Moon Coordinates

July 7, 2005

Has anyone wondered what will happen when someone places a cache on the moon? (or other planet) How will the coordinated be viewed? Will we use the same format and add a letter to the beginning? (i.e. - M) I realize that it will be awhile before the moon even has satellites to run a GPS. But all of the geocachers ready to put the 1st geocache on the moon are going to run into a real problem.

9.4k · July 7, 2005

The coordinates won't matter, just your altitude :unsure:

Edited July 7, 2005 by Team GPSaxophone

3.5k · July 7, 2005

From Wolframresearch:

"On the Moon, selenographic coordinates are used. The prime meridian passes through the mean center of the lunar disk as it faces the Earth. Positive longitude is toward Mare Crisium and positive latitude is toward Mare Serenitatis.

Heliographic coordinates are used on the Sun. The prime meridian passes through the center of the solar disk as seen from the Earth on the date 1853 November 9.9. This was the beginning of solar Synodic Rotation Number 1. By convention, the solar sidereal rotation period is taken to be exactly 25.38 days. Based on this value, the mean synodic period between rotation numbers is 27.2752316 days. The central latitude reaches a maximum of +7.25 degrees on September 9 and a minimum of -7.25 degrees on March 6 of each year. The central latitude is zero on June 6 and December 7 of each year.

On Mercury, the prime meridian is defined to be 20 degrees away from the crater Hun Kal (a name that means 20 in the Mayan language). Positive longitude is east of Hun Kal and positive latitude is toward Planitia Borealis.

The prime meridian on Venus passes through the crater Eve in Alpha Regio. Positive longitude is toward Thetis Regio and positive latitude is toward the Maxwell Mountains.

On the Earth, geographic coordinates are used. As stated earlier, the prime meridian passes through Greenwich. Positive longitude is toward Asia and positive latitude is toward the Arctic.

Areographic coordinates are used on Mars. The prime meridian passes through the crater Airy-O. Positive longitude is toward Syrtis Major and positive latitude is toward Acidalia.

Jupiter has several coordinate systems because different latitudes rotate at different rates. Scientific Astronomer uses System II coordinates, based on the mean atmospheric rotation of the north and south equatorial belts. Positive latitude is in the opposite hemisphere away from the Great Red Spot.

Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune also have several coordinate systems. This package uses the System III coordinates, based on the rotating magnetic field.

In the case of the Galilean moons, Io, Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto, a coordinate system similar to selenographic coordinates on the Moon is used. The prime meridian passes through the mean center of the moon's disk as it faces Jupiter"

1k · July 7, 2005

There are already a couple caches on the moon. One is the descent stage of the Lunar Module "Eagle" with its rocket thruster and its pod feet. The other is an American flag.

And, in true geocache fashion, there is also a golf ball in space, probably orbiting some distant star or planet, as if a precursor of geocaching to come. This was "launched" by one of the astronauts in a more whimsical moment of the Apollo moon landings.

Finding these items? Well, that will be more of a compass and map thing than a GPS thing...at this time.

2.4k · July 7, 2005

The coordinates won't matter, just your altitude

But wouldn't caches on the moon be traveling caches, the coords would change as the moon circles the earth....

July 7, 2005

From Wolframresearch:

"On the Moon, selenographic coordinates are used. The prime meridian passes through the mean center of the lunar disk as it faces the Earth. Positive longitude is toward Mare Crisium and positive latitude is toward Mare Serenitatis.

Heliographic coordinates are used on the Sun. The prime meridian passes through the center of the solar disk as seen from the Earth on the date 1853 November 9.9. This was the beginning of solar Synodic Rotation Number 1. By convention, the solar sidereal rotation period is taken to be exactly 25.38 days. Based on this value, the mean synodic period between rotation numbers is 27.2752316 days. The central latitude reaches a maximum of +7.25 degrees on September 9 and a minimum of -7.25 degrees on March 6 of each year. The central latitude is zero on June 6 and December 7 of each year.

