards cabin. Will wait until late April (normally this is when snow melts here completely).

 

It is also very common that CO hide micros in parks using such places as branch forks. These hides are usually done in summer. In winter however these containers are frequently covered with ice so you can touch them and even see them but cannot open them. (Or probably you need a gas stove and a pint of hot water to melt this ice down ). Last month I had to log DNF at two geocaches of this kind.

[+OZ2CPU]

you MUST sign the log book to be able to legally log it as found online !

please read the guidelines.

if no access to the logbook, you use a NOTE and say details,

a DNF only make sense to use, incase you did not find anything at all,

[+wmpastor]

Be prepared for frozen caches. No supply kit is complete unless it contains (1) a butane lighter and (2) a can of WD-40 lubricant. Do not use both on a single cache.

Edited February 4, 2013 by wmpastor

[+redsox_mark]

you MUST sign the log book to be able to legally log it as found online !

please read the guidelines.

if no access to the logbook, you use a NOTE and say details,

a DNF only make sense to use, incase you did not find anything at all,

 

Both the points above have been much debated on this forum.

 

For the first point (must sign the log): my personal view is use the log which I think best describes my experience. In a case like this (with cache owners agreement), I would log it as a find. I did find it; the frozen lid was a "technicality". I would take a photo and offer that to the owner as evidence. If the owner takes the view that you MUST sign the log in all cases, I would accept that.

 

The second point (DNF or not) has also been debated. Many feel that once you start to search, there are only 2 options - either Found it or DNF.

[+wmpastor]

 

The second point (DNF or not) has also been debated. Many feel that once you start to search, there are only 2 options - either Found it or DNF.

 

That's an extreme view. I plan to find a cache. I passed it at night (no flashlight), & did a "preliminary search." I posted a note about my experience & future plan.

[+MartyBartfast]

If you can't open the container because it's a deliberately sneaky container (e.g. a cryptex, Chinese box puzzle) then that's part of the cache and failing to open it should be a DNF. If you can't open it because it's frozen solid then go ahead and log it as found, I'm sure the owner would prefer you to do so rather than risk breaking it by forcing it open.

[+-CJ-]

a DNF only make sense to use, incase you did not find anything at all

 

I don't see much difference if I describe precisely what happened with the cache. For instance, I sometimes logged geocaches as DNF because it was too risky to approach GZ due to muggles. It's DNF since I failed to find the cache. At the same time it's not DNF since I didn't actually searched at GZ.

 

If you can't open it because it's frozen solid then go ahead and log it as found

 

There are too many situations when one have to decide whether to log some cache as found or not. Some people would agree that if one can log a cache as found without opening the box then one can do the same without touching container (for instance, if it's frozen into ice totally). So, it becomes possible to find a cache by just seeing it. E.g. I see a micro magnet attached to a road sign but there are people standing and walking around, so should I log this cache as found? And so on, and so forth. The reason may be just the same in all cases: save a cache from risks of being broken or muggled. We had the very same issue at our Russian national geocaching website. No "universal" solution was found, but what actually happened was that COs started to archive their caches for winter or turn them into virtuals (virtuals have never been banned at .su). And there have been more and more false "found it" from cache seekers ("It was so snowy that we were afraid that our steps could spoil the cache camouflage so we just logged it as found, TFTC").

 

Instead, there are pretty clear things COs can do: when placing a cache think about how it will look like in winter (in high water, in heavy rain, at night) and choose your hiding spots (and hiding technique) accurately. For cache hunters: write down a COs phone number and take your repairing kit with you. If you're ready to repair/replace an e.g. frozen cache if its lid is broken - go ahead, open it and sign the logbook. If not, don't give it a try, and that cannot be "found it".

[+redsox_mark]

That's an extreme view. I plan to find a cache. I passed it at night (no flashlight), & did a "preliminary search." I posted a note about my experience & future plan.

 

I agree and it is not my view; but you will find threads where many have that view. Just saying that there is no clear agreed "rule" about when to DNF (this is the subject of several other threads).

