just B0B Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Pocket Caches are not cheating. They are perfectly acceptable and widely used. Please be careful with wild and inflamatory accusations of cheating and the like just because some play the game differently than you do. Pocket Caches are not Groundspeak-approved nor listed - most appear at events, some are hidden at the event, some are in people's pockets, some are on a table in plain view - regardless, they are allowed or denied solely at the whim of the event owner. Since the event owners, like cache owners, own the logs they can choose to allow geocachers to log the event multiple times, once for each pocket cache found, or not. This is in no way cheating. Provided the event owner allows them it's up to you as a cacher whether you log them or not... but it is not your right to call those of us who do cheaters. Pocket Caches are NOT moving caches and are not banned. In fact, unless Groundspeak drastically revises cahe and event ownership rules, they CAN'T be banned! As to the numbers hysteria, I rarely log caches online: I have logged less than one third of my finds in the last year or more, and I know many cachers that log only some of their finds, so all of the numbers-ho-related insults are seriously misguided. Ed Allow me to quickly point out, the "Pocket Caches" Ed refers to are different from the Pocket caches being discussed in this thread. The caches Ed is referring more closely align to temporary event caches and are in no way associated with active or archived GC approved caches. They are no more than a film canister or other small container with a log. The finds are logged against the Event page, by those who choose to. Others log a note or don't log at all. It is definitely a regional thing. Across the state line in DRAT19 country it is highly frowned on, along with logging other forms of temporary event caches. To be honest, logging pocket caches was what I was introduced to as a newbie. As I approached my 1000th find (probably 250 "Journey" caches, 750 micros - SUE ME), I rethought my position and purged my inventory of 50 or so "questionable or weak" finds. I did this purge strictly for my own satisfaction and confidence in my numbers. I did NOT do so to appear "BETTER" than anyone else and dang sure didn't do it because I was concerned about "Cheapening" someone else's statistics. Link to comment
+Recdiver Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Pocket Caches are not cheating. They are perfectly acceptable and widely used. ... Pocket Caches are NOT moving caches and are not banned. In fact, unless Groundspeak drastically revises cahe and event ownership rules, they CAN'T be banned! I think you will agree that they are either moving caches, temporary caches, or caches that have been moved since they were listed. Either way, they go against the guidelines and they should not be logged on GC.com. Therefore, in my mind, they are cheating. Yes! Call it what you will if it ain't within the guidelines then it shouldn't be done. Personally I'd like to see TPTB crack down on multiple logging of a cache and events as well. It is just a way to allow folks to circumvent the guidelines about temporary caches. If they want to have fun searching for the temp caches more power to them, they just shouldn’t expect to get a smiley for it. After all it is about the search and not the smiley correct? Link to comment
+Celticwulf Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I think it is great that some cachers wanted to showcase some of their caches, but me holding up an ammo can that I once used as a cache container does not mean the person I'm showing it to found the cache. I don't think anyone here has said that it is lame that cachers were showcasing their cool caches, just that people were logging finds on these as if they actually went out and found the cache. Just wanted to add: Even if they took this old cache and placed it in the woods with temp coordinates, that does not mean you found the original cache in the original spot, so why should you get a find on it?? OK, so what we've learned over the weekend (somewhat summary): Caches "moved" from original active coords to an event and logged online as find: BAD Caches "duplicated" from original and brought to event and longged online as find: BAD Arcived caches logged as finds at an event: marginally up in the air but so far most seem to feel BAD Bringing cool cache containers to show but not be logged: GREAT IDEA Bringing temp caches to hide to invite people to campsite but not be logged online: GREAT IDEA Temps hidden to "liven" up the experience at an event and not logged online: GREAT IDEA Temps/Pocket Caches/Monkey races logged online as a second "attended" log: still kinda up in the air (I'm on the side of bad) Event's held to have people get together and talk about geocaching: Always a GREAT IDEA So basically we're still left with the multi-logging event scenario as an issue that has not been decided for sure by TPTB, but the overall I think things HAVE been cleared up some, and perhaps a addendum to the FAQ may help point this out to newer cachers. I wanted to add one more thing about the logging finds on active caches that you've seen a duplicate of but not the real cache: what is the point? Let's think about this...we have geocaches that will only ever get very few finds due to the nature of the hide (think 5/5 caches where major equipment is needed ie the antarctica cache). Just because someone brings a duplicate of the cache to an event, why would you ever want this cache off your list of possible finds? Things have changed in travel so much that we now can actually have people find geocaches all over the world...who's to say that in 20 years that cache won't be easier to get. Why wouldn't you want to have that still as an option rather than a "thanks for the smiley" posted at an event? Heck, I'm of the hope that with the Iraq cache that brought forth all the problems that within 5 years it WOULD be as easily loggable by anyone with the same ease as myself logging one in Dublin Ireland (which I wanna do )...I just need the means to get there. Although it doesn't seem like an option now, why would you ever want to say you've been someplace and found something when you really haven't? If anyone can really explain that too me, I'm willing to listen. Celticwulf Link to comment
+NoLemon Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Yes! Call it what you will if it ain't within the guidelines then it shouldn't be done. Personally I'd like to see TPTB crack down on multiple logging of a cache and events as well. It is just a way to allow folks to circumvent the guidelines about temporary caches. If they want to have fun searching for the temp caches more power to them, they just shouldn’t expect to get a smiley for it. After all it is about the search and not the smiley correct? Amen. There is currently a cache listing guideline that states, to the effect "if you have mulitple activities at a gathering it is still considered one event and must be listed as such." Clearly the intent is one event - one log. Given that, it seems that the natural extension to the rule is to restrict event cache listings to only accept one "found/attended" log per cacher id. Link to comment
