Cemetary Caching?

[+DAS&SAS]

Ok, let me first say that recently found a cache near an historic cemetary that was amazing. The cemetary had soldiers from as far back as the war of 1812. The cache was just outside the cemetary in a wooded area and it was a micro with just enough room for a log.

 

I am not against a respectfully placed micro cache near historic or famous cemetaries, but I also recently found a cache in a cemetary that was a small decon box hanging just three feet about a grave. As I was looking, a mourner, not a muggle, a mourner drove by. I was being respectfull, but I realized as I signed the log and put the toys that fell out back into the container that we cachers are trading trinkits over graves.

 

I'm relativily new to caching, so I just wanted to hear from some of you that have been doing this a lot longer than me (and those of you that just started too).

 

What do you think about cemetary caching?

Should gc.com set any rules specifically about cemetary caching?

If you have read the proposed SC law about this, what do you think about it? (don't address the SC law until you read it! found here -SC Law)

[+Jeep_Dog]

I have seen some cemetary caches very well done. Discreet, out of the way, and the cache/exchange of swag out of view of potential mourners. I have a habit of pausing to reflect and thank veterans' graves, so each cemetary cache that I go to I pay respects.

 

That being said, necrocaching, if not done well, can be icky. A cemetary cache can quickly Notzucht the concept of minimal impact to our environment. As such, they have to be done very well and with a bit of planning and consideration.

[CoyoteRed]

Well, if trading trinkets is the only thing you get out of a cemetery then what good is it?

 

I can think of only a couple of cemetery caches that weren't on the periphery of the grounds. By far the most will take through the cemetery and show you something interesting and you do your trading at a respectable distance.

 

At least some of the pictures the proponents of H3777 show with someone placing trinkets on headstones is from this cache. If you look at the pictures the "grave stone" is actually a marker which starts "Near this spot is buried..." So it's not even a grave there.

 

(I notice the owners have been a bit absentee. I guess I should go down and check it out.)

 

Anyway, the point is if the cache is respectful and the vast majority of them are, then there is no reason to restrict them. Being a good neighbor really should be part of what guides one when placing a cache and that doesn't apply to just cemeteries.

[twjolson & Kay]

For normal caches, absolutely not! A cemetery is a place of respect and reflection, not trading toys. (I mean this as caches within the cemetary limits, not, say, in the woods near a graveyard, although if it meant walking through I doubt I would do a cache like that) If that was my grave, or a family memebers grave I wouldn't want people tramping through just for 3 dollar trinkets.

The only cache I would approve is one that's historical/educational. Something that shows you the life and times of a person.

[+lefty2448]

I am new to caching and was wondering when I read the SC debate why would someone put a cache in a cemetary. I wouldnt put one in a cemetary myself or cache one. IMHO there are so many other places to cache, why put the sport into a bad light by disturbing sacred ground. Just my .02 cents.

[+KoosKoos]

I don't have a problem with even regular, trading caches as long as they're discreet and won't require a lot of rummaging around to find. If it's near an actual gravesite, I think you should either be a family member or have permission from the family involved.

 

We have a local cache placed very near a gravesite and I didn't realize it at the time, but it's placed between two young boys that I knew. It certainly wasn't a normal cache run for me and the kids at that point and I enjoyed the change of pace.

 

Who says finding a cache and trading "treasure" isn't a form of reflection? I'd love to have geocachers visiting my grave and celebrating the life that they're enjoying after I'm gone!!

[CoyoteRed]

A cemetery is a place of respect and reflection, not trading toys.

Ummm, maybe for you.

 

Even the main sponsor of H3777 concedes that cemeteries have been used in the past much like parks. A place for the families to gather, have a picnic, celebrate life and the lives of those that have gone before.

[+briansnat]

I don't see an issue with caches in historic cemeteries away from graves. I do have a problem with caches in active cemeteries, especially if they are on or near graves. Not that there is any real harm done by it, but it really just doesn't look good for us.

 

A cemetery is a place of respect and reflection, not trading toys

 

For you maybe. Historically, cemeteries have been places for family picnics and and outings. The idea that they are reserved only for "respect and reflection" is fairly recent.

 

Despite that, today cemeteries are used by dog walkers, artists, historians, bird watchers, joggers, geneologists, curiosity seekers, photographers and others. I don't see why geocachers should be excluded as long as they are respectful.

 

IMHO there are so many other places to cache, why put the sport into a bad light by disturbing sacred ground

 

How are geocachers "disturbing" the sacred ground. We don't dig. We are no different from the many other people who use cemeteries (see above) and maybe a bit better because we'll trash out the cans left over from teen beer parties.