On Mercury, the prime meridian is defined to be 20 degrees away from the crater Hun Kal (a name that means 20 in the Mayan language). Positive longitude is east of Hun Kal and positive latitude is toward Planitia Borealis.

The prime meridian on Venus passes through the crater Eve in Alpha Regio. Positive longitude is toward Thetis Regio and positive latitude is toward the Maxwell Mountains.

On the Earth, geographic coordinates are used. As stated earlier, the prime meridian passes through Greenwich. Positive longitude is toward Asia and positive latitude is toward the Arctic.

Areographic coordinates are used on Mars. The prime meridian passes through the crater Airy-O. Positive longitude is toward Syrtis Major and positive latitude is toward Acidalia.

Jupiter has several coordinate systems because different latitudes rotate at different rates. Scientific Astronomer uses System II coordinates, based on the mean atmospheric rotation of the north and south equatorial belts. Positive latitude is in the opposite hemisphere away from the Great Red Spot.

Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune also have several coordinate systems. This package uses the System III coordinates, based on the rotating magnetic field.

In the case of the Galilean moons, Io, Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto, a coordinate system similar to selenographic coordinates on the Moon is used. The prime meridian passes through the mean center of the moon's disk as it faces Jupiter"

dadgum.

I was just thinking that.

-Jeff

5.7k · July 7, 2005

The coordinated will always be viewed as superior to the un-coordinated.

July 7, 2005

There are already a couple caches on the moon. One is the descent stage of the Lunar Module "Eagle" with its rocket thruster and its pod feet. The other is an American flag.

And, in true geocache fashion, there is also a golf ball in space, probably orbiting some distant star or planet, as if a precursor of geocaching to come. This was "launched" by one of the astronauts in a more whimsical moment of the Apollo moon landings.

Finding these items? Well, that will be more of a compass and map thing than a GPS thing...at this time.

Alan Shepard (the first American in space) hit a golfball on the moon. It went 6X as far as it would have here (the gravity is 1/6) but it would have to go ~2800 mph to get into orbit around the moon.

Edited July 7, 2005 by Wacka

1.8k · July 7, 2005

There already is a cache on the moon...

9.4k · July 7, 2005

There are already a couple caches on the moon. One is the descent stage of the Lunar Module "Eagle" with its rocket thruster and its pod feet. The other is an American flag.

And, in true geocache fashion, there is also a golf ball in space, probably orbiting some distant star or planet, as if a precursor of geocaching to come. This was "launched" by one of the astronauts in a more whimsical moment of the Apollo moon landings.

Finding these items? Well, that will be more of a compass and map thing than a GPS thing...at this time.

If that's true, then why can't our most powerful telescopes show any evidence of such items?

1.3k · July 7, 2005

Sounds like a vacation cache... Good luck getting it approved!

3.1k · July 7, 2005

Finding these items? Well, that will be more of a compass and map thing than a GPS thing...at this time.

Does the moon have magnetic poles?

July 7, 2005

There are already a couple caches on the moon. One is the descent stage of the Lunar Module "Eagle" with its rocket thruster and its pod feet. The other is an American flag.

And, in true geocache fashion, there is also a golf ball in space, probably orbiting some distant star or planet, as if a precursor of geocaching to come. This was "launched" by one of the astronauts in a more whimsical moment of the Apollo moon landings.

Finding these items? Well, that will be more of a compass and map thing than a GPS thing...at this time.

If that's true, then why can't our most powerful telescopes show any evidence of such items?

I bet they can be seen. Perhaps no one is looking.

1k · July 7, 2005

Finding these items? Well, that will be more of a compass and map thing than a GPS thing...at this time.

Does the moon have magnetic poles?

Yes.

I understand they may shift more noticeably than those of Earth because of the size of the planet and its composure(?) Anyone know?

Edited July 7, 2005 by tabulator32

1k · July 7, 2005

There are already a couple caches on the moon. One is the descent stage of the Lunar Module "Eagle" with its rocket thruster and its pod feet. The other is an American flag.

