Delays, Delays, Delays

[+rsfish1]

I think this is the first topic I have ever started on here. It's more of a question for the people having coins made and a little bit of a venting session.

 

There are several coins I have pre-ordered over 2 months ago that I still have not received. Of course with them being pre-sales, the money is out of our pocket all that time. And it's not just one company that these coins have been purchased from. All I keep hearing is troubles at the mint, delays at the mint, so on and so forth.

 

I guess my question is what's going on? Are there new mints that people are trying and they are not living up to the standards? Are some of the old mints having quality control issues? Are there really mint issues or is this just an excuse being used?

 

I know I have received coins from 2 different places that had serious issues and I had to send them back for refund/replacement. So I have seen some of the quality issues. But there just seem to be so many delays these days.

 

Now for the venting part. To the people we buy coins from, please keep us informed about delays. Some companies are very good about this. Others I wait patiently on and then email because you never seem to get any updates. And still others you go out to their websites and they have a message saying "these are delayed and should be in shortly". But that same message is up for weeks at a time and their is no date stamp when they put the message up. It would be nice to get more status updates. I would rather hear "there are no new updates or ETA" then to hear silence.

[+AtlantaGal]

This topic has been on my mind for quite some time. The length of time it's taking on some of these preorders is freaking rediculous.

 

Here are the worst offenders:

Cat Got Your Cache - Paid April 8th

Caching Time - Paid April 23rd

Dragonfly 2008 - Paid May 27th

 

All the rest of my preorder purchases are in June/July, with some having been shipped or slated for shipping next week.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Not to defend or offend anyone.

 

I know that China has slowed their factories down for the Olympics.

It was something to do with air quality.

 

I am sure there are as many reasons as there is geocachers but I agree with your statement about letting people know where things are.

 

I have always had very good luck with pre-orders so I really have no experiences to go by.

[+rsfish1]

I doubt I would be offended by anyone defending the coin makers. But Atlanta Gal has mentioned a couple of the same ones I have been wondering about. It gets frustrating wondering what is going on and it would be nice to know why things are happening the way they are. And as I have read in many other posts, communication is the key to having a good business relationship as well as personal relationships. I am just hoping some coiners will take this as a constructive criticism and step up with a little better communication and let us know what frustrations they are running in to so I can understand a little better as to what they are going through.

 

But when a website states for 2 months that coin ABC should be in on June 14th for shipping and here it is a month later, they have had my money for over 2 months, and there are still no updates, I would like to know what is going on.

[+Dr. Whoever]

Again I'll comment on this subject.

I personally haven't had the "delays" that some are having. When I place an order it has the same turn around time as orders placed months ago.

I strongly think it is that same old thing as I have mentioned before. These pre-orders are people who either do not have the money up front to pay for the minting and need you to fund it or are not willing to make a commitment to a certain number of coins and want less risk.

Both reasons are not GOOD BUSINESS in my book. If I pay I want it sent and I want to know the quality of the final product (Not Just a SAMPLE). If when you walk into a store to get something advertised and were told it has been delayed or we can pre-order you one, would you be pleased? NO you wouldn't! But, so many people are still supporting this trend of SAFETY. Lemme ask this then. Where is the BUSINESS risk? Hmmmm, I'd be nervous about this.

[+gardengorilla]

This topic has been on my mind for quite some time. The length of time it's taking on some of these preorders is freaking rediculous.

 

Here are the worst offenders:

Cat Got Your Cache - Paid April 8th

Caching Time - Paid April 23rd

Dragonfly 2008 - Paid May 27th

 

All the rest of my preorder purchases are in June/July, with some having been shipped or slated for shipping next week.

 

yes, I am waiting for two of those and getting really nervous. I really hope they get here before our move to Australia. I thought there would be enough time when I ordered them but now I don't know.

[+creacher]

I agree that pre-orders seem to be taking longer and longer and that as customers we seem to receive less and less information regarding these delays.

 

Is it too much to ask from the companies selling these coins to send out email broadcasts (or put up info on their site) explaining the delays, the nature of them, the expected time of the delay, etc?

 

Maybe it is just me, but I like to know these things and when it comes to delays, there is no such thing as "too much information" in my book.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but when order delays occur, an informed customer is almost always a much happier customer.

[+Sunrayers]

I know that I have requested information about a particular coin both in this forum and on their website and received no response. They have a statement on their contact page that due to receiving over 2000 "spam" emails a day, they may not respond to inquiries! They've had quite a tidy sum of my money for 2 months and, at the very least, owe me an update on when I may expect delivery on items that I paid for in Good Faith!!

[avroair]

In my experience, the mint is taking 3 weeks to do coins ~ other than big projects like the 080808 event coins (which is taking longer due to the size and variety of the minting) ~ taking 3 months is a problem with the vendor, not the mint.

 

I do art directing for a living and I have noticed in my profession that some people are better at giving clear and concise instructions to illustrators than others... logically, this would extend to coin vendors... maybe some have a harder time expressing what they want than others.

[+ThirstyMick]

I do art directing for a living and I have noticed in my profession that some people are better at giving clear and concise instructions to illustrators than others... logically, this would extend to coin vendors... maybe some have a harder time expressing what they want than others.

 

complicated designs with a bazillion layers might be harder to convey also

 

but I'm not sure about why a re-mint would take so long?!

 

Again I'll comment on this subject.

I personally haven't had the "delays" that some are having. When I place an order it has the same turn around time as orders placed months ago.

I strongly think it is that same old thing as I have mentioned before. These pre-orders are people who either do not have the money up front to pay for the minting and need you to fund it or are not willing to make a commitment to a certain number of coins and want less risk.

Both reasons are not GOOD BUSINESS in my book. If I pay I want it sent and I want to know the quality of the final product (Not Just a SAMPLE). If when you walk into a store to get something advertised and were told it has been delayed or we can pre-order you one, would you be pleased? NO you wouldn't! But, so many people are still supporting this trend of SAFETY. Lemme ask this then. Where is the BUSINESS risk? Hmmmm, I'd be nervous about this.

