Make Caches in State/National Parks/Monuments open to all

[+peripateticCyclist]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

[+Shaved Ewok]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

 

The owner may have made the caches members only to limit the impact Cachers would have on the environment so that the cache could remain in the park. Many parks state/ national parks do not allow any caches due to the environmental damage they can cause.

[+WRASTRO]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

I am not sure I understand whatever point it is you are trying to make. Do you mean that caches in the areas mentioned should not be able to be set as premium member only? Other than that minor item, anyone with an account on GC.com can see any cache listed there. Color me confused.

[+GrateBear]

I've started making my caches premium members only as several have mysteriously disappeared.

[+niraD]

I don't see why Groundspeak should create special PMO rules for certain parks.

 

If the land managers don't want PMO caches in their parks or open spaces, then that's up to the land managers. Groundspeak shouldn't interfere. Likewise, if the land managers don't want non-PMO caches in their parks or open spaces, then that's up to the land managers. Groundspeak still shouldn't interfere.

[+Sol seaker]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

 

We thank you for your opinion.

 

Other opinions may (and do) vary.

[4wheelin_fool]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

 

There currently are no caches viewable by everyone. Even yours. You must sign up by providing an e-mail address to have the location viewable. Previously they were viewable to everyone on the internet, but not now.

 

In addition this is not a publicly owned site, nor should it be. I suppose GPS units should be provided to the general public for free also? It's pretty much the same thing. I suppose that if the cheaper units were already free, there would be those people that would want all the features free as well.

 

To have the caches in parks available to everyone, they must be listed on a public bulletin board or publicly produced literature, and give non GPS letterbox type clues to find them. Some would be too difficult, so the terrain and difficulty would have to be 1/1.

 

Good luck!

Edited July 9, 2012 by 4wheelin_fool

[+OZ2CPU]

>There currently are no caches viewable by everyone. Even yours. You must sign up by providing an e-mail address to have the

>location viewable. Previously they were viewable to everyone on the internet, but not now.

 

that is PERFECT !!

if anyone wants to know where a cache is located,

then sign in, even small kids can do this, and it is free,

park rangers are smart, they know the internet too..

 

I am happy my caches dont just pop up on all maps or pages out there,

if they did, I will be affraight they be ruined, and I PM-only them..

so far I dont own any PM-only cache, since I think it should be open and free to anyone.

Edited July 9, 2012 by OZ2CPU

[+Isonzo Karst]

I don't see why Groundspeak should create special PMO rules for certain parks.

 

If the land managers don't want PMO caches in their parks or open spaces, then that's up to the land managers....Likewise, if the land managers don't want non-PMO caches in their parks or open spaces, then that's up to the land managers. Groundspeak still shouldn't interfere.

 

Agreeing with niraD.

 

Why would only certain public lands have special rules? There many public lands maintained by tax-payer dollars being used for geocaching - road right-of-ways, for example, probably host the largest total numbers of caches in the US.

 

In Florida, there are land managers placing PMO caches, and I'm aware of one land manager that forbids them.

[+Vater_Araignee]

GPSRs should be free.

High speed internet should be free in every home with a minimum dedicated 30mbsp bandwidth per computer.

All parks should be free.

All caches should be free.

All COs should show up at their caches to point out exactly where it is at.

 

All because 25¢ out of every $100 in taxes I pay goes to the national parks.

 

 

[Keystone]

As part of its geocaching regulations, the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources prohibits "premium member only" caches in PA State Parks. The volunteer cache reviewers check for this as part of the review process.

 

If you would like other land managers to follow a similar policy, you would need to work with the land manager.

[Mr.Yuck]

As part of its geocaching regulations, the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources prohibits "premium member only" caches in PA State Parks. The volunteer cache reviewers check for this as part of the review process.

 

If you would like other land managers to follow a similar policy, you would need to work with the land manager.

 

Living in an adjacent State to Pa. I have seen that policy. Always thought it was kind of strange they went out of their way to state that. This could go the other way, and park managers could ask for caches to be designated Premium Member only to decrease impact on the environment. I'll bet someone comes along with an example of that.

 

Well, Portland Oregon has been discussed before as having a crazy number of Premium Member Only caches, much higher than the "national average" (not that anyone has ever really calculated the national average). I remember looking at the maps, and finding several CO's with 60, 70, 80, 100 hides where every single hide was PMO. So I'd start with combatting the "PMO just because we can" or "because all of (usernames) caches are PMO, so I did it too" mentaility that appears to exist.

[+Vater_Araignee]

 

Well, Portland Oregon has been discussed before as having a crazy number of Premium Member Only caches, much higher than the "national average" (not that anyone has ever really calculated the national average).

That would be fun.