Edited May 19, 2005 by briansnat

[+CurmudgeonlyGal]

Jeep Dog: "Necrocaching"... I like it.

 

I don't have a problem with caches with a cemetery as the main focus... he||, I even own one.

 

I do, however, have some issues with caches that required you to rummage around, say, the flower holding cups at the top of the headstone or, you know, feel up a statue of Mary for a film cannister as you're searching for waypoints to find a final that's located somewhere other than in the cemetery proper.

 

I absolutely have a problem with caches where you find the container smack dab in the middle of the cemetery hidden under a fallen tree at the head or foot of someone's grave. We did one like that this weekend - a partially abandoned cemetery where many bodies had been moved out, but many were left. The cache was under the tipped roots of a fallen tree surrounded by many, many graves.

 

It has nothing to do with trinket trading, but poor taste, and a somewhat disrespectful nature in cache placement, and name choice of the cache itself. There were many other places that cache could have been put. Many other names that could have been chosen.

 

In the end I logged it as a find, but I don't feel good about it

 

It comes down to choice: if you don't like the cemetery caches... don't do them. If you like some, but not others, do the ones you like, but don't do the others. There are many that are extremely well done and it might be a shame to miss out on what you can find/see/read there.

 

Think beyond the box and the trinkets.

 

-=-

michelle

[+reveritt]

It's important to have respect for other people's deeply-held feelings. I am not offended by a cache in a cemetery, but I recognize that some other people certainly will be. I have seen a puzzle cache that required the finder to visit several cemeteries to gather information. The final was near--but not in--a cemetery. This seems like a reasonable approach to me.

 

Most cemeteries are private property. Others are municipal property. Either way, you should probably get permission to hide within the cemetery. It's hard for me to imagine that such permission could be obtained in most cases.

[+Ice_man]

I'd like to point out a very well done cemetary cache that takes you to several interesting points along the way. I don't want to give away any details in case there are people maybe hoping to do this one in the future.

 

Doc Holliday, Where Are You Now

 

I have lived in the town where the cache was placed since I was born (thats nearly 35 years for those counting.) and never knew about all the interesting graves in this cemetary.

 

As long it's well done and the cache placed appropriately, I'm all for it.

[+DAS&SAS]

I'm reading through the replies and I agree with most of you that a well done cemetary cache is respectfull and I have no problem with those caches.

 

No one seems to be answering the questions though - should gc.com put rules on cemetary caches?

 

What are your thoughts on the SC Law? Here are mine:

 

I have no problem with a regulation stating that permission must be granted to place a cache on cemetary ground, but I believe gc.com should do that, not the government. The real issue I have with the SC Law is that is doesn't make any distinction from the cache owner and the cache seeker when requiring permission. So, the owner may have permision to place the cache, but if I don't have permission to find it, I could be fined up to $100 and/or imprisoned for up to 30 days!

 

If gc.com imposes rules about cemetary caching - say a requirement to prove permission to cache on the grounds - would we be able to elimenate or reduce government involvement?

 

Maybe in SC, a cemetary cache placed with permission could post the permission on the site so finders can print it to take with them in case of run ins with the authorities...

 

The reason I bring this issue up at all is because I really was impressed with the one cache I found just outside the historic cemetary. I am very glad I did that cache and think it would be a shame for no one to visit those graves. I've lived within 5 miles of that cemetary for several years and I didn't even know it existed before geocaching. I enjoy geocaching a lot and do not want to see government step in and squash this great activity.

Edited May 19, 2005 by DAS&SAS

[+Jeep_Dog]

No one seems to be answering the questions though - should gc.com put rules on cemetary caches?

No.

 

Less is better. That is the beauty of this website and geocaching. The caching community is amazing in its ability to self-regulate, and GC seems to recognize this. If planned from the beginning to be as such, this was brilliant foresight.

 

What are your thoughts on the SC Law? Here are mine:

 

The SC law appears to be one written by someone with little understanding of geocaching. I have heartache about any law written in ignorance. Our elected officials should always remember their responsibility to draft legislation based on fact, not assumptions.

 

Unfortunately, there are certain emotional issues tied to cemetaries. I can readily sympathize with someone who witnessed a cache in poor taste and wanting to do something about it. The fix to this? Continue to build credibility in the caching community through self-policing and respect for the environment (either natural or human-made).

[+Team Dromomania]

Cemetary caches have taken me to several places where unusual graves are located or famous people may be buried. A lot of these are in small out of the way cemetaries. There is a lot of history buried in these places. For me, the whole purpose of a headstone is to have a memorial for that person buried. For brief moments of time I give many of these graves some thought about what thier lives may have been like. "Murdered by indians", "Died in birth", "Bowled a 300", "loving mother", "Killed in train wreak", and many others give little bits of history during their lives. I enjoy finding and visiting the old cementaries which geocaching has led me to.

