Why Log A Dnf . . .

[+GRANPA ALEX]

I almost never log a DNF unless I feel it will serve the owner notice that the cache may be compromised and I also want warn cachers who follow me of a potential muggle.

 

This results in a very RARE logging of DNF's for me.

 

Logging a DNF because I have not found it makes no sense . . . maybe I was not good at finding this type of hide or my puzzle solution was incorrect or whatever . . . I certainly do not want to send the owner out to repair a sound cache or ward off other cachers - that is not considerate of them.

 

Does this make sense?

[+nfa]

This ground has been covered before, but here is my $0.02...

 

I log a DNF if I looked for a cache until I was certain the cache was not there.

 

If I have to call off my hunt before reaching ground zero, or within a minute of arriving (if I'm bleeding out or Ben is tired/hungry/bored or zombies are shambling through the woods after my tasty brains), I will either log a note explaining my inadequacies or just come back another day to find the cache.

 

jamie

Edited December 12, 2005 by NFA

[+denali7]

given the interesting definitions of "FOUND" lately, this oughta be good...

 

[+wavector]

Logging a DNF because I have not found it makes no sense

 

[+cudlecub]

I typically make 2 or 3 trips to a cache site before logging a DNF unless it is a very low rated cache (1/1.) I feel those pretty much have a neon signing screaming "CACHE IS HERE" and should be found in a manner of seconds. If it is a 1/1 and I can't locate it in a couple of minutes, I will post a DNF. I admit as a cache owner, I don't go out every month and check on the conditions of my caches. I rely on the logs to keep me informed because some of them are in out of the way places for me. A DNF should be a signal that possible cache manintnace is ncecssary.

[+bobbarley]

I have logged a DNF on three occaisions. If something looks a little "hinky" about the site and I can't find the cache. I post a dnf to let the owner and cachers know about what might have happened. It may encourage others to try to find the cache to prove me wrong which is OK if they find it or they may just confirm that the cache is actually not there. One other time is to warn cachers conditions not mentioned in the posting. I got my minivan stuck in early spring mud on a pasture trail. This was on a cache with a 1.5 terrain rating.

[+wimseyguy]

Does this make sense?

Nope, it does not make sense. I log a DNF for every cache search that results in not finding the cache. It is part of the cache's history, I came, I looked, I either found or did not find. Some cache owners get giggles and pride from seeing the DNF logs; why deprive them? Some cachers are more competitive than others; they may derive joy from knowing they found one I could not (on that particular day). How can you possibly know why you didn't find a cache (unless there are obvious remnants, or only one side of a velcro strip pair?

A cache owner can then make his/her own decision to check on the cache based on my post, the history of that cache, and their opinion of my cache finding abilities. So can any following cachers.

Hedoublehockeysticks, I've even posted multiple DNF's on caches too!

[+GRANPA ALEX]

I rely on the logs to keep me informed because some of them are in out of the way places for me. A DNF should be a signal that possible cache manintnace is ncecssary.

Thanks, this is exactly my point . . . DNF's are a signal to the owner, especailly if from an highly experienced cacher - they should not be liberally applied.

 

I do the same thing, let the logs keep me up-to-date on cache condition. Of course, if a relative newbie logs a DNF on a slightly devious hide . . . I tend not to rush out ot check it out but wait on a more experienced cacher to DNF.

[+briansnat]

Logging a DNF because I have not found it makes no sense

 

Ummmm, that is what a DNF log means. You tried to find a cache and you didn't.

[Hugh Jazz]

As a cache owner, I like to offer the opportunity for finders to log multiple DNFs in exchange for posing in creative ways in the place where the cache used to be and then posting the photos in the online log. Oh no, wait, which thread is this again?

[+Les Nomades]

If I expect returning in the next couple of days or weeks to look again, I will wait (specially if there are FOUNDS just before my visit). But when I make my final decision not to return after not finding the cache, I will log it as a DNF.

 

Edit: If there are only DNF just before my visit, and I don't find it, I will log DNF immediatly to get the owner's attention.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Nomade

[+Renegade Knight]

A Cache with NO DNF's on it should be easy. As in I can walk up to it and find it with no trouble.

