What's The Deal With Deet?

March 14, 2005

I've been reading the forums for a cpl weeks now and I read a lot of people recommending insect repellants with deet. The problem is I remember watching a show on TV (20/20, 48 hours, Dateline, something along those lines) and they were doing a report about people dropping dead from using too much DEET. Seems that people were ignoring the recommended dosage applications and applying it much more frequently than they should, which in turn caused a loss of life. This was about ten years ago and I know there must be someone out there who would remember this, or maybe the circumstances surrounding this investigation. Again, this was about 10 years ago so maybe the active ingredient (Deet) has been lessend somewhat in most products. Since then, I've been using all natural products which seem to work well (i.e. Cactus Juice). Does anyone remember hearing about these Deet reports? I dunno if this was the proper forum to post this, and I apologize if it's not.......

38.2k · March 14, 2005

DEET use as directed has proven to be a safe and effective insect repellent. What can kill you, or make you very, very sick are insect borne diseases like West Nile Virus, Lyme, Erlichosis, Babesoisis, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, Tick Typhus, STARI, Tularemia, St. Louis encephalitis, Tick Paralaysis, Relapsing Fever, Eastern Equine Encephalitis and Anaplasmosis. All are found in ticks or mosquitos in the US.

3.8k · March 14, 2005

There is a really good discussion, including medical info and effectiveness, in this thread.

38.2k · March 14, 2005

By the way studies have shown that non DEET repellants are not effective and accounts that say otherwise are apocryphal (see the NEJoM article for details).

Here is some info for ya:

Illinois Dept of Health

Journal of Family Practice

New England Journal of Medicine

Canadian Medical Association

NYC Dept of Health

And nobody is dropping dead from using DEET, but they are from West Nile Virus.

Edited March 14, 2005 by briansnat

March 14, 2005

what briansnat said. -harry

March 14, 2005

Deet melts plastic and rubber. Keep it away from your GPS receiver and camera. I will not engage in the disease discussion because I have no facts to support my belief that the risk of insect borne disease in the US is exaggerated.

March 14, 2005

water can be a dangerous chemical in large doses

March 14, 2005

I dunno I've been using this stuff called Cactus Juice (brand name) which is actual cactus juice from some type of cactus (the name escapes me and I don't have a bottle to look at). I've camped in some pretty infested areas and this stuff works like a charm. I just wish it worked on daddy long legs (shudder)......

Anyway, it's totally non toxic, you can eat it if you want (i wouldn't recommend it) but this stuff is the sh*t! I don't put much stock in those wristbands or those "electronic" bug repellants.

www.sportsmansguide.com has some mesh overclothes that seem like they'd do the trick, except you have to walk around lookin like a sack of oranges

2.6k · March 14, 2005

The problem is I remember watching a show on TV (20/20, 48 hours, Dateline, something along those lines) and they were doing a report about people dropping dead from using too much DEET.

The best advice I can give is that 20/20, 48 hours, Dateline and the rest are extremely hazardous to your health and should be assiduously avoided. Seriously...think how much active misinformation news magazines have promoted in the last twenty years. You want to know about something these days, Google it and weigh the answer by the source. Google doesn't have to hit deadlines or attract customers by making them afraid of ordinary household products.

As for DEET, "safe if used as directed" covers it, from what I can tell. Try not to get it on your lips or in your eyes (or your plastics). Spray your hand, squinch your face and wipe it all over. Nothing seems as good at repelling insects -- which are REALLY dangerous. Don't forget forgettable places like the back of your neck and just up your sleeve.

Oddly, the most effective concentration (according to the US military) is %40. I've found 10%, 20%, 30% and 100%, but never 40%.

March 14, 2005

The best advice I can give is that 20/20, 48 hours, Dateline and the rest are extremely hazardous to your health and should be assiduously avoided.QUOTE]

I agree, that's why I stopped watching them about 10 years ago

We live in a fear based society, and the media is 75% to blame, gov't officials the other 25....

Keep us scared, that way we'll always be on our toes!

Edited March 14, 2005 by TrotzO

5.3k · March 14, 2005

Deet melts plastic and rubber. Keep it away from your GPS receiver and camera. I will not engage in the disease discussion because I have no facts to support my belief that the risk of insect borne disease in the US is exaggerated.

insect borne disease or not, who wants to get bitten my insects anyway.