 

As for the cache itself, I think the worst I've seen is one that has a holloween theme. But most are small micros whos main purpose is to get you to the interesting cemetary and graves.

 

Death means different things to different people. I wouldn't mind strangers visiting my grave or even walking across it to visit others. I don't like the idea of a dog doing its business on my grave. But in the end, the graves are for the living. I'll be long gone to that great geocaching place in the sky - or not!

[ATMouse]

Actually, one of my husband's and my favorite caches was in a cemetery - tastefully done. I was a history major in college and later at teacher of history and I have always loved old cemeteries to walk through. However, it is a sensitive subject and pawing through grave-related objects seems beyond tacky.

 

I agree that no more rules are needed and self-reflection is the answer.

[+Team Tigger International]

I like cemetery caches , they tend to teach me a lot about the history of the land I am walking on , In the Area I live in , these caches are very very well done , and even the cache page reflects upon the history of the cemetery and or some of the people that are resting there.

 

I think , the people resting there must enjoy a visit by others even cachers as at least they know they are not burried in the ground then forgotten about. I know I wouldn't mind a bit if anyone chose to pass by my stone and say Hi ! I would love it !

 

Some of these graves are very very old and most likely have been forgotten about as the families have moved on and grown etc. When they are visited by a cacher I think we all always show our respects .

 

I also know of two caches placed in one really Large Cemetery . This cemetery is also treated like a Park , when we were in this cemetery we seen joggers , and walkers and others just enjoying the view and the ability to reflect on the lives of these people burried here.

 

We have even seen cemeteries with picnic tables available to people

 

As far as gc.com needing to implement futher or special rules for caches placed in cemeteries , I just do not see the need .

 

Star

 

P.S... shocking I actually agree with CR and Briansnat on something !

[+Renegade Knight]

...No one seems to be answering the questions though - should gc.com put rules on cemetary caches? ...

You didn't propose any rules to comment on. As for SC it's too late for any rules that GC.com might make (and you have to sell all other listing sites on those rules) to have an impact.

 

I would not enjoy a cache directly on or too close to a grave. The cemetery caches that I have done have been neer a brooke, on the fence (magnetic on wought iron fence) and have been fine.

 

Having said that if a cache was meant to be there since the person interred is a geocacher then I don't really mind if they have the cache on the headstone or "too close". That's entirly because it's in accordance wiht the wishes of the person buried.

 

As a cache owner it's up to me to comply wiht the rules that my community has. GC.com rules are about listing my cache on GC.com.

 

i don't want my cache page to read.

 

Placed with permission of XXX

Permit good through YYY

Secondary permit from ZZZ

Agency approval on 987987

Police approval on 987978

OSHA approved on 87687678

Homeland security approved on 7652836

FBI Background Check passed on 9987239

The nearest sexual predator is 1.5 miles away accoring to a records search on 86876

 

On and this is a fun cache.

[+Team Cotati]

I am truly astounded that so many cemetary owners are willing to grant permission for caches to be placed on their property. To me cemetaries seem ideally suited for virtual caches.

Edited May 19, 2005 by Team cotati697

[Tahosa and Sons]

If done with care and placed where appropriate they can be a delightful cache.

 

And they also can be a good place for a virutal, but since virtuals have been deceased for awhile it is almost impossible to revive them.

[+DAS&SAS]

i don't want my cache page to read.

 

Placed with permission of XXX

Permit good through YYY

Secondary permit from ZZZ

Agency approval on 987987

Police approval on 987978

OSHA approved on 87687678

Homeland security approved on 7652836

FBI Background Check passed on 9987239

The nearest sexual predator is 1.5 miles away accoring to a records search on 86876

 

On and this is a fun cache.

although humorous, this comment is my fear - if we don't do something to police ourselves on tastless caches, then we might find a post like this one maniditor.

 

Several comments have been made that gc.com should not set rules b/c we should policy ourselves. Am I the only one that feels gc.com is us - and any rules put there are self-policing?

[+KoosKoos]

Several comments have been made that gc.com should not set rules b/c we should policy ourselves. Am I the only one that feels gc.com is us - and any rules put there are self-policing?

gc.com is a listing service, not us as in geocachers. Their guidelines are enforced by their reviewers, not the geocaching public.

 

Self-policing means other cachers pointing out if a cache is done in poor taste, in a bad location, etc., etc.