[+DanOCan]

If you can't open the container because it's a deliberately sneaky container (e.g. a cryptex, Chinese box puzzle) then that's part of the cache and failing to open it should be a DNF. If you can't open it because it's frozen solid then go ahead and log it as found, I'm sure the owner would prefer you to do so rather than risk breaking it by forcing it open.

Hey, no fair introducing common sense into the equation!

 

As in most things caching, the proper answer is usually "It depends." However, in the forums, it seems customary to adopt a "Thou MUST" attitude and then defend that position as if it were religious dogma.

 

As a CO, I'm quite OK with someone logging a find if they felt retrieving the container would likely damage it.

[Mr.Yuck]

I didn't log the find as found but I put a note - my son and I found the cache - we both ended up on our backs once or twice as all the paths are covered in ice & snow. We have the container in our hands but neither one of us could open it - not sure if it's frozen or if the camo tape is stuck. We'll return once it thaws a bit. My son wants to go back tomorrow but we'll have to see if it gets a bit warmer.

 

That's interesting. I'd say a frozen in place container is more common. I personally would not log as found a container I couldn't open, or free from it's hiding spot. However, I would (and pretty sure I have) allowed finds on my own caches, with a picture of the container.

[Pup Patrol]

I wouldn't suggest removing the cache from its hiding place, but it's too late now that you've done that. I hope you posted a note on the cache page explaining what you've done. Hopefully the cache owner is active and will disable it until it's been returned.

 

Frozen caches are common in our climate, so there's no reason to be removing them from their hiding places.

 

There are more log options than "found it" and "didn't find it". You could have left it in place and posted a "write not" log, saying that you couldn't open it.

 

 

B.

[+OZ2CPU]

waiting out mugglers at GZ is an important part of the game !

if you can't wait, you can't sign it,

so offcourse you can't log it as found online !!

 

There are tons of more or less similar situations

caches are placed to trick you, entertain you, and to educate your skils as a geocacher,

I saw the cache up the tree, but I am too lazy to get a ladder, ok found it,

what bad way to play.

 

a cache is stuck under halve a meter ice.. solve it !!

sign it, or get back when there is no ice

 

people ruin the game, for them self and for others,

stick to D1½/T1½ caches if you cant play fair.

[+redsox_mark]

I saw the cache up the tree, but I am too lazy to get a ladder, ok found it,

what bad way to play.

 

a cache is stuck under halve a meter ice.. solve it !!

sign it, or get back when there is no ice

 

people ruin the game, for them self and for others,

stick to D1½/T1½ caches if you cant play fair.

 

I see a big difference between these cases. A cache hidden in a tree is was placed there to provide a physical challenge; of course just seeing it in the tree is not enough.

 

Finding a frozen cache is different. It might be a 1/1 cache.. the owner (most likely) did not intend defrosting the cache as part of the challenge.

 

Basically any of these special cases of "should I log it" come down to 2 camps:

 

1. One which says "use your judgement" (and different people will have different judgement)

2. One which says you must sign the log, no exceptions.

 

2) is less open to interpretations I agree. But even it doesn't guarantee people will play fair. Which is worse to claim a find for. Climbing a tree and reaching a cache (with photo evidence) to find it is frozen in the tree; or having someone else climb the tree for you and you sign the log on the ground?

 

Now I've never found a frozen cache. I think I've claimed a find on 3 or 4 caches where I didn't sign the log but there was a good reason and evidence was supplied to the owner who agreed I could log it as a find. Sure I could have put a DNF or note.. but on the other hand I don't think my claiming them as a find ruined the game for myself or anyone else.

 

P.S. - Thomas I might need your help with this one.. http://coord.info/GC43YZV

[+T.D.M.22]

We'll return once it thaws a bit. My son wants to go back tomorrow but we'll have to see if it gets a bit warmer.

It does not say they took the cache-it says they will return to the cache. Unless of course they said something in their DNF log(I didn't see the log)

 

I wouldn't suggest removing the cache from its hiding place, but it's too late now that you've done that.

 

B.

