Cemetary Caching?

June 6, 2005

There are really two issues going on here that I can discern amid all of the name-calling and nasty attitudes --

1. Should a cache be placed in a cemetery to begin with?

2. If a cemetery has a cache, should I hunt for it?

I think these two things require thought and consideration on both the owner's and the seeker's part.

In reference to the first -- I have no problem with someone putting a cache in a cemetery as long as they have adequate permission and it's done tastefully. That leaves a lot of room for interpretation, I know. What's "tastefully done" to you might not be the same to me. I'm just saying an owner should put some thought into it before he/she places a cache in a cemetery -- perhaps more thought than one would put in to a cache in a park or something similar. Then, if someone finds a cache that he/she thinks is in a bad spot, could cause problems, or is tacky in some other way, he/she can either report it to the owner or to the local reviewer, and (if the owner is cooperative) the placement could be discussed (reasoning behind it, the reason the hunter thought it was out of line, etc.) and hopefully a resolution could be reached. (Am I being too idealistic here?)

However, anyone seeking a cemetery cache needs to take some responsibility as well. Whether it's about the numbers or the experience or whatever (to each his/her own), I still think you need to be respectful. I personally would feel uncomfortable seeking a cemetery cache under any circumstances, so I will not do it. Some do not have a problem with it. However, if there is a funeral service going on at the time, or mourners are present, or if something about it just doesn't "feel right" to you before you start, then don't do it. Come back some other time. You can experience it / get the point for it later. If you're hunting for a cache and discover you're going to have to do something you're not comfortable with to complete it, then leave it. It's not worth it.

I also think I should say -- if, after you find a cache, you wish you hadn't, that doesn't make you a bad person, it just means you should think about it a little more carefully the next time you attempt a cache like that, or maybe you shouldn't try any more caches of that sort.

Point is -- if you want to put a cache in a cemetery, think carefully before you do it. How will this be percieved? What's my reasoning for doing this? And if you're seeking a cache in a cemetery, be respectful of others who may be there and of the cemetery grounds.

Edited June 6, 2005 by RandLD

June 6, 2005

There are some areas that seem to have more cemetary caches than others. I just did one in Indiana the other day and the place was empty. Not a living soul so to speak. I have never had a problem with cemetary caches. Lots of interesting stones, historical information, even some nice locations as in lake side cemetaries. It is just a matter of being respectful if others are around.

5.7k · June 6, 2005

No and no.

4.5k · June 7, 2005

Thanks for the ad hominem attacks and keeping the discussion on a high level.

Then explain to me how I'm wrong. Did you or did you not say how bad you felt after you did it?

Apparently, you changed your opinion afterwards, because of the way you felt. Otherwise, you thought it wrong before hand and you did it anyway. Neither reflects positively on you.

So, who introduced the personal aspect into the argument first?

Now, address the rest of that post.

Thanks for asking but I think I'll pass.

June 7, 2005

Thanks for the ad hominem attacks and keeping the discussion on a high level.

Then explain to me how I'm wrong. Did you or did you not say how bad you felt after you did it?

Apparently, you changed your opinion afterwards, because of the way you felt. Otherwise, you thought it wrong before hand and you did it anyway. Neither reflects positively on you.

So, who introduced the personal aspect into the argument first?

Now, address the rest of that post.

Thanks for asking but I think I'll pass.

(throws popcorn at screen)

Edited June 7, 2005 by Marcie/Eric

June 7, 2005

I know I am treading on dangerous ground here, but let me throw a new light on this discussion:

For my example, I will use the city of New York, NY (pop. ~ 19,000,000). The average mortality in the US is roughly eight people per 1000 population. That means in New York City roughly 152,000 people die per year. Based on that, over the last 100 years, over 15,200,000 people have died. (I am assuming that rise in population over the last 100 years roughly cancels decrease in mortality rate.)

Arlington Cemetery contains roughly 260,000 graves and covers over 200 acres. Based on this, there must be cemeteries surrounding NYC equivalent to over 11,000 acres. (And that only covers the last 100 years!) Anyone in the NYC area can tell you that there are NOT 11,000 acres of cemeteries in the area.