 

Now, that does open the can of worms of people saying: "if you think that cache is in poor taste, just don't do it" which doesn't really get to the root of the problem.

 

Rather than a new prohibition of cemetery caches, I'd be in favor of more efforts to educate hiders to the comments we're seeing here: be mindful of the area and non-cachers who may see you. Act accordingly.

[twjolson & Kay]

Even the main sponsor of H3777 concedes that cemeteries have been used in the past much like parks. A place for the families to gather, have a picnic, celebrate life and the lives of those that have gone before.

I don't want to get into a big long thing, but if the author of the SC bill really believed that graveyards were a place like a park in the past, they wouldn't be pushing to outlaw something like Geocaching now would they.

 

The key word in your sentance is "past", they may have been the same as a city park in the past, but nowdays they are quite differant. And while I will admit that not everyone shares the opinion that graveyards should be places or reflection and respect, not playgrounds, I do believe that most share that belief to some degree.

[+JohnnyVegas]

Well, heres the cemetary topic again,

There is nothing wrong with caches in cemetary. I have told Julie when my time comes it want a head stone with a cache hidden inside the headstone.

Edited May 19, 2005 by JohnnyVegas

[+lefty2448]

Wow, I have never heard of peeps using a cemetary as a park. I guess you learn something new every day. Thanks for the insight.

[+tabulator32]

i don't want my cache page to read.

 

Placed with permission of XXX

Permit good through YYY

Secondary permit from ZZZ

Agency approval on 987987

Police approval on 987978

OSHA approved on 87687678

Homeland security approved on 7652836

FBI Background Check passed on 9987239

The nearest sexual predator is 1.5 miles away accoring to a records search on 86876

 

On and this is a fun cache.

although humorous, this comment is my fear - if we don't do something to police ourselves on tastless caches, then we might find a post like this one maniditor.

 

Several comments have been made that gc.com should not set rules b/c we should policy ourselves. Am I the only one that feels gc.com is us - and any rules put there are self-policing?

You won't find a cache such as that originating from me.

 

If it came to regulation such as that, I would hang up my walking stick and go back to my other hobbies and interests.

 

Lets try REAL, REAL HARD to keep it from coming to that!

 

[+Team Perks]

I'm starting to think we should just have a general "Cemetery Angst" topic pinned at the top of these forums.

 

I've seen plenty of tastefully and respectfully hidden caches that take you to some very neat spots. It would be a shame to think of such beautiful and serene places could only be used by those too dead to truly enjoy them.

 

As for me...I'm going to ask that my ashes be placed in an ammo can in the woods.

[+Camper17]

I've only been caching for about 5 months but I've found caches in or near about 6 cemetaries. Some were regular, some micro, some virtuals. All nicely done. Usually I go caching with my 11 year old son, and when we do a cemetary cache I always remind him of where we are and to show respect. And at every single one that we have done we will linger a while and check out names and dates, etc. I'll point out how "those 2 were brothers who died in World War II" or "that child was only 4 months old when she died" or "that guy outlived 2 wives".

 

When I die, I want him to plant a cache at my grave so that all my geocaching friends will have to visit and get a smilie in the process.

 

Camper17

[+KoosKoos]

As for me...I'm going to ask that my ashes be placed in an ammo can in the woods.

Not a bad idea...I may do that too. But for my money, I'd rather my ashes be mixed in with some resin and cast as a travel bug! And it's have to be 2 or 3 bugs cause we all know how they like to go MIA!

[+Glenn]

It's important to have respect for other people's deeply-held feelings. I am not offended by a cache in a cemetery, but I recognize that some other people certainly will be. I have seen a puzzle cache that required the finder to visit several cemeteries to gather information. The final was near--but not in--a cemetery. This seems like a reasonable approach to me.

 

Most cemeteries are private property. Others are municipal property. Either way, you should probably get permission to hide within the cemetery. It's hard for me to imagine that such permission could be obtained in most cases.

It is my deeply-held feeling that there are far to many people on the road during rush hour. Please kindly refrain from using your motovehicles during these periods.

[Keystone]

I'm reading through the replies and I agree with most of you that a well done cemetary cache is respectfull and I have no problem with those caches.

 

No one seems to be answering the questions though - should gc.com put rules on cemetary caches? 

 

What are your thoughts on the SC Law?  Here are mine:

 

I have no problem with a regulation stating that permission must be granted to place a cache on cemetary ground, but I believe gc.com should do that, not the government.  The real issue I have with the SC Law is that is doesn't make any distinction from the cache owner and the cache seeker when requiring permission.  So, the owner may have permision to place the cache, but if I don't have permission to find it, I could be fined up to $100 and/or imprisoned for up to 30 days!

