TB Prisons and Prisoners

[+Scubasonic]

Recently I visited a cache GC29KAA and took some of the TBs without leaving any. I received the following email from the cache owner

 

Hi,

 

You've recently found my cache "Bonnie's Busy TB Hotel", and there are only 3 Trackables in my cache when it originally had 10.... If you took more than you left could you please replace the Trackables that you took??

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

Thanks for Understanding,

 

TheSillyCacher

 

If I would have read th cache page before I went out I would have freed all the prisoners.

 

Scubasonic

[+bittsen]

Ignore the request or point them to a few threads about TB Prisons.

 

TB prisons are not a good idea for the TBs. It's like getting stuck at a 4 way stop and not being allowed to go until someone else comes up to the intersection. One could be stuck there for a LONG time.

 

I sure hope my TB(s) are never taken hostage like that.

[+BlueMoth]

I don't know how you educate people who own tb prisons. I found a prison out in Gresham, it had one tb, which I liberated. Oh, gee, I didn't have one to trade. Too bad.

 

I hope you find good caches to drop the tbs in. They must all be heaving a big sigh of relief.

[Andronicus]

...It's like getting stuck at a 4 way stop and not being allowed to go until someone else comes up to the intersection. One could be stuck there for a LONG time.

 

That is funny. There was an intersection on my way home that the light would only turn green when someone came up to the light from the other direction. When coming home at 2AM, I could have to wait a long time. I usualy just ran the Red.

 

Back on topic, I would have to try realy hard not to send that CO some nasty flame mail.

[+SwineFlew]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

[+Don_J]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

 

How is it an ALR? It doesn't mention online logging at all.

[jholly]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

 

I disagree. The CO did not say you could not log the cache if you took a TB without leaving a TB therefore it is not an ALR. Of course the easy way around this is to clean out the cache but don't log the cache, just the bugs.

[+SwineFlew]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

 

I disagree. The CO did not say you could not log the cache if you took a TB without leaving a TB therefore it is not an ALR. Of course the easy way around this is to clean out the cache but don't log the cache, just the bugs.

 

I was being sarcastic. My fault for not being clear.

[+osmodion]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

 

I disagree. The CO did not say you could not log the cache if you took a TB without leaving a TB therefore it is not an ALR. Of course the easy way around this is to clean out the cache but don't log the cache, just the bugs.

 

I'm going to be a nitpicker and claim it is an implied ALR that happens to only apply to some. Either way, a message like that would encourage me to accidentally take any remaining bugs if I should happen to be in the neighborhood. But that's just me

[+Don_J]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

 

I disagree. The CO did not say you could not log the cache if you took a TB without leaving a TB therefore it is not an ALR. Of course the easy way around this is to clean out the cache but don't log the cache, just the bugs.

 

I'm going to be a nitpicker and claim it is an implied ALR that happens to only apply to some. Either way, a message like that would encourage me to accidentally take any remaining bugs if I should happen to be in the neighborhood. But that's just me

 

What the heck is a "implied ALR"?

 

It's a travel bug prison. Any responsible cacher would initiate a jail break. The prison part of it has nothing to do with "Additional Logging Requirements".

[Keystone]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

Correct. A finder, like the OP, can bring this matter to the attention of the local reviewer and you will see the "Rules" disappear from the cache page.

[+SwineFlew]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

Correct. A finder, like the OP, can bring this matter to the attention of the local reviewer and you will see the "Rules" disappear from the cache page.

 

So u are saying any "rules" on the cache page is an "ALR" even it isnt a logging requirement rule?

[+RandomH3ro]

sorry for the ???

 

but what is "ALR"

[+SwineFlew]

sorry for the ???

 

but what is "ALR"

 

"Added Logging Requirement" or "Additional Logging Requirement."

[+niraD]

"Added Logging Requirement" or "Additional Logging Requirement."

or, if it's optional, and ALR could be an Additional Logging Request.

 

If a request is an "optional and simple task", then the guidelines allow an ALR.

 

If it's a requirement (no longer optional), then the guidelines do not allow it. Presumably, Groundspeak might also object if it were optional, but no longer a simple task, but in practice, that is less likely to cause problems.

[+TerraViators]

I've never heard the term 'TB Prison' but I wouldn't want my TB stuck like that. I've never discovered a TB that had a mission to painfully slowly move from cache to cache or take permanent residence in a plastic peanut butter jar.

[+coralteach]

Ignore the request or point them to a few threads about TB Prisons.