 

I sure hope no one else goes looking for this cache while you have it at your house. That would really aggravate someone who had it loaded in their GPSr and didn't see your note about removing the cache.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

you MUST sign the log book to be able to legally log it as found online !

please read the guidelines.

if no access to the logbook, you use a NOTE and say details,

a DNF only make sense to use, incase you did not find anything at all,

 

Maybe you should re-read the guidelines.

 

"Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed." It does nto say "..can ONLY be logged.."

 

This does not preclude a CO from allowing a log for a situtation that the original poster mentions.

[+StarBrand]

I've only come across 3 containers that I could not open. All 3 were meant to be tricky to open. Kind of like solving a puzzle in the field. None of the three were listed as puzzle caches. I really do not understand the point of such caches. To me it is about the hunt and the hide and the find. If I can't get it open - I log the DNF and move on.

[Andronicus]

If you can't open the container because it's a deliberately sneaky container (e.g. a cryptex, Chinese box puzzle) then that's part of the cache and failing to open it should be a DNF. If you can't open it because it's frozen solid then go ahead and log it as found, I'm sure the owner would prefer you to do so rather than risk breaking it by forcing it open.

+1

You know, for every mile of road, there is two miles of ditch. I think you managed to stay ot the road with this answer.

[+L0ne.R]

waiting out mugglers at GZ is an important part of the game !

if you can't wait, you can't sign it,

so of course you can't log it as found online !!

 

Risky. If a CO was a stickler about it, their cache may end up compromised. The finder might 'out' the cache spot in front of a group of muggles in order to sign that log to get the smiley.

[+DragonsWest]

Frequently find old cocoa, cookie or mint tins which are decidedly rusted shut. I pry them open with my screwdriver and then straighten out any bending I caused. Then leave a note to CO that that cache is in the throes of corrosion and should be replaced.

[+tweetiepy]

We'll return once it thaws a bit. My son wants to go back tomorrow but we'll have to see if it gets a bit warmer.

It does not say they took the cache-it says they will return to the cache. Unless of course they said something in their DNF log(I didn't see the log)

 

I wouldn't suggest removing the cache from its hiding place, but it's too late now that you've done that.

 

B.

 

I sure hope no one else goes looking for this cache while you have it at your house. That would really aggravate someone who had it loaded in their GPSr and didn't see your note about removing the cache.

Thank you for clearing that up - We DID NOT bring home the cache, we had it in our hands and couldn,t open it, and put it back in it's hidey spot. We will return when the weather gets a little warmer.

 

I didn't log a DNF but left a note on the log saying it was frozen shut.

 

This wasn't a puzzle cache (I'm looking forward to finding one of those) this was just the weather being nasty to us - it did let us see a jack rabbit sprinting across the field though.

 

I believe in logging a find only if I actually sign the log - we've had to return to a few locations for various reasons, this one will be no exception. We plan on signing that piece of paper...

[+WarNinjas]

I would contact the co and see what he/she says. Probably a mistake on there part of container selection for the spot. I see the importance of signing the log but wouldn't want to go back to a place I went threw frozen areas just to sign a log. I wouldn't use it as part of our streak though without signing it.

-WarNinjas

[+The_Incredibles_]

You found it right?

And you're sure it was the geocache?

And it's not supposed to be hard to open?

I say log it, but definately include in your log about the cache being frozen so the owner knows.

Unless the cache owner's a really uptight SOB, my guess is they'll be fine with it.

[+-CJ-]

There are many sutuations when (according to this approach) cache hunters can log caches as found without signing their logbooks. Just do this once or twice as an exclusion, it may turn into a habit.

[+The_Incredibles_]

There are many sutuations when (according to this approach) cache hunters can log caches as found without signing their logbooks. Just do this once or twice as an exclusion, it may turn into a habit.

 

Or it may not. Maybe in your area this problem is rampant, but not in mine. Occasionally I'll see a 'forgot pen' log but 99% of the time people are signing the physical log. In fact, when I've checked my physical logs, I usually find *more* signatures on the physical log than there are online logs.

[+Roman!]