+Kit Fox Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 QUOTE(TheAlabamaRambler @ May 31 2006, 11:55 AM) Pocket Caches are not cheating. They are perfectly acceptable and widely used. ... Pocket Caches are NOT moving caches and are not banned. In fact, unless Groundspeak drastically revises cahe and event ownership rules, they CAN'T be banned! Sorry, the Boss has spoken! It's a disservice to call these pocket snot rags "pocket caches." I don't care about "the numbers" but I do care about folks who circumvent the features of the site in order to log someone's pocket lint. If these converted listings are reported they will be archived and locked. If after a warning folks continue to make them they will be banned. My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations. Link to comment
knowschad Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 (edited) Oh, who CARES? If someone wants to cheat at solitaire, let them. They're only fooling themselves. Doesn't bother me in the least what someone else's "score" is, or how they achieved it. This is not a competition... its recreation. Relax. Edited June 1, 2006 by knowschad Link to comment
+drat19 Posted May 31, 2006 Author Share Posted May 31, 2006 Pocket Caches are not cheating. They are perfectly acceptable and widely used. Please be careful with wild and inflamatory accusations of cheating and the like just because some play the game differently than you do. Pocket Caches are not Groundspeak-approved nor listed - most appear at events, some are hidden at the event, some are in people's pockets, some are on a table in plain view - regardless, they are allowed or denied solely at the whim of the event owner. Since the event owners, like cache owners, own the logs they can choose to allow geocachers to log the event multiple times, once for each pocket cache found, or not. This is in no way cheating. Provided the event owner allows them it's up to you as a cacher whether you log them or not... but it is not your right to call those of us who do cheaters. Pocket Caches are NOT moving caches and are not banned. In fact, unless Groundspeak drastically revises cahe and event ownership rules, they CAN'T be banned! As to the numbers hysteria, I rarely log caches online: I have logged less than one third of my finds in the last year or more, and I know many cachers that log only some of their finds, so all of the numbers-ho-related insults are seriously misguided. Ed Allow me to quickly point out, the "Pocket Caches" Ed refers to are different from the Pocket caches being discussed in this thread. The caches Ed is referring more closely align to temporary event caches and are in no way associated with active or archived GC approved caches. They are no more than a film canister or other small container with a log. The finds are logged against the Event page, by those who choose to. Others log a note or don't log at all. It is definitely a regional thing. Across the state line in DRAT19 country it is highly frowned on, along with logging other forms of temporary event caches. To be honest, logging pocket caches was what I was introduced to as a newbie. As I approached my 1000th find (probably 250 "Journey" caches, 750 micros - SUE ME), I rethought my position and purged my inventory of 50 or so "questionable or weak" finds. I did this purge strictly for my own satisfaction and confidence in my numbers. I did NOT do so to appear "BETTER" than anyone else and dang sure didn't do it because I was concerned about "Cheapening" someone else's statistics. Despite the fact that the TENOR of your post sounds like it's meant to be a direct personal attack against me (as opposed to a respectful difference of opinion), the spirit of the CONTENT of your post actually sounds pretty good to me. I read your post as follows: You DO care about your stats, you DO care about the integrity of those stats, and you DON'T care what anyone but yourself thinks of them. As long as we don't play the stat-comparision game (in which case my post-mid'04 comments would surely arise) (and I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you are to yours), I say seriously, non-sarcastically, and respectfully: CACHE ON. Link to comment
+Roland_oso Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations. Then why did we get rid of Virts and locationless? Some of the coolest places I found while doing virts and LC's. Link to comment
+Celticwulf Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations. Then why did we get rid of Virts and locationless? Some of the coolest places I found while doing virts and LC's. They are not gone, but they did not fit the definition of "geocache" which includes something you are finding that holds something such as a log book(hence the "cache" part of the name ). Because they did not fit that definition, a new site was created called "Waymarking" that, from what I understand, is still basically in beta version. Since it's a beta, it's still changing as time goes on, but currently that is where Virtuals and Locationless are now located. Same thing, different name. Celticwulf Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations. Then why did we get rid of Virts and locationless? Some of the coolest places I found while doing virts and LC's. More than 10,000 new places have been added to the Waymarking.com database since its launch last August. That's 9,900 virtual caches that wouldn't have been listed. I'll assume that a percentage of these places are "cool." So by launching Waymarking.com as the solution for the moratorium on locationless caches and the very strict guidelines for virtual caches, Groundspeak has vastly expanded the available opportunities to discover cool places. I would consider the observation off-topic, except for one thing: If it is the pursuit of a smiley on a virtual cache or locationless that is missed, then it's true... Waymarking is a separate system. What does that say? Link to comment
+TheAlabamaRambler Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 My point about stats being 'worthless' as a measure of a cacher is that there is no way to draw comparisons. I am handicapped and vastly prefer easy micros to traditionals on a trail. I am retired and can cache whenever I want. My numbers, then, mean nothing to an employed cacher who lives in a less cache-dense area... I can get more in a month than some can in a year just by taking a couple of weekend trips to Atlanta or Nashville. This being the case, I can't see how numbers can legitimately be used to measure or signify anything. And DRAT, we know each other better than that - I may not write well, but hope you trust that I certainly won't attack you regardless of whether we disagree! Ed Link to comment
+drat19 Posted May 31, 2006 Author Share Posted May 31, 2006 (edited) And DRAT, we know each other better than that - I may not write well, but hope you trust that I certainly won't attack you regardless of whether we disagree! Ed Re my "tenor of personal attack" comment: I was referring to Toids' post (his reply to yours, where he directly referenced me), not yours. (...and I presume you also read my post about you on the Record Run thread?) We (you and I, Ed) are good, and hopefully after he reads my reply, Toids and I are good, too. Edited May 31, 2006 by drat19 Link to comment
+CheshireFrog Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Sorry, the Boss has spoken! It's a disservice to call these pocket snot rags "pocket caches." I don't care about "the numbers" but I do care about folks who circumvent the features of the site in order to log someone's pocket lint. If these converted listings are reported they will be archived and locked. If after a warning folks continue to make them they will be banned. My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations. Jeremy was clearly talking about "converted" caches in that quote, not caches created for the event. Link to comment