 

TB prisons are not a good idea for the TBs. It's like getting stuck at a 4 way stop and not being allowed to go until someone else comes up to the intersection. One could be stuck there for a LONG time.

 

I sure hope my TB(s) are never taken hostage like that.

One of mine has been held hostage by a well-known cache owner, who, on his page, put something like, "You shouldn't keep a TB longer than 2 weeks". He's had my coin since the beginning of June. I think some TB hotels are good, but they can be iffy. I like to release my coins from a cache I have down the street. I rarely check it, but I have put coins in there, and they're gone so I'm assuming they're moving on.

[+Don_J]

Ignore the request or point them to a few threads about TB Prisons.

 

TB prisons are not a good idea for the TBs. It's like getting stuck at a 4 way stop and not being allowed to go until someone else comes up to the intersection. One could be stuck there for a LONG time.

 

I sure hope my TB(s) are never taken hostage like that.

One of mine has been held hostage by a well-known cache owner, who, on his page, put something like, "You shouldn't keep a TB longer than 2 weeks". He's had my coin since the beginning of June. I think some TB hotels are good, but they can be iffy. I like to release my coins from a cache I have down the street. I rarely check it, but I have put coins in there, and they're gone so I'm assuming they're moving on.

 

TB Hotels are fine. They do serve a purpose. It's when the hotel owners place restrictions on the trading of TBs that we have a problem. The fact of the matter is, if I spent $10 on a Geocoin and sent it out in the wild, a cache owner can not place trading restrictions on my coin, just because it is in his cache. The TB or coin is intended to travel, unrestricted. It's not intended to be traded one to one, such as normal swag. I have had a coin sit in a cache for 18 months while dozens of people logged the cache as found. None of them felt that it was appropriate to move my coin because they didn't have anything to trade for it.

[+Mezgrman]

I have had a coin sit in a cache for 18 months while dozens of people logged the cache as found. None of them felt that it was appropriate to move my coin because they didn't have anything to trade for it.

Now that's annoying...

[+Eartha]

TBs are not trade items. The goal of the Trackable supersedes the wishes of the cache owner. Move those bugs. If someone deletes your log for doing so, contact Groundspeak or your local reviewer about the cache.

[+ChileHead]

Whenever I see a cache that has a TB policy like that, I take all the prisoners out and place them in new homes.

[+Isonzo Karst]

If I got that email I'd forward it to contact@geocaching.com for their comment.

 

At least there's no threat of log deletion.

 

If the cache owner wants to keep the cache stocked with bugs, the cache owner should buy a bunch of travelers, and release them into the cache. The cache owner / bug owner could specify that each of those bugs/coins is to be treated as swag, ie, traded for - but that would ONLY apply to their owned items. When they were gone they'd need to restock with MORE of their owned "trade bug for bug" items (could get pricey!).

 

Any traveler in the cache that doesn't have that stipulation (all of them most likely) should be removed by the first cacher willing to move them.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Isonzo Karst

[+Prime Suspect]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

 

I disagree. The CO did not say you could not log the cache if you took a TB without leaving a TB therefore it is not an ALR. Of course the easy way around this is to clean out the cache but don't log the cache, just the bugs.

The Guidelines define an ALR as a "simple task". There is no need for a threat to delete logs, nor does a conditional task prevent it from being a task.

[+Prime Suspect]

TB Hotels are fine. They do serve a purpose.

Yes, they make it real easy for lots of bug to go missing at once.

[+malo mystery]

Sign up for TB-rescue and you can alert others to your TB being stuck and they might help move it on.

[+Scubasonic]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

Correct. A finder, like the OP, can bring this matter to the attention of the local reviewer and you will see the "Rules" disappear from the cache page.

 

Thanks I will do that

 

SS

[+Scubasonic]

Just checked as of 1:25 pm PST 8/15 the cache owner has taken out the rules and there is no requirement for a even swap for trackables on the cache page any longer, glad it was resolved all the bugs can breath easy now they are free to come and go as they please.

 

Scubasonic

[+BlueDeuce]

That's good. I'm glad the owner didn't just archive their cache.

[+Eartha]

Yay!

[+brodiebunch]

Travel Bugs are not swag.

 

They are meant to be move from cache to cache.

 

They are not meant to lanquish in a cache because the CO enjoys looking at the roster of TB's sitting in their cache.

 

Your only fault is that you did not take the other three Travel Bugs.

 

But as a TB owner, I am thanking you for that rescue

[+SwineFlew]

Just checked as of 1:25 pm PST 8/15 the cache owner has taken out the rules and there is no requirement for a even swap for trackables on the cache page any longer, glad it was resolved all the bugs can breath easy now they are free to come and go as they please.

