Found A Different Kind Of Cache

November 30, 2004

Hi,

My kids and I were searching for a cache on Sunday at a California State Park. My daughter found a small brass box hidden at the base of a tree with a few rocks partially convering it. The box was sealed and had no markings on the outside, but you could hear something inside the box when you shook it.

The posted cache discription stated that it was supposed to be an ammo box. We put the brass box back and left. I e-mailed the persons who placed the cache and they said that the cache was an ammo box and that we had found something else and had no idea what it was.

I went back today and retreived the metal box and brought it home. My kids and I carefully pried it open the best we could, but ended up bending it out of shape.

Inside was a plastic bag with gray ashes and a thick card inside with a metal tag attached to it. The tag had the name of the company who did the cremation and the card had a last name and dates on it, but bearly legible.

Turns out it was the cremated remains of a one day old baby who died in 1999.

I will be contacting the crematorium as soon as possible. I don't want to placed the box back because it is too badly damaged and the local is a bad place since it is at the same site as the cache.

I feel bad for opening the box, but I didn't know what it was.

mouseful and kids

4.2k · November 30, 2004

Ok I gotta know - WHAT park? (I'm in CA, too)

2.5k · November 30, 2004

I hope that didn't freak the kids out too much.

November 30, 2004

That would have been way to creapy to find. I think I would have freaked out...

1.8k · November 30, 2004

Wow, that is quite an experience ... you'd think the parents would spread the ashes or bury the box instead of leaving a container that could easily be found by someone ...

November 30, 2004

Man, I NEVER find the cool stuff! <_<

1.5k · November 30, 2004

The question is...did you trade up???

*sheesh* I can't believe I just posted that.....*bad dobby, bad dobby!*

7.3k · November 30, 2004

I've heard of that happening before. It seems to be a fairly common practice.

November 30, 2004

I found the "empty" box of someones's remains that had been scattered once while caching but not a "full" box.

Why would the local be a bad place because it was the same place as a cache?

Did they place their "box" first?

Is a cache more important than someones child that died?

Have you ever visited a newborn intensive care unit?

I have for 3 months for my granddaughter! It was painfull and sad watching the other parents there. Amazingly most of the infants there survived.

I feel the pain and sorrow of the parents of the remains you found.

I am not trying to flame you just get you to think of how you would feel if the shoe was on the other foot.

Edited November 30, 2004 by ironman114

3.8k · November 30, 2004

Didn't I read a thread, a few months ago,

about a travel bug, an urn of ashes?

I know I didn't dream it. Please Markwell. <_<

November 30, 2004

Why would the local be a bad place because it was the same place as a cache?

Do you really think the ashes in an unmarked sealed box in a state park is an appropriate resting place? If a geocacher hadn't found it, who would have?

You would think if the parents wanted to place the baby there they would have scattered the ashes and not left the box intact.

very strange indeed.

2.6k · November 30, 2004

Didn't I read a thread, a few months ago,
about a travel bug, an urn of ashes?

I know I didn't dream it. Please Markwell.

I had a TB idea some time ago, and it brought up some markwells in the thread.

November 30, 2004

Why would the local be a bad place because it was the same place as a cache?
Do you really think the ashes in an unmarked sealed box in a state park is an appropriate resting place? If a geocacher hadn't found it, who would have?

You would think if the parents wanted to place the baby there they would have scattered the ashes and not left the box intact.

very strange indeed.

Did the cache have markings on the outside or was it like almost all that I have found not marked on the outside but a card inside identifying it?

While it may have not been the appropiate way to disburse ashes grieving parents may have been thinking as clearly as they usually do.

I found the empty box of someones remains discarded in the brush as trash but what are you supposed to do with them? Throwing it in the garbage seems so disrespectfull.

I thought about using the box as a cache container and several cachers said that was cool and to do it. But it still sits on a shelf as I haven't been able to get myself to use this container for such a purpose even after 6 months has passed.