And, in true geocache fashion, there is also a golf ball in space, probably orbiting some distant star or planet, as if a precursor of geocaching to come. This was "launched" by one of the astronauts in a more whimsical moment of the Apollo moon landings.

Finding these items? Well, that will be more of a compass and map thing than a GPS thing...at this time.

If that's true, then why can't our most powerful telescopes show any evidence of such items?

I bet they can be seen. Perhaps no one is looking.

I'll bet they can be seen.

I believe the moon rotates on its axis at about the same rate that it orbits the Earth, meaning their is always one side of the moon that is generally facing away from us. (Not entirely certain. Is this true?)

If that is the case, and we landed on the half facing away from Earth, then we wouldn't see it with conventional Earth-based telescopes.

On the other hand, I have always wondered why I never saw a telescopic image of the lunar lander base or the American flag in a text book or on the internet. You think SOMEONE would have done it for posterity's sake.

July 7, 2005

Here are the best existing photos of what appear to be the Apollo stuff on the moon:

http://www.tass-survey.org/richmond/answer...nar_lander.html

And here's some images of missing Mars stuff:

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/05/

July 7, 2005

No, there are no poles on the moon. There is no native magnetic field, hence, no poles.

Not that there is any relevance in that. We have never been to the moon. Don't you read the conspiracy newsletters? It was all a hoax. Just like "Jeremy". There is no real Jeremy. He is a fictional figure devised by a think tank group bent on taking over the surplus ammo box market.

7.2k · July 7, 2005

Lunar landing sites.

July 7, 2005

:rolleyes: You can probably forget about virtuals.

The reviewers are apparently either so wordly or so jaded that the "wow" reflex has become atrophied.

July 7, 2005

From Wolframresearch:

"On the Moon, selenographic coordinates are used. The prime meridian passes through the mean center of the lunar disk as it faces the Earth. Positive longitude is toward Mare Crisium and positive latitude is toward Mare Serenitatis.

Are selenographic coordinates only used on the moon, or are they type of coordinates? Whether or not they are only used on the moon the we need to add a "Select Planet" drop down box on the search page. (Then a "Select Galaxy" box) :rolleyes:

1k · July 7, 2005

No, there are no poles on the moon. There is no native magnetic field, hence, no poles.

Not that there is any relevance in that. We have never been to the moon. Don't you read the conspiracy newsletters? It was all a hoax. Just like "Jeremy". There is no real Jeremy. He is a fictional figure devised by a think tank group bent on taking over the surplus ammo box market.

You're right. There is not a magnetic field which encompasses the entire moon providing a N and S pole.

This may be interesting to some.

(Didn't they recently expose Jeremy to be Deep Throat?)

:rolleyes:

:anibad:

July 7, 2005

(Didn't they recently expose Jeremy to be Deep Throat?)

They are claiming now, that they will not confirm that until "Deep Throat" is dead. :rolleyes:

BTW, very interesting article. That seems to imply that there are "mini poles" all over the moon. :lol:

5.3k · July 7, 2005

No, there are no poles on the moon. There is no native magnetic field, hence, no poles.

There are no magnetic poles on the Moon. It still has poles, though. The N and S poles are defined by rotational symmetry, not by the magnetic field.

It is actually interesting that the magnetic poles fall relatively close to the rotational poles for most planets. That gives us important clues about how the magnetic fields are generated. You may recall, in addition, that the Earth's magnetic field flips every so often, so that what we call the N magnetic pole moves down close to the S pole and vice-versa.

Edited July 7, 2005 by fizzymagic

July 7, 2005

Alan Shepard (the first American in space) hit a golfball on the moon. It went 6X as far as it would have here (the gravity is 1/6) but it would have to go ~2800 mph to get into orbit around the moon.

Not another golf ball in a cache?!?!?!?!?

