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South Carolina Legislation Meeting


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This is venturing into the "not on topic" area, but you don't really own your body after you die. So yes, someone (a living person) can "own you" after you die. Usually it is your relatives who give you a proper burial. However, someone could theoretically not allow your relatives access to your grave.

 

I'm no lawyer so please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's okay,

 

I'm already owned by the credit card companies and the credit union.

 

 

Joe Smith

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... We should be respectful of that need and hold off on cemetary caches that are in the private areas of cemetaries.

What would normally be considered a private area of a cemetary? <_<

I was wondering the same thing.

 

The other day I found a cemetary cache. It was along side a brook that meandered through. As I sat down under the shade of a tree to sign the log I noticed three other activites taking place nearby. First a graveside service. Second a person using a backhoe to dig a hole, it's diesel humming away, and lastly a landscaping contracor turning on variouse sections of the sprinkler system and running all over the place marking which sprinklers needed replacing.

 

As I sat and took all this in, I wondered about the family and friends gathered around in the distance and who they were there for. Then I wondered about if it was right or wrong that some people were there just doing their job while that service was going on. I decided that it really was ok. There was a job to do. However in that moment only the mourners and myself were there as society generally intends people to be there.

 

No I don't think that geocaching and geocachers should have a generic ban any more than I would ban that backhoe, a jogger enjoying the peace and quiet, or the noisy kids of morners.

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A park is generally owned by the State, County or a City. No cache should be placed in any park without talking to the person who is responsible for that park.

 

But we are discussing how Geocaching people are behaving in cemeteries. Read the posting for April 7, 2005 about what was heard and seen at the meeting. We should all be ashamed.

 

Sometimes it is good for someone to play the "Devil's Advocate" in an intelligent debate.......When you are misinformed and you post something like this....hummm...it disturbs me....you drop the "Advocate" from the above description.

 

Its really about the uninformed or the misinformed. We are all feeling the frustration of being judged by uniformed or misinformed people. For the informed, the legislation seems absurb and an extreme waste of tax payer's money, as there are already laws in place for mis-behavior in these areas. I know I spent a month on the website reading rules, regulations, forums, and attending meetings before signing up for an account so that I would appear "knowledgable". And I must admit, that it was probably a year (and a 100+ hrs on the web) of doing so before I REALLY had a grasp of all the rules and etiquette before I could really say I knew what geaocaching was all about! WE ALL know how benign and even benevolent this activity is! We are the experts, however. These reps don't have the time nor the inclination we all have put into this to get a total grasp of the sport. A few do the research and are intelligent enough to make a fair decision (which is really what they get paid for!); they are the minority. Geocaching is something that is hard to explain in a paragraph. You have to experience it! How many of you have been in a gathering and overheard a non-caching friend of yours try to explain the sport for you to someone else. It gets mangled and you have to intervene. We need a description that is detailed and intelligent, yet succinct as possible. Our ability to properly convey our side of the arguement is the largest pitfall facing us.

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...someone could theoretically not allow your relatives access to your grave.

 

I'm no lawyer so please correct me if I'm wrong.

An Indiana cacher/law enforcement officer told me this past weekend that (in Indiana) it is unlawful to deny access to a graveyard. According to him, even if a graveyard is on or surrounded by private property, anyone must be allowed access. <_<

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I suppose that Ceips and her minions would think it wrong to have lunch in a cemetery, at one of the picnic tables that was placed there by the management. The pictured table also is a convenient place to sit down and sign the logbook after finding the geocache that is a few feet away.

 

A friend's brother was killed a few years ago and is buried in a cemetery near where I work. The brother loved playing frisbee. Every year on his birthday, his family visits his grave and throws frisbees to each other in the area around his grave.

 

I often buy a take-out lunch and sit in my truck in that cemetery to eat it. It's a peaceful place away from, but in the middle of, the hustle and bustle of the city. And yes, I've even sat there eating my lunch while ceremonies were going on.

 

Is any of that disrespectful? I think not.