I couldn't agree more.. I accepted presales a lot more when I was brand new and really excited about certain designs, but now seeing the word presale more often than not just makes me close the window. I can still be forgiving if it's an individual, but for someone who presents themself as a business to have a presale is pretty unacceptable to me.

 

I guess there is a lot of crossover here in who's an individual and who's a business b/c many of the businesses started out as community members, but I think there's some sort of line where things change like.. when you make a website with a fancy logo you can still come in here and chat as an individual but when it comes to selling stuff you're a business now (not you at all CM, I'm talking to a generic "you")

 

I know of one I still get newsletters from that makes some lovely coins that I'll bet do sell pretty well, but since they've switched to primarily pre-sale's I haven't bothered to even look at. A year ago it would have eaten away at me and I'd have caved and gotten the ones I liked but now that half my apartment is filled with coins it's just "meh, pre-sale. next thread (or email)" I'm learning to accept that I just won't get to have certain coins.

[+mousekakat]

I think that some vendors handle presales MUCH better and reliably than others.

 

For example, there are some vendors here who have a record for late presales, but others who are very reliable.

 

I don't want this to turn into one of those "which vendors do we use" thread... or...

 

For example, as far as I know, the Atwels have done presales and never been late... or at least very, very rarely. Same with Tsun, she's done presales, and although she's run into the occasional problem, she's very, very prompt about letting people know and when they get to her, she gets them out fast!

 

I'm not going to "say" the vendors who seem to have a less than stellar reputation, but there are coins that have taken quite a while to get out, if they EVER get out, that were done presale that some folks might want to list here, but I'm going to try to keep it positive If someone else wants to list the vendors who seem to have delays more often than not, then go for it!

 

Naomi

[+tsunrisebey]

My thoughts: I agree that there isn't such a thing as "too much information," especially when it comes to people, their money and coins. Even if you have nothing new to report, just letting people know you are still arond and you care about their business is a plus in my book.

 

Remints should not take 2 to 3 months unless the die repeatedly breaks

 

I do think that with the impending Olympic Games, there is a slight delay. Large orders do take a bit longer to do. If you weren't aware, the workers individually inject each section of a coin with "color" by using needles. Although in my opinion it still doesn't excuse 3 months for a remint.

 

I also believe (and you may not agree which is fine) that if you are willing to fork over your money for a product that isn't even made, then you should be willing to accept some of the responsibility because you knew there was risk involved. Now, don't get me wrong.... I think if you're doing pre-sales with a large vendor such as Coins and Pins or Oakcoins where they have several employees working for them, 99.99% of the time you won't have to worry about not receiving what you paid for. However, if you are giving your money to small vendors such as myself and others for a pre-sale you are putting your money at risk. I'm using myself as an example here so no one can whine about bashing. If I had done a pre-sale on the V2 Earth Turtles, took your money and then either told you I had ordered the turtles, you had better hope #1. I'm not lying and on my way to Tahiti or #2. Nothing happens to me. Either way you'd be screwed Oh how I wish I were in the South Pacific right now with my cabana boys feeding me grapes and fanning me with palm fronds..... ok, back to reality. So what I'm saying is, there is much more risk with those of us who are 'mom and pop shops'.

 

I agree that if you can not afford to mint a coin, you shouldn't be minting it. There are just too many variables not in favor of the buyer when it comes to pre-sales (forking over your money before coins are in hands of vendor). What I don't understand is that there has been a pattern of behavior by certain vendors (late, no responses, no updates) yet when they come out with a coin for pre-sale, the majority still support the pre-sale. How many times do you need to be hit over the head with a rock? This bothers me because it effects all of us little vendors by eventually making customers wary of ordering from any small time vendor.

 

Like I said, the big-time vendors aren't so much a problem with the exception of communication at times. If you are in the business of selling, you have a responsibility to your customers, yes, life happens but you should have some sort of backup plan to let your customers know what's going on if you have their money.

 

Ok, I've rambled on enough

[+rsfish1]

Oh how I wish I were in the South Pacific right now with my cabana boys feeding me grapes and fanning me with palm fronds..... ok, back to reality.

 

Now there is an interesting picture. Cabana Boys wearing cowboy hats and boots serving you NUTELLA covered grapes.

 

Back on subject...I too was hoping to keep names of vendors out of this discussion and just hoping that we could hear from some of them on their own about what they are running in to. And to hopefully improve some of the communications from them.

 

I agree with several things that Castleman and Tsun have said above and I am starting to learn which vendors are reliable and which ones seem to have a lot of excuses. But since I have heard the same excuse about 6 times in 3 months, it gets me to wondering what's going on if anything on the mint side.

 

All of this will also help for when I go to get my first coin done. For those vendors that are having good luck with their minters, I know who I will be asking advise of to have as hassle free time as possible.

[+tsunrisebey]

Same with Tsun, she's done presales, and although she's run into the occasional problem, she's very, very prompt about letting people know and when they get to her, she gets them out fast!

 

Naomi

 

I only ever did 1 pre-sale (taking money and then submitting the order to the mint). Biggest mistake I ever made and I will NEVER do a pre-sale again. Since you used my name and brought it up, I'm going to use this as an example of what can happen I did a pre-sale for the remint of the Rainforest Jewel geocoins. The total ordered (off the top of my head) was about 900 coins. They were $10.25 a piece, so you do the math. The last day of pre-sales my paypal account gets locked because someone said something to paypal about me doing a pre-sale (which you are not suppose to do). So there sits all that money which I needed to transfer to the mint in China to pay for the coins and order tracking numbers, pay for shipping. I can not tell you how upset I was when this all happened. The ONLY thing that saved my arse and allowed me to get everyone their coins was I had a saving account with enough money to cover everything, had I not had that; well I don't even want to think about it. It took me jumping through ALOT of hoops before I cleared my account and was able to pay myself back. That is just one example of something that could happen to a small time vendor and if they don't have the money to cover the cost, you lose your money and no coins.

