Have You Read This Thread On Firearms!

December 21, 2004

I have just been reading a thread on whether we should carry firearms when we cache!

Whilst we all speak the same language, I sometimes think we are on a different planet. I know we all share a common interest but ........... on this one I am speechless :blink:

December 22, 2004

on this one I am speechless

Well said...but it's inevitable. Suprisingly I think if you had a thread on people being stoned and naked while caching there would be a lot more uproar. (Except in Scotland where I'm sure it's the norm)

-t-

December 22, 2004

No I have never met a naked cacher, Well not yet :blink: Its too cold up here for that carry on. As for the guns well we dont have grizzly bears wandering around so I dont think we need to take one out caching at the moment.

1.6k · December 22, 2004

I did think on commenting in that thread but I really couldn't be bothered with all the "we have the right to defend ourselves", "it's in the constitution" e.t.c... replies. :blink:

MarcB

December 22, 2004

so I dont think we need to take one out caching at the moment.

A gun that is!!! not a naked cacher :blink:

6.2k · December 22, 2004

No I have never met a naked cacher, Well not yet Its too cold up here for that carry on. As for the guns well we dont have grizzly bears wandering around so I dont think we need to take one out caching at the moment.

An angry Badger is a sight to behold though, and we're getting wild boar back, apparently. I'd draw the line at a stout stick myself, and leave the Uzi at home. With the kids.

SP

December 22, 2004

Secondly, if I am attacked by a crazies, it would be a hell of a lot more fun to beat them senseless with a hiking staff than to 'just' shoot them

This quote from the posted thread is just unbelivable !! I could comment with my true feelings about this but I Really don't want to be banned !

Simply Paul - I can confirm that there are Wild Boar coming back. Have a look here - Wild Boar Webpage.

My wife was walking in the Forest of Dean yesterday on a non-geocaching expedition (the fool !!) when she came across this :

(Sorry about the picture quality - it took her by suprise somewhat !)

1.4k · December 22, 2004

An angry Badger is a sight to behold though, and we're getting wild boar back, apparently.

A couple of years ago some hillwalkers around Aviemore were skewered by a horny reindeer, but I for one am very glad that we do not have the Murricane gun culture here in the UK.

My field kit for geocaching is quite heavy enough without having to cart an H&K MP5 or a Sig Sauer around the countryside.

December 22, 2004

All countries participating in this game is not as safe as (insert your country here if applicable). Although never threatened at gun point, I have had fears for my safety when out caching, where I wish I had carried a fire arm.

I still believe "Rather have it and never needing it, than needing it and not have it".

Carrying a fire arm / knife / walking stick / anything that can be used as a weapon should not be seen as an act of aggression, rather as a means of protecting one self. A simple rock can be used in the same destructive manner as a fire arm in the right hands. Fire arms / knifes / walking sticks / rocks / anythin... do not kill they are meraly tools in the hands of humans...

This is and always will be a very personal and controversial topic, with very good arguments for and against. Maybe we should not engage this debate here...

December 22, 2004

Whilst we all speak the same language, I sometimes think we are on a different planet. I know we all share a common interest but ........... on this one I am speechless

Don't forget that almost half of the people on the other side of the pond don't agree to this strange behaviour their government has ... there is hope.

2.2k · December 22, 2004

i can see the arguments on both sides and can honestly say i can't make up my mind. it will/would be a terrible day when we all needed/wanted to be armed. but then as has been said better to carry one for fifty years and never need it than go out and really need to defend yourself with one. it's a debate with no easy answer.

some people do appear to relish the idea of having an excuse to use one though as some of the quotes have shown. it's worrying that they count themselves as the good guys!

i'll keep relying on common sense, good luck and a walking stick.

December 22, 2004

IMO, if you think you need a gun to be safe in an area, you shouldn't be in that area. How much sense does it take to compare the gun crime statistics in a gun-legal country to those in gun-free countries and come to the sensible conclusion?

I guarantee before the next decade is out that some US nut will set up a cache and pick off the first finders by sniper fire.

2.2k · December 22, 2004

Guns no thanks!