 

If gc.com imposes rules about cemetary caching - say a requirement to prove permission to cache on the grounds - would we be able to elimenate or reduce government involvement?

 

Maybe in SC, a cemetary cache placed with permission could post the permission on the site so finders can print it to take with them in case of run ins with the authorities...

 

The reason I bring this issue up at all is because I really was impressed with the one cache I found just outside the historic cemetary.  I am very glad I did that cache and think it would be a shame for no one to visit those graves.  I've lived within 5 miles of that cemetary for several years and I didn't even know it existed before geocaching.  I enjoy geocaching a lot and do not want to see government step in and squash this great activity.

There have been a lot of intelligent and insightful posts to this topic, including the one quoted.

 

My personal belief as a reviewer is that the existing listing guidelines are adequate to deal with the issues. Unlike schools, military bases and other off-limits locations, cemeteries don't rise to the level where a ban is needed. As a cache reviewer, I see cemetery caches placed with the permission and blessing of the cemetery caretakers -- those who recognize that geocachers are good people who will pick up litter, respect the place, appreciate the history, and report any trouble to the proper authorities. In another category of cemetery caches, the owner doesn't say anything specific about permission one way or the other, and in that case the reviewer assumes (per the guidelines) that "adequate permission" has been obtained. In this category of cemetery cache, it is evident from the cache description or a "note to reviewer" that the container is tastefully placed, well away from any gravestones/plots. In the woods behind the cemetery, in a common area like a parking lot -- these spots are different than pawing around a headstone. If the owner wants to feature an interesting headstone, they should set up a multicache or puzzle cache that uses information found on the headstone to lead the finder to the actual cache, hidden elsewhere. If Geocaching.com imposed a ban on cemetery caches, the many fine cache placements in these two categories would be lost to us.

 

A third category of cemetery caches are those hidden on, or very close to, a headstone or family plot. Regardless of whether a cemetery is publicly owned or privately owned, it's clear in these cases that the individual headstone and plot is property that's private to the family of the person buried there. In this case, the "private property" section of the Geocache Listing Guidelines already gives a volunteer cache reviewer the tool they need to question the appropriateness of the chosen hiding spot.

 

Those of you in my review territory know that, for several months, I've been leaving notes on many new cemetery cache submissions, asking the cache owner to please confirm how the cache is hidden, and to say that it's a respectable distance away from any grave plots/headstones. If the cache is close to an individual plot, I'll be looking to see clear proof of permission from the plot owner or the cemetery caretaker/owner.

 

I've had excellent cooperation from cache hiders in response to my reviewer notes on this issue. Frequent hiders now know to include the information in a "Note to Reviewer" when submitting their cache, thereby reducing delay. Once I'm assured that the cache is appropriately placed, I take the owner's good word on that, and I list the cache. If I was lied to, I'll discover that when I personally hunt the cache, or when a responsible geocacher brings a problem to my attention. In that case, the archive button is my friend.

 

Other reviewers follow roughly the same practice as I do; some have adapted my form letter for their own use. Some are even stricter regarding private property and permission. Some don't scrutinize such caches as carefully, for example, in a foreign country where laws and customs are different, or in a U.S. state where there's never been any controversy about inappropriate cemetery cache placements. There is room for flexibility and discretion here, if everyone uses common sense.

 

I started paying more attention to cemetery caches several months ago -- before the South Carolina legislation was introduced. I did this because of the frequency of complaints about inappropriate placements, and the sheer number of cemetery hides in my review territory, where they are quite popular. It's not unusual for me to see ten cemetery cache submissions in a typical week. I do *not* want one of my review States to be the "next South Carolina," and I really do appreciate the cooperation of the cache hiders around here to help make sure that this does not happen.

Edited May 19, 2005 by Keystone Approver

[+EleriandBlade]

Some of my family's favorite caches (I got my parents hooked on the sport) have been cemeteries. Not the usual well traveled ones, but the forgotten old ones that nobody visits, that are so overgrown with weeds you can barely see the stones, some of which date from the early 1800s. Often they'll go to these with the specific goal of finding out more about the people there, taking rubbings of the stones, and even cleaning up moss and debris.

[+BadAndy]

When skateboarding started to become popular, skaters would use empty public swimming pools, public benches, handrails in parks etc to skate on. This resulted in a public backlash towards skating. Eventually, most cities have banned skateboards in all but designated skate parks.

 

While most of us saw this as a good thing, the skaters didn't like to see their sport so heavily regulated and banned. They failed to regulate themselves, and left it to the politicians and cops to regulate them.