 

No pre-sales here I learned my lesson as a vendor and I don't need to be told more than once

 

The ETV2's are reservations and no one is out anything (but me) if something happens. So other than the previous example and the current remint, I've not been in the habit of pre-orders or pre-sales. I order the coins and then allow people to place their orders when I have the coin in hand.

 

me

[+BackBrakeBilly]

We just had the 2008 Tennessee Micro coins minted and it took only 18 days from artwork approvial to them being delivered to my door. We did a Preorder but I only collected the money aprox. a week to two before the coins arrived. We saw no slow down and were told by the mint that they are ready for the next one without any delays...

As far as the Preorder part goes, having to wait for 3 months is a problem that folks shouldn't have to deal with. Waiting a month on a coin is not a problem as long as someone tells you it will be that long. The folks that are doing these long overdue preorders should be a little more up front with their timetable, like I said, the mint told us their is no delay!

Just what we know from what we are told....

[+The Moop Along]

I honestly think that part of the problem was nailed a few posts up. Lots of folks can't help but pull the trigger. New Shiney and their money is sent. Knowing full well that pre-sales will always take a long time. How long? Well, that's vendor dependent and partly mint dependent.

 

But, I just pass on pre-sales. I can't even find the trigger most of the time. It's a recipe for disaster that should be avoided. The other part of pre-sales is that the customers allow them to perpetuate. If everyone hit the alarm button with paypal at the 29th or 44th day when they're merchandise is not in hand, it wouldn't take very many account freezes to get some attention. That doesn't happen because people are afraid to not get their coins. Boo hiss, you're part of the problem I don't care what disclaimer is on your website about "agree to these pre-sale terms, check this box". Paypal is still gonna lay the smack down on you if you don't deliver in time, and in today's market, it's a necessary evil to have your Paypal account open.

 

There's two pieces of copper for ya

 

TMA

 

sidenote: I think there is some policy with companies like VISA or Mastercard about pre-sales too, but I can't find it right now

[YemonYime]

I honestly think that part of the problem was nailed a few posts up. Lots of folks can't help but pull the trigger. New Shiney and their money is sent. Knowing full well that pre-sales will always take a long time. How long? Well, that's vendor dependent and partly mint dependent.

 

But, I just pass on pre-sales. I can't even find the trigger most of the time. It's a recipe for disaster that should be avoided. The other part of pre-sales is that the customers allow them to perpetuate. If everyone hit the alarm button with paypal at the 29th or 44th day when they're merchandise is not in hand, it wouldn't take very many account freezes to get some attention. That doesn't happen because people are afraid to not get their coins. Boo hiss, you're part of the problem I don't care what disclaimer is on your website about "agree to these pre-sale terms, check this box". Paypal is still gonna lay the smack down on you if you don't deliver in time, and in today's market, it's a necessary evil to have your Paypal account open.

 

There's two pieces of copper for ya

 

TMA

 

sidenote: I think there is some policy with companies like VISA or Mastercard about pre-sales too, but I can't find it right now

 

But...Moopy Baby? schMoopykinz? I'm gonna do a pre-sale for my v.2's later this year. Does that mean you won't love me anymore?

[+The Moop Along]

*snip*

 

But...Moopy Baby? schMoopykinz? I'm gonna do a pre-sale for my v.2's later this year. Does that mean you won't love me anymore?

 

You know schMoopykinz gets me every time . . . Sorry, I'm in, ooooh Shiney.

 

side note, your package should arrive ASAP. It mailed early this week.

 

TMA

[+AtwellFamily]

I got stuck with a number of cois after doing reservations. So I said I was going to do pre-sales. I have changed my mind because of all the issues that could go wrong with the mint. Therfore I did reservations for the Colorado 2008. They had an issue at the mint and the coins shipped a weeks late. I communicated the late orders and they are now in. I get home today and as long as the coins are good I will be invoices this weekend. No one is out any money until the coins are in my hand. I would not fell comfortable holding money from people for 3 months.

 

speaking to the point of delays. I have seen a few small delays but nother like 3 months not even a month. The delay in the Colorado was that I added a finish that was not first quoted and the finishing had to be changed slightly.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Atwell Family

[+studlyone]

We don't do pre-sales ourselves becuase of several reasons, most of which have already been mentioned in posts above. In reply to the OP we have not seen any delays in the mint we use and their productivity has and still is spot on. I can't comment on why some companies are experiencing these problems as I do not know their circumstances but so far we've not noticed any slow down or delays from China.

 

 

Communication is the key though if there are delays especially if you have customers who have paid upfront expecting their product on a certain date - its good business sense and common courtesy after all.

[+Droo]

As much as I disdain the practise of vendours requiring their customers pay for merchandise IN ADVANCE of even stocking it I loathe the practise of timed sales even more. Sure, it's exciting to keep your finger poised on the Refresh button and to get in and out before the item sells out. But to have a 5 minute window to purchase a coin at reasonable prices is hardly worth the disruption. It's like the Soviet bakeries of old..... long lines of people waiting for bread and when it finally came out of the oven only the front 10 people got their bread the rest had to get it on the black market as the black marketeers had bought out the rest.

 

So I don't know what's a worse business practise, availing your product to the greatest number or to the smallest knowing your merchandise was really being disseminated on the black market (Ebay). Personally I had to take stock and realize I've spent more money with the larger vendours doing pre-sales than those whose window of interesting products was only 20 minutes a month or less.

 

Still I don't understand the need for a pre-sale by a large vendour when the coins are still available on the shelves for weeks after delivery. Isn't that the complaint against Reservations, that too much stock is left over when reservations are cancelled? And by doing pre-sales doesn't it discourage customers checking back to see what's on the shelves? Just wondering.

[+AtwellFamily]

One other comment I would make is that if the samples have not been made it could take longer if the company gets those and then places the order and all that is completed after the pre-sales. 2-3 months could take to do all this.