So . . . . where are the bodies? They are everywhere. Most people walk on (what was once) graves almost every day. Think about a place like the United Kingdom, where we are talking about thousands of years. They have built graveyards on top of graveyards on top of graveyards. How long were Native Americans in this region before we set foot here? Where did they bury their dead?

I know this is an issue that evokes a lot of emotion, but apply a little common sense to the issue. Those who think "they better not play ball on my Grandpa's grave", better realize that in another 100 years, that grave will be nothing more than a memory. Population growth dictates development and development (even with the best of intentions) will result in the LOSS of many of these cemeteries.

Let us not make a mountain out of a mole-hill. We can be respectful and sensible at the same time.

June 7, 2005

Well, people do get cremated, too.

24.7k · June 7, 2005

Well, people do get cremated, too.

This is a digression but: Cemeteries are a temporary luxery. If we humans will be here as close to forever as we will get, we need to eat, we need to live, and it would be nice if we could stretch our legs. Cemeteries can only grow, at some point they have to stop growing as the rest of the land are filled up with people farming, living, and maybe even stretching in a park or two. At some point after that if we don't keep our population in check we will have to creamate those buried and plow under the cemeteries to eat and live.

This won't happen in the next 20 years, but sooner or later it's something the human race will face. We should enjoy the luxury of cemeteries while we can.

2.6k · June 7, 2005

This won't happen in the next 20 years, but sooner or later it's something the human race will face. We should enjoy the luxury of cemeteries while we can.

Americans will have to face it more than most; we have more elaborate and more permanent burials for ordinary folk than many cultures. As far as I know, we more or less invented burial as we know it now, certainly modern embalming and cement vaults and so on. Cremation is already more common than burial in many places.

June 7, 2005

I have thought of putting out a cemetary cache as there is an old area that has a lot of history. I have done a lot of genelaogy reasearch so visited my share of cemetaries.

I also know from personal experience that the public can have a lot of opinions about what should happen in the cemetary. Your visit need not always be a sad and mournful experience. What about the things you can learn about the lives of those who have gone before us.

I think that if geocacher goes to a site and uses it as a learning tool about history and maybe unique stones and inscriptions that would be a "good thing".

Grave stones used to be a way for people to record history and show off info about their family.

I know of one tin stone in a local cemetary that was used to hide a bottle during prohibition times. I bet it was a popular grave!!!

I guess it is up to the goecacher wether he wants to set one out and get premission and also the seeker whether ot go there or not.

There is avery neat virtual In Maine that one might want to check out. a lot of history to this one... "Witch's Leg".

geosmiles to all

20.7k · June 7, 2005

So, this threads gone four pages. Seems like it could have gone about four posts.

'I think this.'

'Well, I disagree.'

'OK.'

Does anyone expect to change anyone's opinions here? Why don't we have a nice little firearms debate, instead?

June 7, 2005

If you can't spell cemetery you shouldn't be allowed to cache in one.

Edited June 7, 2005 by babybat

20.7k · June 7, 2005

carp

24.7k · June 7, 2005

If you can't spell cemetery you shouldn't be allowed to cache in one.

If nothing else, the SC house bill taught me how to spell it. That ain't how I say it, but that's English.

June 7, 2005

Personally I would never do a cache in a cemetary--just too creepy to think of all those dead bodies right there. I guess if the cache is away from the burial sites and near the fence, woods, etc., it's really not a big deal. I still don't know why anyone would want to spend anymore time in a cemetary than they have to. There'll be plenty of time for that eventually.

2.6k · June 7, 2005

If nothing else, the SC house bill taught me how to spell it. That ain't how I say it, but that's English.

Now, if you could only get that "of" and "have" thing straightened out, RK, you'd sound like a Rhodes Scholar.

2.3k · June 8, 2005

I like caching.

I like cemeteries.

I like caching in cemeteries.

I just don't like how the caches are buried so deep.

Also- the containers are are nice and big, but the contents usually leave much to be desired.

Just kidding about the last 2.

I think it should be ok as long as no damage is caused. Just like any other place. Cemeteries are places for us to remember those who have come before. If no one visits them, then who will remember?

4.5k · June 8, 2005

Well, people do get cremated, too.