07-08-12

Michigan

26967 caches 0.27snip caches per square mile.

25478 ATAU %94.47snip

1489 PMOC %5.52snip

 

Unfortunately I only have the boundary coords for 3 state parks and 1 national in Michigan.

[knowschad]

Actually, even non-PM caches in State/National Parks/Monuments are NOT open to all. They are only open to those that pay the park entrance fee.

[+SwineFlew]

 

Well, Portland Oregon has been discussed before as having a crazy number of Premium Member Only caches, much higher than the "national average" (not that anyone has ever really calculated the national average). I remember looking at the maps, and finding several CO's with 60, 70, 80, 100 hides where every single hide was PMO. So I'd start with combatting the "PMO just because we can" or "because all of (usernames) caches are PMO, so I did it too" mentaility that appears to exist.

 

Since I live in Oregon and I am aware of this. Its not just in Portland but Eugene/Springfield area as well.

 

As this point of writing, 2991 caches are PMO in Oregon. Thats 10.1% of all the caches in Oregon. I got a database of all the caches in Oregon.

 

Here's a list of CO with 20 or more PMO caches in Oregon.

 

OwnerName	OwnerID 	Number 
Adventure Tours	4123651 	178 
teslerfam	3956908 	153 
Dragon's Passion 4 Caching	342971 	140 
geogold	442127 	109 
Rayvan43	2171491 	104 
MMmm!!	4969785 	86 
GEOSPAZ	159445 	73 
GeoMinions	2567519 	58 
Steve 'n' Nancy	809133 	52 
Geojeepnlove	1680825 	44 
SpicyD	4135001 	40 
DocDTA	3755282 	38 
teamlowtechtoo	3438791 	35 
The Gypsy Clan	4322895 	34 
Go_Coastal	275859 	33 
rebel502	2590227 	32 
The Iris Fan's Daughter	963494 	31 
kenny art	1411540 	30 
Beachguy	1648983 	30 
bigeddy	21808 	30 
Pablo Mac	237218 	30 
sparksnglades	3238409 	28 
Team Luvbassn	2215820 	25 
TMandSHAWN	2843848 	25 
4STER5FORGEO	1735896 	23 
POSTALPAUL	2172301 	22 
SparksSeekers	2478366 	21 
TSI!	4298257 	21 
icatstaci	2430559 	20

 

(note: 4STER5FORGEO got more PMO caches on the Washington side. It runs in the 100's)

[+TomToad]

Of course, anybody on geocaching.com is free to hide their own non-PMO caches as long as it doesn't violate geocaching nor landowner guidelines.

[+Michaelcycle]

As part of its geocaching regulations, the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources prohibits "premium member only" caches in PA State Parks. The volunteer cache reviewers check for this as part of the review process.

 

If you would like other land managers to follow a similar policy, you would need to work with the land manager.

 

Living in an adjacent State to Pa. I have seen that policy. Always thought it was kind of strange they went out of their way to state that. This could go the other way, and park managers could ask for caches to be designated Premium Member only to decrease impact on the environment. I'll bet someone comes along with an example of that.

 

Well, Portland Oregon has been discussed before as having a crazy number of Premium Member Only caches, much higher than the "national average" (not that anyone has ever really calculated the national average). I remember looking at the maps, and finding several CO's with 60, 70, 80, 100 hides where every single hide was PMO. So I'd start with combatting the "PMO just because we can" or "because all of (usernames) caches are PMO, so I did it too" mentaility that appears to exist.

 

From the PA DCNR website on why they do not allow PMOs in PA state Parks:

 

"The placement of a “Premium Member only Geocache” will not be permitted on State Park/State Forest lands. These caches require a monthly fee to access their coordinates and therefore make it impossible for the Department to monitor their locations."

 

So, it's all about the Benjamins!

I would have thought that the $25/cache that they charge for a permit would have covered the cost of a yearly Premium membership that could be shared by all the concerned land managers

 

OP, now you know that in some places it's not even free to hide 'em, let alone find 'em!

[knowschad]

As part of its geocaching regulations, the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources prohibits "premium member only" caches in PA State Parks. The volunteer cache reviewers check for this as part of the review process.

 

If you would like other land managers to follow a similar policy, you would need to work with the land manager.

 

Living in an adjacent State to Pa. I have seen that policy. Always thought it was kind of strange they went out of their way to state that. This could go the other way, and park managers could ask for caches to be designated Premium Member only to decrease impact on the environment. I'll bet someone comes along with an example of that.

 

Well, Portland Oregon has been discussed before as having a crazy number of Premium Member Only caches, much higher than the "national average" (not that anyone has ever really calculated the national average). I remember looking at the maps, and finding several CO's with 60, 70, 80, 100 hides where every single hide was PMO. So I'd start with combatting the "PMO just because we can" or "because all of (usernames) caches are PMO, so I did it too" mentaility that appears to exist.