:rolleyes:

24.7k · July 7, 2005

...Are selenographic coordinates only used on the moon, or are they type of coordinates? Whether or not they are only used on the moon the we need to add a "Select Planet" drop down box on the search page. (Then a "Select Galaxy" box)

If the moon was in a geosynchronous orbit with the same side always facing earth with no wobble (there is a slight wobble of the face presented) you could use WGS84 to mark locations on the moon.

Since none of that is true though you can't. The moons coordinate system would be specific to the moon. I'm not sure if the way the coordinates are presented is unique I suspect it's not though. For example you can have The WGS84 datum presented in both UTM and Latitude and Longitude.

So my WAG is that selenographic is to the moon what WGS84 is to Earth. A datum.

2k · July 7, 2005

I can see it now. Micro's in various orbits around the moon. I thought some of the micros we have to find now was hard enough. Imagine a 35mm film container in some kind of eliptic orbit around the moon.

:rolleyes:

July 7, 2005

There is not a telescope with the resolving power to view any of the six flags that have been left on the moon. The smallest area an extraterrestrial telescope, such as the Hubble Space Telescope, can resolve is about .005 Arc Seconds, or about 280 Feet across.

More info on telescope resolution and viewing small things:

Cornell

Resolving power

The names of the twelve men who walked on the moon.

Twelve Men on the Moon

2.2k · July 8, 2005

Alan Shepard (the first American in space) hit a golfball on the moon. It went 6X as far as it would have here (the gravity is 1/6) but it would have to go ~2800 mph to get into orbit around the moon.

Not another golf ball in a cache?!?!?!?!?

not quite accurate. the ball on the moon would go somewhat further as no air resistance, but very unlikely to obtain orbit! :unsure:

2.5k · July 8, 2005

From Wolframresearch:

"On the Moon, selenographic coordinates are used. The prime meridian passes through the mean center of the lunar disk as it faces the Earth. Positive longitude is toward Mare Crisium and positive latitude is toward Mare Serenitatis.

Heliographic coordinates are used on the Sun. The prime meridian passes through the center of the solar disk as seen from the Earth on the date 1853 November 9.9. This was the beginning of solar Synodic Rotation Number 1. By convention, the solar sidereal rotation period is taken to be exactly 25.38 days. Based on this value, the mean synodic period between rotation numbers is 27.2752316 days. The central latitude reaches a maximum of +7.25 degrees on September 9 and a minimum of -7.25 degrees on March 6 of each year. The central latitude is zero on June 6 and December 7 of each year.

On Mercury, the prime meridian is defined to be 20 degrees away from the crater Hun Kal (a name that means 20 in the Mayan language). Positive longitude is east of Hun Kal and positive latitude is toward Planitia Borealis.

The prime meridian on Venus passes through the crater Eve in Alpha Regio. Positive longitude is toward Thetis Regio and positive latitude is toward the Maxwell Mountains.

On the Earth, geographic coordinates are used. As stated earlier, the prime meridian passes through Greenwich. Positive longitude is toward Asia and positive latitude is toward the Arctic.

Areographic coordinates are used on Mars. The prime meridian passes through the crater Airy-O. Positive longitude is toward Syrtis Major and positive latitude is toward Acidalia.

Jupiter has several coordinate systems because different latitudes rotate at different rates. Scientific Astronomer uses System II coordinates, based on the mean atmospheric rotation of the north and south equatorial belts. Positive latitude is in the opposite hemisphere away from the Great Red Spot.

Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune also have several coordinate systems. This package uses the System III coordinates, based on the rotating magnetic field.

In the case of the Galilean moons, Io, Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto, a coordinate system similar to selenographic coordinates on the Moon is used. The prime meridian passes through the mean center of the moon's disk as it faces Jupiter"

Once more, now, in English.

1.5k · July 8, 2005

Alan Shepard (the first American in space) hit a golfball on the moon. It went 6X as far as it would have here (the gravity is 1/6) but it would have to go ~2800 mph to get into orbit around the moon.

Not another golf ball in a cache?!?!?!?!?

not quite accurate. the ball on the moon would go somewhat further as no air resistance, but very unlikely to obtain orbit!