 

There was a time you could walk your dog just about any place you wanted. Many dog owners failed to scoop their dogs poo from the lawns of public parks. This resulted in dogs being banned or heavily regulated by many city and county govts. except in designated dog parks.

 

While most of us saw this as a good thing, many dog owners did not like to be banned from public parks. They failed to regulate themselves, and left it to the politicians and cops to regulate them.

 

When Geocaching began to become popular, many caches were placed in spots that were offensive to some people, such as cemetaries. Will we learn from other peoples lessons, or we fail to listen to the objections and wait for politicians to (over) regulate us?

 

We have restricted caches near airports, railroads, and private property (without permission). This was done not only because it was the right thing to do, but also to protect our sport from govt intervention. As issues such as cemetary caches arise, we need to weigh the placement of those caches against the greater risk of overzealous regulations.

 

The SC fiasco showed us that cemetary caches were used as a catalyst to propose new regulations on our sport, and historical locations were coattailed into the bans. If we wait to impose a restriction on cemetaries, will the next state include public parks in their version of a ban? Will they ban the sport outright?

[twjolson & Kay]

A cemetery is a place of respect and reflection, not trading toys.

Ummm, maybe for you.

 

Even the main sponsor of H3777 concedes that cemeteries have been used in the past much like parks. A place for the families to gather, have a picnic, celebrate life and the lives of those that have gone before.

First off, about the SC thing, if the main sponser truly believed that cemeteries use to be the same as a park, why would they be trying to pass a bill that outlaws something like Geocaching? They are hypocrites.

 

And second, yea, that's my opinion, this is a post asking for opinions. And while I'll admit that I take an extreme viewpoint; I do believe that most share it to a smaller degree. The key word in your post is "Past". Graveyards aren't places of recreation anymore. Things have changed. Now they are a place to visit loved ones, not play. They are a place to learn about the past, not trade trinkets. I have no problem with geocaching in a cemetery, as long as it's vitrual caches and you walk away learning something. But my I just can't justify walking all over someones grave just for a game.

 

Bottom Line: I believe keeping regular caches out of cemeteries is a good thing. First off out of respect for the dead. Even if your opinion differs from mine, you do not know what that person would have wanted, nor what their family would want. Second, the whole SC thing should teach us a lesson. Why should we give them ammo to restrict our sport? A cache in a graveyard isn't worth it if it costs us other places to cache as well.

[+sbell111]

While I'll leave the SC bill to the thread(s) devoted to it, I don't see a problem with caches in cemetaries.

[+BadAndy]

While I'll leave the SC bill to the thread(s) devoted to it, I don't see a problem with caches in cemetaries.

Respectful cachers would largely not see a problem with cemetaries either, just as respectful dog owners would'nt see a problem with walking their dog in a public park.

 

The problem comes when disrespectful cachers and dog owners get the attention of our politicians and landowners. The result is clear to see from a historical standpoint.

[+sbell111]

... The problem comes when disrespectful cachers and dog owners get the attention of our politicians and landowners. The result is clear to see from a historical standpoint.

interesting POV. Turns out I've found a few caches and a couple of those have been in cemetaries. I haven't found any disprespectful cemetary caches, however.

 

Now that I think about it, that's not true. I've found one that was disrespectful and it was very quickly archived and removed. Believe it or not, Andy, the system that is currently in place works.

[+briansnat]

Graveyards aren't places of recreation anymore. Things have changed. Now they are a place to visit loved ones, not play.

 

Really? Tell that to the joggers, bird watchers, artists, model plane enthusiasts and many other people who use them today.

 

But my I just can't justify walking all over someones grave just for a game.

 

Do you know that geocachers are walking over graves? There are paths and roads in these places.

 

They are a place to learn about the past...

 

And geocaches are a perfect way to do that. Many people are drawn to a cemetery because of a cache, but can't help learn a bit about the past while there.

Edited May 19, 2005 by briansnat

[RandLD]

Now that I think about it, that's not true.  I've found one that was disrespectful and it was very quickly archived and removed.  Believe it or not, Andy, the system that is currently in place works.

Here's my understanding of the problem in a nutshell (at least as it happened in S.C.)

 

NON-Geocachers found a cemetery site offensive for one reason or another. Instead of contacting Geocaching.com about it, they called their local representative. Instead of her contacting GC.com, she decided to sponsor legislation that would put strict regulations on it. (Well, she claims she tried to contact somebody, but nobody at GC.com has any record of it ...)

 

If we as geocachers find a cache that's disrespectful, in an "off-limits" area, etc., we have ways of handling it. The general population who doesn't know much about the sport may not know (or care to investigate) who to contact, thus leading to unnecessary legislation.