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Here's something to throw into the discussion. I enjoy both geocaching and genealogy. In my genealogy research I have benefitted from others who have documented old, neglected cemeteries where I've found some of my ancestors. As a way of "giving back", I decided to find and document a forlorn cemetery in my area.

 

In the town where I grew up there is such a cemetery, that I remembered visiting as a kid. A few years ago someone placed a (now virtual) cache there, which I visited. Visiting this cemetery again as a geocacher confirmed in my mind that I must document and research this cemetery, and make the results public. About a year ago I did this - see the links below.

 

Anyway, I think it would be great if other geocacher/genealogists did the same for undocumented, forgotten cemeteries in their area. With websites like Ancestry.com and Rootsweb.com, this is relatively easy to do. It is a lot of fun as well, especially learning the stories about the people. If you enjoy a good mystery, like local history, and have a bent for figuring things out, I guarantee that you would have fun doing this.

 

GCD287 Old resting grounds

 

Web page I created on Rootsweb. Be sure to visit the links on this page.

 

My dad and I even made a detailed map of the cemetery using a tape measure and a compass, recording the position of each marker in polar coordinates (angle and distance). In Excel I was able to plot a map of each marker, which turned out to be amazingly accurate (Data and Map)

 

Anyway, this was a little time consuming but a lot of fun, and will be something that lives on way past me.

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Here's something to throw into the discussion. I enjoy both geocaching and genealogy. In my genealogy research I have benefitted from others who have documented old, neglected cemeteries where I've found some of my ancestors. As a way of "giving back", I decided to find and document a forlorn cemetery in my area.

 

Speaking of the above take a look at this virtual that is my favorite cache. It is very well written and tours you around the Savannah area and ends in a much visited cemetary.

 

The below link is the epitome of why GPSr's should be allowed in cemetaries

 

The creator of the above cache is a business owner and in his spare time an historian and preservationist (oh, and of course a dreaded Geocacher). He and his wife have marked over 790 soldiers graves in Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Colorado, North Carolina, and Louisiana. They have place headstones on the unmarked graves and marked the spots (and they probably used the dreaded GPS somewhere along the way!) Here is his personal web page. VERY impressive. Do legislators REALLY want to prevent people from doing this extensive, exhaustive, expensive, and much needed volunteer activity!

Edited by Tool Team
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I suppose that Ceips and her minions would think it wrong to have lunch in a cemetery, at one of the picnic tables that was placed there by the management. The pictured table also is a convenient place to sit down and sign the logbook after finding the geocache that is a few feet away.

 

I think we'd all hate to have this picture taken out of context, but I totally agree with your post. Unfortunately, death and life issues tend to spread people evenly across across a continuum of opinion.

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All this talk about cemeteries and that cemeteries are only for bereavement.

 

When I was in elementary school we would go to a very historical cemetery and make rubbings of the old graves. Our teachers made the rubbings thus showing us how to do it. We were touching the stones!! Nobody thought anything of it. Our teahcers would stand up on the larger monuments in order to be seen by all of the students while telling us historical lessons and pointing out directions where certain folks were buried. We were to find these folks tombstones and make the rubbings. I remember doing that 5 or 6 times on various cemetery field trips. I am certain that no permission was obtained and nobody thought we were doing anything wrong!!

 

Check out this APPALLING activity that is going to be held in my hometown of Elizabethtown, Kentucky!! (at the same cemetery I visited as an elementary student) . OH the thought of it!! Having fun in a cemetery!! THAT'S NOT RIGHT!!