DEET or a toe tag, I'll take DEET

1k · March 15, 2005

... Seriously...think how much active misinformation news magazines have promoted in the last twenty years. ...

Not like the Internet, which always provides reliable information. :ninja:

Google doesn't have to hit deadlines or attract customers by making them afraid of ordinary household products.

Yes, but then Google doesn't provide the content--it just helps you find it.

weigh the answer by the source.

That's the key...doesn't matter whether you heard it through 20/20 or some web site--ya gotta consider the original source of the information (and what their agenda may be).

As for DEET, it seems to work pretty well. So does asbestos, Freon, Thalidimide, DDT, lead paint, PCBs, and about a thousand other products that turned out to be harmful down the road. Life is an exercise in risk management--ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice.

7.2k · March 15, 2005

Oddly, the most effective concentration (according to the US military) is %40. I've found 10%, 20%, 30% and 100%, but never 40%.

Wal-mart carries it in 28%, 40%, and 100% pump. The 100% is pretty rough. We use 28% or 40% depending on what they have in stock at the time, but prefer 40%. We carry a small pump bottle of 100% in our packs, but like has been mentioned, was touching plastics afterwards.

I'm going to experiment with permithryn and long sleeves this summer to see if there is a difference. Then I'll make a decision if I dislike the bugs or heat more.

March 15, 2005

Gotta trust Sissy and CR they live in my area... The south! With lots of water and swamp areas don't know that bugs are any worse than they are here in the summer and durning nice weather! :ninja:

38.2k · March 15, 2005

As for DEET, it seems to work pretty well. So does asbestos, Freon, Thalidimide, DDT, lead paint, PCBs, and about a thousand other products that turned out to be harmful down the road. Life is an exercise in risk management--ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice.

With most of those other products the deleterious effects became obvious over time. DEET has been used by many millions of people for over half a century and has been proven to be safe when used as directed. Have a few people suffered complications? Sure, but DEET has proven safer than many common household products, including aspirin, which kills thousands every year.

2.6k · March 15, 2005

As for DEET, it seems to work pretty well. So does asbestos, Freon, Thalidimide, DDT, lead paint, PCBs, and about a thousand other products that turned out to be harmful down the road.

For most of those, I would change "found harmful" to "was the subject of a widespread media-induced panic that was, in hindsight, largely bogus."

Asbestos, for example, does indeed cause mesothelioma, but we have no idea when or why -- or, more importantly, why not. The ceiling of my dorm room was sprayed with raw asbestos as the result of a dorm fire in another college the year before. I could write my name in the dust every morning. I lived in soup of that for a year and smoked three packs of cigarettes a day, but here I am. Me and several hundred millions others. Engineers in train yards in England used to reminisce about the great piles of asbestos that they would wad into balls and have snowball fights with. Everyone over the age of forty was subjected to asbestos, sometimes in great quantity. The result? A stable and small number of mesothelioma cases. Who's complaining when their cotton pot-holders go up in smoke? Certainly not the guys who don moon suits and make thousands cleaning your basement.

Thalidomide is being prescribed again, I believe as an anti-nausea agent after chemotherapy. It's an excellent drug -- if you're not pregnant.

Before DDT, malaria was endemic in the US. My grandfather had it. The DDT spraying exercise in the US in the '50s was massive and prolonged. Some of our bird species populations dropped to dangerous levels because of thinned eggshells, but none were ultimately made extinct, despite mind-boggling quantities of spraying. Millions (of humans) die across the globe every year because we won't let them use DDT, even in quantities that would cause no harm to the environment. A cheap and excellent insecticide responsibly used, that we just...have a thing about.

As for lead! Don't get me started. Rhode Island is obsessed with lead paint. Lead is one of the most ancient and excellent pigments. Its superior durability and film-forming properties are the reason we used to paint the exterior of houses every ten years (remember that?). A health hazard? Well, everyone born from about 1965 back to, like, Roman antiquity grew up in a house whose walls were painted in lead based paint. Why it would become a problem in the latter half of the 20th Century is a mystery to me. Good lawyers?