 

Scubasonic

 

Yay!! Glad it went well.

[jholly]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

 

I disagree. The CO did not say you could not log the cache if you took a TB without leaving a TB therefore it is not an ALR. Of course the easy way around this is to clean out the cache but don't log the cache, just the bugs.

The Guidelines define an ALR as a "simple task". There is no need for a threat to delete logs, nor does a conditional task prevent it from being a task.

 

Okay, I'll take a demerit.

[+ShortyBond]

Wow, if i was the TB owner i'd throw a fit. I wouldn't allow it. The point is to keep our TB's moving!

[+ihorn]

I say plan a prison break anytime you come across this kind of prison. Never stand for this kind of stuff. If you trap my bug I will trap your cache.

[+BlueDeuce]

Now now, don't trash the cache. A little clarification with the cache owner usually takes care the the issue.

[+Walts Hunting]

I have had a coin sit in a cache for 18 months while dozens of people logged the cache as found. None of them felt that it was appropriate to move my coin because they didn't have anything to trade for it.

 

And how do you know that is the reason. I don't generally take Travelers except when going on or on a trip and have passed by hundreds of them. Not because I didn't have any to trade but because I rarely care to do it. I think you might find that the most common reason people leave them. Even passing so many by I still manage to move quite a number.

[+ShortyBond]

I have had a coin sit in a cache for 18 months while dozens of people logged the cache as found. None of them felt that it was appropriate to move my coin because they didn't have anything to trade for it.

 

And how do you know that is the reason. I don't generally take Travelers except when going on or on a trip and have passed by hundreds of them. Not because I didn't have any to trade but because I rarely care to do it. I think you might find that the most common reason people leave them. Even passing so many by I still manage to move quite a number.

 

Really?? Picking up trackables is one of my favorite things about caching! I have a hard time believing a lot of people pass them up for this reason, since so many i know love trackables. I think this person is a lot closer to the reasoning then just others not liking trackables.

[+Don_J]

I have had a coin sit in a cache for 18 months while dozens of people logged the cache as found. None of them felt that it was appropriate to move my coin because they didn't have anything to trade for it.

 

And how do you know that is the reason.

 

Because several mentioned it in their logs. They felt that they had to abide by the warden's rules. Since they did not have a traveler to trade, they simply left what was in the prison alone.

[+BlueDeuce]

I have had a coin sit in a cache for 18 months while dozens of people logged the cache as found. None of them felt that it was appropriate to move my coin because they didn't have anything to trade for it.

 

And how do you know that is the reason.

 

Because several mentioned it in their logs. They felt that they had to abide by the warden's rules. Since they did not have a traveler to trade, they simply left what was in the prison alone.

 

Don't you think after a year you would have said something?

[+Prime Suspect]

Wow, if i was the TB owner i'd throw a fit. I wouldn't allow it. The point is to keep our TB's moving!

I put a notice on my trackables in field, telling people they are free to ignore any trade restriction the cache owner may attempt to enforce. You can see an example here on Ben D. Guy, who's been traveling the world for over 7 years, and is closing in on the 30,000 mile mark.

[+ShortyBond]

Wow, if i was the TB owner i'd throw a fit. I wouldn't allow it. The point is to keep our TB's moving!

I put a notice on my trackables in field, telling people they are free to ignore any trade restriction the cache owner may attempt to enforce. You can see an example here on Ben D. Guy, who's been traveling the world for over 7 years, and is closing in on the 30,000 mile mark.

 

Great idea!! I will do that myself. Thank you!

[+DragonsWest]

On general principal I'd be alarmed to see one cache with 10 trackables sitting in it at the same time. If that cache were muggled, there's 10 trackables which are likely dead and gone to their owners.

 

I think something like that happened to my first GeoCoin. Someone dropped it in a TB hotel, which was noticed and the coin vanished, along with a few other trackables.

[Mr.Yuck]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

Correct. A finder, like the OP, can bring this matter to the attention of the local reviewer and you will see the "Rules" disappear from the cache page.

 

This is my first post as Mr.Yuck, after changing my username after 7 years. You can probably figure out who I am. And no, it's not Ashnikes.