 

A cache with a lot of DNF's on it, should be hard. In general the logged DNF's should follow the rating (they seldom do because people don't log them).

 

When you don't log you are in effect making the cache look easier than it really is. That's becuse others will review the logs and see a bunch of finds when really the last 5 people couldnt' find it and said nothing.

 

As for the message to the owner, you can always email them. I also use a DNF along with your find count and personal knowledge (if I know you) to decide if I should check on the cache. A newbie looking for my 3 star difficutly cache who logs a DNF won't make me wonder if it's there (odds are it is). An old timer who can't find my 1/1 will catch my attention.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Renegade Knight

[bogleman]

DNF - Did not find, DNF - Did not finish. If I put forth an effort to look for a cache and DNF, I will log accordingly. It lets the owner AND others know someone was looking for it. The only thing I would like is some feedback from the owner (happened a few times) after a DNFind. I do my best to explain the search or whatever was going on while I was there. Don't look at it as a numbers or negative thing - hey if you are really nice mabye they will let you change your frown to a smile (oops - wrong thread)

[+DiskDevil]

I post a DNF whenever I don't find the cache I am in search of. IMHO it serves a dual purpose. It informs others of possible problems with the cache or my failure to find it,and pops up a flag to the cache owner that a possible maint. visit may be in order. A DNF is just as important as SMILEY.

[+briansnat]

Thanks, this is exactly my point . . . DNF's are a signal to the owner, especailly if from an highly experienced cacher - they should not be liberally applied.

 

They are not a signal to the owner. They are a log type. If and how the owner interprets it is up to him.

 

As the owner of a couple of caches, I want all possible feedback. If I place a cache and rate it 1 or 1.5 stars for difficulty and there are a bunch of GRANDPA ALEXes out there who are looking for it, not finding it and not logging those DNFs, how am I supposed to know that my rating was too low?

 

Also, I will look for a pattern of DNFs before deciding if a maint trip is in order. 2 consecutive DNFs on an easy cache will send me out. 3 in a row on a harder one will probably do it too.

 

If CacherA comes along and logs a DNF I may disregard it. Now if GRANDPA ALEX was there before CacherA and didn't log his DNF, as far as I know there has only been one DNF, when in reality there were two. The result is that my maintenance trip has been delayed because GRANDPA ALEX refused to log his DNF. Now CacherB comes along and wastes his time looking for a missing cache. Hopefully CacherB will log the DNF, but if he's of the same mindset as GRANDPA ALEX, then the needed maintenance trip is delayed even longer.

[+GRANPA ALEX]

They are not a signal to the owner. . . then the needed maintenance trip is delayed even longer.

Basically . . . you have reiterated my OP - the DNF logs DO dictate actions on the part of the owner.

 

My point was that if I believe it is TRULY a DNF, I will so log . . . if not, I will not, as it may well be MY problem and not the cache hide.

[+tozainamboku]

My point was that if I believe it is TRULY a DNF, I will so log . . . if not, I will not, as it may well be MY problem and not the cache hide.

So DNF means you TRULY believe its missing but if you think it might be there but you weren't able to find it you don't even post a note. What makes your assesment of whether or not the cache is actually missing better than anyone else?

Edited December 12, 2005 by tozainamboku

[+AuntieWeasel]

My point was that if I believe it is TRULY a DNF, I will so log . . . if not, I will not, as it may well be MY problem and not the cache hide.

Even if it's your problem, you still didn't find it.

 

I don't want to put the owner to any inconvenience on account of my lameness, so I often will post something like, "you probably don't need to check it, I'm not very good at this kind of hide." I figure about 10% of my searches end in DNF, of which the VAST majority turn up in good condition with a subsequent find by someone else. Even, on occasion, me.

 

I consider it important to post them honestly for several reasons: making other non-finders feel better about it (I often get email after a DNF from others who washed out). Alerting the owner that, even if it's right where it should be, it may not be as easy as posted, or the coords may not be good, or it may simply be one of those mystery caches that is strangely hard to find. It's also part of an accurate record of me and my adventures. I was going to say it keeps me humble, but it doesn't really.