A Golf ball is actually designed to be Aerodynamic, with the dimples providing lift and helping the ball fly further.

While I doubt that it would make up for air resistance, the absence of lift on the dimples would shorten the distance the ball would fly.

July 8, 2005

If and when folks go there on a regular basis, I predict that cachers will be among them. It won't take long to establish caches. Whether a system of Lunar Positioning Satellites also gets established is another question. I doubt the GPS system would work (or be very accurate if signals COULD be received) on the lunar surface.

Assuming some similar navigational system gets built, and caches hidden, obviously, they would not be GEOcaches, but LUNARcaches. I hereby suggest (and demand to be credited for it) that lunar caches be numbered with an LC prefix (as in LC0001). Mars caches would be MCxxxx and so forth.

Remember, it was my idea.

8k · July 8, 2005

Assuming some similar navigational system gets built, and caches hidden, obviously, they would not be GEOcaches, but LUNARcaches. I hereby suggest (and demand to be credited for it) that lunar caches be numbered with an LC prefix (as in LC0001).

Actually on the moon they would be Selenocaches and the coordinates as stated previously would be selenographic coordinates. Seleno- is a prefix meaning moon from the Greek word selenos as opposed to the Latin luna. (Of course on terracaching.com they would be called lunarcaches. )

July 8, 2005

And if we make to martian circum lunar orbit they will be deimos or phobos caches.

July 11, 2005

There are already a couple caches on the moon. One is the descent stage of the Lunar Module "Eagle" with its rocket thruster and its pod feet. The other is an American flag.

And, in true geocache fashion, there is also a golf ball in space, probably orbiting some distant star or planet, as if a precursor of geocaching to come. This was "launched" by one of the astronauts in a more whimsical moment of the Apollo moon landings.

Finding these items? Well, that will be more of a compass and map thing than a GPS thing...at this time.

If that's true, then why can't our most powerful telescopes show any evidence of such items?

I bet they can be seen. Perhaps no one is looking.

I'll bet they can be seen.

I believe the moon rotates on its axis at about the same rate that it orbits the Earth, meaning their is always one side of the moon that is generally facing away from us. (Not entirely certain. Is this true?)

If that is the case, and we landed on the half facing away from Earth, then we wouldn't see it with conventional Earth-based telescopes.

On the other hand, I have always wondered why I never saw a telescopic image of the lunar lander base or the American flag in a text book or on the internet. You think SOMEONE would have done it for posterity's sake.

Yes the Moon does alway present the same side to us for the reason previously stated (Actually due to variation in it's orbit, we get to see about 59% of it surface due to a phenominon called Libraton). All Lunar landings were on the near side. Communcations was line of site, so to land on the far side would have had the astronauts incommuncado for their stay, which was an unacceptable risk.

The Descnt Stage of the LM is only about 18 feet across, even the most poweful earth based Telescopes would have a resolution of about a few hundred feet, not enough to see something 18 feet across. The flag from Apollo 11, obviously would be next to impossible, even though it was blown over by the LM's Acents stage exhaust (Buzz Aldrin saw it fall over as the blasted off.)

At my astronomy club's public star parties, one of our members always asks someone if they can see the flag. Invariably they answer yes. He then asks them to point it out to him as he's never seen it. Usually good for a laugh or two..

Rick

Team SaguaroAstro

2.2k · July 12, 2005

that's if they were ever there of course!!! wasn't it some film studio or area 51.... :lol:

1.1k · July 20, 2005

Google has posted the Apollo landing positions in honor of the July 20, 1969 Apollo 11 mission.

July 20, 2005

If you zoom all the way in you can see some of the space junk we left behind...Im starting to believe....NO I still dont believe we went to the moon

1k · July 20, 2005

that's if they were ever there of course!!! wasn't it some film studio or area 51....

Well, Nobby, somebody went there, 'cause if you aim a laser at a certain spot, it will bounce off an array of corner reflectors and return to you. I've seen it done.

1.1k · July 20, 2005

that's if they were ever there of course!!! wasn't it some film studio or area 51....