November 30, 2004

Why would the local be a bad place because it was the same place as a cache?
Do you really think the ashes in an unmarked sealed box in a state park is an appropriate resting place? If a geocacher hadn't found it, who would have?

You would think if the parents wanted to place the baby there they would have scattered the ashes and not left the box intact.

very strange indeed.

Did the cache have markings on the outside or was it like almost all that I have found not marked on the outside but a card inside identifying it?

While it may have not been the appropiate way to disburse ashes grieving parents may have been thinking as clearly as they usually do.

I found the empty box of someones remains discarded in the brush as trash but what are you supposed to do with them? Throwing it in the garbage seems so disrespectfull.

I thought about using the box as a cache container and several cachers said that was cool and to do it. But it still sits on a shelf as I haven't been able to get myself to use this container for such a purpose even after 6 months has passed.

true, the parents may not have been thinking clearly. Thankfully somebody found the ashes and can and will probably follow through with restoring them.

November 30, 2004

Maybe the parents couldn't bring themselves to scatter the ashes - symbolic of breaking up the remains.

Perhaps they decided to place the container, with contents intact, in a place of significance to them, thinking that it would remain, undisturbed, for years to come.

The fact that it was found, accidentally, shouldn't detract from the fact that grieving parents placed it there for their own reasons.

My feeling? For what it's worth - move the cache, after placing the other container in something secure and replacing it where it was found, maybe with a note explaining why it was opened.

I can only imagine the pain and horror if the parents were regular visitors to the site and found that the original container was missing.

November 30, 2004

I can only imagine the pain and horror if the parents were regular visitors to the site and found that the original container was missing.

Good point.

I hadn't even thought of that yet.

November 30, 2004

I assume the cache was properly "permissioned." Were the ashes?

My grandfather's remains sat on a shelf in our garage for a while until my dad took them to places of significance and scattered them.

Having been involved with several funerals, I know (at leats in Indiana) some state parks get pretty leary about allowing you to do anything with any kind of human remain--cremated or not.

It sounds like it was a poor judgement by the (granted grieving, not necessarily overly rational, etc) parents. It was only a matter of time before the ashes were "muggled" as it were.

I think it was a good thing that someone responsible enough to do the right thing found them instead of someone else.

6.4k · November 30, 2004

Can't be that bad of a spot for the ashes; sounds like they went 4-5yrs without being disturbed.

The only reason they were found is because someone else thought it was a good, out of the way place to hide a cache.

Move the cache.

November 30, 2004

What Mopar said.

I don't know about anyone else, but I really feel strongly about this.

Edited November 30, 2004 by Azaruk

1.8k · November 30, 2004

What Mopar said.

I don't know about anyone else, but I really feel strongly about this.

Agreed ...

3k · November 30, 2004

Didn't I read a thread, a few months ago,
about a travel bug, an urn of ashes?

I know I didn't dream it. Please Markwell.

Since you asked to be Markwelled But read the page carefully.

November 30, 2004

THis is a very unfortunate event from having a child pass away and then finding the final resting place.....

However, almost everyone should know (more so us cachers) that if any item left in a public place has the chance of being taken.

Had he known what it was....I don't think anybody in their right mind woudl have disturbed it. And by reading his post, he feels really bad about taking it and probably has decided not to ever take any found container again.

Anothert reason not to take containers is that GC is not the only site that plays this game and if not that then maybe it was for a similiar, private game for a group of people.

Anyway, he is doing the right thing by trying to get it replaced and for information to us cachers as to what else is out there.

November 30, 2004

I don't think anyone blames Mouseful for anything.

It is, though, a terribly unfortunate sequence of events.

Mouseful is to be commended for trying to rectify the situation and I wish him every success.

6.4k · November 30, 2004

I don't think anyone blames Mouseful for anything.

It is, though, a terribly unfortunate sequence of events.

Mouseful is to be commended for trying to rectify the situation and I wish him every success.

Nope, no blame from here.