 

If you hold my toes to the fire, I will admit that once or twice, I've failed to post a second or third DNF if I know it's there and I'm just not finding it, or my failure is embarrassing, or the hide irritated me, or I just feel like weaseling.

[CoyoteRed]

 

Combine this with the notion that you don't log a DNF until you know the wasn't missing makes this a perfect circle. (After all, how do you "not find" something that wasn't there?)

 

It never ceases to amaze me how folks turn "Didn't Find It" (which, BTW, is what it says in the dropdown list) into "there is something wrong with the cache, you better run out and fix it, because it couldn't be my fault."

 

Hey, half of time the DNF meant there was nothing wrong the cache at all--it was me!

[+Les Nomades]

My point was that if I believe it is TRULY a DNF, I will so log . . . if not, I will not, as it may well be MY problem and not the cache hide.

 

The question that comes to my mind is: what makes you decide or believe it's TRULY a DNF or if its YOUR problem and not the cache hide? Do you take this decision on a first visit or after a couple of visit on the same cache?

[+Mudfrog]

DNF logs do serve a purpose. For future finders, a few DNFs on a cache may tell them that the cache could be a tough one. They may try to be better prepared and/or put forth more effort to make the find.

 

To be honest, i find it enjoyable to try for a cache and make the find after those before us post a DNF or two. Yes you can call it a cheap thrill, but this is one of the aspects of geocaching we like.

 

As a cache owner, a DNF that comes in can either be entertaining or throw up a red flag for us. Depending on what the log says, we can either smile knowing that our cache is challenging or if we think we need to, can get in the car and go check on the cache to make sure it's still there.

 

This seems so easy. A DNF is a type of cache log,, if you looked for a cache and you didnt find it then why not log it as it should be. I dont understand why this a problem for people?

[+Jamie Z]

One of my great joys in placing a cache is to know someone is out looking for it. I'd expect (and hope) that if someone were to go look for one of my caches, they'd write about it in a log. If they happened to have not found it, a DNF is the appropriate log.

 

When I go geocaching, I log the results. If I find a cache, I log it as such. If I don't find a cache, I lot it as such. I don't have any criteria as to whether or not I think the cache is missing or I didn't look hard enough. With rare exception, any cache hunt has two possible outcomes. You either found the cache or you didn't. Fortunately, the creator(s) of this site had the forethought to make exactly two log types to correspond and they should be used.

 

Why people choose to see a grey area in the log types is very strange to me. Except for unusual situations like if you found the cache bits scattered about, but not the container, posting a log should be pretty straight forward. You found the cache, or you didn't.

 

Jamie

[+baloo&bd]

I log every DNF. I use DNF's many ways;

 

As an owner, a DNF triggers me to send you an email to find out if you need a little nudge, in paticular if you are a newer cacher. If I start getting multiple DNF's, I look at the experience of the cachers to determine the urgency to head out the door. 3 or 4 by cachers with 15 hides is a lot different than 1 or 2 by cachers with 600+ not being able to find it. Kinda like "geoprofiling". <sri. couldn't resist>

 

As a seeker, I use them to determine how far out of my way to go. a recent DNF won't scare me off but multiples will. It also helps me to guage how difficult it is if the history is 3 or 4 no finds, then maybe 1 or 2 finds and so on and so on. It may just be a matter of the rating was not that accurate or, again, the experience of the finders.

[+ODragon]

My favorite story was told to me at one of the last events I went to. They said they had a mystery cache no one was doing. After 2 months of no logs, they finally went out and checked it. The second part was missing. After they posted a note that it was missing, they got 4 emails telling them they had looked for the cache but didn't put up DNFs.

 

I've logged DNFs on about everything I couldn't find... even if I go back with someone and it's missing, I post a dnf. If I did not find it (regardless of if I'd found it before or not), it gets a DNF!

[+briansnat]

They are not a signal to the owner. . .  then the needed maintenance trip is delayed even longer.