 

From the PA DCNR website on why they do not allow PMOs in PA state Parks:

 

"The placement of a "Premium Member only Geocache" will not be permitted on State Park/State Forest lands. These caches require a monthly fee to access their coordinates and therefore make it impossible for the Department to monitor their locations."

 

So, it's all about the Benjamins!

I would have thought that the $25/cache that they charge for a permit would have covered the cost of a yearly Premium membership that could be shared by all the concerned land managers

 

OP, now you know that in some places it's not even free to hide 'em, let alone find 'em!

If that is their only justification, they can get a free Premium Membership from Groundspeak!

 

 

Official representatives of parks, land management organizations and law enforcement agencies are eligible for a free Premium Membership, which allows you to:

 

1. Identify geocaches currently placed in your region.
2. Receive instant notifications when new caches are published.
3. Communicate directly with geocachers and geocache owners.
4. Participate in the world of geocaching.

[+T.D.M.22]

should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

How do you know it's just members of this website that can view them? Did you check EVERY other geocaching website? Or do you mean PMO only caches? in which case there are backdoors that non PMs can still log the finds. What it comes down to is that there is no way a geocache can be accessible to EVERYONE. That would create the need for one website with no need to sign up, no PMO caches, no high difficulty caches, no puzzle caches, it would all just be LPC and guardrail caches. Geocaching is a game, and this website is privately owned, The only have to fallow the law, other than that they can do it how they want.

[AZcachemeister]

Actually, even non-PM caches in State/National Parks/Monuments are NOT open to all. They are only open to those that pay the park entrance fee.

 

Shouldn't cachers be allowed to enter for free to find the cache(s), if that is all they want to do?

 

Or perhaps the park people want to maximize the number of cachers lured in to pay the fee in order to find the cache(s)?

Nah, that couldn't be it.

[Keystone]

If that is their only justification, they can get a free Premium Membership from Groundspeak!

You shouldn't be surprised to hear that the Pennsylvania State Park officials were offered as many free Premium Memberships as they needed. They declined the offer, and the policy stands.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Actually, even non-PM caches in State/National Parks/Monuments are NOT open to all. They are only open to those that pay the park entrance fee.

 

Shouldn't cachers be allowed to enter for free to find the cache(s), if that is all they want to do?

 

 

A couple of years ago I was out caching for the day and saw that there was a cache in a small state park about 30 miles from home. I stopped at the kiosk and asked the kid working there if I could just go in for 15 minutes or so to find the geocache without paying the day use fee. He was fine with that. I found the cache, stopped at the kiosk and thanked him on the way out and was on my way.

[4wheelin_fool]

If that is their only justification, they can get a free Premium Membership from Groundspeak!

You shouldn't be surprised to hear that the Pennsylvania State Park officials were offered as many free Premium Memberships as they needed. They declined the offer, and the policy stands.

 

They probably don't want to appear on that pesky audit log.

[+The_Incredibles_]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

 

I don't understand your logic at all. Caches are put out by VOLUNTEERS from our community. Geocaches are NOT owned by government and have nothing to do with whether you pay your taxes or not.

 

If you don't understand why caches are sometimes premium member, there are many threads on this.

 

As for land managers, they are eligible for a free premium membership. Groundspeak is NOT trying to hide anything from them. AND if they had any concerns, logically, you would think they would want all caches to be premium-member only as this reduces environmental impact.

Edited July 11, 2012 by The_Incredibles_

[+WRASTRO]

If that is their only justification, they can get a free Premium Membership from Groundspeak!

You shouldn't be surprised to hear that the Pennsylvania State Park officials were offered as many free Premium Memberships as they needed. They declined the offer, and the policy stands.

 

They probably don't want to appear on that pesky audit log.

I would guess we should be happy the PA state park officials allow caches. Much better than the alternative. Hopefully the policy will evolve. Only my opinion from a place far from PA.

[+OZ2CPU]

>Or perhaps the park people want to maximize the number of cachers lured in to pay the fee in order to find the cache(s)?

> Nah, that couldn't be it.

 

hey that is a funny way to put it,

I do admit I payed entrance free to a few parks, JUST to find a few caches there,

if it was not for the caches, I am sure I would not have found my way in there..

 

But it is the same thing with many caches, one is located outside burgerking

and all my kids are suttently hungry and cry for a burger and ice,

I think burgerking is not sorry about that cache location :-)

[+CanadianRockies]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com.

I've never understood this type of logic. Your tax dollars also pay for the park vehicles, but do you complain when you're not allowed to drive those vehicles? Or spend the night in the park ranger's cabin?