He's not the hider of the cache, so my remark about moving the cache isn't even directed at him. I do think he needs to do whatever it takes to rectify the situation now, and it sounds like he is.

2.3k · November 30, 2004

Very sad, very unfortunate. Now that I've read the thread, my mind keeps going back to the part about "what if they are regular visitors to the site..."

There's a reason they chose that site -- whether as an important site to them, or a pretty, lonely place, etc. But I vote the box be put back, if still in your possession, along with a laminated note "Please leave this box in peace, etc" for the inside. ANY parent will respect your wishes, i would hope -- and hopefully (very hopefully) any kids who find it would have at least a twinge of guilt and common sense and leave it alone.

4.7k · November 30, 2004

it's a bad locale for the cache because of the ash container. it was not known to be a bad locale until afterward.

it's a bad locale for cremains in a container. they should not be buried or hidden where there is a chance of accidental finding.

there are probably laws to govern the cremains. the cache should be moved, simply because of the unfortunate proximity. sometimes there's nothing else you can do.

6.5k · November 30, 2004

Didn't I read a thread, a few months ago,
about a travel bug, an urn of ashes?

I know I didn't dream it. Please Markwell.

There was another one out ther besides the one that Planet Markwelled. It passed through my RDU TB Hotel; and the dead relative died just after he retired so he never got to fulfil his adventurous dreams. One vial of ashes had already been up for a ride in a fighter jet, andother had been on a submarine ride. This TB also had a vial that just wanted to travel the world. I thoght I had it on my watch list but do not, and cannot find it from scrolling through the two years of logs on the cache page.

Back OT-it is a sad and complicated situation. Sounds like Mouseful is handling it well though. I wish them good thoughts.

I once told my mom that my wife and I had agreed to put part of my ashes in the pond in our back yard. That way whenever the recirculating pump was on I would be singing to her (our little joke since I have a terrible singing voice). Mom got very upset with this idea, since someday we might sell the house and she wouldn't be able to visit the pond. I pointed out that she isn't likely to outlive me, but you never know. A parent burying their child must be one of the saddest moments imaginable.

2.3k · November 30, 2004

I once told my mom that my wife and I had agreed to put part of my ashes in the pond in our back yard. That way whenever the recirculating pump was on I would be singing to her (our little joke since I have a terrible singing voice). Mom got very upset with this idea, since someday we might sell the house and she wouldn't be able to visit the pond. I pointed out that she isn't likely to outlive me, but you never know. A parent burying their child must be one of the saddest moments imaginable.

I keep threatening to add some sort of clause in my will that the kids have to eat a sponful of ashes every AM in their oatmeal.. <_<

November 30, 2004

we were going to dribble my grandma through the casinos in Reno. But then I realzed she' just be vaccuumed up and deposited in the Washoe County Landfill.

1.8k · November 30, 2004

we were going to dribble my grandma through the casinos in Reno. But then I realzed she' just be vaccuumed up and deposited in the Washoe County Landfill.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry ... :lol: It did make me chuckle a bit. :lol:

November 30, 2004

we were going to dribble my grandma through the casinos in Reno. But then I realzed she' just be vaccuumed up and deposited in the Washoe County Landfill.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry ... It did make me chuckle a bit.

well, clearpath, she would have thought it funny. She was a different one. But we did her good and put her in a beautiful place.

2k · November 30, 2004

ug.... not a nice find at all. Maybe I'm too empathetic, but I cannot even imagine how horrible it would be to carry the remains of a child to a quiet part of the woods and just leave them there.

Personally, if it was me:

I'd return the remains (hinding them very well and marking it as "do not remove: child's ashes"

Do up a memorial cache to children and post a note explaining the situation.

I know that's a little extreme, but the remains are of a child and that kind of gets to me.

November 30, 2004

My next door neighbor has placed his wifes ashes near a local hot spring. While placing her he found the ashes of a japanese woman who had loved the area as well. Now there is a letterbox in the same area as well. I'm thinking this area isn't the best place to put a cache but on the other hand, a considerately placed cache could help protect the remains from random discovery by geocachers looking to place a cache of their own. I'm torn.