+Lakebum Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations. Then why did we get rid of Virts and locationless? Some of the coolest places I found while doing virts and LC's. They are not gone, but they did not fit the definition of "geocache" which includes something you are finding that holds something such as a log book(hence the "cache" part of the name ). Because they did not fit that definition, a new site was created called "Waymarking" that, from what I understand, is still basically in beta version. Since it's a beta, it's still changing as time goes on, but currently that is where Virtuals and Locationless are now located. Same thing, different name. Celticwulf How does a pocket cache fit the definition of a "geocache"? Link to comment
+briansnat Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 By the way, the temp caches that I found at GW4 DID involve me punching coords into my GPSr, going out, finding the cache and signing the log. No one has a problem with you finding the caches. The issue is with logging the find on this website. The caches weren't listed on geocaching.com so why do you feel like you should log them on the website? If you have to log them on-line somewhere, how about trying to log them on one of the other listing sites? Yep. I never understood how people can have the gall to think its OK to use this website's server space to log finds for caches that are not listed here. Link to comment
just B0B Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Pocket Caches are not cheating. They are perfectly acceptable and widely used. Please be careful with wild and inflamatory accusations of cheating and the like just because some play the game differently than you do. Pocket Caches are not Groundspeak-approved nor listed - most appear at events, some are hidden at the event, some are in people's pockets, some are on a table in plain view - regardless, they are allowed or denied solely at the whim of the event owner. Since the event owners, like cache owners, own the logs they can choose to allow geocachers to log the event multiple times, once for each pocket cache found, or not. This is in no way cheating. Provided the event owner allows them it's up to you as a cacher whether you log them or not... but it is not your right to call those of us who do cheaters. Pocket Caches are NOT moving caches and are not banned. In fact, unless Groundspeak drastically revises cahe and event ownership rules, they CAN'T be banned! As to the numbers hysteria, I rarely log caches online: I have logged less than one third of my finds in the last year or more, and I know many cachers that log only some of their finds, so all of the numbers-ho-related insults are seriously misguided. Ed Allow me to quickly point out, the "Pocket Caches" Ed refers to are different from the Pocket caches being discussed in this thread. The caches Ed is referring more closely align to temporary event caches and are in no way associated with active or archived GC approved caches. They are no more than a film canister or other small container with a log. The finds are logged against the Event page, by those who choose to. Others log a note or don't log at all. It is definitely a regional thing. Across the state line in drat19 country it is highly frowned on, along with logging other forms of temporary event caches. To be honest, logging pocket caches was what I was introduced to as a newbie. As I approached my 1000th find (probably 250 "Journey" caches, 750 micros - SUE ME), I rethought my position and purged my inventory of 50 or so "questionable or weak" finds. I did this purge strictly for my own satisfaction and confidence in my numbers. I did NOT do so to appear "BETTER" than anyone else and dang sure didn't do it because I was concerned about "Cheapening" someone else's statistics. Despite the fact that the TENOR of your post sounds like it's meant to be a direct personal attack against me (as opposed to a respectful difference of opinion), the spirit of the CONTENT of your post actually sounds pretty good to me. I read your post as follows: You DO care about your stats, you DO care about the integrity of those stats, and you DON'T care what anyone but yourself thinks of them. As long as we don't play the stat-comparision game (in which case my post-mid'04 comments would surely arise) (and I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you are to yours), I say seriously, non-sarcastically, and respectfully: CACHE ON. No personal attack on you or any individual was intended! I would make the observation however, that standards of acceptable behavior vary by region, so comparing your accomplishments to those in other areas is like comparing apples to oranges. Allowing raw numbers to raise your blood pressure is just silly. I am sure your cache count (hell, I haven't looked, I don't even know what it is) represents more effort expended than my 1190 some odd finds. It also means that your journeys took you to many more noteable, remarkable and rewarding locations than the many WalMarts, Guardrails, Cracker Barrels, STOP signs and Cedar trees that I visited along the way. Wouldn't you think it silly of me if I were to resent your good fortune? For the record, until the guidelines dictate otherwise, I will continue to log temporary event caches as finds when that is the intent of the event owner. I tell you this so you can decrement your opinion of my cache count by whatever degree that makes you happy. As stated before, I am not going to lose any sleep over it (and really wish you wouldn't either). Don't get me wrong. I don't endorse the logging shennagans that some folks engaged in at the recent event. Activities and behaviors that violate the widely accepted interpretation of the GUIDELINES should be discouraged and frowned upon. As for CACHE ON, a new regular size cache (actually significantly larger than an ammo box) was listed near my neighborhood this morning as I was walking out the door for work. It is in the woods. On the side of a mountain. Off of the trail. Amid poison ivy, chiggers, ticks, amongst rocks known to harbor mountain rattlers. Luck for me it is only 600 feet or so from my front door, so I am going to go now and get it. I expect it will be just as much fun as the creative micro I found on the way home yesterday. If I develop a case of poison ivy, I am pretty sure it will not have been from the micro! Link to comment
+Tx_Secsy & Jeff Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 It looks to me like the people that are complaining just really don't understand temporary and/or pocket caches and have never had the great joy in participating in them. Its too bad that you'll never get to see the value in them because they were great fun! You MISSED IT! I still say the caches brought to the event for temporary caches and/or pocket caches were deemed valuable enough by the owner to bring them and I had great fun finding their caches whether I just had to introduce myself and sign the log or plug in coordinates to go find the cache and then sign the log. For that I thank you! If I would have known about then, I have one I would have brought, of course now they'd be archived, which is sad. I hope the ones that have been archived are at least relisted whether anyone logs them from GW4 or not. Moosiegirl, I know who you're talking about and that person's caches and wouldn't THAT be horrible if they were archived, they're like a Geocaching legend! Link to comment