Basically . . . you have reiterated my OP - the DNF logs DO dictate actions on the part of the owner.

 

My point was that if I believe it is TRULY a DNF, I will so log . . . if not, I will not, as it may well be MY problem and not the cache hide.

They do not *dictate* action on the part of the owner. They provide the owner with the information he needs to make an informed judgement regarding the state of his cache.

By refusing to log your DNFs your are witholding this information from the owner and its not fair to him or your fellow geocachers.

[+nfa]

I log DNFs when I think action should be taken on the part of the owner...like when I'm pretty certain the cache is missing or the coords are way off.

 

I don't log DNFs when I didn't really look for it, whatever the reasons...see above for examples...

 

jamie

Edited December 12, 2005 by NFA

[+Les Nomades]

Ran over 200 caches this weekend, of the 450 loaded into my GPS via GSAK.

 

Now I want to use GSAK to log the 200+ finds on the gc.com site, with generic logs . . . can it be done as a bulk upload from a GSAK file?

 

Please point me to the data source to answer this query . . . one-at-a-time will take longer than the finding did in the field.

 

Grandpa Alex, I remember this post you wrote in November. Unless I misunderstood your post, It wasn't clear in my mind how a person can do so many cache in a weekend. So my question is, when your on a cache, before you make your mind if it's truly a DNF or if its your problem, did you really search well? As for 200 finds in a weekend, whats your secret?

Edited December 12, 2005 by Nomade

[+altosaxplayer]

I almost never log a DNF unless I feel it will serve the owner notice that the cache may be compromised and I also want warn cachers who follow me of a potential muggle.

 

Same here. I dont like DNFs because sometimes I am just to stupid to find the darn little thing. For instance. There are some caches up towards WV, DC, MD called "Off Your Rocker". These are located at Cracker Barrels. Down here where I live, we dont have but 1 CB, and the cache is in the parking lot. Apparently, thats not how all of the caches are. We had about 3 DNFs on those caches, UNTIL we looked for one where it revealed where it was. We had looked and looked for those others with no avail. Found the one, and it all fell into place.

 

When I DO log a DNF. I usually do this when I know where the cache is, and the cache is clearly not there. Ususally on micros where I know where it should be, its just not. I even try to make sure by calling previous finders.

[+wavector]

I log DNFs when ... the coords are way off.

 

 

 

[+Hoosier Katie]

I'm new at this game, and I know everyone plays it there own way, but here's my take on it. Since DNF simply means Did Not Find, if I go looking and for whatever reason was unable to get to the log to sign it, I log a DNF.

 

If I believe the cache isn't there (which, IMO, is a whole different thing than a DNF and it hasn't happened to me yet) I'd post in my DNF log that this is my belief and why it is my belief. Otherwise, the DNF means I simply didn't complete the task. I think that if I were a cache owner of a high-difficulty cache, I would expect to see a number of DNFs. If I didn't, I'd want to lower the difficulty rating and make my next hide tougher!

 

Since this is my opinion, I also think that saying, "Logging a DNF just because I did not find it doesn't make sense--I don't know that it's not there" is the same thing as saying, "Logging a find because I found the cache right on the coordinates, just as described, doesn't make any sense. It was obviously there." I think that neither of these statements make sense. If it's probably there and you didn't find it--DNF. If it's there and you find it-- Found. We all play our own game...but you did ask.

[+briansnat]

When I DO log a DNF. I usually do this when I know where the cache is, and the cache is clearly not there. Ususally on micros where I know where it should be, its just not. I even try to make sure by calling previous finders.

 

If I had a buck for every time I was absolutly certain the cache was missing and later found out it was there, I could take the wife out for a very nice dinner.

Edited December 12, 2005 by briansnat

[+DavidMac]

Hey, half of time the DNF meant there was nothing wrong the cache at all--it was me!

Same here. I'd probably be considered a bit too generous when it comes to posting DNF logs, but the no-finds as much a part of the caching experience as my finds. Generally, if I arrive at the cordinates for the final stage, and walk away without signing the log, it's a DNF.