Locally, a cacher we know found cremains hidden along a local walking path while searching for a puzzle cache. He turned them over to the police and they publicized that the placer may want to reclaim them. Not certain where it went from there.

Personally, my family is all spread out under the rose bushes at Grandma's house. I've had the honor of dispersing two relatives there. It is kinda fun to bring folks out and explain that most of the family is out in the garden.

Hopefully the finders will replace the container with either a new one or a fixed one and put the child back where it's parent's wanted it. It may not be there with permission, but if it wasn't hurting anyone, hide it better and let it stay.

-Jennifer

2.3k · November 30, 2004

Personally, my family is all spread out under the rose bushes at Grandma's house. I've had the honor of dispersing two relatives there. It is kinda fun to bring folks out and explain that most of the family is out in the garden.

That's wonderful! I like that idea!

November 30, 2004

What Mopar said.

I don't know about anyone else, but I really feel strongly about this.

Agreed ...

Agreed. There can be no doubt that the cache should be archived and relocated elsewhere, at least 0.1 mile away. The spot is not suitable for a leisure activity.

December 1, 2004

I contacted the crematorium today and they are going to make contact with the persons who arranged the cremation. They said it is quiet common for people to find these sorts of urns and metal tags and call them.

At first they said they are not legally responsible to make any contact with the responsible party, but after I explained the situation, they agreed to help.

The spot where this urn was located would be found easily by even a non-geocacher. We accidently damaged the urn when we opened it. It had no markings on it so I had no idea what it was. I couldn't see putting it back in the same spot, let alone in the damaged urn.

My call to the crematorium was to see what I could do. If they were reluctant to help, I was at least going to ask for a new urn or call another crematorium and get some assistance. But, they are indeed helping.

The manager called me back and asked me to bring the urn and remains to them and they will take care of it.

Believe me, just having this urn and trying to do what is right has caused some uneasiness. Especally waiting to hear back.

The spot where the urn was found is right by the parking lot near a path that leads to a lake. There are large boulders and trees to climb in and around at the site of the hidden cache and where the urn was. It would just be a matter of time before it would have been discovered before I did.

I pray that the person or persons who placed the urn will be greatful to have it back and re-locate it to a safer place. I really don't think the owner will be hurt by what happened; maybe embarrassed. I think the way it's being handled will ease any pain they may have in knowing my intentions and that the urn is being handled (agian) by the crematorium. They are the professionals and they should be able to deal with this better than me anyway.

mouseful and kids

2k · December 1, 2004

Good call.

Give your kids a hug, right?

December 1, 2004

If Mouseful hadn't have found the urn, it probably would have been desecrated by some uncaring individual. Way to go Mouseful for doing the right thing.

December 1, 2004

Thank you, Mouseful, for handling that situation so well. The way you did it was tactful and respectful. Hopefully the parents will either bury the urn in a place where it won't come back up to the surface or else scatter the ashes in their first spot.

When my partner and I "released" her Dad's ashes we were very careful NOT to keep them in the urn. Urns turn up again, either through frost-heave or digging animals or growing tree roots, etc. (We scattered them at the ocean and very carefully rinsed out the Glad bag they were packed in. Man, that was weird.... finding that the ashes were in the urn in a plain old plastic bag. One of those little realities of cremation, I guess.)

We chucked the bag in a garbage can. That also felt weird, so I can see why someone would just leave the container out after they scattered the ashes. It's a tough one...

December 1, 2004

Thank you, Mouseful, for handling that situation so well. The way you did it was tactful and respectful. Hopefully the parents will either bury the urn in a place where it won't come back up to the surface or else scatter the ashes in their first spot.