Freon? I dunno. Was the ozone hole significant and and is it smaller since we went to other refrigerants? I haven't a clue. Perhaps they just got bored reporting about it, once they'd managed to get something banned. (Say, whatever happened to acid rain, anyhow...?)

I don't know anything about PCB's so, to everyone's relief, I won't go there.

Oh...DEET? Eh. We've been using it since WWII. Keep it off your lips and out of your eyes. It beats the heck out of a dose of West Nile.

1k · March 15, 2005

Yeah--and not that long ago, doctors still treated people by bleeding and cupping. If it was good enough for ggg-grandpa, it should be good enough for us! Personally, I think this whole scientific research thing is just a passing fad. We should ignore it and just stick with folk wisdom. :ninja:

My point is this--for every chemical product that is effective, there is a group somewhere that claims it is dangerous. For every product that is dangerous, there is a group that tells you that it is "safe when used as directed." We could quote examples back and forth 'til the cows come home.

In general, when a product is found to be harmful, it is replaced by another product that is better. We don't need DDT and lead paint any more, because we have malathion and acrylic latex. The birds are back, and you no longer have to paint your house every ten years. That's progress--and it is driven, in part, by the people who publicize the dangers of products.

As for acid rain--it is still very much present. The PA Game Commission publishes a map of lakes and streams in the state that no longer have any fish in them because of acid rain. It's quite an eye-opener. For more local proof, visit any graveyard and look at the older marble headstones--they are becoming illegible. You can thank the anti-nuclear kooks (in part) for the acid rain phenomenon, because instead of moving forward to solve a problem, we moved backward to quell their hysteria. (sound of REveritt zipping up his flameproof, non-asbestos suit)

As for DEET (this thread is about DEET, right?), I know it's effective, and it's probably safe, but that doesn't mean I will blithely ignore every warning I hear.

2.6k · March 15, 2005

My point is this--for every chemical product that is effective, there is a group somewhere that claims it is dangerous. For every product that is dangerous, there is a group that tells you that it is "safe when used as directed." We could quote examples back and forth 'til the cows come home.

We could, but it doesn't mean one set of "facts" is as true as the other. That's the refreshing thing about science: either a thing is true or it is not. Either the plane flies or it falls out of the sky. Either latex acrylic lasts as long as lead-based enamel, or it doesn't.

1k · March 15, 2005

...
We could, but it doesn't mean one set of "facts" is as true as the other. That's the refreshing thing about science: either a thing is true or it is not. Either the plane flies or it falls out of the sky. Either latex acrylic lasts as long as lead-based enamel, or it doesn't.

Obviously, the long term effects of exposure to a chemical are harder to judge than whether planes fall out of the sky. With planes, the answer is "sometimes"; with the chemicals, the answer is "wait and see."

Yes, the truth is out there, and science will eventually find it, but perhaps too late to benefit me. I need to use common sense.

DEET is vile stuff--my senses tell me that every time I use it, and I trust my senses. It occurs to me that spraying ample quantities of the stuff directly on my skin several times a week for six or seven months of the year might not be a good idea. But I am not an "all or nothing" kind of person. I believe in moderation, not abstinence. And I believe in weighing risks.

Whenever this topic comes up, people reel off a list of scary-sounding diseases. The fact is, the chances of getting West Nile (or whatever) from a mosquito bite are extremely small. The chances of long-term effects of liberal use of DEET are unknown (to me, anyway). Neither of those factors weigh very heavily on my decision.

Basically, it comes down to the annoyance of mosquito bites versus the annoyance of using DEET. I use the DEET, but not too often, and I try to do the swampy caches in the winter.

1k · March 15, 2005

Here is a useful article:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/94/102676.htm

Bottom line: use low concentrations and do not mix with other topicals--especially sunscreen.

Here is another that provides some information on the effectiveness of various concentrations of DEET:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/48/39165.htm

Bottom line: DEET toxicity is very rare, except among middle-aged British women who snack on peanut M&Ms.

2.4k · March 15, 2005

Has anyone tried the "BUZZ OFF" bug-repellent clothing? I've seen it at Amazon and LL Bean, among other places, and was wondering if anyone knew how well it worked. I'd love not to stink of DEET at the end of a day of caching.