+TeamAO Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 The sad thing is that this complaint has to be said. The fact of the matter is that if all geocachers excercised common sense, possibly all of the problems mentioned by the OP would have never arised. When I look at some cachers that have found thousands of caches, I have even took noticed one quit his/her job to go caching all the time. How healthy is it, to willingly (I' cannot confirm, but it sure sounded like it) give up a job to run around town writing your name on silly scraps of paper? It's a real shame altogether that people have to make a game that sounds like it used to be only about cool places, and turned it into a competition. My friends used to like to look for close caches, but they have looked around and saw the microspew, and have said, "Wanna go look a altoid tin in a dumpster and sign it?". I, myself, grew disgust because these same people called me everyday telling me they saw a cache online they just had to see for themselves because the location looked soooo cool. People throw around the phrase "Don't find them if you don't like them", but those same people are making it so the people who like to find good locations, harder and harder to do so. When I scan my area, if I had a cache search in 2003 for my local caches, they are all regular sized caches that are spread out, and all at locations that the owner described so well in the listing that, as a new cacher, I would have a blast doing. Now? Well, I've got a cache at Wal-Mart, a park n' grab park micro, a micro magneted to a bridge girder. I never see me, or my friends sitting around, reading a listing of a micro at Wal-Mart that says "In Parking lot, bring utensil." and ANYONE saying "That sounds so fun, let's go find that cache!" It's truly sad that caching has evolved, and all those people who said "Don't find them, if you don't like them" and say their way of caching doesn't effect mine, well it does. My style got hit by the tidal wave that is micros that have no reason of being placed besides there was an empty lampskirt. I'll keep on reading this thread, it has some good ideas in it. I do not see cachers using common sense for a while, possibly getting rid of statistics and using "ranks", as previously mentioned, so you know if DNF's are valid and such, but stats that everyone can see will inspire very dumb things of people. Link to comment
+VegasCacheHounds Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 It looks to me like the people that are complaining just really don't understand temporary and/or pocket caches and have never had the great joy in participating in them. Its too bad that you'll never get to see the value in them because they were great fun! You MISSED IT! I still say the caches brought to the event for temporary caches and/or pocket caches were deemed valuable enough by the owner to bring them and I had great fun finding their caches whether I just had to introduce myself and sign the log or plug in coordinates to go find the cache and then sign the log. For that I thank you! If I would have known about then, I have one I would have brought, of course now they'd be archived, which is sad. I hope the ones that have been archived are at least relisted whether anyone logs them from GW4 or not. Moosiegirl, I know who you're talking about and that person's caches and wouldn't THAT be horrible if they were archived, they're like a Geocaching legend! Oh, I believe you, it all sounds like great fun. However, if it was all such fun, why do you need to log a bogus find to validate that fun? Isn't just the act of participating good enough? I don't believe anyone said "hey, stop having pocket caches", I think what was said was "Hey, stop logging finds on caches that are not legit." Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 (edited) It looks to me like the people that are complaining just really don't understand temporary and/or pocket caches and have never had the great joy in participating in them. Its too bad that you'll never get to see the value in them because they were great fun! You MISSED IT! I still say the caches brought to the event for temporary caches and/or pocket caches were deemed valuable enough by the owner to bring them and I had great fun finding their caches whether I just had to introduce myself and sign the log or plug in coordinates to go find the cache and then sign the log. For that I thank you! If I would have known about then, I have one I would have brought, of course now they'd be archived, which is sad. I hope the ones that have been archived are at least relisted whether anyone logs them from GW4 or not. Moosiegirl, I know who you're talking about and that person's caches and wouldn't THAT be horrible if they were archived, they're like a Geocaching legend! There are plenty of people posting to this thread, myself included, who have seen plenty of pocket caches and temporary caches at events. I was at GW2 and GW3, among many other events. I think I may have logged a half dozen or so pocket caches or temporary caches in the course of forming my opinions. I even hosted a CITO event in 2003 where I encouraged people to log the three temporary caches as a reward for participating. Back then it was novel. I form my opinions based on what I see firsthand. With a couple thousand cache hunts over four years, I've seen quite a bit. Seeing pocket caches and temporary caches vs. logging them are two different things. But please don't insult me by saying that I don't understand, or never had the "great joy," of seeing these. I can easily achieve the great joy of finding a temporary cache. The joy is in the find, and the people I found it with. But under my current standards, I only attend an event once and log one smiley per cache page, and temporary caches and pocket caches don't have cache pages on this listing service. Edited May 31, 2006 by The Leprechauns Link to comment
+TeamAO Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 It looks to me like the people that are complaining just really don't understand temporary and/or pocket caches and have never had the great joy in participating in them. Its too bad that you'll never get to see the value in them because they were great fun! You MISSED IT! I still say the caches brought to the event for temporary caches and/or pocket caches were deemed valuable enough by the owner to bring them and I had great fun finding their caches whether I just had to introduce myself and sign the log or plug in coordinates to go find the cache and then sign the log. For that I thank you! If I would have known about then, I have one I would have brought, of course now they'd be archived, which is sad. I hope the ones that have been archived are at least relisted whether anyone logs them from GW4 or not. Moosiegirl, I know who you're talking about and that person's caches and wouldn't THAT be horrible if they were archived, they're like a Geocaching legend! Oh, I believe you, it all sounds like great fun. However, if it was all such fun, why do you need to log a bogus find to validate that fun? Isn't just the act of participating good enough? I don't believe anyone said "hey, stop having pocket caches", I think what was said was "Hey, stop logging finds on caches that are not legit." Well said!!! Link to comment
+VegasCacheHounds Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 (edited) To add to what I said and what Lep said, I've also been to events with temp caches, and I enjoyed them a lot, but I do not feel that my experience was in anyway cheapened by not being able to log them online. Edited May 31, 2006 by VegasCacheHounds Link to comment