Having been around a gun accident with someone who was trained to use them. No serious injuries to either of us thanks. You should break the shotgun before you put it down.

I have been walking and climbing on my own for about 30 years. never had the need to defend myself with my hands let alone a gun or even though I may have to. That includes some unsafe countries.

Me with a gun, erm would not trust myself on the M6.

December 22, 2004

IMO, if you think you need a gun to be safe in an area, you shouldn't be in that area.

VERY good point

December 22, 2004

No I have never met a naked cacher, Well not yet

Yeah, I think that's just because some of you think blue body paint counts as clothing!

24.7k · December 22, 2004

IMO, if you think you need a gun to be safe in an area, you shouldn't be in that area.

VERY good point

That's rule one of personal safety. It gets lost in the larger debate. It's where you think you are safe but aren't that is going to get you. There is a random element to who's number is up though mostly it's someone you know who's going to cause you harm.

2.1k · December 22, 2004

IMO, if you think you need a gun to be safe in an area, you shouldn't be in that area.

VERY good point

That's rule one of personal safety. It gets lost in the larger debate. It's where you think you are safe but aren't that is going to get you. There is a random element to who's number is up though mostly it's someone you know who's going to cause you harm.

I agree, and will go even further...I would argue that having a gun with them will allows some people to enter or even seek out a situation in which they may be at greater risk than they would normally be comfortable with (if they did not have that gun with them).

I've lived and worked in many countries around the world, grew up in inner-city nyc, hiked and camped solo all of my life, and have never needed a gun (except for hunting :angry: ). I simply avoid situations where I will be called upon to kill another human being during my recreation.

There is always that random chance factor RK mentions, but people occasionally get hit by lightning, eaten by sharks, crushed by meteorites, etc. and most of us don't hide in underground bunkers, although it would probably be safer. :lol:

nfa-jamie

Edited December 22, 2004 by NFA

December 22, 2004

I simply avoid situations where I will be called upon to kill another human being during my recreation.

I think this sums it up nicely. It also carries a lot of weight coming from a US-NY based cacher. Thanks for the post, NFA. :angry:

December 22, 2004

One who has been trained, can do much damage with rolled up copies of their cache pages. :lol: :angry: :lol: :lol:

1k · December 22, 2004

One who has been trained, can do much damage with rolled up copies of their cache pages.

Ahhhhhh, So!

December 22, 2004

Another NY area cacher here - but I cache in the far northwestern New Jersey mountains and the problem here is not humans, it is Black Bears. They grow to over 300 Kg and are a real problem in some cache areas.

I too grew up in the city - and never ran into anything on the streets that could not be handled with a stick, rock or perhaps a knife but the bears are different. Approx 2 yrs ago, one took a baby from outside its home and killed it in the nearby vicinity. There have been many, many cases of livestock and pets being mauled.

As a 30+ year member of the US military (currently reservist), I would venture a guess that I am fairly safe and reliable around firearms. I also target shoot as a hobby (but do not hunt).

Given the Black Bear problem and the danger that I see, I am beginning to think it is time to bring my trusty .45 cal pistol with me in some areas.

24.7k · December 22, 2004

...I agree, and will go even further...I would argue that having a gun with them will allows some people to enter or even seek out a situation in which they may be at greater risk than they would normally be comfortable with (if they did not have that gun with them)....

I would argue that people that stupid would do the same thing if they had a baseball bat in their pocket.

Gun, Knife, or Kung Fu, people tend to avoid situations that make them uncomfortable. I don't care how good you are you are going to avoid them. If you are the kind to look for trouble, well the weapon won't matter because you are going to go looking anyway, and odds are, you will find it.

Actually that has nothing to do with the entire Guns yes or no debate. I don't think it builds a case either way.

6.4k · December 22, 2004

Can I chime in? I already knew this, but here is a current google search: UK violent crime rate

Interesting quote from one of the links:

The International Crime Vitimisation Survey shows that Australia's violent crime rate is already twice that of the US or Switzerland. Australia's violent crime rate is about as high as England's, a country that bans handguns.