I tried the cactus juice once and had an immediate severe allergic reaction to it. Same thing with Avon skin-so-soft. (Kind of odd, because I'm not allergic to anything else other than pollen.) So I've been sticking to DEET, because I don't have a bad reaction to it (and it works). It would be nice to have an alternative.

3.9k · March 15, 2005

DEET has been around long enough that if there were any long-term effects, they would be starting to show up by now. Unless the effect is that after 100 years of use you get cancer.

The distraction caused by scratching yourself just once when driving away from a cache where you got bitten, might well cause an accident. But we're going to get onto one of my hobby-horses here (number of Americans killed by cars each year: 45000, number killed by DEET, ever: probably zero), so I'll shut up.

5.3k · March 15, 2005

What it boils down to is DEET works, all those non DEET repelents just do not do the job. the other junk item that does not work are the electrnic bug repellents.

but then again there are people that do not want to be bothered with facts

March 15, 2005

Here is a useful article:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/94/102676.htm

Bottom line: use low concentrations and do not mix with other topicals--especially sunscreen.

Well, that tells me all I need to know. I'm a redhead that turns into a lobster inside of an hour without 45 SPF sunscreen. If my choices are the sunburn and sun poisoning, or a mosquito bite, my answer is clear. I'll suffer the itchies.

And chances are that if you contract West Nile, unless you are very old or very young, you're not even going to know it. http://my.webmd.com/content/article/66/79588.htm#q2

24.7k · March 15, 2005

When I was in grade school they showed me a film on DDT showing how safe it was. I didn't know why and I really didn't care. What I did notice what that it had a couple who were eating DDT tablets daily to prove how safe it was. Natually I have no idea what happened to them and I'm curouse.

All these years later I know why they showed me the film and I see some of the same non educational propaganda crop up in my kids schools.

4.5k · March 16, 2005

The ceiling of my dorm room was sprayed with raw asbestos as the result of a dorm fire in another college the year before. I could write my name in the dust every morning.

Asbestos hasn't been used in years. The manufactrurers were sued into bankruptcy. However the new stuff shouldn't be inhaled. Who knows what ailment that will create years down the road? :lol:

As far as the dangers of Deet vs. the deseases you can get, I've been bit by a Lyme infected Deer TIck and my dog has come down with both Lyme and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. The Lyme infection rate in ticks in the NY< CT< NJ PA MA area, the heart of the original Lyme area, can be 50% or greater. Don't know about other areas but I bet the facts are not good. (more deer, more Deer Ticks)

Deet in high concentrations should not be used on children but otherwise there's no real harm from it. Try Permethrin which is sprayed on clothes. It's totally harmless to people as it comes from the petals of flowers but kills ticks. Use Deet on your skin and Permethrin on you clothes and a collar or application for your dog.

Cover yourself, check yourself often, tuck in your shirts, wear long pants, tuck your pants in your socks (yeah it looks stupid) use Deet and Pyrmethrin if possible). Get a tick removal device.

You'll probably get bit anyway which is why caching in winter is nice.

Edited March 16, 2005 by Alan2

March 16, 2005

Get a tick removal device.

Hey Alan2 - could you be more specific here? Just what is a "tick removal device", where do you get 'em, and how do they work?

March 16, 2005

Oddly, the most effective concentration (according to the US military) is %40. I've found 10%, 20%, 30% and 100%, but never 40%.

Wal-mart carries it in 28%, 40%, and 100% pump. The 100% is pretty rough. We use 28% or 40% depending on what they have in stock at the time, but prefer 40%. We carry a small pump bottle of 100% in our packs, but like has been mentioned, was touching plastics afterwards.

I'm going to experiment with permithryn and long sleeves this summer to see if there is a difference. Then I'll make a decision if I dislike the bugs or heat more.

I am new to the site but figured I'd add my 2 cents worth. As stated before anything is harmful if too much is used. With that said 100% deet should not be used in direct contact with your skin it is for use on clothing. With normal use and as directed on the bottle deet is very effective and as with anything may be harmful in the future but for now and with use as directed you should have no long term effects. As for permithryn it is actually stronger than deet and if you have it in 100% do not let it touch your skin. When i was stationed with the marines and we where going to an area that was bad for insect bites we covered our uniforms in 100% permithryn but you could not wear them for a day or so and it would last for awhile i forget how long exactly.