 

http://www.etownheritage.org/upcomingevents.htm

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Baruba Juba, I'll second your sentiment. In reading this over, I can't understand why the geocachers at the first meeting looked at these rather tame pictures and agreed that they were appalling and "indefensible". That point should never have been conceded. When I read that article my response was:

 

Is that IT? This is the WORST thing they could find? Somebody called it a boneyard, someone touched a tombstone, and somebody took some pictures? Presumably there were many cemetery caches across SC and clearly the bill's proponents have clearly gone to great lengths to find the worst of the worst of the hundreds of visitors to these sites, and out of all those hundreds of visitors all they could find were a few pictures of graves and some people touching the tombstones. If that doesn't indicate how most geocachers have great respect for the land they visit, I don't know what does. As far as I'm concerned they just proved why this bill isn't necessary, especially given the fact that cemeteries are regularly being vandalized by youngsters or squatted in by homeless people. Cemeteries have far bigger concerns to address than somebody taking a picture of a tombstone. I'm not blind to the concerns of those that brought the bill forward, but I believe the problem has been blown out of proportion, and the bill is disproportionately severe to the level of offense.

 

Cemeteries are places for public activity beyond just mourning. Mt Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge is famous the country over for birdwatching. There are hundreds of birdwatchers walking its paths every day with binoculars and video cameras.

 

A local cemetery where I live is treated much like a preserve, which is to say, people don't have picnics or play frisbee there, but they do go walking there every day, by the dozens. Some of them walk their dogs, and occasionally the dogs deffecate there. Hopefully the owners clean up after them but I have to believe that a dog deffecating on a grave would be considered a far worse offense than anything the proponents of this bill brought forward. Are there no dog walkers in SC cemeteries?

 

Geocaching is pretty much synonymous with hiking. It is only when one reaches the hiding spot of the cache that one has to begin poking about. That said, I personally believe that caches shouldn't be hidden anywhere near graves. Therefore I think cemeteries are great places for virtual caches or as clue gathering stages for mystery or multicaches, but the actual cache box should be outside the cemetery, or in a portion of the cemetery where there are no graves within 80 feet.

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I hate to sound like a broken record, but I would like to remind everyone who is new to this thread, this bill is not just about cemetaries. This bill will also ban historic sites as well, this will inlcude portions of or entire districts, towns, cities, and counties. Which will include hundres of thousands of acres of land.

 

When you write a letter to the SC house please keep this in mind. When one of the sponsors of the bill was at the podium all she could talk about was cemetaries. Glossing over the larger impact that this bill will have. As well failing to explain how exsisting laws regarding all ready deal with issues of tresspassing, littering, and vandalism.

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When I read that article my response was:

 

Is that IT? This is the WORST thing they could find? Somebody called it a boneyard, someone touched a tombstone, and somebody took some pictures? Presumably there were many cemetery caches across SC and clearly the bill's proponents have clearly gone to great lengths to find the worst of the worst of the hundreds of visitors to these sites, and out of all those hundreds of visitors all they could find were a few pictures of graves and some people touching the tombstones. If that doesn't indicate how most geocachers have great respect for the land they visit, I don't know what does. As far as I'm concerned they just proved why this bill isn't necessary, especially given the fact that cemeteries are regularly being vandalized by youngsters or squatted in by homeless people. Cemeteries have far bigger concerns to address than somebody taking a picture of a tombstone.

 

You hit the nail right on the head. You might want to e-mail this to some of those representatives.

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Making a compelling, informative, coherent and cohesive presentation that will sway an audience's opinion is a skill in the realm of experts.

 

Just as the layperson should never represent himself before a court, neither should the layperson attempt to represent geocaching before a legislative body.

 

Geocacher statements and pleas are important, but only a professional can fully articulate our case.

 

Put your money down, hire a lobbyist, give him or her the education they need and let 'em at it - it's what they do, and they can do it better than any of us.

 

I do not believe this legislative body to be against geocaching or geocachers. They are, however, still quite in the dark about our game and its players, and more prone to listen to a collegue than trust the unknown. A lobbyist can educate them and develop a trust relationship.

 

This is in NO way a slam at the folks who have contributed their time and effort so far - if not for you this bill would have long ago been passed. If I lived in SC I would be right in there with you! But the base fact is we can hurt ourselves more than help.

 

With the passing of this bill in some form apparantly all but assured, it is time to reach out for a lobbyist to represent our cause. I believe that we should have done it when it was first recommended.

Ed

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David I did get your email and note your and others concerns about the geocaaching bill. I think it is too broad although I believe our cemetaries need greater protection. If the bill is appropriately amended I will support it. Otherwise I plan to vote against it.