Wonder if anyone bothered reading the latest newsletter:

 

The basics of geocaching are inspiring in their simplicity. A geocacher hides a geocache and challenges others to find it. That’s it. And it’s easy to unlock the joy of geocaching when you discover clever hides and share the adventure with good friends. Becoming a great geocacher is all about remembering the little things. If you follow these five quick steps every time you geocache, you’ll be ready for Geocaching stardom.

 

1) Bring a Pen – There are few rules in geocaching. But one rule is that you need to sign the logbook. Always pack a pen to make sure you’re ready to sign your Geocaching username, the date, and leave a note.

[+-CJ-]

Maybe in your area this problem is rampant, but not in mine.

 

Maybe. One of main reasons for me to be at this forum is to learn what practical experience</recommendations given here could be applicable in our region.

 

The described situation is one of those where I follow a very simple solution. A forgotten pen is definitely my own problem (as a cache hunter) and I won't bother anyone with explanations, requests, questions, etc. A frozen container or soaked logbook is still a problem (perhaps a serious one) and to me it looks reasonable to try to solve it - or log the cache as DNF (if I have no instruments/time/motivation/etc.). Again, you're probably right about this issue being area specific,

 

I usually find *more* signatures on the physical log than there are online logs

 

So do I. Does this just demonstrate that geocaches are visited by non-geocachers?

[+OZ2CPU]

>I usually find *more* signatures on the physical log than there are online logs

 

amazing, I find the opposite,

I am sorry to find some geocache ONLY to put a score on a webpage,

NOT first of all to see or do something cool outdoor.

[+briansnat]

you MUST sign the log book to be able to legally log it as found online !

please read the guidelines.

if no access to the logbook, you use a NOTE and say details,

a DNF only make sense to use, incase you did not find anything at all,

 

In most cases, what constitutes a find is between the CO the cache hunter. If that were my cache and he noted the circumstances in a DNF or note log I would encourage him to log a find. He found my cache, that's good enough for me. And I sincerely doubt Groundspeak would step in and tell me I couldn't do that.

 

The way I see it, this is geocaching, not geologging. The object is to find the cache and signing the log is merely is proof that you did. So if someone can't sign the log because the cache is frozen in place, it's too wet to sign, he forgot his pen, or whatever; a photo or his word (assuming there is no good reason for me not to trust it) are proof enough for me.

[+redsox_mark]

 

The way I see it, this is geocaching, not geologging. The object is to find the cache and signing the log is merely is proof that you did. So if someone can't sign the log because the cache is frozen in place, it's too wet to sign, he forgot his pen, or whatever; a photo or his word (assuming there is no good reason for me not to trust it) are proof enough for me.

 

+1

 

This what I was trying to say, but the above says it much better.

[+wmpastor]

There are many sutuations when (according to this approach) cache hunters can log caches as found without signing their logbooks. Just do this once or twice as an exclusion, it may turn into a habit.

 

Or it may not. Maybe in your area this problem is rampant, but not in mine. Occasionally I'll see a 'forgot pen' log but 99% of the time people are signing the physical log. In fact, when I've checked my physical logs, I usually find *more* signatures on the physical log than there are online logs.

 

I've had a "prospective member" or two cache with me, & they like to sign as part of the experience.

[+wmpastor]

[quote name='The_Incredibles_' timestamp='1360047078' post='5202593'

 

A forgotten pen is definitely my own problem (as a cache hunter) and I won't bother anyone with explanations, requests, questions, etc.

 

 

Be inventive. I once signed a log by pressing my thumbnail against a wide blade of grass!

[+-CJ-]

The way I see it, this is geocaching, not geologging. The object is to find the cache and signing the log is merely is proof that you did. So if someone can't sign the log because the cache is frozen in place, it's too wet to sign, he forgot his pen, or whatever; a photo or his word (assuming there is no good reason for me not to trust it) are proof enough for me.

 

...as a cache owner. But as a cache hunter I most probably won't log a cache as found if I failed to sign its logbook e.g. because it was too wet and I didn't take care even to put a sheet of paper inside. I also won't ask a CO for permission to log his/her cache as found in such circumstances. Yes, it's not geologging, and it's not for numbers.