 

Of course, there's a difference between posting a DNF that reads, "Arrived at the site, but workers were pouring concrete nearby and I didn't want to compromise the cache" and "Looked inside the hollow gerr indicated in the hint, but didn't see the ammo can". The later obviously suggests that the hider should consider taking some course of action to check/replace the cache, the other one is simply a way of sharing my experiences at the site and doesn't necessarily suggest that there's a problem. If I only get halfway down the trail before a thunderstorm hits, or if I only find half of the stages of a multi before I get tired and decide to finish another day, that's just a note.

 

And, sometimes, my DNFs are some of my more interesting logs...

[+flask]

if i don't really look, i don't log it.

 

like, if i get to the parking lot and don't feel like looking. or if i get to the location and for some reason think that the cache may or may not be there but that i just don't care enough to log it.

 

if i've put any thought into it, or if something interesting happened on the way, or i just need a stepping stone to the next part of the story, i log it.

 

and if i think the owner needs to be signaled, i find email works very nicely.

 

i save my DNF logs for when i DON'T FIND A CACHE!

 

a have a most excellent record of DNFs. a DNF is part of my story as a cacher and it is also part of the cache history.

 

if you go there and look and don't tell us about it, we miss out on all the fun.

 

schadenfreude, people! think schadenfreude!

 

no, really. you don't find it, it's a DNF.

 

only time i post a not instead is if i think i really AM going back tomorrow and i'm not done looking.

 

like, i look all the places i think of and i go home, resolved to try again soon: DNF fer sure.

 

i looked for a little while but it got dark and i have plenty of ideas including that big hollow stump over there but i'm coming back in the morning: maybe a note instead. why write two logs for what is essentially one hunt broken up by a meal, or some sleep?

 

 

go ahead; check my logs.

[+Hoosier Katie]

schadenfreude, people! think schadenfreude!

 

At least you admit it

[+Renegade Knight]

They are not a signal to the owner. . .  then the needed maintenance trip is delayed even longer.

Basically . . . you have reiterated my OP - the DNF logs DO dictate actions on the part of the owner.

 

My point was that if I believe it is TRULY a DNF, I will so log . . . if not, I will not, as it may well be MY problem and not the cache hide.

You are rather backwards on that. If you looked and could not find it, it's a did not find. While that cache may be beyond your ability to find, if you are not alone, it's a difficult cache and the DNF re-iterates that. The owner may have called the cache a 1 when it's a 4 and finders only clue about that is that others can't find it and are logging it. Conversly the owner may be awake and recognize that with all the DNF's he should up his difficulty.

 

The DNF also lets you as a finder prepare to find the cache. I have an easier time with a 4 star cache if I know it's a 4 star than looking for a 1 star that's really virtually impossible.

 

You should log them. It's the only way everone is on the same page.

[+New England n00b]

If I step foot on the trail, I log a find or a dnf, and why.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Nope, it does not make sense. I log a DNF for every cache search that results in not finding the cache. It is part of the cache's history, I came, I looked, I either found or did not find. Some cache owners get giggles and pride from seeing the DNF logs; why deprive them? Some cachers are more competitive than others; they may derive joy from knowing they found one I could not (on that particular day). How can you possibly know why you didn't find a cache (unless there are obvious remnants, or only one side of a velcro strip pair?

 

Yes, that's it exactly!

 

I log my DNFs without regard to whether I think it's gone or I think I missed it. I may mention circumstances one way or another; reassurances that I was having a bad day, or it was really cloudy or whatever, likely the cache is fine; or the area looks like it's been bulldozed, burnt over flooded whatever.

 

I KNOW it gives people satisfaction to find caches I missed - and I'm happy to make them happy.

[+4leafclover]

I , too, must say that DNF's comprise many of my more interesting logs.

 

I also find it a touch condescending that some one would believe that the only reason they could not find a cache is becasue it is not there.

[+nfa]

I log DNFs when I think action should be taken on the part of the owner...like when I'm pretty certain the cache is missing or the coords are way off.