[+Viajero Perdido]

There currently are no caches viewable by everyone. Even yours. You must sign up by providing an e-mail address to have the location viewable.

 

Not quite true. Have you forgotten the Geomate Jr or the Magellan eXplorist GC? Anyone can buy, borrow, or steal one of these units and have bazillions of cache coordinates. No sign-up required.

[+Manville Possum]

I just visited a National Park where most of the EarthCaches are PMO. There is no hope in this topic, it's been discussed too many times before here in different forums. Groundspeak will always allow a paying member to make their listings PMO for whatever reason they want to, valid or not. It's all about the membership fee.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

 

You should expand on this thought. It probably makes sense for the powers that be to only allow 1D/1T caches for the same reason. Of course the parks should be required to provide free GPSrs. Does that cover it? Oh, wait...how do we ensure everyone is able to use a GPSr that is to their liking?...that's a tough one. OK, I got it...there should be a law that everyone is required to own a GPSr if you can afford it. Then, those who can't can be reimbursed via funds collected from those who can but don't...some kind of fee tax. I think that works!...except for maybe those FTF logs which make some people sad that they don't have a FTF on their log. But that's an easy fix...we just increase the fee tax to those who can but don't so we can create a Dept. of FTF Oversight to ensure Groundspeak implements measures to delete logs containing any reference to finding the cache before anyone else. Done!...except for those folks who want to trade equal or up but are a little light in the swag bag...hmmmm

[+peripateticCyclist]

Actually, even non-PM caches in State/National Parks/Monuments are NOT open to all. They are only open to those that pay the park entrance fee.

[+peripateticCyclist]

That is if there is an entrance fee charged - which there generally, but not always is.

[+peripateticCyclist]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

 

The owner may have made the caches members only to limit the impact Cachers would have on the environment so that the cache could remain in the park. Many parks state/ national parks do not allow any caches due to the environmental damage they can cause.

[+peripateticCyclist]

I don't agree with that argument - that a cache is only viewable to Preferred Members to reduce environmental impact.

We shouldn't be placing signature required caches in the first place in sensitive areas to begin with if it means travelling off trail to sign a log. Most all parks/monuments have signs/policies that discourage or prohibit off trail travel, so why would cachers be thumbing their noses at those policies?

[+peripateticCyclist]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

 

We thank you for your opinion.

 

Other opinions may (and do) vary.

[+peripateticCyclist]

Don't they though...

[+peripateticCyclist]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

I am not sure I understand whatever point it is you are trying to make. Do you mean that caches in the areas mentioned should not be able to be set as premium member only? Other than that minor item, anyone with an account on GC.com can see any cache listed there. Color me confused.

[+peripateticCyclist]

Yep, why are there PMO only caches? And, why are they allowed in public parks. I fail to see why people are so enthralled with them.

[Mr.Yuck]

Yep, why are there PMO only caches? And, why are they allowed in public parks. I fail to see why people are so enthralled with them.

 

You are not the first person being a premium member yourself to express such sentiments. They were much more controversial in the old days, 2002 (when they came out), 2003, 2004, 2005 maybe. They've become quite accepted over the years. Often to the point where people questioning them are shouted down with rather nasty "the website costs money to run, pay up cheapskate" type comments.

 

Which of course doesn't address why there is such a "perk", and what does it have to do with supporting the website? What if there was no such thing as a PMO cache, and it wasn't one of the dozens of perks of a premium membership? No one has ever started a "why can't I get pocket queries with a free membership?" thread, or a "why can't I make a bookmark list with a free membership?" thread. It's all about the exclusion of not being able to see all the cache listings, in my opinion.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Mr.Yuck

[7rxc]

I think that since State and National Parks/Monuments are paid for by tax payer dollars and entry fees that all caches inside State and National Parks should be viewable by everyone - not just members of Groundspeak.com. If I were a park manager and found out that only a few people were able to see a cache in the park I managed I might just prohibit all caches.

And, I am a dues paying member who has placed several caches in one nearby monument which are accessible by all cachers.

As said many times before, there are no restrictions on finding and logging of PMO caches by non PMs. The only restriction is on viewing the cache pages. The only ones it makes near impossible to find are unknowns/mystery and some multis depending on how they are set up. I've logged 3 including an FTF, still haven't made it back to one that was in a flooding state of flow, and worked out many for practice or to prove the point. How close? My source of such things said .01 on the minutes portion of the latitude, long was bang on. That's better than my GPS will do on a good day! That was for one case, but most are as good, less than two metres.

 

All PMO does is turn it into a puzzle, which I think is the reason it's not done. Aside from the ones you NEED to read the page for information to proceed of course. Speaking of which, I've got a puzzle to solve...

 

Doug 7rxc