This is a digression but: Cemeteries are a temporary luxery. If we humans will be here as close to forever as we will get, we need to eat, we need to live, and it would be nice if we could stretch our legs. Cemeteries can only grow, at some point they have to stop growing as the rest of the land are filled up with people farming, living, and maybe even stretching in a park or two. At some point after that if we don't keep our population in check we will have to creamate those buried and plow under the cemeteries to eat and live.

This won't happen in the next 20 years, but sooner or later it's something the human race will face. We should enjoy the luxury of cemeteries while we can.

I've thought of that point before and it's really not that bad depending on where you live of course. NYC is congested; people tend to send their dead, loved ones to New Jersey where there's more room. but if you live in SOuth Dakota, I doubt if there will be a problem. As an exercise if you figure the world at 5 billion souls and gave them about 20 square feet to be buried in (let's say 7 by 3 rounded off) that's 100 billion sq feet. Figuring a square mile at 25 million (rounded off) that's 4000 square miles or a about the size of Connecticut a state that's 48th largest of the 50. Alaska the largest by comparison has 570,000 or enough area for 145 burial plots for the entire world.

Now all you need is permission and you have all that area for caching.

Edited June 8, 2005 by Alan2

2.1k · June 8, 2005

1. Should a cache be placed in a cemetery to begin with?
2. If a cemetery has a cache, should I hunt for it?

Possibly

Depends

I have placed two cemetery caches, one requires you enter the grounds the other is on the outside of a boundary fence, encouraging the visitor to enter and study the local history.

Haven't read any disapproving logs yet. Haven't read any disapproving logs on the pages of the many cemetery caches I have visited. Maybe I'll give this subject more consideration if I actually find objection at a cemetery cache I visit, or at mine.

Came here to see if there was any convincing discussion that would lead me to archive my cemetery caches. Not going to archive them yet. Perhaps later on.

June 8, 2005

I have two caches in cemetaries myself. One a revolutionary era site that has all but been forgotten. It has a lot of people to do with local history are buried there but most people don't know about the place.

I put the cache there to make people aware of the area. Years and years of neglect have taken its tole on the site.

Phifer's Legacy

I have been made aware of many old cemetaries because of geocaching and for that I am thankful.

Done tastefully and with respect, I see no problem.

Mr & Mrs. Loggerhead

Loggerhead's Web Site

June 9, 2005

Me and my father get into this argument every time we go caching, should you cache in cemetaries or not? Well myself owning two caches in cemetaries I say that as long as you post on your cache page Do Not Be Disrespectful or walk on graves. And put that these things are unnecessary to get to the cache then it is up to the cacher, if he is a rude individual with no respect then he doesnt need to be there anyway, as long as you respect others loved ones and cache in a proper manner at cemetaries then I see nothing wrong with it. Some people like to look at head stones also, once I was at a cemetary searching for a cache and I came upon a grave that said "Soul survivor of General Custors Stand" I thought that that was just amazing, so I guess it is just up to the cacher.

June 9, 2005

This may be a bit off topic, but...

Please read this genealogical website regarding how some other, older, more crowded cultures care for their overcrowded cemetaries.

As a first generation American, I had an interesting time when my aunt from Germany came to visit (in the mid 1970's), and was horrified at the sad condition of some gravesites she saw while passing by a cemetary. My mother, knowing the difference between German and American customs (or realities) stopped in the cemetary and asked her to read the markers. My aunt was amazed at the years on the markers. Her comment was something to the effect of, "No wonder, there is no one left alive who knew this person to care to keep it up".

The time frame that I remember from my mother's and aunt's comments about the turnaround of precious grave space was on the order of 30 years.... the linked to website says 40 years... This reuse of grave space in Germany must go back to at least the turn of the prior century - I wonder how long?

More on topic...

With my very limited caching experience, we had a chance to go past an almost abandoned cemetary - the cache was nearby. I think the CITO concept in this situation was very approproriate. Going through it gave me and my family something to think about in terms of imagining the lives of the people who had been buried there. By CITOing we were also able make the area more beautiful (couldn't do much about broken or tilting headstones), thereby respecting both the dead and the people who at one time wanted to honor them.