 

I don't log DNFs when I didn't really look for it, whatever the reasons...see above for examples...

 

jamie

 

ok...ok...this made sense to me, but I can see how it could lead to scratched heads or the assumption that I'm having a senior moment...

 

What I meant, and mean, is that if I have searched long enough and thoroughly enough that I am reasonably certain that the cache container is either missing or that the listed coordinates are inaccurate enough that the container is outside of my generous search area, then I will log a DNF.

 

I log a DNF to communicate to a cache owner that I do not believe that the cache is at the coordinates, or within the error margin of both of our machines...not because it started to rain or I got hungry and I headed home early.

 

I log DNFs in this way because this is they way I would like people to log them on my caches.

 

When someone logs one of mine DNF, I assume it is gone, and go out to check on it.

 

In posting this, I'm not saying that people have to log DNFs the same way that I do, but people keep asking why/how to log DNFs...I just answered (for me)...play your own game, I'll play mine.

 

jamie

Edited December 13, 2005 by NFA

[+clearpath]

DNFs are a badge of honor ... I enjoy them almost as much as I enjoy smilies. I think cache owners love to see DNFs ... gives them a warm fuzzy feeling. Like snuggling up to a hampster.

[+BlueDeuce]

I almost never log a DNF unless I feel it will serve the owner notice that the cache may be compromised and I also want warn cachers who follow me of a potential muggle.

 

This results in a very RARE logging of DNF's for me.

 

Logging a DNF because I have not found it makes no sense . . . maybe I was not good at finding this type of hide or my puzzle solution was incorrect or whatever . . . I certainly do not want to send the owner out to repair a sound cache or ward off other cachers - that is not considerate of them.

 

Does this make sense? 

How about because it's sharing our geocaching experience with a fellow cacher?

 

After the caching experience, sharing that experience is the next best thing. Why does it just have to be the 'found it' part?

Edited December 13, 2005 by BlueDeuce

[+Les Nomades]

I guess some cachers are out to get an all life perfect score

[+Ed & Julie]

I log every DNF (which means did not find).

If I look and don't find it...seems obvious to log a DNF.

Found it? Log a find.

Didn't find it? Log a DNF.

Seems pretty straight forward...

 

Ed

(proud owner of 140+ DNFs)

[+BlueDeuce]

woo, 21 for me

 

about 10% (3 not yet recovered)

 

oops, I take that back 6 not yet recovered. I better get back to caching!

Edited December 13, 2005 by BlueDeuce

[+Les Nomades]

A big 12.5% for me

[+clearpath]

I'm looking at almost 8%.

[+JMBella]

I've said it before... If my boots hit the ground and I don't find it I log a DNF. It doesn't make sense NOT to.

[+Mearth]

I log DNF's when I give up. That may be 15 minutes after initial arrival, or 3 visits later. DNF stands for 'did not find', right? Pretty straight forward to me. "Can't Be Found" logs are otherwise known as 'SBA' logs.

 

Yesterday I posted a DNF on a cache because I didn't find the cache. I looked and fell and poked and slid and looked some more and tumbled fully, and didn't find it. It's somewhere under a blanket of icey snow on a steep bank hosting ferns and stumps and deep holes. Sparing another cacher the long string of self-esteem eroding Jerry Lewis moments that this cache currently entails seems like a worthwhile thing to do.

 

Besides! I DidN't Find it.

[+CamoCacher]

The DNF while being for the owner to ensure there is no problem it is also for me to see how I am doing. I usually put in the log why I don't think I found it so the owner doesn't have to go out if they don't want too. Most owners don't go out on just one DNF.

[+Quest Master]

I've been playing this game for a long time but this question still troubles me. The reason?

 

When you go to log the cache, you select the "didn't find it" log type but when the email goes out to the cache owner and everybody else, it comes up "couldn't find it". In practice, I will usually log a DNF even if I made a weak attempt on it but in many cases it's more of a "didn't find" than a "couldn't find". I'd have a better idea of when to log a note and when to log a DNF if this little discrepency was cleared up.