 

I'm not sure how something like this should be addressed. If the offended parties would take a minute to do some research, or even ask about it, the whole situation would have been taken care of. But you can't make the G.P. do something like that.

 

Back on the topic of the OP, I personally do not like cemetery caches and would never hide or even seek one. (Well, I might make an exception for virtual caches. I'm not sure about that ...) I don't know that we need to have more regulations, though. If we do, it should be up to GC.com, not the government.

 

I went into detail on this topic on this thread, if you care to read it.

Edited May 19, 2005 by RandLD

[twjolson & Kay]

briansnat:

I personally have never seen anyone doing any of those things at a graveyard, ever. And while that is just my observation none of those things require rummaging around and disturbing the area. (I am assuming a normal cache hidden).

And all the ones I've ever seen do not lend themselves to those activites. As well, they are usually crowded, and the amount of paths are either nonexistant or few.

I have nothing against geocaching in cemeteries, but let's just skip the normal kinds and stick to virtual. Why give our opponents more ammo? Why offend those families that don't share your viewpoint. That's their loved one, not yours. My point is that not hiding caches in graveyards is the safe road, one that won't hurt us. If we do hide caches in them, then things like SC are going to start cropping up all over the counry or even the world. It's just not worth it when we have so many other places to hide them.

[+sept1c_tank]

I feel akward caching in a cemetary if I have to (as someone else said) rummage to find something when I may be observed by muggles. Navigating through a cemetary with my GPS device in hand does not bother me in the slightest.

 

So, yes I enjoy cemetary caches, especially the isolated ones.

 

I don't think it is necessary to change, or add more rules to gc.com.

 

I think the SC legislation will not become law as it stands. But the civics lessons provided are invaluable. Most importantly, our community will be much better prepared when geo-legislation attempts occur again, as inevitably, they will.

[CoyoteRed]

You know something? I've yet to hear from anyone, anywhere, that a muggle was a offended that a geocacher was caching during their visit.

 

What we hear is that someone is offended that there is a "game" played in cemeteries. We hear that we are not trustworthy. We hear that we desecrate cemeteries by painting them, urinating in them, defecating in them, digging in them, or plundering them.

 

What we hear is actually the result of someone telling someone else we are doing bad things. What you hear is the product of lies.

 

Of course, the Black community would be up in arms when they are told we are digging up their ancestors and selling slave artifacts on eBay. Have we? Nope.

 

Of course, the Jewish community would be up in arms when they are told we are painting graves and defecating in their cemeteries. Have we? Nope.

 

Of course, the archeologist community would be up in arms when they are told geocachers are burying caches in sensitive archeologal sites. Have we? Nope.

 

Of course, by saying look at these other groups who think geocachers are bad then other groups will fall in line and believe the same lie.

 

The point is, the SC problem is not that we've actually done anything wrong. The problem is because folks have been lied to. It doesn't matter what we have or haven't done.

 

It's not about putting geocaches in cemeteries. Listen closely, it is because we create an online catalog of all these neat places. Period. End of story. They don't want you to know about these places. Pure and simple. They don't want physical caches. They don't want virtual caches. They don't want anything or anyone to know about these places. Why do you think there isn't a list of the archological sites? Because they want to keep it secret. Even the lists that are out, the locations are listed as secret.

 

The SC problem has nothing to do about respect in cemeteries. Nothing.

[+Team Cotati]

Well, heres the cemetary topic again,

There is nothing wrong with caches in cemetary. I have told Julie when my time comes it want a head stone with a cache hidden inside the headstone.

Yes Johnny that is what 'your' personal wishes happen to be. And unless you happen to be so fortunate to own your own personal cemetary, you likely will be co-residing with hundreds of other dearly departed. These dearly departed in all likelyhood also have loved ones who are left behind. There is IMHO, a possibility that they might have wishes that differ from yours. This is one reason why a complex society has rules and laws. We don't have to like them but we are obliged to abide by them.

[+Team Cotati]

Like I said before, cemetaries....the perfect place for virtual caches. Just like historical sites and many other interesting and educational locations.

Edited May 19, 2005 by Team cotati697

[+KoosKoos]

Well, heres the cemetary topic again,

There is nothing wrong with caches in cemetary. I have told Julie when my time comes it want a head stone with a cache hidden inside the headstone.

Yes Johnny that is what 'your' personal wishes happen to be. And unless you happen to be so fortunate to own your own personal cemetary, you likely will be co-residing with hundreds of other dearly departed. These dearly departed in all likelyhood also have loved ones who are left behind. There is IMHO, a possibility that they might have wishes that differ from yours. This is one reason why a complex society has rules and laws. We don't have to like them but we are obliged to abide by them.