In other words, as a country, violent crime in UK is twice that of the USA, desite the UK bans handguns and most of the USA does not.

It seems despite ever stricter controls on guns, your violent crime keeps going up.

You will notice the same thing with Canada and Australia, both countries that have virtually banned private gun ownership.

Legal gun ownership in the US is up, and our violent crime rate is down.

The amount of firearm offenses in the USA committed by LEGAL gun owners is something like .0001% of all firearm related crime. The highest murder and violent crime rates in the USA are in cities like Washington DC and New York City that dont allow guns, yet most of the lowest crime rates are in states that allow law-abiding people to carry a gun.

In Switzerland, all able-bodied men between the ages of 20 and 42 are trusted to keep a machinegun in their homes as part of their military service. A MACHINE GUN! Yet the Swiss have one of the lowest murder rates in Europe.

Banning things doesn't make the problem go away. Drugs are illegal, yet plenty of people take drugs. Drunk driving is illegal, yet 100's of people a day die from drunk drivers.

Just stuff to think about if you have an open mind.

Edited December 22, 2004 by Mopar

December 23, 2004

Given the Black Bear problem and the danger that I see, I am beginning to think it is time to bring my trusty .45 cal pistol with me in some areas.

Some real actual statistics;

From the University of Michigan Museum of Zoology:

[...] the danger associated with black bears is sometimes overstated, fewer than 36 human deaths resulted from black bear encounters in the 20th century.

From the Detriot Free Press

In 1997, the most recent year for which national surveys have been done, 32,436 people died from gunshot wounds, and an additional 64,207 were injured seriously enough to seek emergency medical care

Not taking a political position here, just information. Take it how you'd like.

-t-

1.7k · December 23, 2004

For a detailed analysis of the way crime rate statistics compare, wade through this, Drug War Distortions, sorry it's a bit weighty, but makes interesting reading, for both sides of the argument to think about. Statistics can prove anything, depending on the way they are presented! We might share common languages, but have different cultures, and historys over the last 200+ years, so what is acceptable in one country will not be in another. Personally I believe the UK Gun Laws do not work, as proved by the fact that it is easy to obtain illegal firearms(I have lived in/ visited areas were I have seen Illegal firearms for sale), but "can not" comment on the US, as I have not got any knowledge of the situation over there, apart from what I've heard or read (which can be skewed, by the person presenting the information). The firearms debate, will continue to infinity without a solution.

Dave

December 23, 2004

The highest murder and violent crime rates in the USA are in cities like Washington DC and New York City that dont allow guns, yet most of the lowest crime rates are in states that allow law-abiding people to carry a gun.

I would agree that overall numbers are greatest in Washington DC or NYC just because of the number of people living in these areas, but you said violent crime RATES. How about some per capita stats. Compare violent crimes in Dallas (gun loving state) vs. NYC in a per capita format. Its not even close. I think there is a closer tie to poverty rates and violent crime than right to carry and violent crime.

But as mentioned above the statistics can be skewed in any which way.

Edited December 23, 2004 by Mxyzptlk

1.1k · December 23, 2004

Can I chime in? I already knew this, but here is a current google search: UK violent crime rate

Interesting quote from one of the links:

The International Crime Vitimisation Survey shows that Australia's violent crime rate is already twice that of the US or Switzerland. Australia's violent crime rate is about as high as England's, a country that bans handguns.

In other words, as a country, violent crime in UK is twice that of the USA, desite the UK bans handguns and most of the USA does not.

It seems despite ever stricter controls on guns, your violent crime keeps going up.

You will notice the same thing with Canada and Australia, both countries that have virtually banned private gun ownership.

Legal gun ownership in the US is up, and our violent crime rate is down.

The amount of firearm offenses in the USA committed by LEGAL gun owners is something like .0001% of all firearm related crime. The highest murder and violent crime rates in the USA are in cities like Washington DC and New York City that dont allow guns, yet most of the lowest crime rates are in states that allow law-abiding people to carry a gun.