+Miragee Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 It looks to me like the people that are complaining just really don't understand temporary and/or pocket caches and have never had the great joy in participating in them. Its too bad that you'll never get to see the value in them because they were great fun! You MISSED IT! I still say the caches brought to the event for temporary caches and/or pocket caches were deemed valuable enough by the owner to bring them and I had great fun finding their caches whether I just had to introduce myself and sign the log or plug in coordinates to go find the cache and then sign the log. For that I thank you! If I would have known about then, I have one I would have brought, of course now they'd be archived, which is sad. I hope the ones that have been archived are at least relisted whether anyone logs them from GW4 or not. Moosiegirl, I know who you're talking about and that person's caches and wouldn't THAT be horrible if they were archived, they're like a Geocaching legend! Oh, I believe you, it all sounds like great fun. However, if it was all such fun, why do you need to log a bogus find to validate that fun? Isn't just the act of participating good enough? I don't believe anyone said "hey, stop having pocket caches", I think what was said was "Hey, stop logging finds on caches that are not legit." Such a simple concept . . . Why can't these people grasp it? Link to comment
+VegasCacheHounds Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 It looks to me like the people that are complaining just really don't understand temporary and/or pocket caches and have never had the great joy in participating in them. Its too bad that you'll never get to see the value in them because they were great fun! You MISSED IT! I still say the caches brought to the event for temporary caches and/or pocket caches were deemed valuable enough by the owner to bring them and I had great fun finding their caches whether I just had to introduce myself and sign the log or plug in coordinates to go find the cache and then sign the log. For that I thank you! If I would have known about then, I have one I would have brought, of course now they'd be archived, which is sad. I hope the ones that have been archived are at least relisted whether anyone logs them from GW4 or not. Moosiegirl, I know who you're talking about and that person's caches and wouldn't THAT be horrible if they were archived, they're like a Geocaching legend! Oh, I believe you, it all sounds like great fun. However, if it was all such fun, why do you need to log a bogus find to validate that fun? Isn't just the act of participating good enough? I don't believe anyone said "hey, stop having pocket caches", I think what was said was "Hey, stop logging finds on caches that are not legit." Such a simple concept . . . Why can't these people grasp it? Simple....they've been blinded by their quest for numbers. Kidding, kidding...had to post something with a bit of a jab to it Link to comment
+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I don't think that is the issue here. The issue is deliberately abusing the features of this website to log caches that would not have been published by GC.COM. One COULD argue (and I'm not) that the ABILITY to do so indicates implicit consent. Witness the "non-members backdooring their way into MOC" threads out there. So the fact that a thief can find a way into your home and steal your tv set means you implicitly implied consent? No, that argument definitely doesnt hold up. Link to comment
+Tambourine Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 The numbers do matter to me also. I'm new and seeing how the numbers add up helps me see how much I've improved. I could give a rats about icons and such, but the numbers do matter to me. I wouldn't care if no one but me could see them, but I want to be able to view the numbers. But, what I don't get is how you can let such topics put a downer on your own geocaching experiences. Why do any of you let this bug you so much? I'm not trying to play the "let people play how they want to play" game, I'm honestly asking and am genuinely curious why this bothers you so much. Also, if numbers DON'T matter to you, then why does another's obsession with number stats matter to you? Link to comment
+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Caches are not just about a box in the woods, its about the people who place them. When I create a cache it comes from ME. So for the people who brought the temporary caches it came from their heart and they obviously wanted to have them for ice breakers or share unique containers. I think ARCHIVING the cache is uncalled for and unnecessary . Is Geocaching now a dictatorship? What a shame, I thought it was about people as well as the search. I would have collected the "smilies" but honestly, they don't really matter as much as I'm downright ANGRY at the caches being archived, that's REDICULOUS. And those of you who are so offended, I strongly encourage you to ask yourselves WHY, don't you think a cache is also about the people who place them, not just the box? When you post a cache on this site, you agree to the terms of service of this site. If your cache violates that terms of service, the site has the right to archive your cache listing. If you disagree with the terms of service, then make your cache available on another site. If you want your cache listed on this site, then abide by the terms of service. Link to comment
+drat19 Posted May 31, 2006 Author Share Posted May 31, 2006 No personal attack on you or any individual was intended! I would make the observation however, that standards of acceptable behavior vary by region, so comparing your accomplishments to those in other areas is like comparing apples to oranges. Allowing raw numbers to raise your blood pressure is just silly. I am sure your cache count (hell, I haven't looked, I don't even know what it is) represents more effort expended than my 1190 some odd finds. It also means that your journeys took you to many more noteable, remarkable and rewarding locations than the many WalMarts, Guardrails, Cracker Barrels, STOP signs and Cedar trees that I visited along the way. Wouldn't you think it silly of me if I were to resent your good fortune? For the record, until the guidelines dictate otherwise, I will continue to log temporary event caches as finds when that is the intent of the event owner. I tell you this so you can decrement your opinion of my cache count by whatever degree that makes you happy. As stated before, I am not going to lose any sleep over it (and really wish you wouldn't either). Don't get me wrong. I don't endorse the logging shennagans that some folks engaged in at the recent event. Activities and behaviors that violate the widely accepted interpretation of the GUIDELINES should be discouraged and frowned upon. As for CACHE ON, a new regular size cache (actually significantly larger than an ammo box) was listed near my neighborhood this morning as I was walking out the door for work. It is in the woods. On the side of a mountain. Off of the trail. Amid poison ivy, chiggers, ticks, amongst rocks known to harbor mountain rattlers. Luck for me it is only 600 feet or so from my front door, so I am going to go now and get it. I expect it will be just as much fun as the creative micro I found on the way home yesterday. If I develop a case of poison ivy, I am pretty sure it will not have been from the micro! Toids, I appreciate the reply and the alternative point of view...that's what discussions like this are about. And we all get worked up from time to time, it's all good. I would like to address one part of your post directly: My opinion of your or anyone else's post-mid'04 find count ONLY comes into play the moment anyone wants to compare it to a pre-mid'04 Numbers Ho like I was (until Micro Spew broke me and made me what I should have been all along: a recreational cacher!). Minus those comparisons, I only say: I hope you enjoyed the experiences you had running up your stats as much as I did mine. Link to comment