And what if MY wishes are to not have stuffed animals in the public cemetary with me? or because I don't like wind chimes, no one else may place them in a tree over their plot? and what about those crazy Mexicans who keep having Dia de Muertos reunions a couple of plots over from mine???

 

If a cemetery is open to the public for "respectful" enjoyment, then I see no reason cachers can't also walk the grounds and reflect on what such a place means to everyone. And just because part of our enjoyment of the grounds means opening a small box to sign a log and maybe trade some trinkets, how is that in violation of anything?

Edited May 19, 2005 by KoosKoos

[+Team Cotati]

Well, heres the cemetary topic again,

There is nothing wrong with caches in cemetary. I have told Julie when my time comes it want a head stone with a cache hidden inside the headstone.

Yes Johnny that is what 'your' personal wishes happen to be. And unless you happen to be so fortunate to own your own personal cemetary, you likely will be co-residing with hundreds of other dearly departed. These dearly departed in all likelyhood also have loved ones who are left behind. There is IMHO, a possibility that they might have wishes that differ from yours. This is one reason why a complex society has rules and laws. We don't have to like them but we are obliged to abide by them.

And what if MY wishes are to not have stuffed animals in the public cemetary with me? or because I don't like wind chimes, no one else may place them in a tree over their plot? and what about those crazy Mexicans who keep having Dia de Muertos reunions a couple of plots over from mine???

 

If a cemetery is open to the public for "respectful" enjoyment, then I see no reason cachers can't also walk the grounds and reflect on what such a place means to everyone. And just because part of our enjoyment of the grounds means opening a small box to sign a log and maybe trade some trinkets, how is that in violation of anything?

I would say that that depends in large measure on just how well hidden the cache might be and where it might be hidden. A hide that might cause hunters to scrounge thru the landscaping or to unduly inspect the grave site and markers could possibly cause unnecessary distress amongst friends and family members of the deceased. This activity is not 'walking thru the grounds'.

[+bunkerdave]

The only problem I see here is that there are as many positions and opinions on a topic like this as there are people on the planet. I am a pretty open-minded guy, and even I can see where a lot of people would have a real issue with a cache being hidden in a cemetery. For that reason alone, I would not do it. There are just a lot of other, better places to do it. If someone is going to do it, at least place it away from graves so that those who decide to hunt it don't run the risk of appearing disrespectful to others. Geocaching is getting well-known enough that many folks know what we are doing as we wander around with GPS in hand. Ultimately, the deciding factor should be "how is this going to reflect on caching as a whole?" We are all ambassadors for the sport, with every person we talk to who knows what we are doing. This is true, whether you like it or not. We should take a lesson from the off-road vehicle users who are finding their playgrounds closed and shrinking because a minority of their number can't seem to respect the rules and other people. We certainly don't want to suffer the same fate.

[+sbell111]

...I am a pretty open-minded guy, and even I can see where a lot of people would have a real issue with a cache being hidden in a cemetery. For that reason alone, I would not do it. ...

... We should take a lesson from the off-road vehicle users who are finding their playgrounds closed and shrinking because a minority of their number can't seem to respect the rules and other people. ...

I hear you, but by your logic, no one should ever drive off-road because some people are irresponsible.

[+Team Cotati]

...I am a pretty open-minded guy, and even I can see where a lot of people would have a real issue with  a cache being hidden in a cemetery.  For that reason alone, I would not do it.  ...

... We should take a lesson from the off-road vehicle users who are finding their playgrounds closed and shrinking because a minority of their number can't seem to respect the rules and other people.  ...

I hear you, but by your logic, no one should ever drive off-road because some people are irresponsible.

And that is exactly why off-road driving is so highly restricted.

[+Team Cotati]

And BTW, I have in fact hunted at least one traditional cache in a cemetary. I have also hunted virtual caches in a cemetary. I will not be hunting a traditional cache in a cemetary again, it was wrong and I learned from that experience.

 

Will I visit cemetaries again for their historic and cultural value, of course. I did this before I ever owned a GPSr and will continue to do so.

[+Marcie/Eric]

I've never found a cemetary cache/virt.

 

But I can tell you this. Living in California, there are all kinds of old cemetaries from the gold rush towns and we never hesitate to stop at one whenever we see one, to look around, see the names, old stones, and the graves of children and families that died [mostly] as a result of widespread disease during and after the long wagon ride. I love old cemetaries, so to me, finding a cache at or near one is just an extra bonus.