In Switzerland, all able-bodied men between the ages of 20 and 42 are trusted to keep a machinegun in their homes as part of their military service. A MACHINE GUN! Yet the Swiss have one of the lowest murder rates in Europe.

Banning things doesn't make the problem go away. Drugs are illegal, yet plenty of people take drugs. Drunk driving is illegal, yet 100's of people a day die from drunk drivers.

Just stuff to think about if you have an open mind.

..........years out of date and not comparing like with like. England & Wales record some matters as crimes, when other nations don't. Taking into account population you are still 5 times more likely to be murdered in US and 3 times more likely to be raped.

To say that violent crime is worse in the UK than America is laughable.

2.2k · December 23, 2004

not forgetting that you are very unlikely to be the victim of violent crime wherever you are. more likely in states but still not that likely to happen to one individual.

avoid areas you don't feel comfortable in and with common sense you can probably never even get close to any violence. discounting the wife when you get in from caching very very late!

if you cache in riskier areas then number of cachers would have more effect than knives or guns. lone people are more likely to be victims than groups.

i can see why the need them against black bears. but could i live myself if i had to injure/kill another human? even in self defence.

safe caching to you all, and watch out for the wife behind the door with the frying pan!

December 23, 2004

This thread is sliding towards a debate on US Gun ownership and gun culture.

I welcome the input from the cachers who contributed on carrying guns (Tiffany's Slaves) or not carrying guns (NFA) while geocaching but in this case we are looking at a gun ownership/violent crime debate, UK vs US - and this is best left to journalists or Michael Moore.

1.4k · December 23, 2004

There are no circumstances in which I would go geocaching to a venue which needed firearms for personal safety. For one thing, such a cache would be in breach of one of the few and simple rules of cache-placement:- do not stand the cache-hunter into danger.

Geocaching is great fun.

Shooting people (or any other mammal) is not.

Anyone who thinks they need to, or might need to, apply lethal force as part of geocaching needs to:-- drink less coffee; drink no alcohol; think hard about the meaning of the word 'fun'.

Cheers, The Forester

Half a Murricane; half Brit; half Scandiwegian. Very happy to be able to choose to live in a gun-free country.

1.2k · December 23, 2004

Okay, now I will get shot by a bunch of americans but I can't understand why it is okay to talk about carrying firearms together with kids, or even worse: "I was out caching with my kids, when I saw I snake and shot him with 302 bullits."

But if they find an unused condom, religious book, a small sovenuire bottle of alcohol, or even worse someone using *)-words in the forums - then they all get upset and screaming about all the kids who are visiting these forums... What about all the kids from non-US visiting these forums and reading about how to use firearms?

*) Choose whatever letter you want in front of '-word'

I assume that I will upset some people, but this is a very common opinion and a lot of people can't really understand the whole issue..

1.1k · December 23, 2004

This thread is sliding towards a debate on US Gun ownership and gun culture.

I welcome the input from the cachers who contributed on carrying guns (Tiffany's Slaves) or not carrying guns (NFA) while geocaching but in this case we are looking at a gun ownership/violent crime debate, UK vs US - and this is best left to journalists or Michael Moore.

Apologies - you're right of course, but sometimes it's difficult to bite your tongue.......

6.2k · December 23, 2004

This is one of those topics where both sides have a good point. If they didn't it would have been settled a long time ago, just like the question of whether the Earth is flat or not. In the US the gun ownership numbers are high enough for carrying a piece to be regarded as perfectly normal. Hence the need for routinely armed police. I dare say very few guns are carried for self defence against animals, even though the US constitution specifically says it's ok to arm bears. Or something. They're used for hunting (recreational as well as for food) and self defence against other people with guns. And by people who want to earn some instant respect or rob a 7-11. I also have issues with the 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' argument as it's a LOT easier to kill someone with a bullet from a gun than it is to, say, tickle them to death. You need three things to commit a crime: Means, motive and opportunity. A heavy book or an AK47 can the means to murder, however convenience plays a part too. To kill someone with a heavy book takes time and determination. To kill someone with a gun takes a spit second or even an act of carelessness. This is why a car is more like a gun than a book. Used irresponsibly a car can kill, which is why they make you take a test and have insurance. No one has ever been arrested for being drunk in charge of a book.