[+rsfish1]

I appreciate the coin vendors that have stopped by and posted their experiences. I REALLY do want to know what you guys run in to when dealing with the mints. Making a change after seeing samples or adding a finish is something I had not thought of. I am not against pre-sales per se'. I have always been a person that communicates a lot, too much some people say. LOL And I am also a very curious person. I try to learn a little about everything.

 

I know it's still early in this thread, but I still have not heard anything that explains what is TRULY happening at the mints at this time that explains the latest delays. I hope my gut feeling is wrong that the "delays at the mint" are just excuses and not the real reasons.

[+The Moop Along]

I always go with my gut

[+AtwellFamily]

I appreciate the coin vendors that have stopped by and posted their experiences. I REALLY do want to know what you guys run in to when dealing with the mints. Making a change after seeing samples or adding a finish is something I had not thought of. I am not against pre-sales per se'. I have always been a person that communicates a lot, too much some people say. LOL And I am also a very curious person. I try to learn a little about everything.

 

I know it's still early in this thread, but I still have not heard anything that explains what is TRULY happening at the mints at this time that explains the latest delays. I hope my gut feeling is wrong that the "delays at the mint" are just excuses and not the real reasons.

I'll have to go back and look at my last few orders but I can't think of anything that delayed the mint except for the item I mentioned above. It really only slowed things down for a few days. The communication time back and forth.

[+tsunrisebey]

 

I know it's still early in this thread, but I still have not heard anything that explains what is TRULY happening at the mints at this time that explains the latest delays. I hope my gut feeling is wrong that the "delays at the mint" are just excuses and not the real reasons.

 

Vendors can only tell you what they have been told by the mints or what they know to be true going on in the lives of the Chinese. Olympics, earthquakes, new workers, die breakage, etc. If you really want to know the truth, you'll have to fly to China yourself and head inside one of the factories because no one here can give you the answer you are looking for, because none of us lives there or works there. The only other thing I can think of when I re-read what you wrote "...TRULY happening at the mints..." that you meant vendor instead of mint?

Edited July 11, 2008 by tsunrisebey

[+prntr1]

I honestly think that part of the problem was nailed a few posts up. Lots of folks can't help but pull the trigger. New Shiney and their money is sent. Knowing full well that pre-sales will always take a long time. How long? Well, that's vendor dependent and partly mint dependent.

 

But, I just pass on pre-sales. I can't even find the trigger most of the time. It's a recipe for disaster that should be avoided. The other part of pre-sales is that the customers allow them to perpetuate. If everyone hit the alarm button with paypal at the 29th or 44th day when they're merchandise is not in hand, it wouldn't take very many account freezes to get some attention. That doesn't happen because people are afraid to not get their coins. Boo hiss, you're part of the problem I don't care what disclaimer is on your website about "agree to these pre-sale terms, check this box". Paypal is still gonna lay the smack down on you if you don't deliver in time, and in today's market, it's a necessary evil to have your Paypal account open.

 

There's two pieces of copper for ya

 

TMA

 

sidenote: I think there is some policy with companies like VISA or Mastercard about pre-sales too, but I can't find it right now

 

Here is a presale that takes Visa and Mastercard

 

HOW TO FIND A GEOCOIN

[+9Key]

*snip*

 

But...Moopy Baby? schMoopykinz? I'm gonna do a pre-sale for my v.2's later this year. Does that mean you won't love me anymore?

 

You know schMoopykinz gets me every time . . . Sorry, I'm in, ooooh Shiney.

 

side note, your package should arrive ASAP. It mailed early this week.

 

TMA

This brings up a good point > it kinda depends who's doing the pre-sale. Is it someone that's well known in the community? A trusted member? Someone who has delivered on past sales and has a good track record.

[+Sileny Jizda]

We feel your pain. We've got some coins tied up with 'the mint' being blamed for the issues. It is frustrating.

[+LionsLair]

This topic has been on my mind for quite some time. The length of time it's taking on some of these preorders is freaking rediculous.

 

Here are the worst offenders:

Cat Got Your Cache - Paid April 8th

Caching Time - Paid April 23rd

Dragonfly 2008 - Paid May 27th

 

All the rest of my preorder purchases are in June/July, with some having been shipped or slated for shipping next week.

 

Looks like we are in the same boat. My orders were about those same dates as well.

 

At what point do we say enough is enough and call the vendor out in public forums and let the geocoin community know that making presale orders with them is not a wise idea because of the 3 month wait?

I'm sure there are a couple hundred folks that may be in this boat as well. For all I know they skipped town with no intention of fulfilling our orders.

I've vented about this before (about a month ago) and I'm still waiting. I won't ever have to wait again though, because as soon as I read the words"pre-sale" for any coin I see for sale now, I don't read any further. Shame on them the first time, shame on me the second.

I also agree that I think they are using the mint to hide behind and blame them for their short falls... just my 2 cents...

[avroair]

The last day of pre-sales my paypal account gets locked because someone said something to paypal about me doing a pre-sale (which you are not suppose to do).

 

Is that the case all the time?

[+maldar]

I'm doing my first coin and have samples enroute. For me I will be doing a Pre-Sale on this coin. I have no other option at this point as I cannot afford to pay it all up front and that I'm not 100% on the number of coins to have made. The number of coins I have made will be based on the pre-sales of the coins. I don't know if I would do reservations as I have done that with other things and had a hard time selling what people promised to purchase and never followed through. I have also been on the other end where I paid up front and had to wait longer than it should have taken to produce an item. If the mint comes back to me and says that there is a delay then I will post it here and on my website. I do hope in the future to not have presales, but at this time it is just a matter of fact for my situation.

 

maldar

[+maldar]

I do want to add that I also plan to charge less for the pre-sales, when the pre-sales end and I have coins in hand they will go up in price about $2. This is how I'm making up for taking people's money up-front. All pre-sales should be discounted.

 

maldar

[+whitebear]

I personally will order presales only if I trust the vendor.I DON'T LIKE THEM but if I really want the coin I will do it and wait it out. ....

 

As for my coins I won't sell them till I have confirmation they are shipped from the mint.