Well, Nobby, somebody went there, 'cause if you aim a laser at a certain spot, it will bounce off an array of corner reflectors and return to you. I've seen it done.

I think OJ Simpson went there. Oh, wait a second, that was Mars.

1.1k · July 20, 2005

If you zoom all the way in you can see some of the space junk we left behind...Im starting to believe....NO I still dont believe we went to the moon

If you zoom all the way, you can see that the moon is made of *yellow* cheese, not green!

1k · July 20, 2005

Google has posted the Apollo landing positions in honor of the July 20, 1969 Apollo 11 mission.

Easier to see here.

1k · July 20, 2005

that's if they were ever there of course!!! wasn't it some film studio or area 51....

Well, Nobby, somebody went there, 'cause if you aim a laser at a certain spot, it will bounce off an array of corner reflectors and return to you. I've seen it done.

First of all, a one-inch wide laser shot at the moon would be about six inches wide when it arrived and even more dispersed when it came back. Secondly, even if it were reflected from an object on the moon, the chances of it being reflected directly back to its source are extre-e-emely remote. Tertiatily, I wasn't aware any of our landers had safety reflectors stuck on them! (Maybe it was some kid's bicycle!)

July 20, 2005

that's if they were ever there of course!!! wasn't it some film studio or area 51....

Well, Nobby, somebody went there, 'cause if you aim a laser at a certain spot, it will bounce off an array of corner reflectors and return to you. I've seen it done.

First of all, a one-inch wide laser shot at the moon would be about six inches wide when it arrived and even more dispersed when it came back. Secondly, even if it were reflected from an object on the moon, the chances of it being reflected directly back to its source are extre-e-emely remote. Tertiatily, I wasn't aware any of our landers had safety reflectors stuck on them! (Maybe it was some kid's bicycle!)

I thought an Apollo mission left a big reflector so NASA could measure the distance between the earth and the moon accurately with a laser.

3.9k · July 20, 2005

Secondly, even if it were reflected from an object on the moon, the chances of it being reflected directly back to its source are extre-e-emely remote. Tertiatily, I wasn't aware any of our landers had safety reflectors stuck on them! (Maybe it was some kid's bicycle!)

I thought an Apollo mission left a big reflector so NASA could measure the distance between the earth and the moon accurately with a laser.

Check out the link in Reveritt's post. it explains the reflectors, and why the laser beam reflecting directly back to it's source isn't extra-e-emely remote at all. In fact it's 100% guaranteed to reflect back.

Just like when you shine a laser pointer on a stop sign at an angle. You'll see the point on the sign because it's reflected back to you, but someone at another angle can barely see it.

July 20, 2005

Just like when you shine a laser pointer on a stop sign at an angle. You'll see the point on the sign because it's reflected back to you, but someone at another angle can barely see it.

aha, the laser shiner in peoples eyes while they are driving dude.

relax, I won't tell anybody.

oops, I guess you already confessed.

terrible

3.9k · July 20, 2005

Just like when you shine a laser pointer on a stop sign at an angle. You'll see the point on the sign because it's reflected back to you, but someone at another angle can barely see it.

aha, the laser shiner in peoples eyes while they are driving dude.

relax, I won't tell anybody.

oops, I guess you already confessed.

terrible

No, "stop sign" is not the same thing as "people's eyes".

July 20, 2005

here you go:

Google has got you covered

July 20, 2005

oops... sorry about that, looks like I was beaten to the punch. I guess it helps if I read the whole thread before shooting my mouth off :-)

1k · July 20, 2005

...
First of all, a one-inch wide laser shot at the moon would be about six inches wide when it arrived and even more dispersed when it came back....

Actually, the dispersal is on the scale of kilometers, not inches. The experiment requires a high-quality laser, and a very sensitive detector, but it works.

July 20, 2005

here you go:

Google has got you covered

Make sure that you zoom all the way in. It gives some great detail and shows you the true composition of the moon.

Moon Coordinates

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