 

This is the reply I just got after writing my rep several times. It was from Ben Hagood I did write him one more time and again invite him to come geocaching with us as well as tell him how geocachers can actuall help police if you will thes forgotton cemitaries. It seems like it is the cemitarie thing that is the motavation here. I also mention how the pictures he saw are now known to be from another state. And how cemtaries is only a small part of what this bill is about.

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geoholic, you know how it is. You walk in to work in the morning and punch in on the time clock. Then, off to get coffee, use the restroom, have a smoke, talk to coworkers at the water cooler... Government is no different.

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We're second to last, on page 19 again.

 

Anyone have theories on why we always get pushed to the back of the calendar?

I've been curious about this to. I assuming its a procedural/Roberts Rules of Order thing. Anyone out there more familiar with govenrment operations that can answer this care to fill us in?

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The only thing I now know about our government in SC is that they waste alot of time. Mindless introductions and resolutions, endless free breakfasts, lunches, dinners and social events, and poorly worded bills/laws. They adjourned early the other day, cutting short debate on the Criminal Domestic Violence issue so some members could make it to a basketball game with NC legislators. They are out of control .... too many list their occupation as "full-time legislator". Truly sickening.

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This is not an SC-specific occurence, Cole.

 

Check this out, in the Federal Government, they can phone most votes in from their office. Do you think the representatives are the ones *always* hitting the button from there?

 

American politics (not necessarily the politicians), in general, are very slow, inordinately overblown with procedural antiquity, and highly manipulative (back scratching, trumped-up testimonials, acceptance of poor statistical veracity, etc).

 

What you see on the camera feed is just an example of what goes on, more than anything. And much like this forum, people come and discuss things in the State House, but for the large majority (if not all of them), their vote is pre-decided by a number of other factors for each of them. Their "debates" don't do much except to expose one another as misinformed, liars, or someone to get to co-sponsor your next idea. I'd like to know if any polling of the house members has taken place regarding the geocaching bill? I know a number of representatives have already made their intentions known, but I don't know that we have a good summary of it to see where we stand. The first thing we'll need is more than the co-sponsors to vote against it. The second is enough other representatives that will be present when it is voted upon.

 

As for why we're last on the schedule each day, my *guess* (I'd have to take another look at the calendar again) is that it's ranked by priority of date (last action taken, maybe?), priority of committee, or priority of bill number (in order of date introduced). Those are just my educated guesses.

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This is venturing into the "not on topic" area, but you don't really own your body after you die. So yes, someone (a living person) can "own you" after you die. Usually it is your relatives who give you a proper burial. However, someone could theoretically not allow your relatives access to your grave.

 

I'm no lawyer so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not to be argumentative, but, many people do purchase the actual cemetary plot on which their loved ones are buried.

 

I am not in support of the bill on which they are voting and I believe existing laws are sufficient to protect the cemetaries (they may need to be ENFORCED a bit more to protect them from the real problematic people who would urinate on and destroy grave markers) but there is no need to try to "protect" them from geocachers.

 

Having said that...I add one other comment: If I was not familiar with geocaching and went to my father's gravesite to find a small container with geocahe markings tucked behind the grave marker, I would probably collect it and throw it away.

 

Even if this ludicrous bill is defeated, we should still be respectful and choose our cache sites responsibly.

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I am not in support of the bill on which they are voting and I believe existing laws are sufficient to protect the cemetaries (they may need to be ENFORCED a bit more to protect them from the real problematic people who would urinate on and destroy grave markers) but there is no need to try to "protect" them from geocachers.

I hope you understand that there is no evidence of Geocachers doing any of these actions. Rather these claims have been made the bills sponsors they have yet to provide any valid evidence other than out of context comments from logs.

 

I will say it again, this law will also include areas designated as historic; parts of or entire districts, towns, cities, and counties. Cemetaries may be the emotional hot button, but this bill is not exclusive to cemetaries.

Edited by magellan315
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