March 16, 2005

To remove ticks, use a hot matchhead. They will let go, instead of you breaking their stuff off while still imbedded in your skin.

Edited March 16, 2005 by Marcie/Eric

2.6k · March 16, 2005

Asbestos hasn't been used in years. The manufactrurers were sued into bankruptcy. However the new stuff shouldn't be inhaled. Who knows what ailment that will create years down the road?

Considering this was thirty years ago, they better get busy with my disease if I'm going to live to suffer it. And considering the manufacturer of asbestos is God, they better get busy on that lawsuit if they expect to bankrupt him.

1k · March 16, 2005

... And considering the manufacturer of asbestos is God, they better get busy on that lawsuit if they expect to bankrupt him.

You may attribute creation of the raw material to God, if you wish, but it is the manufacturers of asbestos products that get sued. For a partial list of them, see this web page.

As for waiting 30 years, that is just about how long ago I was exposed to large quantities of asbestos when I worked in a shipyard, and I am also still waiting to get sick.

No doubt mesothelioma is partially the result of some genetic predisposition, or perhaps exposure to asbestos along with other factors that haven't yet been identified.

DEET bug repellents contain no asbestos (just to mention DEET now and then).

2.6k · March 16, 2005

You may attribute creation of the raw material to God, if you wish, but it is the manufacturers of asbestos products that get sued. For a partial list of them, see this web page.

Okay, you got me; I don't believe in God. But "asbestos" is a generic word for several different sorts of fibrous minerals which are found in more than half the rocks on the surface of the planet. We breathe thousands of fibers a day naturally (tens of thousands, depending on where you live).

And DEET products almost certainly do contain asbestos, because it's in the water, as well. Several hundred thousand fibers per liter, in some cases.

4.8k · March 16, 2005

Has anyone tried the "BUZZ OFF" bug-repellent clothing? I've seen it at Amazon and LL Bean, among other places, and was wondering if anyone knew how well it worked. I'd love not to stink of DEET at the end of a day of caching.

I tried the cactus juice once and had an immediate severe allergic reaction to it. Same thing with Avon skin-so-soft. (Kind of odd, because I'm not allergic to anything else other than pollen.) So I've been sticking to DEET, because I don't have a bad reaction to it (and it works). It would be nice to have an alternative.

My wife showed me that line of Buzz-off clothing just the other night. It's basically a line of clothing presoaked in Premethrin. Premethrin has been used for decades in Malaria infested areas. It's not for topical use because of toxicity, but is very effective at keeping musquitos from biting.

I googled for a review and came up with this:

Backpack Gear Test Review

I'd say that the mfg saw a chance to cash in on a line of clothing with all the hype about musquito born diseases (justified or not). Nonetheless, I'd still rather not get bitten by bugs of any sort.

I'd say stick with what works for you. DEET works for me, and I use it at relatively high concentrations when I'm hiking in the Swarms. I've never had any adverse reactions to it, but if I did, I'd probably find something else just to avoid the bites and the possibility of contracting some nasty disease and the eventual regimen of nasty antibiotics. It's the same reason I use a water filter when I'm out backpacking. Giardia may be in pretty low concentrations in the wild, but who needs to sit on the toilet for a couple of weeks and go through a cycle of Flagel :rolleyes: .

1k · March 16, 2005

...And DEET products almost certainly do contain asbestos, because it's in the water, as well. Several hundred thousand fibers per liter, in some cases.

OH MY GOD--DEET CONTAINS ASBESTOS!

Really, Auntie, you should not spread such rumors--you'll frighten the children. :rolleyes:

Edited March 16, 2005 by reveritt

2.6k · March 16, 2005

Hey, at least I didn't bring up the crayon thing.

March 16, 2005

Asbestos is only bad for your lungs. I think you could be around it all the time, as long as it does not become airbourne. At least that's what Pac Bell tells it's employees.

March 16, 2005

OK.. edited. I checked out Snopes, and am humbled. :lol:

I was told by my teacher in Human Sexuality class. I will forward the article to her so she will not spread this misinformation to others.

Edited March 17, 2005 by ozzyemm

38.2k · March 16, 2005

To remove ticks, use a hot matchhead. They will let go, instead of you breaking their stuff off while still imbedded in your skin.