[+AtlantaGal]

This topic has been on my mind for quite some time. The length of time it's taking on some of these preorders is freaking rediculous.

 

Here are the worst offenders:

Cat Got Your Cache - Paid April 8th

Caching Time - Paid April 23rd

Dragonfly 2008 - Paid May 27th

 

All the rest of my preorder purchases are in June/July, with some having been shipped or slated for shipping next week.

 

Looks like we are in the same boat. My orders were about those same dates as well.

 

At what point do we say enough is enough and call the vendor out in public forums and let the geocoin community know that making presale orders with them is not a wise idea because of the 3 month wait?

I'm sure there are a couple hundred folks that may be in this boat as well. For all I know they skipped town with no intention of fulfilling our orders.

I've vented about this before (about a month ago) and I'm still waiting. I won't ever have to wait again though, because as soon as I read the words"pre-sale" for any coin I see for sale now, I don't read any further. Shame on them the first time, shame on me the second.

I also agree that I think they are using the mint to hide behind and blame them for their short falls... just my 2 cents...

 

I made a decision when making a recent presale purchase for those camera coins that come day #44, I'm filing a paypal claim from now on. I'm done with this BS.

[+MustangJoni]

This topic has been on my mind for quite some time. The length of time it's taking on some of these preorders is freaking rediculous.

 

Here are the worst offenders:

Cat Got Your Cache - Paid April 8th

Caching Time - Paid April 23rd

Dragonfly 2008 - Paid May 27th

 

All the rest of my preorder purchases are in June/July, with some having been shipped or slated for shipping next week.

 

Looks like we are in the same boat. My orders were about those same dates as well.

 

At what point do we say enough is enough and call the vendor out in public forums and let the geocoin community know that making presale orders with them is not a wise idea because of the 3 month wait?

I'm sure there are a couple hundred folks that may be in this boat as well. For all I know they skipped town with no intention of fulfilling our orders.

I've vented about this before (about a month ago) and I'm still waiting. I won't ever have to wait again though, because as soon as I read the words"pre-sale" for any coin I see for sale now, I don't read any further. Shame on them the first time, shame on me the second.

I also agree that I think they are using the mint to hide behind and blame them for their short falls... just my 2 cents...

 

I made a decision when making a recent presale purchase for those camera coins that come day #44, I'm filing a paypal claim from now on. I'm done with this BS.

I think that is a good idea.

 

I've done pre-sales in the past, and have structured them to make sure that I have them out within that 45 day window.

 

I'm on the fence regarding whether I'll ever do another. I know that I can do a sale, and deliver within 30 days, but will it sell? With so many bad stories about pre-sales, I'm really pondering my next steps.

[+studlyone]

The last day of pre-sales my paypal account gets locked because someone said something to paypal about me doing a pre-sale (which you are not suppose to do).

 

Is that the case all the time?

You can use Paypal for pre-sales subject to some stringent conditions - that it looks like most people are flouting. Here is an extract from the Paypal Acceptable Use Policy:

 

Q. Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

 

A. Pre-sale items are advertised for sale before the seller has the items. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public. Or, the seller uses the funds from the sale to purchase the item that has already been sold.

 

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis, only if the seller guarantees delivery within 20 days from the date of purchase and clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale. PayPal may apply additional conditions, such as proof of the seller's ability to successfully deliver the product: supplier information, purchase invoices, postal information or proof of delivery.

Anyone using paypal to accept payment for an item that won't be delivered within 20 days risks having their account frozen or closed and a hefty fine for breaching the AUP for receiving payments. Edited July 12, 2008 by studlyone

[+Droo]

 

Q. Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

 

A. Pre-sale items are advertised for sale before the seller has the items. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public. Or, the seller uses the funds from the sale to purchase the item that has already been sold.

 

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis, only if the seller guarantees delivery within 20 days from the date of purchase and clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale. PayPal may apply additional conditions, such as proof of the seller's ability to successfully deliver the product: supplier information, purchase invoices, postal information or proof of delivery.

Anyone using paypal to accept payment for an item that won't be delivered within 20 days risks having their account frozen or closed and a hefty fine for breaching the AUP for receiving payments.

 

It is my belief that people will not be accountable if they are not HELD ACCOUNTABLE. It only took one person dropping a dime on Tsun to get her account frozen and she's as reliable as they come. This particular vendour makes a habit of taking their sweet time in producing coins from pre-sales and yet nobody has complained to PayPal. Wassupwiddaat?

[+studlyone]

It is my belief that people will not be accountable if they are not HELD ACCOUNTABLE. It only took one person dropping a dime on Tsun to get her account frozen and she's as reliable as they come. This particular vendour makes a habit of taking their sweet time in producing coins from pre-sales and yet nobody has complained to PayPal. Wassupwiddaat?

Paypal will never know its a pre-sale unless someone blows the whistle on the coin maker. But once that happens then the coin maker doesn't have a leg to stand on if they are outside the 20 day limit.

 

I agree though that its hit and miss whether people bother reporting anything to paypal. Most people aren't aware of the AUP.

 

It seems that some people use it to stick a knife in the ribs of some of the reliable manufacturers but don't bother with those who are stretching the whole pre-order thing out.

Edited July 12, 2008 by studlyone

[+AtlantaGal]

 

Q. Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

 

A. Pre-sale items are advertised for sale before the seller has the items. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public. Or, the seller uses the funds from the sale to purchase the item that has already been sold.

 

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis, only if the seller guarantees delivery within 20 days from the date of purchase and clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale. PayPal may apply additional conditions, such as proof of the seller's ability to successfully deliver the product: supplier information, purchase invoices, postal information or proof of delivery.

Anyone using paypal to accept payment for an item that won't be delivered within 20 days risks having their account frozen or closed and a hefty fine for breaching the AUP for receiving payments.

 

It is my belief that people will not be accountable if they are not HELD ACCOUNTABLE. It only took one person dropping a dime on Tsun to get her account frozen and she's as reliable as they come. This particular vendour makes a habit of taking their sweet time in producing coins from pre-sales and yet nobody has complained to PayPal. Wassupwiddaat?