June 9, 2005

I used a cemetary as part of a clue cache. To find the coordinates to the final you need to make a calculation based on a date on a particular headstone. I picked one that the person died 50 years ago. Believe it or not, one cacher was writing down the date when the daughter of the deceased showed up! They had a great conversation about the man, who turned out to be a policeman killed in the line of duty. You never know what interesting things you will learn when you go geocaching.

June 9, 2005

This is my one and only reply as to how caching in cemetaries should be done. It gets people to the cemetaries to see people they might not have known about, without disrupting the cemetary. Daisies.

June 9, 2005

I don't see a problem with it. Beautiful and interesting places that make you think and reflect, which also have some historical signifigance...Nope, definatly wouldn't want to go there! Then again, I don't really see the problem of walking over someone's grave, they are afterall double boxed, under atleast 6' of dirt, and you weigh a lot less than the mowers they run there regularly or the backhoe that was used to tamp the dirt down after planting. Just be respectful toward the "residents", try not to freak out anybody, and if you see any employees say hi.

I guess my perspective is a little off though. My great-grandfather was the grounds keeper for the largest cemetery in Indiana and lived on the grounds of it for most of his life. My grandmother was born, raised, got married, and sadly was interred, all there on the grounds. My father (the other half of Double Agents) and my involvement with it has been more limited though. Mostly only visiting some of the "residents" several times a year, and often spent many hours wandering, trying to learn about the people there, reflecting, and enjoying the beauty...

Placing geocaches in a graveyard would be a great way to bring attention to them, and I think most of us got into this for the areas geocaching takes you rather than the "pointless point" you get when you log a find. A lot of these places could use some extra visitors, even if you just straighten up some stuff and CITO. Atleast your cache is less likely to get swiped by a muggle!

To me, caching in a cemetery would be kinda like doing one of the caches at the Indy 500; it's perfectly fine, BUT don't do it when you know there will be huge crowds (memorial day, 4th july, Veterans day...) (for the track example anytime one of the races is in town) or when someone might notice. Just remember, if you see can see anybody who looks like a visitor or if there's a "green tent" within sight of the waypoint, wait until later to find and log that one! As you've seen from the SC fiasco, it's not worth the attention.

*shrug* It all comes down to: If you like the idea, go; if you don't like the thought of possibly learning some history someplace where you would normally be too focused on something else, just because there are some non-living people there, then by all means don't go. Just be respectful, especially if someone above ground might be watching.

7.2k · June 9, 2005

<steps down and offers soapbox to next person>

Who the heck could top that? Very well said!

5.3k · June 12, 2005

For a Christian cemetery, geocaching (with permission) should be no problem at all; Christians don't do ancestor worship. Those who consider that it is "disrespectful" should read a little history of Christian attitudes toward the dead (as well as some theology). Consider, for example, the Catacombs in Paris.

I am not as familiar with other religions; but I would expect that geocaching in a Shinto cemetery would be completely unacceptable. Likewise, geocaching on some Native American burial grounds would also be inappropriate.

That's all stuff I've been meaning to write on the subject for some time. But my main point is this:

I have discovered an interesting issue with cemetery caches.

I did this cache last week while I was in Barcelona. Great cache, and highly recommended.

However, at the second stage I had a hard time finding the required numbers, and, as it happens, there was an (ahem) new resident (cough) nearby. :laughing: That distinctive odor was a little distracting during the half-hour it took me to find the perfectly obvious date I needed for the next stage!

Actually, the whole thing added to my enjoyment of the cache... gave a little more of the intended "atmosphere" (pun intended). But doing caches in cemeteries, especially those with crypts, can be interesting... :laughing:

June 12, 2005

When we do Cemetery caches my kids will look around for the graves that are marked with flags and then write to there Uncle who is serving over seas and tell him how many they found and what wars they were in.

June 12, 2005

However, at the second stage I had a hard time finding the required numbers, and, as it happens, there was an (ahem) new resident (cough) nearby. That distinctive odor was a little distracting during the half-hour it took me to find the perfectly obvious date I needed for the next stage!

Actually, the whole thing added to my enjoyment of the cache... gave a little more of the intended "atmosphere" (pun intended). But doing caches in cemeteries, especially those with crypts, can be interesting...

Ewww... I thought they sealed those things airtight.