When exposed to hot matcheads, flames, etc... they often regurgitate into your bloodstream. Not a good thing. The proper way to remove ticks is to use tweezers, grab around the mouth and pull.

4.5k · March 17, 2005

Permethrin is not toxic to humans only ticks. It's an insecticide. It will kill the buggers. The reason you don't use it on your skin is that skin destroys its effectiveness against ticks after about 20 minutes.

The Interesting thing about Deet is that it's not toxic to mosquitos. It's a repellent confusing the bugs so they don't land.

Check Google for tick removal devices.

"Flying" asbestos is known as "friable" DOn't know why they call it friable. That's the stuff you don't want around. The ACM (asbestos containing material) that isn't friable can stay where it is as long as it isn't disturbed.

4.3k · March 17, 2005

...Asbestos was used in tampons in order to thin blood and cause women to use (and ultimately buy) more tampons....

- The forums are getting worse than the Weekly World News.

- Are you posting silly bugger just to see who you can fool, or do you really believe this stuff?

- Do you EVER bother to check, or just believe what anyone tells you?

http://www.snopes.com/toxins/tampon.htm

1k · March 17, 2005

Hey--how about them Red Sox!?

I wonder if this thread may have outlived its usefulness.

21.9k · March 17, 2005

Hey--how about them Red Sox!?

I wonder if this thread may have outlived its usefulness.

I was wondering that, too. My three cents is that protection from bugs and their diseases is a very important topic, especially for new geocachers who will be new to the woods when spring tick and mosquito season is upon us. (Moderators get an extra cent.) Having undergone the prescription treatment for lyme disease, and bearing permanent marks on my legs from chigger bites, I wish I'd taken the warnings about using deet and permethrin a bit more seriously.

So, the topic will stay open, but please limit discussion to deet and related things like permethrin. Thanks.

March 17, 2005

We use a natural product based on Citronella Oil. It is produced in a stick form and has proved really effective here for mosquitoes and ticks.

We also have a product which is added to rinse water when laundering cache clothes. I can't remember the name of the stuff but will find it and post. It permeates the clothing, is hypoallergenic and effective for up to three months. Also works real well.

5.3k · March 17, 2005

I clpiped this from the link to the New England Journal of Medicine that Brian posted

Results DEET-based products provided complete protection for the longest duration. Higher concentrations of DEET provided longer-lasting protection. A formulation containing 23.8 percent DEET had a mean complete-protection time of 301.5 minutes. A soybean-oil–based repellent protected against mosquito bites for an average of 94.6 minutes. The IR3535-based repellent protected for an average of 22.9 minutes. All other botanical repellents we tested provided protection for a mean duration of less than 20 minutes. Repellent-impregnated wristbands offered no protection.

For those that missed the link here it is again

NEJM

Edited March 17, 2005 by JohnnyVegas

2.6k · March 17, 2005

Having undergone the prescription treatment for lyme disease, and bearing permanent marks on my legs from chigger bites, I wish I'd taken the warnings about using deet and permethrin a bit more seriously.

Ah. I, too, have chigger scars.

Funny thing...I grew up in chigger territory and they were never more than a nuisance. It's when I've gone back for visits after years away that I've gotten killer doses. As a neighbor in my hometown sagely remarked, "if a chigger'uz the size of yor thumb, it've kilt you."

Truer words were never spoken.

20.7k · March 17, 2005

Of course, if they were the size of your thumb, you wouldn't have stepped in a pile of them.

March 17, 2005

Yep, I have some experience with those little bottles of 100% DEET. Very effective stuff. We sometimes cache in the north woods where the skeeters are so thick, you feel like you are swimming in them. With the 100% stuff, we have managed to escape with just a couple bites apiece. However, I once accidentally did get some on my lips and they felt like I had novacaine injected in to them for a while. Wierd. Since then, I have been very discrimating in its use.

Recently, I had a bottle of it leak into the bottom of my caching bag. Turned some of the vinyl into sticky goo.

I remember last year hearing about catnip oil being a very effective substitute. Pretty expensive stuff tho.

March 17, 2005

I miss my Peaceful Sleep.

2.5k · March 18, 2005

water can be a dangerous chemical in large doses

Actually, it's bad in little doses too..

You can drown in a teaspoon full of it.

What's The Deal With Deet?

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