+Mudfrog Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 It seems that no one is ever able to come up with a legitimate reason as to why pocket caches and/or temporary caches can be logged. I see over and over again, statements like "it doesnt hurt anything", "dont worry about it, it shouldnt affect you", "i play the game the way i want, you play the way you want" , etc, etc,,,. Geocaching.com has very FEW basic rules and guidelines to follow which is a good thing. Still, we need those rules and guidelines to make geocaching enjoyable. Two of the rules,,,, no moving caches, no temporary caches. These arent listable on this site. Soooooo, why on earth would anyone think that they should be able to log them as a find on this site? What i said above makes sense if you know about these rules in the first place. This is where i see the problem as being. Cachers that log them aren't trying to cheat. They did indeed find a cache. I think it comes down to getting the explanation out that these aren't active caches on the website and therefore not loggable. I also hear lots of people say that stats don't matter to them. I know there are some who are being truthful to themselves about this but for the majority of us, all i can say is BALONEY! This thread wouldnt be 9 pages long if stats didn't matter. Let's face it, stats are part of the fun for most of us. They wouldn't be listed here or on other stat listing sites if they weren't. I have to agree wholeheartedly that temporary caches can be a whale of alot of fun. Moosiegirl talked about those brought in for TC06. Gosh those were excellent caches to find. When it came to logging them i had to figure out how i wanted to do it and finally decided to log them as finds (i figured i punched in coordinates and went and found them so that was good). I thought about it, read some of the past threads about this, and finally decided for myself to delete those finds. Those caches were great fun but they werent the originals in the original locations and therefore weren't legitimate active caches on this site. By the way,,, it didn't hurt one bit to change those find logs into notes either! Link to comment
+Miragee Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 The numbers do matter to me also. I'm new and seeing how the numbers add up helps me see how much I've improved. I could give a rats about icons and such, but the numbers do matter to me. I wouldn't care if no one but me could see them, but I want to be able to view the numbers. But, what I don't get is how you can let such topics put a downer on your own geocaching experiences. Why do any of you let this bug you so much? I'm not trying to play the "let people play how they want to play" game, I'm honestly asking and am genuinely curious why this bothers you so much. Also, if numbers DON'T matter to you, then why does another's obsession with number stats matter to you? Okay, here's a scenario. You and a co-worker, who is very competitive, start Geocaching at the very same time. That person goes to an Event you cannot attend because you are working overtime that weekend. That co-worker logs the Event 225 times claiming to have found all the temporary caches, plus all the Pocket Caches, plus all the Archived caches for which they were given the GC codes. Now, that person starts bragging about how they have 225 more caches than you do, and they want to be congratulated at their next "milestone." I am not a competitive person, and don't care about anyone else's numbers, but I do care if the guidelines I try to follow are not being followed by others to the detriment of the sport/game/hobby/obsession. Link to comment
+drat19 Posted May 31, 2006 Author Share Posted May 31, 2006 I also hear lots of people say that stats don't matter to them. I know there are some who are being truthful to themselves about this but for the majority of us, all i can say is BALONEY! This thread wouldnt be 9 pages long if stats didn't matter. Let's face it, stats are part of the fun for most of us. They wouldn't be listed here or on other stat listing sites if they weren't. I was thinking the exact same thing when I observed that we've gone 9 pages on this topic and, while the inevitable "rehashing the same points using different words" has started, we're also getting new posters to the threads with fresh thoughts as well. Link to comment
+drat19 Posted May 31, 2006 Author Share Posted May 31, 2006 The numbers do matter to me also. I'm new and seeing how the numbers add up helps me see how much I've improved. I could give a rats about icons and such, but the numbers do matter to me. I wouldn't care if no one but me could see them, but I want to be able to view the numbers. But, what I don't get is how you can let such topics put a downer on your own geocaching experiences. Why do any of you let this bug you so much? I'm not trying to play the "let people play how they want to play" game, I'm honestly asking and am genuinely curious why this bothers you so much. Also, if numbers DON'T matter to you, then why does another's obsession with number stats matter to you? Okay, here's a scenario. You and a co-worker, who is very competitive, start Geocaching at the very same time. That person goes to an Event you cannot attend because you are working overtime that weekend. That co-worker logs the Event 225 times claiming to have found all the temporary caches, plus all the Pocket Caches, plus all the Archived caches for which they were given the GC codes. Now, that person starts bragging about how they have 225 more caches than you do, and they want to be congratulated at their next "milestone." I am not a competitive person, and don't care about anyone else's numbers, but I do care if the guidelines I try to follow are not being followed by others to the detriment of the sport/game/hobby/obsession. THANK YOU for making my point. The discussion only matters IF STATS MATTER TO YOU, and IF SOMEONE WANTS TO MAKE COMPARISIONS. Then, whether someone ran theirs up by illegitimate means (cheating) or Micro Spew (cheapening), the question of HOW THEY RAN 'EM UP matters. If we're not comparing, then it's a moot discussion. (That must be the 10th time I've had to make this point) Link to comment