Personally I'm delighted to be living in a country where the police don't have to carry a deadly weapon as a matter of routine and as for the relative statistics for violent crime, I'll quote fellow Buckinghamshire boy Disreli, "There are lies, dadgum lies and statistics".

SP

P.S. Geocaching! It's great, isn't it!

Edited December 23, 2004 by Simply Paul

3.1k · December 23, 2004

Personally I'm delighted to be living in a country where the police don't have to carry a deadly weapon as a matter of routine and as for the relative statistics for violent crime, I'll quote fellow Buckinghamshire boy Disreli, "There are lies, dadgum lies and statistics".

SP

P.S. Geocaching! It's great, isn't it!

Although there is a difference between not having to carry guns and not being allowed to carry guns isn't there.

I love my freedoms here and would hate to live in an oppressed state myself.

3.1k · December 23, 2004

Concern over rising police deaths

The stabbing of a police officer in Manchester will be a further cause of concern for many within the service.

While terrorist incidents may still be relatively unusual, the risks faced by policemen and women seem to be on the increase.

Over the past 30 years, 70 officers have been killed in the line of duty.

But 14 of those deaths occurred last year, and already this year there have been two fatalities.

December 23, 2004

Although there is a difference between not having to carry guns and not being allowed to carry guns isn't there.

I love my freedoms here and would hate to live in an oppressed state myself.

No offence meant Lazyboy & Mitey Mite but I think maybe you better get used to the idea that the days of private citizens in the US owning guns are numbered!!

Just my opinion of course....but all the signs are there that the US will follow the lead of the UK and other civilised countries in banning firearms...except in exceptional circumstances!!

Bill.

6.2k · December 23, 2004

Um... Our police ARE allowed to carry a gun if there's a need to. We have highly trained armed squads, anti-terrorist, rapid response types... I've seen them at the airport. Just on the whole, there's no need for them to carry a weapon beyond a night stick.

Stats are an interesting thing and I admit there is a problem developing here. However, do you have any idea how many police officers have been killed doing their duty in the US over the last 30 years?

I'm always astonished how some Americans think they have the monopoly on freedom as they're the only ones with a Stars and Stripes to pledge allegiance to. Still, that's not the topic so I'm not going there.

SP

December 23, 2004

but all the signs are there that the US will follow the lead of the UK and other civilised countries in banning firearms

Danger Will Robinson!

The word "civilized" in this context is begging for an argument and inappropriate. It's the tinder which gets us away from rationally looking at the facts and into a whole world of trading insults and misleading soundbites which is going to obscure what should happen from what will happen.

I only mention this to defuse this one post before it all starts here.

-t-

6.2k · December 23, 2004

Thank you for those words of wisdom t.

On a similar note I take offence (limp, English offence) at the suggestion I live in a 'oppressed state'. At least our politicians don't have to buy their way into power. Ours lie their way into power, as all good politicians should

SP

P.S. Don't get me started on blue-on-blue (so-called friendly fire) accidents... Or that 4% of the worlds population create 25% of the green house gasses...

3.1k · December 23, 2004

No offence meant Lazyboy & Mitey Mite but I think maybe you better get used to the idea that the days of private citizens in the US owning guns are numbered!!

Just my opinion of course....but all the signs are there that the US will follow the lead of the UK and other civilised countries in banning firearms...except in exceptional circumstances!!

Bill.

Well Bill you might share these invisible signs you see with us.

The days are not numbered. I can assure you that no knee jerk politicians will be able to disarm the population. Hitler managed to do that in Germany and it worked out well for him, but that won't happen here.

Not ever.

silly man

December 23, 2004

Well I guess that all the UK citizens ...sorry excluding N.I and the Channel Islands ... and IOM will be sleeping easier in their beds , content in the knowledge that since banning the ownership of handguns , these have ceased to appear in Uk crime figures.....