 

I've only ever done this once (eventhough I have been falsely accused on several occaisions) and that was nearly 2 years ago with a person who no longer geocaches, collects coins and who also ripped off a lot of people in these forums. I took more slack from people in these forums over that move than I care to ever remember.

 

I've been very tempted, but reluctant to do it again. All bets are off now though since I feel 44 days is more than a reasonable time frame to receive merchandise that I prepaid for, and it's also more than double the time PayPal allows.

 

Presales, in the capacity of what has been becoming common practice, should really be forbidden. I have always felt very strongly about this too.

[+tsunrisebey]

The last day of pre-sales my paypal account gets locked because someone said something to paypal about me doing a pre-sale (which you are not suppose to do).

 

Is that the case all the time?

You can use Paypal for pre-sales subject to some stringent conditions - that it looks like most people are flouting. Here is an extract from the Paypal Acceptable Use Policy:

 

Q. Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

 

A. Pre-sale items are advertised for sale before the seller has the items. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public. Or, the seller uses the funds from the sale to purchase the item that has already been sold.

 

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis, only if the seller guarantees delivery within 20 days from the date of purchase and clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale. PayPal may apply additional conditions, such as proof of the seller's ability to successfully deliver the product: supplier information, purchase invoices, postal information or proof of delivery.

Anyone using paypal to accept payment for an item that won't be delivered within 20 days risks having their account frozen or closed and a hefty fine for breaching the AUP for receiving payments.

 

 

Let me comment about what you just posted. Paypal does NOT take the time to ask/call/email you about your sales. Someone reports you, your account is locked. The burden of proof is on you to prove your shipping (you can throw that 20 days out the window). They will do their investigation and they don't care about some 20 day rule. When I got locked out of my account, I was on my last day of presales (on day 7).

 

Here is how it goes.

 

1. Email from paypal, "Your account has been limited." (or something close to that).

2. You open the email to find out that you can only accept money and refund money but you can't transfer your money.

3. There is no explanation why you've been limited in your acct. activities.

4. You call paypal and aks what in the H*LL is going on.

5. Paypal says they can't asnwer your questions because if they tell you "you can circumvent the system" YUP!

6. They give you some steps to follow and guarantee your account will go back to normal.

7. You follow the steps: Copy your invoices from the mint, copy a current bill with your addy, copy your drivers license and forward that to them.

8. They do a review and you clear that hurdle BUT your account is STILL locked.

9. You call paypal back and ask for a manager and say what the H*LL is going on.

10. Paypal tells you they can't tell you why you are being investigated but you only need to clear the next hurdles and then you account will be released.

11. Meanwhile 2 weeks has gone by and you get a survey request asking you how well they are handling their calls? By then you are thinking you can kiss my ...... fill out your own darned survey.

12. You go back to your account and your next hurdle is to provide tracking numbers for domestic and overseas packages (about 15 to 20) of them.

13. So you call paypal again and say what the H*LL? Since when do I need to have tracking numbers for all my packages. "It protects you ma'am" Whatever you say Mr. Paypal. You politely kiss the guys hiney because you want your freakin' money when you really wanna reach through the phone and squeeze his neck til his eyeballs pop out.

14. Then you think, CR*P, now I gotta fork over money to buying tracking numbers for all these people but Mr. paypal did say you could get people to write letters on your behalf that they got their packages. RIGHT!

15. You wait, stress, think nasty thoughts about paypal, wait some more, get more mad, kick the dog and then your coins arrive.

16. You ship everyone's stuff and get tracking numbers for everyone and you pay out the nose for those International packages.

17. You log onto paypal and copy all the tracking numbers down for them and you're still cursing them while you're typing the numbers.

18. You pray like H*LL that everyone gets their stuff and wonder how long you should wait before you call paypal to see what the hold up is.

19. You get an email about a week to 2 weeks later that your paypal account has been restored. You breath a huge sigh of relief, immediately transferring your money to your checking account so in case you get hosed again, your money is safe.

20. Or is it safe? You've done some reading while this nasty mess has been going on and you learn that the blood suckers at paypal can automatically take money from you listed account and you GASP! No way you say but you read the stories and you think HOLY SHEET!

21. You call up your bank and you put a block for 6 months on your account so money can never be taken from it by that company. You even ask the bank if it's possible that a company can do that and they CONFIRM it. You're like HOLY SHEET again.

22. Now everytime you get payment you rush to transfer your funds and you always worry about something going wrong.

23. Oh yeah the important part (after 2 and a half months of this BS): You make one last call to paypal and you've asked to talk to the manager and you pretend to be real nice and innocent. Cause HEY JACK*** is probably not gonna work. You ask him again what it is that you can do to keep from getting your account locked up because you don't want to make the same mistake twice. Mr.Paypal Manager tells you your account was limited because you did a presale and they are NOT allowed unless you ship your stuff within "X" amount of days. You pretend to be nice again and tell the nice man that you appreciate his time and thank you for all the help he gace you and that you won't do another presale again.

24. You hang up the phone and whisper, KISS MY ***.

25. You then get to thinking that they never even asked you anything, they just locked that baby up and made you jump through hoops. They hear presale and they will lock you up quicker than I can open a jar of nutella. TRUST ME, you'll be so puckered up by the end of all this you'll have nightmares everytime you see/hear the word paypal.

 

Well, I just realized that I may need therapy, I've got issues

[+ThePetersTrio]

Can I just say after reading tsun's last post how happy I am that I decided against doing a presale?

[+studlyone]

Let me comment about what you just posted. Paypal does NOT take the time to ask/call/email you about your sales. Someone reports you, your account is locked. The burden of proof is on you to prove your shipping (you can throw that 20 days out the window). They will do their investigation and they don't care about some 20 day rule. When I got locked out of my account, I was on my last day of presales (on day 7).