[+CanadianRockies]

The way I see it, this is geocaching, not geologging. The object is to find the cache and signing the log is merely is proof that you did. So if someone can't sign the log because the cache is frozen in place, it's too wet to sign, he forgot his pen, or whatever; a photo or his word (assuming there is no good reason for me not to trust it) are proof enough for me.

...as a cache owner. But as a cache hunter I most probably won't log a cache as found if I failed to sign its logbook e.g. because it was too wet and I didn't take care even to put a sheet of paper inside. I also won't ask a CO for permission to log his/her cache as found in such circumstances. Yes, it's not geologging, and it's not for numbers.

+1

[+L0ne.R]

The way I see it, this is geocaching, not geologging. The object is to find the cache and signing the log is merely is proof that you did. So if someone can't sign the log because the cache is frozen in place, it's too wet to sign, he forgot his pen, or whatever; a photo or his word (assuming there is no good reason for me not to trust it) are proof enough for me.

 

...as a cache owner. But as a cache hunter I most probably won't log a cache as found if I failed to sign its logbook e.g. because it was too wet and I didn't take care even to put a sheet of paper inside. I also won't ask a CO for permission to log his/her cache as found in such circumstances. Yes, it's not geologging, and it's not for numbers.

 

That's an admirable personal choice. As a CO I wouldn't want someone trying to force open one of our caches if they are numbers-oriented and feel it's not a smiley unless they sign the log. I'd much rather they took a photo or leave an online log about the frozen condition and claimed their smiley.

Edited February 5, 2013 by L0ne R

[+redsox_mark]

 

...as a cache owner. But as a cache hunter I most probably won't log a cache as found if I failed to sign its logbook e.g. because it was too wet and I didn't take care even to put a sheet of paper inside. I also won't ask a CO for permission to log his/her cache as found in such circumstances. Yes, it's not geologging, and it's not for numbers.

 

That is fine as a personal choice.

 

For me, it's not about the numbers. (I've done it 3 or 4 times in ~3000 finds, it makes little difference to my numbers). It is about logging what I feel is most appropriate. If I had my hands on the cache - and was sure it was the cache (e.g. labeled on the outside, confirmed by the owner it is not a decoy etc) but it was frozen shut and could not be opened - then to me found it seems the most appropriate log.

 

But I understand to others, found it must include signing the log, no exceptions.

[+ArtieD]

For the first point (must sign the log): my personal view is use the log which I think best describes my experience. In a case like this (with cache owners agreement), I would log it as a find. I did find it; the frozen lid was a "technicality". I would take a photo and offer that to the owner as evidence. If the owner takes the view that you MUST sign the log in all cases, I would accept that.

 

If you can't open the container because it's a deliberately sneaky container (e.g. a cryptex, Chinese box puzzle) then that's part of the cache and failing to open it should be a DNF. If you can't open it because it's frozen solid then go ahead and log it as found, I'm sure the owner would prefer you to do so rather than risk breaking it by forcing it open.

 

I agree with these folks. Certain exceptions can be made. For instance, I was out caching with some buddies and we found this cache that was completely iced shut. We could not budge the lid to save our souls. We sent an email to the cache owner describing the container and why we couldn't open it. He emailed back and gave us full blessings to log the find and with that we did. We didn't log anything until we got confirmation. Personally, I think it all boils down to what the cache owner thinks is appropriate, so those are the guidelines that should be used.

[+-CJ-]

That is fine as a personal choice.

 

As The_Incredibles said above, it's area specific. I think I should keep in mind what example I may give to newbies. We have not many geocachers over here. Any decision may matter. Or not. I cannot be sure about that. DNF seems to be the most neutral choice with a frozen container.

[+Legochugglers]

That is fine as a personal choice.

 

As The_Incredibles said above, it's area specific. I think I should keep in mind what example I may give to newbies. We have not many geocachers over here. Any decision may matter. Or not. I cannot be sure about that. DNF seems to be the most neutral choice with a frozen container.

I wouldn't use DNF because this misrepresents the situation as you definitely did find it.