5.7k · June 12, 2005

When we do Cemetery caches my kids will look around for the graves that are marked with flags and then write to there Uncle who is serving over seas and tell him how many they found and what wars they were in.

WOW! That sounds like a real motivator. Funny as hell. :lol: "Enjoy the Snickers bar Uncle Freddy."

Edited June 12, 2005 by Team cotati697

June 14, 2005

Come to Toledo, Ohio to see historic Woodlawn Cemetery. Yes, you can do Edward Drummond Libbey (GCM7GH) who with his wife, Florence, endowed the Toledo Museum of Art. You can see the loving grave of little Josie McCarty with her faithful dog Tip. You'll find Mrs. Ludwig's chair, Medal of Honor recipients, a Union general, soldiers from every war, awesome stained glass windows by Tiffany, and just plain folks. There's a not-yet-used mausoleum upon which the owner had carved "This wasn't my idea." There are even two adjacent graves of someone named Harley and someone named Davidson. This is a vibrant place for the living; a place of beauty, serenity and a very deep sense of history. Geocaching can't touch it. The great majority of us will always honor our dead. Little Josie McCarty can reach out from the past and still move us after all these years.

June 14, 2005

I think when I die I will have an ammo box cemented into the top of my tombstone. At lest that way I will be assured to have dozens of visitors a year to my grave site.

Sounds good to me.

June 15, 2005

Tacky and disrespectful. And probably illegal as cemetaries are private property. And against caching rules about placing caches on private property without permission. But lots of cachers do it. Check you concience and if it bothers you don't do it.

There are a *lot* of cemeteries that are public property.

June 15, 2005

There's nothing wrong with a cache in a cemetary. The scarier the better for me. We love night caching but we can't find enough here in Dallas/Ft Worth. Been to a few cemetary caches. Just pay your respects thats all.

June 16, 2005

We have one cache in a South African cemetery that I know off (GCP64K, Konsentrasiekampkerkhof). I feel it is totally expectable in a case like this. The cemetery is an old cemetery with graves of mostly young children that perished in the South African Boer war concentration camp. It was placed with the permission of the proprietor and if you read the logs you will find that all the log writers are touch by the location of this cache.

This cemetery cache reminds us of the horrors of war and concentration camp.

In cases like this there is nothing wrong with placing a cache in a cemetery

June 29, 2005

One of the things I have enjoyed most in my short time geocaching is the experience of being taken to a place I would have never gone prior to discovering this sport.

Among these are cemetaries. I live in an area with an abundance of "Pioneer" cemetaries that are in various states of upkeep. I doubt that anyone but geocachers are visiting some of these sites where people from the 17 and 1800's are buried. My kids enjoy looking at the graves; some of which are marked only with a piece of field stone.

I just want share two experiences that occured recently in cemetary hunts. My daughter and I happened upon a headstone that was made in the early 1800's; made of red sandstone that is prevalant in this area. It was small, uneven and tilted. The carving on the stone was obviously done by hand, (with great care) and there was a great deal of it. My daughter looked at it and said "this person must have really loved her to take so much time into carving the stone himself... it's too bad people still don't do that instead of buying stones that other people have done"

The other happened the other day when I was alone. I was having what I felt was a lousy day in a particularly difficult week and went out to grab a couple of quick caches. I arrived at a cemetary that was still somewhat cared for. The first stone I saw when I got out of the Jeep had three names side by side on it. The first was of a child who died Jan 11 1859 at age 1 yr 3mos, the second was the brother who died Jan 12, 1859 3 yrs 8 mos and the third was the sister who died Jan 14, 1859 5 yrs 3 mos. I stopped at that site and realized THAT was a lousy week and found myself admiring the strength of those two parents.

I don't recall whether or not there were trinkets in those caches, whether they were in ammo cans, film canisters or fake rocks... What I do remember is that those two experiences gave me new understandings about love and strength that I may not have seen in quite the same way had someone not placed a cache in that area. I doubt anyone buried in any of those graves would have a problem with someone learning those lessons in their presence. I can only hope that someday 200 years from now someone happens across my gravesite and learns something about themselves or life as a result of something they see or find there - maybe that is the nature of immortaility.

Cemetary Caching?

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