When my partner and I "released" her Dad's ashes we were very careful NOT to keep them in the urn. Urns turn up again, either through frost-heave or digging animals or growing tree roots, etc. (We scattered them at the ocean and very carefully rinsed out the Glad bag they were packed in. Man, that was weird.... finding that the ashes were in the urn in a plain old plastic bag. One of those little realities of cremation, I guess.)

We chucked the bag in a garbage can. That also felt weird, so I can see why someone would just leave the container out after they scattered the ashes. It's a tough one...

I found the empty, discarded plastic container that had someone's ashes near a cache I visited. I was suprised also to find that the ashes had been inside a plastic bag also.

I also felt weird putting the empty bag in the garbage.

Forgot to add:

Thanks to Mouseful for going the extra mile to make things right.

Edited December 1, 2004 by ironman114

1.8k · December 1, 2004

but after I explained the situation, they agreed to help.

You did the right thing ... I wish there were more people like you. :lol:

December 1, 2004

Mouseful has my total respect for going out of his way to sort this out.

You are a true human being - the highest praise I can give.

It's comforting to know that geocachers, as a community, have the compassion, dedication and common sense to do the right thing when faced with a tragically difficult situation.

I sincerely hope that the parents appreciate the circumstances surrounding the finding of the container and Mouseful's hard work in reducing the emotional impact and redressing the situation.

Let's all hope and pray that this tiny little soul can now rest undisturbed.

My respects to all concerned.

December 1, 2004

I also felt weird putting the empty bag in the garbage.

So now we have CIAO (cache in ash out)?

Sorry, the devil made me say that. I think the right thing was done in contacting the crematorium.

December 1, 2004

Mouseful, Thank you for caring so much. Th world indeed needs more caring people like you.

Ken

3.9k · December 1, 2004

Maybe the parents couldn't bring themselves to scatter the ashes - symbolic of breaking up the remains.

Perhaps they decided to place the container, with contents intact, in a place of significance to them, thinking that it would remain, undisturbed, for years to come.

The fact that it was found, accidentally, shouldn't detract from the fact that grieving parents placed it there for their own reasons.

My feeling? For what it's worth - move the cache, after placing the other container in something secure and replacing it where it was found, maybe with a note explaining why it was opened.

I can only imagine the pain and horror if the parents were regular visitors to the site and found that the original container was missing.

This is the most logical thing. I agree that the cache should be moved.

1k · December 1, 2004

...Agreed. There can be no doubt that the cache should be archived and relocated elsewhere, at least 0.1 mile away. The spot is not suitable for a leisure activity....

It's a park--it's a location INTENDED for leisure activity--NOT for the disposal of cremains (as they are now called).

I am sympathetic to the feelings of the parents, but honestly--it wasn't a good idea to put the ashes where they could be found.

Yeah, I would move the cache--just as a courtesy, but I don't feel there is an actual obligation.

As for me, I want my ashes mixed in a batch of concrete and poured in the big pothole at the end of my street--it's the only way I'm ever gonna get it filled.

December 2, 2004

Ash graves

People searching for our cache kept mentioning "ash graves." We had no idea what they were talking about and never got responses to our emails. We have traipsed this particular woods for years. Finally, while "cache maintaining" we found engraved markers, I believe 5 of them, with sticks in the shape of a rectangle for each one. The markers are for graves (I'm guessing) of family members who have died over the years with typical gravestone type messages on them. They are brass plaques on metal rods stuck in the ground. It is in a Michigan State Forest so I guess permission would be needed. Anyway, they are far enough away from our cache and are marked in a way so that they wouldn't be mistaken as a cache. I would also assume they are a little bit better buried than the OP box. The scenic pic was taken from the "graves," the cache is at the bottom of the hill.

Edit: To fix link...I hope!

Edited December 2, 2004 by Two Geeks and a GPS

2.5k · December 2, 2004

Didn't I read a thread, a few months ago,
about a travel bug, an urn of ashes?

I know I didn't dream it. Please Markwell.

Without reading further to see if you've been answered, that would be Uncle Elwyn

Found A Different Kind Of Cache

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