+Tambourine Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Okay, here's a scenario. You and a co-worker, who is very competitive, start Geocaching at the very same time. That person goes to an Event you cannot attend because you are working overtime that weekend. That co-worker logs the Event 225 times claiming to have found all the temporary caches, plus all the Pocket Caches, plus all the Archived caches for which they were given the GC codes. Now, that person starts bragging about how they have 225 more caches than you do, and they want to be congratulated at their next "milestone." I am not a competitive person, and don't care about anyone else's numbers, but I do care if the guidelines I try to follow are not being followed by others to the detriment of the sport/game/hobby/obsession. I can see your point and I understand it also. Things like your above scenario used to make me really angry, but they don't anymore. The only point I am trying to make is this: I know that a lot of people would not be so angry and frustrated about this scandal if they stopped and thought about why it is occuring. These people obviously need attention, like you pointed out "...they want to be congratualted...". It's a pity they are such losers. Personally I just ignore them and they shut up or I tell them they are annoying me and that if you have to beg incognito for some recognition, then beat it loser. Go find some of your other sorry friends, I'm sure they will give you all the congrats you need to hear. Then I cache on! (Or continue doing whatever it is I was doing before that loser wasted 6 minutes of my life I can never get back) I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, that would be a worthless waste of my energy. I'm just suggesting another way of handling a situation that may actually allow some other people to relieve some of their frustration and maybe just have a SLIGHTLY more pleasant day. Just something to think about, so please, at least consider trying my tactic. You never know, it may make you feel better! Link to comment
+Recdiver Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 It looks to me like the people that are complaining just really don't understand temporary and/or pocket caches and have never had the great joy in participating in them. Its too bad that you'll never get to see the value in them because they were great fun! You MISSED IT! I still say the caches brought to the event for temporary caches and/or pocket caches were deemed valuable enough by the owner to bring them and I had great fun finding their caches whether I just had to introduce myself and sign the log or plug in coordinates to go find the cache and then sign the log. For that I thank you! If I would have known about then, I have one I would have brought, of course now they'd be archived, which is sad. I hope the ones that have been archived are at least relisted whether anyone logs them from GW4 or not. Moosiegirl, I know who you're talking about and that person's caches and wouldn't THAT be horrible if they were archived, they're like a Geocaching legend! In my opinion the problem wasn't about the pocket caches and they do sound like fun. The problem is people couldn't just settle for the fun of the hunt and meeting new people, they felt compelled to get the smiley and that is where the train jumps the tracks. Link to comment
+Recdiver Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 It looks to me like the people that are complaining just really don't understand temporary and/or pocket caches and have never had the great joy in participating in them. Its too bad that you'll never get to see the value in them because they were great fun! You MISSED IT! I still say the caches brought to the event for temporary caches and/or pocket caches were deemed valuable enough by the owner to bring them and I had great fun finding their caches whether I just had to introduce myself and sign the log or plug in coordinates to go find the cache and then sign the log. For that I thank you! If I would have known about then, I have one I would have brought, of course now they'd be archived, which is sad. I hope the ones that have been archived are at least relisted whether anyone logs them from GW4 or not. Moosiegirl, I know who you're talking about and that person's caches and wouldn't THAT be horrible if they were archived, they're like a Geocaching legend! Oh, I believe you, it all sounds like great fun. However, if it was all such fun, why do you need to log a bogus find to validate that fun? Isn't just the act of participating good enough? I don't believe anyone said "hey, stop having pocket caches", I think what was said was "Hey, stop logging finds on caches that are not legit." Wow VCH I'm agreeing with you twice in one day. You done good. Link to comment
Lt32 Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Oh, who CARES? If someone wants to cheat at solitaire, let them. Their only fooling themselves. Doesn't bother me in the least what someone else's "score" is, or how they achieved it. This is not a competition... its recreation. Relax. I agree Link to comment
+MountainMudbug Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 And as it has been pointed out in this and perhaps other threads, there are cachers out there logging these pockets because that is what others are telling them that it is "the thing to do". Whoever started it figured it out as a way to circumvent guidelines (I guess???) and it has spread from there. I'd never heard of it until recently (I've been caching since 02, slowly, but I've always followed the forum discussions since them). I can see where some people could be misguided by others who have established this as normal. My point (however vague here! ) is that I don't think that all people logging are intentionally #ho'ing it up, many probably just think "ok, this is how things work", when in actually it seems to be a quickly blooming faux paux. Just because you dont care, doesn't mean others don't care. But hey, you are entitled to you apathy. This is America. Land of the free, home of the apathetic. Some of us are interested in "voting", though. Link to comment
+Wacka Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 In a local forum, someone who WAS there said there were nine "pocket caches". All this angst over NINE caches! Some people need to get a life! Link to comment
+VegasCacheHounds Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 It looks to me like the people that are complaining just really don't understand temporary and/or pocket caches and have never had the great joy in participating in them. Its too bad that you'll never get to see the value in them because they were great fun! You MISSED IT! I still say the caches brought to the event for temporary caches and/or pocket caches were deemed valuable enough by the owner to bring them and I had great fun finding their caches whether I just had to introduce myself and sign the log or plug in coordinates to go find the cache and then sign the log. For that I thank you! If I would have known about then, I have one I would have brought, of course now they'd be archived, which is sad. I hope the ones that have been archived are at least relisted whether anyone logs them from GW4 or not. Moosiegirl, I know who you're talking about and that person's caches and wouldn't THAT be horrible if they were archived, they're like a Geocaching legend! Oh, I believe you, it all sounds like great fun. However, if it was all such fun, why do you need to log a bogus find to validate that fun? Isn't just the act of participating good enough? I don't believe anyone said "hey, stop having pocket caches", I think what was said was "Hey, stop logging finds on caches that are not legit." Wow VCH I'm agreeing with you twice in one day. You done good. Sickening, ain't it? Link to comment
+ParrotRobAndCeCe Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations. Then why did we get rid of Virts and locationless? Some of the coolest places I found while doing virts and LC's. Touche. Good catch Link to comment