I do hope your post was for everyones benefit and not directed at me. All i did was copy their AUP from the site.

 

Paypal are well renowned for the heavy handed approach and lack of customer service. I guess your post should serve as a warning to anyone considering using them as a payment option for pre-sales. My heart goes out to you for having to go through all that.

Edited July 12, 2008 by studlyone

[+tsunrisebey]

Let me comment about what you just posted. Paypal does NOT take the time to ask/call/email you about your sales. Someone reports you, your account is locked. The burden of proof is on you to prove your shipping (you can throw that 20 days out the window). They will do their investigation and they don't care about some 20 day rule. When I got locked out of my account, I was on my last day of presales (on day 7).

I do hope your post was for everyones benefit and not directed at me. All i did was copy their AUP from the site.

 

Paypal are well renowned for the heavy handed approach and lack of customer service. I guess your post should serve as a warning to anyone considering using them as a payment option for pre-sales. My heart goes out to you for having to go through all that.

 

Yup, I wrote that whole long thing and it was directed at you I didn't even realize you were the one that posted the original paypal portion. I almost can't believe you asked that question, lol. I admit, I'm one of the meaner posters here on the threads. They've nickenamed me the "shark", I've got a razor sharp bite and always looking for my next victim. Nothing I like more than blooodbath of unsuspecting victims ..er I mean posters. Come on!!!!!!

[glennk721]

Here is how it goes.

 

1. Email from paypal, "Your account has been limited." (or something close to that).

2. You open the email to find out that you can only accept money and refund money but you can't transfer your money.

3. There is no explanation why you've been limited in your acct. activities.

4. You call paypal and aks what in the H*LL is going on.

5. Paypal says they can't asnwer your questions because if they tell you "you can circumvent the system" YUP!

6. They give you some steps to follow and guarantee your account will go back to normal.

7. You follow the steps: Copy your invoices from the mint, copy a current bill with your addy, copy your drivers license and forward that to them.

8. They do a review and you clear that hurdle BUT your account is STILL locked.

9. You call paypal back and ask for a manager and say what the H*LL is going on.

10. Paypal tells you they can't tell you why you are being investigated but you only need to clear the next hurdles and then you account will be released.

11. Meanwhile 2 weeks has gone by and you get a survey request asking you how well they are handling their calls? By then you are thinking you can kiss my ...... fill out your own darned survey.

12. You go back to your account and your next hurdle is to provide tracking numbers for domestic and overseas packages (about 15 to 20) of them.

13. So you call paypal again and say what the H*LL? Since when do I need to have tracking numbers for all my packages. "It protects you ma'am" Whatever you say Mr. Paypal. You politely kiss the guys hiney because you want your freakin' money when you really wanna reach through the phone and squeeze his neck til his eyeballs pop out.

14. Then you think, CR*P, now I gotta fork over money to buying tracking numbers for all these people but Mr. paypal did say you could get people to write letters on your behalf that they got their packages. RIGHT!

15. You wait, stress, think nasty thoughts about paypal, wait some more, get more mad, kick the dog and then your coins arrive.

16. You ship everyone's stuff and get tracking numbers for everyone and you pay out the nose for those International packages.

17. You log onto paypal and copy all the tracking numbers down for them and you're still cursing them while you're typing the numbers.

18. You pray like H*LL that everyone gets their stuff and wonder how long you should wait before you call paypal to see what the hold up is.

19. You get an email about a week to 2 weeks later that your paypal account has been restored. You breath a huge sigh of relief, immediately transferring your money to your checking account so in case you get hosed again, your money is safe.

20. Or is it safe? You've done some reading while this nasty mess has been going on and you learn that the blood suckers at paypal can automatically take money from you listed account and you GASP! No way you say but you read the stories and you think HOLY SHEET!

21. You call up your bank and you put a block for 6 months on your account so money can never be taken from it by that company. You even ask the bank if it's possible that a company can do that and they CONFIRM it. You're like HOLY SHEET again.

22. Now everytime you get payment you rush to transfer your funds and you always worry about something going wrong.

23. Oh yeah the important part (after 2 and a half months of this BS): You make one last call to paypal and you've asked to talk to the manager and you pretend to be real nice and innocent. Cause HEY JACK*** is probably not gonna work. You ask him again what it is that you can do to keep from getting your account locked up because you don't want to make the same mistake twice. Mr.Paypal Manager tells you your account was limited because you did a presale and they are NOT allowed unless you ship your stuff within "X" amount of days. You pretend to be nice again and tell the nice man that you appreciate his time and thank you for all the help he gace you and that you won't do another presale again.

24. You hang up the phone and whisper, KISS MY ***.

25. You then get to thinking that they never even asked you anything, they just locked that baby up and made you jump through hoops. They hear presale and they will lock you up quicker than I can open a jar of nutella. TRUST ME, you'll be so puckered up by the end of all this you'll have nightmares everytime you see/hear the word paypal.

 

Well, I just realized that I may need therapy, I've got issues

 

LMAO !! I am so sorry you went through this but thanks for the hilarious read and lesson learned through your agonising process ! I was in stitches reading through your misery

--

[+studlyone]

Yup, I wrote that whole long thing and it was directed at you

LOL I'm just an attention seeker. Honestly though your experiences with paypal just go to show everyone what they are really like. I've never known a company like them for bitng the hand that feeds them.

 

 

I hope the therapy goes well - you should ask if they will give you a discount if they can help you out with your geocoin addiction at the same time

[+maldar]

Below is a small part of PayPal's User Agreement. Read the last section I highlighted in bold.

 

11. Seller Protection Policy.

11.1 Benefits. The Seller Protection Policy, which applies only to Verified Business and Premier Accounts, reimburses sellers of certain types of goods who follow certain sound selling practices. If your transaction meets the qualification requirements for the Seller Protection Policy, PayPal will reimburse you for the amount of the Chargeback or Reversal and, if applicable, waive the Chargeback Fee.