 

OK, the TB prison in question was published this year, 2010. Why was this not noticed during the reviewing process? Why does something like this have to be brought to a reviewers attention after the fact? I could (but won't) post links to dozens of TB prisons published this year. Just do a keyword search for "TB Hotel" or "Travel Bug", and you'll see them. I know you guys are busy, but the list keeps growing: caches that are not handicap accessable being rated as 1 star terrain, Obvious nanos listed as other size or unknown size, worthless non-hints in the hint field (i.e. "no hint" or "none" in a field that tells you if you don't have one, leave it blank) and obvious TB Prisons. Why are these things not nipped in the bud up front? It seems like they are sometimes, and with certain reviewers, but it's very inconsistent.

[GOF's Sock Puppet]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

Correct. A finder, like the OP, can bring this matter to the attention of the local reviewer and you will see the "Rules" disappear from the cache page.

 

This is my first post as Mr.Yuck, after changing my username after 7 years. You can probably figure out who I am. And no, it's not Ashnikes.

 

OK, the TB prison in question was published this year, 2010. Why was this not noticed during the reviewing process? Why does something like this have to be brought to a reviewers attention after the fact? I could (but won't) post links to dozens of TB prisons published this year. Just do a keyword search for "TB Hotel" or "Travel Bug", and you'll see them. I know you guys are busy, but the list keeps growing: caches that are not handicap accessable being rated as 1 star terrain, Obvious nanos listed as other size or unknown size, worthless non-hints in the hint field (i.e. "no hint" or "none" in a field that tells you if you don't have one, leave it blank) and obvious TB Prisons. Why are these things not nipped in the bud up front? It seems like they are sometimes, and with certain reviewers, but it's very inconsistent.

 

You should have worn your dark glasses.

[jholly]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

Correct. A finder, like the OP, can bring this matter to the attention of the local reviewer and you will see the "Rules" disappear from the cache page.

 

This is my first post as Mr.Yuck, after changing my username after 7 years. You can probably figure out who I am. And no, it's not Ashnikes.

 

OK, the TB prison in question was published this year, 2010. Why was this not noticed during the reviewing process? Why does something like this have to be brought to a reviewers attention after the fact? I could (but won't) post links to dozens of TB prisons published this year. Just do a keyword search for "TB Hotel" or "Travel Bug", and you'll see them. I know you guys are busy, but the list keeps growing: caches that are not handicap accessable being rated as 1 star terrain, Obvious nanos listed as other size or unknown size, worthless non-hints in the hint field (i.e. "no hint" or "none" in a field that tells you if you don't have one, leave it blank) and obvious TB Prisons. Why are these things not nipped in the bud up front? It seems like they are sometimes, and with certain reviewers, but it's very inconsistent.

 

Because when the reviewer sees the page it is not on the page, or if it is on the page the reviewer tells the CO as long as the words are on the page it won't be published. Off they come. Soon as the page is published the page is edited to add those words back in. The reviewer is not aware of the change because they don't get notification of changed pages. Until someone drops a dime, or stages a prison break they will remain that way.

 

As for nanos being sized as other, I rather like that. I then know it probably is a nano and if I'm traveling or otherwise don't care to do nanos this is good indication.

 

As for the terrain 1 on non-wheelchair accessible caches, we have one local and I pointed that out to the CO. The response was that there are some folks that don't want to do the more difficult terrain caches so it was rated a terrain 1 "but I do have the no wheelchair attribute set". Good grief, a terrain 1.5 to difficult?

[jessejoe23]

I Love Grabbing Trackables.I take them and look at where they have been and their goals. If I can help them achieve the goal I do,otherwise I try to move them to a location where somone that may be able to help can get them.

[+ihorn]

Now now, don't trash the cache. A little clarification with the cache owner usually takes care the the issue.

 

I never said trash, I said trap. There is a difference between the two of them.

[AZcachemeister]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

Correct. A finder, like the OP, can bring this matter to the attention of the local reviewer and you will see the "Rules" disappear from the cache page.

 

I thought so.

Case closed.

[+BlueDeuce]

Now now, don't trash the cache. A little clarification with the cache owner usually takes care the the issue.

 

I never said trash, I said trap. There is a difference between the two of them.

 

Okay. Trapping a bug means you restrict the movement. What's trapping a cache, pray tell?

[+Scubasonic]

 

The Rules for this cache State "If you take a TB, then you HAVE to Leave a TB".

 

 

That alone is an ALR.

Correct. A finder, like the OP, can bring this matter to the attention of the local reviewer and you will see the "Rules" disappear from the cache page.

 

I thought so.

Case closed.

 

As it tuns out that is exactly what happened someone that saw the post reported it to the Reviewer that Published the cache and said reviewer sent the CO a nice little message and POOF the offending rules disappeared.

 

Scubasonic