December 23, 2004

Yeah Right

December 23, 2004

Like I said when I started the thread:

Whilst we all speak the same language, I sometimes think we are on a different planet. I know we all share a common interest but ........... on this one I am speechless

Edited December 23, 2004 by one4zorro

1.7k · December 23, 2004

Excuse me but this is a Geocaching thread. Right?

Season of goodwill and all that ......

December 23, 2004

Yip ....think its something to do with freedom to express your opinions .... and without censorship when not being offensive .....then again you could just close it ...

December 23, 2004

The purpose of the thread was to illustrate the cultural differences between UK and some US cachers - if people want to debate gun control there is an excellent thread Here

Cheers

Martin

Edited December 23, 2004 by one4zorro

2.2k · December 23, 2004

The purpose of the thread was to illustrate the cultural differences between UK and some US cachers - if people want to debate gun control there is an excellent thread Here
Cheers

Martin

Nope don't want to debate gun control. I am quite happy with our gun controls so long as no one lets idiots like me have one the world will be a safer place!

December 24, 2004

Hitler managed to do that in Germany and it worked out well for him, but that won't happen here.

Since this thread has disintegrated into mindless generalisation, I propose that the subject be closed. It has absolutly no relation to geocaching, either in the UK, Ireland or the US, and is now showing to be a gun/crime debate for either side of the Atlantic.

While I am here...

What in the name of rational sense are you talking about? I have seen this argument on German Gun ownership in the 1930's before, on websites advocating US gun ownership such as this one.

May I remind you, and this is from a person who has to admit at this point that his grandfather was an SS member*, his granduncle an SA leader in Frankfurt, and most of his family being able to admit that they were committed Nazi's until they realised the error of their ways, that Hitler and the NSDAP were democratically elected.

The fact that Germany banned gun ownership was due to the presence of hundreds of armed militia, fragments of the street battles that caused the Weimar Republic to come to the brink of civil war.

If you look carefully at the period of 1932-1945, and exclude the attempt on Hitler's life by Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, there is almost no attempt to resist or overthrow the Government. Arms could have been easily procured, but this had nothing to do with gun ownership. In fact, it was the German people's tacit acceptance of the powers that were.

And before it is levelled at the German people for standing idly by, the US Air Force had explicit intelligence on the railway system that fed Auschwitz, but somehow the bombing to immobilise this railway never took place. So you can twist history any way you like, but in this case you've very clearly met your match.

* at this point I must add the following to elaborate:

My grandfather excelled at sports as a young man and represented Germany at the 1936 Olympics in the Field Handball discipline, where in the newly introduced game Germany became Gold Medal winners.

Many of that squad began their military service afterwards and were inducted into the SS, serving in the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, later to be the SS-Panzer Division Adolf Hitler. These men saw action in the war during the Austrian Occupation 1938, Czechoslovak Occupation 1939, Poland 1939, Western Campaign 1940, Balkan Campaign 1941, Eastern Front 1941-1942 Western Front 1943, Eastern Front 1943, Italian Campaign 1943, Eastern Front 1943, Western Front 1944 and finally the Eastern Front 1945. This was probably one of the most travelled regiments during the whole of World War 2.

However, prior to the Battle of Kursk, my grandfather was ordered to report for duty as camp guard in Poland, at Oswiecim (Auschwitz). Previously a well-decorated and obedient soldier, he refused his orders and was court-martialled.

He was not sentenced to death by firing squad, but served two years in a German penal battalion on the Eastern front, clearing mines and taking part on suicide missions, used as cannon fodder (so-called "Himmelfahrtskommando's").

He survived the war and settled on his farm in North-West Germany. Today he lives a quiet existence on a small patch of land in Western Ireland. The man is a true hero, and imparted to me a love of history.

December 24, 2004

Since this thread has disintegrated into mindless generalisation, I propose that the subject be closed. It has absolutly no relation to geocaching, either in the UK, Ireland or the US, and is now showing to be a gun/crime debate for either side of the Atlantic.

I have to agree, as I mentioned earlier the thread was designed to highlight culltural differences between UK and some US cachers - I think it has served that purpose. Thanks. Thread now closed.

Martin

Have You Read This Thread On Firearms!

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