 

11.2 Coverage. The Seller Protection Policy is limited to the following payout amounts per year for combined eligible Chargebacks and Reversals:

 

$5,000.00 USD

$6,500.00 CAD

€4,000.00 EUR

£3,250.00 GBP

¥550,000 JPY

$7,000.00 AUD

6,500.00 CHF

3,300.00 NOK

40,000.00 SEK

31,000.00 DKK

16,000.00 PLN

1,080,000 HUF

120,000.00 CZK

$8,100.00 SGD

$38,000.00 HKD

$7,700.00 NZD

$55,000.00 MXN

20,000.00 ILS

 

 

Please note that the combined annual total may not exceed the limit for any one currency.

 

A Chargeback is covered if it was due to non-receipt of merchandise, or an unauthorized payment. A Reversal is covered if it was due to an unauthorized payment. The Seller Protection Policy does not cover Claims for Significantly Not as Described or for non-receipt of merchandise, or sales of intangible goods, services, or licenses for digital content. PayPal Claims are not covered by the Seller Protection Policy. For more information on winning a PayPal Claim see the Buyer Protection Programs section of this agreement.

 

11.3 Qualification Requirements. In order to qualify for coverage under the Seller Protection Policy, you must meet the following requirements:

 

a) You must have a Verified Business or Verified Premier Account at the time of the transaction,

 

The transaction must be between a US, UK or Canadian buyer and a US, UK or Canadian seller,

 

c) The payment must be listed as Seller Protection Policy Eligible on the Transaction Details page, or cleared by PayPal through Payment Review,

 

d) You must accept a single payment from one PayPal Account for the purchase,

 

e) You must not charge a surcharge for accepting PayPal,

 

f) You must ship the purchased item to the address listed on the Transaction Details page,

 

g) You must ship the item to the buyer within 7 Days of receiving payment. Or, if you are selling a made-to-order or pre-ordered item on eBay, you must ship the item within the time-frame you specified in your eBay listing as long as the buyer agreed to the extended time-frame at the time of payment.

 

If you use eBay to do a pre-sale, and yes you can, see below, you have better protection as a seller. I don't think that a person will be able to get your account frozen if it is a presale on eBay and you are still within the 30 day period.

 

Pre-sale listings are those that describe items for sale that are not in the control or possession of the seller at the time of the listing. These listings generally consist of items that are sold in advance of a delivery date to the public.

 

eBay permits Pre-sale listings only on a limited basis. The seller must guarantee that the item will be available for shipping within 30 days from the date of purchase (i.e., the day the listing ends or the date the item is purchased from a store front listing). The seller must also clearly indicate within the listing the fact that the item is a pre-sale item with a delivery date that indicates the item will be shipped by the 30th day from the end date of the listing. Additionally, this text must be no less than the default font size of the eBay Sell-Your-Item form. Currently, the default font size is HTML font size 3.

 

Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

 

Listing cancellation

 

Limits on account privileges

 

Account suspension

 

Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings

 

Loss of PowerSeller status

 

I believe that 30 days is time enough to have the coins made and shipped. If you use ebay and someone says something you can fire back at PayPal and say that you are within the limits that are set. This is what I'm going to use for my pre-sales. If I get everything off the ground, maybe I will be able to have a regular merchant account and can avoid these issues.

 

maldar

[+Sileny Jizda]

Hmmm, sounds like some coins are going to need to be hitting mailboxes soon lest complaints get filed. I'd never known this had it not been posted here.

[+Butterfly_lady]

Let me see.......... checking my files.

 

Cat got your cache - paid 11 April. (I think this was a 2nd mint)

Claddagh Geocoin - paid 2 May - advised shipped this week.

Dragonfly, Pirate Treasure - paid 7 June - no advice, same order.

 

Worse thing was that I paid in USD at a time when the exchange rate was not as good as it was a month later.

Try converting $80 US over that time and there's enough variance for an extra coin.

So why did I do a pre-order? Because in the past they have been good to me. And it means that I am paying out of funds I have now.... not committing myself to spending in the future when conditions might change.

 

It really is hard to find a good balance..... but regretably a few slow pre-orders do reflect badly on the industry. It all comes down to a matter of trust. I don't think I would do a pre-order in the future from a newbie seller.

 

But I do understand why pre-orders happen - it must be hard to commit funds up front when designing and making a coin.... not knowing whether you end up with a whole bunch of unsold coins.

[+T"n"T]

I feel stuck in middle here because I see and feel both sides of this.

 

As a customer I have had times when oney was out waiting for pre-sales, yes some took much longer than I had hoped. It is frustrating when that happens and there are many reaasons why. On this end, I feel it is my job to decide who/what vendors I trust to get the coins and in what time frame.

 

Second hand, as a vendor, I pay for artwork(whenn needed), sample fees, die costs, shipping for samples, etc. well before pre-sales come up. Trying to make sure that things are progressing well.

When all is good and I am happy with the product I have gotten, then I will place a pre-sale. This allows for a few things, 1) it helps decide how many to order in the beginning of pre-sale, if pre-sale lasts for a few weeks, the coins are normally ordered the first week of it. Our mint is taking between 18-2? days now and has been fairly close to estimate on times. 2) helps us as the little guys to order the few extras to have on hand for the smaller events we plan on going to and to leave a few available for those after sale. Normally these are the RE's so pre-sales get first grab at LE's not made again.

 

I am hoping that if anyone feels they have not gotten responses from us about anything that they feel comfortable letting me know. ( Issues around Christmas to Valentine's time this year, I hope most people here understand and that I by myself are trying to make sure those don't happen now.) Except times like the next three days(at Cub Scout camp with quick_at_em) I try and return any e-mails within two days, normally same day.

 

We have a coin that was due around the 10th. I had a delay of a few days here, due to family medical issue, but got back on track quickly and coins should be here while I am gone and will ship Thurs/Fri. so a week behind. Again, if those are ones upsetting anyone I am sorry and have sent notices to all on our newletter lists.

 

Anyway,,, sorry for the rant,,, If it helps, we have not been able to do much ordering but the one I really wanted is on a delay too.