+ParrotRobAndCeCe Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 In a local forum, someone who WAS there said there were nine "pocket caches". All this angst over NINE caches! Some people need to get a life! Surely you don't mean to imply that there are much more important things in life than angsting over nine pocket caches... Link to comment
+comprofs Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I realize I am new to this sport/game (so flame if you choose); however, I really thought the point of this activity was walking in the woods or city looking for ammo cans, micros, etc. I had thought about attending an event this summer (MidWest GeoBash 2006), but I don't know now. This debate seems so silly. To this novice, it appears simple. Find a cache that is approved by this organization, sign the paper log (not the container), trade swag/bugs, sign the log on-line (if you choose), and then go look for more at your own pace. It doesn't have to be harder than that. Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 In a local forum, someone who WAS there said there were nine "pocket caches". All this angst over NINE caches! Some people need to get a life! I don't care if it was one pocket cache. It's about principle. It's about seeing a sport and way of life that I love be perverted from it's original simple joy. I am upset to see where things are headed. Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I realize I am new to this sport/game (so flame if you choose); however, I really thought the point of this activity was walking in the woods or city looking for ammo cans, micros, etc. I had thought about attending an event this summer (MidWest GeoBash 2006), but I don't know now. This debate seems so silly. To this novice, it appears simple. Find a cache that is approved by this organization, sign the paper log (not the container), trade swag/bugs, sign the log on-line (if you choose), and then go look for more at your own pace. It doesn't have to be harder than that. Amen. Link to comment
+briansnat Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 In a local forum, someone who WAS there said there were nine "pocket caches". All this angst over NINE caches! Some people need to get a life! Hmmmm, perhaps you should take your own advice. Link to comment
+Stunod Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I realize I am new to this sport/game (so flame if you choose); however, I really thought the point of this activity was walking in the woods or city looking for ammo cans, micros, etc. I had thought about attending an event this summer (MidWest GeoBash 2006), but I don't know now. This debate seems so silly. To this novice, it appears simple. Find a cache that is approved by this organization, sign the paper log (not the container), trade swag/bugs, sign the log on-line (if you choose), and then go look for more at your own pace. It doesn't have to be harder than that. Come to GeoBash...you'll have a great time. GeoBash's (un)official slogan is "It's NOT about them numbers." You won't find temporary caches or pocket caches there...just people who want to get together for a long week (or weekend) of socializing. And you only get 1 smilie for it Link to comment
Earthdog Patrick Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Up here in flyover terretory, we have these geo-picnic events, where we eat hotdogs, drink soda and beer and sit around the campfire and gab about geocaching, and show each other our geocoins.. Then we load coordinates in our GPSrs and go scrambling off into the woods, climbing up and down ravines in great herds and find temporary geocaches. We get to actually geocache with famous, revered cachers from far away exotic places like Chicago and Indianpolis.Then we go home and log these temporary caches on the event cache page. It's great fun. We like it and it doesn't hurt anybody. I even had a spice jar hanging on my collar called "Wandering Patrick." 50 people signed its log, They all petted me, many logged it on the event cache page. We keep track of our stats. We are not cheaters. We're just dudes and dudettes and little duders and dog-dudes doing what we like to do, the way we like to do it : GEOCACHING IN INDIANA! Link to comment
+Corp Of Discovery Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I wouldn't call it cheating so much as it is lying. By logging temporary caches you are most definately claiming to have done something you most certainly did not do. The found or attended log indicates you found or attended the cache that is listed on this site. It does not indicate you found a scrap of paper in somebodies pocket. In addition you are claiming to have attended an event twice when you only did so once. It also applies to logging them on any other cache for the same reasons. It is generally accepted to not log a cache multiple times, yet in these cases it is right and proper? You are claiming one thing as another. That, where I come from, is called lying. This activity is based on the honor system and truthfulness is the basis of any such sytem. When you lie you cheapen not only yourself but everyone else who participates in that system. In the end I guess it really is a small matter in the grander scheme of things. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it or let it stop me from enjoying this pastime. Of course that still does not make it right. Link to comment
+NoLemon Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 In a local forum, someone who WAS there said there were nine "pocket caches". All this angst over NINE caches! Some people need to get a life! Seems like you have some angst over one forum thread. What's that about getting a life? Besides, this discussion isn't about just nine pocket caches. It is about the principle of what constitutes a valid log and what doesn't. At some point, the community has to take a stand and say "this goes to far." Apparently we are at that point. If that doesn't happen, the slope just gets more slippery and eventually people will be logging finds for just finding the parking space and thinking about the cache. (Oh, wait, some do that already.) Link to comment
+NoLemon Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 Up here in flyover terretory, we have these geo-picnic events, where we eat hotdogs, drink soda and beer and sit around the campfire and gab about geocaching, and show each other our geocoins.. Then we load coordinates in our GPSrs and go scrambling off into the woods, climbing up and down ravines in great herds and find temporary geocaches. We get to actually geocache with famous, revered cachers from far away exotic places like Chicago and Indianpolis.Then we go home and log these temporary caches on the event cache page. It's great fun. We like it and it doesn't hurt anybody. I even had a spice jar hanging on my collar called "Wandering Patrick." 50 people signed its log, They all petted me, many logged it on the event cache page. We keep track of our stats. We are not cheaters. We're just dudes and dudettes and little duders and dog-dudes doing what we like to do, the way we like to do it : GEOCACHING IN INDIANA! Sounds like a lot of fun! However, again I ask, why do you feel the need to get smilies for those temporary caches you had fun finding with your fellow event attendees? Why is it acceptable to log finds on geocaching.com for caches that are not listed on the site? According to your profile, you have attending 30 events. But when I actually list the events you've been to, only 5 are shown. How is this not mis-representing the truth? Which is it? Have you been to 30 events or 5 events? Link to comment
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